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View Full Version : Jermaine O’Neal, Is he a franchise player? Do the numbers lie???



DaSMASH
05-09-2007, 10:24 AM
Before you think I am bashing O'Neal be aware that all below is statistical fact. This was not ment to be a bash fest, but to enlighten those that believe he should stay an Indiana Pacer.

I for one think we held on to him two years to long.



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The important stats other than Points per game, when you get the most touches you better score the most points. This year Jermaine shot the ball 1,141 times, 3<SUP>rd</SUP> highest in his career. The year he averaged 24 points a game (2004-2005) he only played in 44 games.

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Games played this season……………………69……fifth on the team
Most ever in a season………………………..81 in the 2000-2001 season
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Minutes played per game…………………35.6……..Tied for first (w/ Dunleavy)
Most ever in a season………………….…37.6 in the 2001-2002 season
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FG percentage…………………………….43 % ….Eleventh on the Pacers this year
Best FG % as a Pacer…………………….48%…….in the 2002-2003 season
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More turnovers per game then blocked shots……..2.94 to 2.64
Least Turnrover season was in 2000-2001………..1.99
Best blocked shot avg . in a season, 2000-01……..2.8

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Only shot 447 Free throws this year at 76%
This past season was his best career FT %
O’Neal shot 510 Free throws in 2002-03 season while playing 37 minutes per game.

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Heres the point to all the stats.

O’neals game is what it is. No matter who the coach was, he was going to cater to O’Neal for obvious reasons. Jermaine is not a plyer that is going to lead you to an NBA championship by himself. He simply does not make anyone else better on his teams. His best years were with Ron Artest and Reggie Miller…Those two made Jermaine a better player, now thatr he has to lead its very obvious that he can not carry the franchise as a franchise player should. Look up Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Dwayne Wade, Shaq, Chauncey Billups…Those are actual Franchise players that step it up a level when their team needs it. Jermaine O’Neal has had two season to do that…He can’t, the wins and loses don't lie…plain and simple.
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So for all you "Jermaine is god" people…I hope that you enjoy rooting for him on his new team. I have grown tired of all of your excuses as to why he isn’t a better player. The one thing all of you do is complain about Murphy and Dunleavy and how bad they are, yet if O’Neal was the franchise player you think he is…they would be better players just because of him. The Pacers however do realize that they need to trade him now as his value is now diminishing. and the offers are going to be marginal just because of his numbers, especially the ones above. He can also opt out after next season.

He's going to become Pacer History soon.
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Ragnar
05-09-2007, 11:07 AM
Jermaine plays the way his coach asks him to play he is the consummate pro. Throwing him out because it took tptb this long to figure out Rick was not the right coach is not the thing to do

Roferr
05-09-2007, 11:26 AM
It seems to me that JO announced after the 2005 season that he was going to work on his fade-away jump shot for the upcoming season. This was the same off-season that Foster announced that he was working on his short-range jumper. Seems to me, JO got his way with RC's blessing and Foster never received the opportunity. You may be laughing but Foster had actually honed a pretty decent 10' jump shot but after JO's proclamation, Foster ditched it. JO proved to be woefully inadequate at his fade-away jumper from 10-15'. He couldn't have hit much more than 25-30%. It took all his dinks and dunks to get his shooting pct. up to about 8-10% lower than a good post man.

JO has never been a franchise player in the true sense of the meaning. He may have been our franchise player because of being the best player but he falls well short of the truly elite.

I don't think we will ever climb the mountain again with him as our leader. We should trade him while his value is still reasonably high.

Arcadian
05-09-2007, 02:12 PM
Jermaine is not a player that is going to lead you to an NBA championship by himself....Look up Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Dwayne Wade, Shaq, Chauncey Billups…Those are actual Franchise players that step it up a level when their team needs it.

Which of those players can lead you to a championship by themselves?

Every single one of those players won championships with other all Stars--Kobe/Shaq, Shaq/Wade, Duncan/Robinson/Parker/Manu, Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton.

Garnett missed the playoffs and hasn't sniffed a championship.

Nash hasn't won either and if they do this year it will be with two other all stars on his team.

I get that you think JO is overrated and will be traded.

SoupIsGood
05-09-2007, 03:34 PM
Which of those players can lead you to a championship by themselves?

Every single one of those players won championships with other all Stars--Kobe/Shaq, Shaq/Wade, Duncan/Robinson/Parker/Manu, Billups/Wallace/Wallace/Hamilton.

Garnett missed the playoffs and hasn't sniffed a championship.

Nash hasn't won either and if they do this year it will be with two other all stars on his team.

I get that you think JO is overrated and will be traded.

Thank you!

You could replace JO w/ Kobe, and if our team didn't win the championship year after year, DaSMASH would be on here every day telling us how Kobe is too selfish to ever be a true franchise player.

Fact is no one can do it by themselves. AND JO is a great player when he's healthy - a good-to-very-good rebounder and scorer, and great defender. Now, if you want to say he's not healthy enough, that's cool I guess - but then I'm going to remind you that neither is Baron Davis. Like Jay always says, it's about being healthy at the right time (heading into the playoffs).

Keep JO.

FlavaDave
05-09-2007, 03:49 PM
How many players in the league average more blocks than turnovers? Tim Duncan didn't (2.4/2.8). Elton Brand didn't (2.2/2.5).

EDIT: Ben Wallace did, but he is basically banned from dribbling the basketball.

Roaming Gnome
05-09-2007, 04:03 PM
Smash, what's your point? Are you advocating that the Pacers are better off just getting rid of O'neal no matter the compensation? I believe most here would accept a deal for O'neal as long as we don't get fleeced in the deal.

I'm just not convinced that the Pacers are working that hard to move him despite what some of you think. I truely believe if Carlisle would have survived this season...J.O. would be as good as traded, but since Rick is not part of the equation...I can see managment standing pat on Jermaine.

ABADays
05-09-2007, 04:13 PM
I would have to say JO is the PACERS franchise player. But through my definition of what a franchise player should be - no he isn't.

Since86
05-09-2007, 04:16 PM
Top 10 Block leaders for 2006-2007

Marcus Camby 3.3blks : 1.74TOs
Josh Smith 2.88blks : 3.15 TOs
JO 2.64blks : 2.94 TOs
Emeka Okafor 2.57blks : 1.66 TOs
TD 2.4blks : 2.8 TOs
Alonzo Mourning 2.31blks : 1.68 TOs
Elton Brand 2.24blks : 2.53 TOs
Pau Gasol 2.14blks : 2.75 TOs
AK47 2.06blks : 1.93 TOs
Ben Wallace 2.03 blks : 1.31 TOs

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbablocks&sort=blks&order=true&league=nba&avg=pg&qual=true&seasontype=2&pos=all&season=2007

It's split half and half for the top ten, I would think that the % for having more blocks than TOs a game would start dropping there after.

I fail to see the point though. Care to enlighten?

EDIT: Nevermind, I missed DaSmash's line about it until SIG pointed it out.

naptown
05-09-2007, 04:18 PM
JO is a very good player. He is not a put a team on his back franchise player. Never will be.

Coop
05-09-2007, 04:23 PM
On top of that, the guys that did have more blocks than turnovers per game were players that really don't have much of a role in their teams' offense. For as much as Jermaine has the ball in his hands, I'm not too upset with his turnovers. More often than not, he makes up for it on the defensive side of the ball.

Back to the original argument. No, JO is not a guy that will carry a team single-handedly. But as we saw when he played with RonRon and Reg, he can be a big piece of the puzzle to a very good team. Over the past couple weeks I've been thinking about whether or not we should rebuild, or just retool. With Walsh and Bird at the helm, the chances are we will just be retooling (especially with the addition of a new coach).

I would like to see us try to put a package together that would pair up JO and someone like Pierce. Together, those two would give us a lot of what we've lacked the last couple years. Pierce can hit the outside shot, create, and defend the opposing teams best perimeter player at the same time. Not to mention both these guys are hungry. They're in the middle of their prime and they are starting to realize that winning is what's important. If you take those two, and put a formidable cast around them, they could take you a long way.

After the season ended, I was all for throwing in the towel and starting over, but if we can bring in a big-time player to play with Jermaine, I think we should give it another shot.

SoupIsGood
05-09-2007, 04:39 PM
About this:



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More turnovers per game then blocked shots??..2.94 to 2.64
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This season, Jermaine was #3 in BPG and #19 in TOPG - which means that the numbers aren't lying, but also aren't helping to prove DaSMASH's point in this case.

Arcadian
05-09-2007, 04:51 PM
Not that it adds to the discussion but I really like the phrase "statistical fact."

Kegboy
05-09-2007, 05:09 PM
43 % ...Eleventh on the Pacers this year

Make all the excuses you want, that's just pitiful.

Coop
05-09-2007, 05:22 PM
Well when the other team doesn't have to guard anyone else, it's pretty believable...

Roy Munson
05-09-2007, 05:33 PM
I would have to say JO is the PACERS franchise player. But through my definition of what a franchise player should be - no he isn't.

Even at his best he never elevated his teammates to the point that I would think of him as a franchise player -- whatever that is. For about the 500th time, I feel that JO is horribly overrated and the Pacers stuck with him for two seasons too long.

Had they gotten rid of him two summers ago, as I advocated to the irritation of many, they'd be so much better off now. His value was higher then, and they could have gotten a premier player in return, and a good draft choice that could have turned into a premier player.

Kegboy
05-09-2007, 05:49 PM
Well when the other team doesn't have to guard anyone else, it's pretty believable...

Not when that's 11th on the team. Logic dictates there are better options, especially if they're not guarded.

BlueNGold
05-09-2007, 06:04 PM
If healthy, JO is about #20 in the league. He is a legit franchise player, but only an average one. For example, just looking at bigs, he is better than Gasol and Curry, but not better than players like Garnett, D. Howard, Yao and Duncan. It is arguable whether he is as good as Bosh, Stoudemire, among a few others. This does not count the Lebrons, Dwades and Mellos which send JO down to #20.

If healthy, he will keep the team somewhere around .500 with a decent supporting cast. Due to his injury history, his value is lower...probably around #35 in the league. Accordingly, it makes him barely an adequate franchise player. The team needs to deal him for a number of reasons. Among them is that he could pull a Bender on us and decide he wants his health since he has enough money. He is not going to improve from here on out and might walk sometime to win a championship. I think his value will never be higher.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
05-09-2007, 06:14 PM
Not that I want JO around next season or anything, but John Stockton himself couldnt have made this joke of a team any better, so dont get mad at JO for TPTB putting a terrible team on the court the last few seasons. If it wasnt for JO, we'd be winning as many games as the Hawks.

Moses
05-09-2007, 06:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't throw Jermaine under the bus when we had a team as awful as this years team. Get some players around JO who can make shots consistently, then I will get pissed at JO about his shooting percentages. Sure, he isn't the perfect franchise player and he does make mistakes...but when you put players around him who can't shoot, play defense, or create their own shots..this is exactly what happens. Teams bog down on JO and keep 2 guys on him or near him at all times so he can't work inside the paint.

The only knocks I have on JO are that he is injury prone, and takes to many jump shots..but the latter probably had more to do with the fact that he was injured. So in conclusion, don't prematurely trade your franchise player until you get a good team around him. We need someone to step up and consistently make 3's and we need a guy who can create his own shot besides JO and Tinsley. Or at the very least, make our current scrub starters learn to play some defense.

PR07
05-09-2007, 07:09 PM
One really good player can't do it by himself. No, maybe JO is not a franchise player, but he's a guy that if you surround with another really good player (like Artest was), he can bring your team a lot of success. I think the problems we've had as of late is the inability to find that #2 guy. Jackson should've never been in that role, Granger is not a pure enough scorer yet, and the other guys are way too inconsistent (Dunleavy, Tinsley, Murphy, Daniels, etc.).

How many sure-fire franchise players are there really in this game right now?

-LeBron
-Wade
-Carmello
-Kobe
-D. Howard
-Duncan
-Garnett
-Nash

Then there is iffy people like

-Yao
-Chris Bosh
-Jermaine O'Neal
-Paul Pierce
-Tracy McGrady
-Arenas
-Dirk
-Brand
-Gasol

So, not being a "franchise" player is not necessarily a bad thing.

tdubb03
05-09-2007, 07:58 PM
At this point, I'm content with trading JO. Obviously it'd be a step back. But no one's going to relieve our salary cap woes. Dunleavy may be somehow possible to trade, but not Murphy. He's got one of the worst deals in the league. JO and Granger are the only players we have who'd be capable of getting us a legitimate player in return for. And with what I've seen of Shawne Williams, I'm not near as gung ho about keeping Granger forever as I once was.

Naptown_Seth
05-10-2007, 11:44 AM
Top 10 Block leaders for 2006-2007

Marcus Camby 3.3blks : 1.74TOs
Josh Smith 2.88blks : 3.15 TOs
JO 2.64blks : 2.94 TOs
Emeka Okafor 2.57blks : 1.66 TOs
TD 2.4blks : 2.8 TOs
Alonzo Mourning 2.31blks : 1.68 TOs
Elton Brand 2.24blks : 2.53 TOs
Pau Gasol 2.14blks : 2.75 TOs
AK47 2.06blks : 1.93 TOs
Ben Wallace 2.03 blks : 1.31 TOs

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbablocks&sort=blks&order=true&league=nba&avg=pg&qual=true&seasontype=2&pos=all&season=2007

It's split half and half for the top ten, I would think that the % for having more blocks than TOs a game would start dropping there after.

I fail to see the point though. Care to enlighten?

EDIT: Nevermind, I missed DaSmash's line about it until SIG pointed it out.
And to add to that list we should consider FGAs per and perhaps Assists to indicate touches that created possible turnover situations. That puts AK and Okafur as special, but none of the others stand out (and those 2 had some pretty good assist PGs running the show, Utah's whole team are good passers in fact).

On top of that Steve Nash has less steals+blocks than he does turnovers...guess Nash isn't a franchise guy either.

Before you (Smash) bring a stat at least have some sense of scope and purpose to it, it makes a lot bigger impact than some odd, random fact with zero context.



Now his FG% - that's an issue for the amount of touches he gets. His turnover to FGA ratio might not be good, I honestly haven't checked myself. Those are the things that carry weight. Trying to discount blocks with turnovers is nonsensical.

NuffSaid
05-10-2007, 06:08 PM
Voice of reason here...

It's true, JO will never be the type of player who can take over a game night after night, placing the team on his shoulders and winning a championship. Then again, if anyone is asking him to do so, well, you're just not based in reality. As Arcadian points out, it generally takes two or more front-runners to "lead" the way. Clearly, the Pacers haven't had that #2 players since Reggie retired. And even before that the team has been beset by one controversy after another since...well, you know when...not to mention injuries. But we've heard it all before. Let's not go back into it.

Fact is, the numbers presented by DaSmash actually paint a pretty good picture of just how consistent JO has been over the years. No, his statistics aren't up there were they were between 2000-2003, but that was 4-7 yrs ago. Age does catch up to you eventually. But it's amazing to me to see that he's still producting at near when he was at the top of his game. Personally, I'd be hard pressed not to classify last season as his best overall year. Why? Because he was able to put together a "complete" season, meaning he competed on both sides of the ball whereas normally he's viewed as just another offensive low-post threat. I'm certainly not going to bash the guy. After all, how many other PF's/Center do you know command a double-team damned near every game? I haven't watched ever Spurs or T-Wolves game, but I'm pretty confident both didn't have to endure that kind of on-the-court attention as often.

The point here is JO remains a vital part of this team. While there are parts of his game that needs to improve, I wouldn't want to see the Pacers play against him. The other side of the equation, however, is simply for him to mature a little bit more, i.e., not be soo quick to think that being the "franchise player" means every facet of the team's game plan must come through oneself. Sometimes, the best thing a leader can do is recognize his shortcomings and become an advocate to others. He'll learn soon enough that often times its better to be humble than to be too stalwart.