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Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

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  • #1

    Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

    As we bring down the curtain on this season, Ive got a huge amount of random thoughts bouncing in my head. A huge rambling post making up for lost PD time seems to be in order.....feel free to comment on any or all of my rantings, some of this I just need to get off my chest.

    Among the worst things a huge organization can have is a lack of a plan. The Pacers have decidely fallen in a REACTIVE mode lately, making moves seemingly at random with no long term vision or goal. It seems like everything that happens to us seems to take our organization by surprise, and the lack of a coherant philosophy and seeing problems before they occur is crippling us not only in the present but in the future as well. This seems to a recent phenomena in my view...I actually think the Pacers planned for the future very well for a huge number of years, but we seem to have lost our way and our vision for what we want to be, and how we want to achieve it.

    As someone with a coaching background, Ive been one of Rick Carlisle's biggest defenders. I still believe that with the right type of roster and team that he is a fine coach, and I believe he is a fine man and classy individual. However, in a very trying season as the problems continued to mount, our team was desperately crying out for leadership and passion and a clear direction, and RC failed in the biggest coaching crisis of his career to deliver. Instead, he went into a shell, staying quiet and reserved, fiddling while the titanic continued to sink. In many situations, a firm and steady hand ends up being the best course, but he clearly proved incapable of reading the situation and adjusting his persona and style to the problems at hand. Lack of leadership vocally or by example by RC was a big disappointment for me.

    He also seems stuck in older ideas, and seems too loyal to certain players, both in the playing time and treatment they recieve, and in the way they are used. Its a lack of foresight, a lack of dynamic and new thinking, and a tendency of all leaders of big groups to show too much loyalty to people theyve had success with. Going back to Tinsley a couple of games ago with the entire season on the brink, one game after losing another game by stubbornly feeding an injured and ineffective JO the ball down the stretch when he clearly couldnt handle that responsibility I believe has shown me finally the limitations in RC's thinking that some of you have mentioned all along. Reluctantly and with some regret, I now believe that we've gone as far as Rick Carlisle will take us, and its time for him to go.

    The Pacers as an entire organization have shown the same lack of foresight and planning for the future and inability to adjust well that RC personified. I wonder if this summer any new and dynamic thinking about anything will happen. I firmly believe this is a crossroad for our entire franchise this summer, and possibly our entire chances for long term success in the next decade may be set by the moves made in the next 150 days. Here are a few outside the box ideas/questions I want to lay out, just to wonder if the Pacers will do the expected typical things or will perhaps get out of their comfort zone to solve some of their issues:

    1. Front office....instead of the expected move of Donnie retiring and being replaced by Bird, I wonder if the real power in the organization will be given to David Morway instead. David has the long term experience working for the Pacers longer than Larry, and while not being the public name or face of the franchise, its his business savvy both in helping plan and formulate Conseco Fieldhouse and in manipulating the cap that has been behind the scenes for years. I wonder if we wouldnt be better off with him at the helm.

    2. Coaching. I firmly now believe that RC will probably need to be replaced. It would be better to do it now, a hundred times better, than to wait until we have a slow start and then fire him at Thanksgiving or Christmas. Again, whoever runs our franchise needs to think ahead a few months or years, and not just for tomorrow or the next day. I also wonder that instead of considering the failed route of going to a college coach (Kruger, Calipari, Pitino, a million other failures) or of going to a retread failed coach from another franchise (Jim Obrien, Chris Ford, Paul Silas, Larry Brown, Alvin Gentry, etc etc)....I wonder if there isnt a better idea. Clearly, some of the assistants with the NBA Id consider are Donn Nelson, Marc Iavaroni, and others, but I wonder if our Pacers would consider hiring one of the elite coaches from overseas in Europe or Greece, of which there a few very talented, smart, and dynamic new thinkers of the game. This was a great training ground for Mike D'Antoni, and I wonder if our European posters might have a candidate for us in mind. There are many great international minds out there that would be a much better fit than recycling someone who has failed at 3 other stops.

    3. Roster moves. Having a true "team" concept is a great ideal, but unfortunately the demands of the market place almost make it impossible. The Pacers have too many "rotation" type guys making too much money, as we all are too aware. We need to figure out a way to have maybe 2 very high paid guys, and fill our roster out with more cost efficient players. We also have too many guys who are too repetitive and similar for what they produce. We need to try and bunch guys like Daniels, Dunleavy, Murphy, Foster, and Tinsley together and try and get one clear dynamic player somehow someway.

    Speaking of which, here is another point: The days of being a championship team with your dominant and best player playing on the low block are over. The game and its rules have evolved into a more free flowing and energetic game, slashing and driving and creating movement in the defense. We need to get out of the stone age and quit playing that style. I think that the Pacers had that type of vision, but gave up on it and went back to old ideas way too early this season. I dont know who is at fault for that for sure, but the days of being able to win by slowing the pace and dumping the ball to Jermaine are over, no matter who gets their feelings hurt. I think its clear that on the ideal team your best player needs to play on the perimeter, be able to handle the ball and create for himself and others.

    The conventional wisdom either seems to be trade JO, or to keep JO and rebuild around him......thats all anyone seems to want to debate. But what if we have the foresight to try a 3rd way, which would be to keep JO but to decidely NOT BUILD AROUND HIM. In other words, base your way to play and your complimentary players not to compliment JO but to compliment either Granger or Shawne Williams, who are the only players besides JO who have that type of long term potential. I highly highly question the wisdom of keeping these 2 players together on the same roster long term unless you think Granger, Williams, and JO can all play together at the same time somehow.

    IF you go with my way of thinking and find yourself nodding your head in the affirmitive at all, try this one on for size: The single easiest way we can improve our team and shed some of the bloated contracts and get a dynamic backcourt guy is to INCLUDE GRANGER in a deal. Are you willing to think outside the box enough to go for that? Are the Pacers willing to make a move like that? If not, are you willing to include Shawn Williams instead? I actually view Shawne as having much more long term potential, and he hits free agency later than Granger, and he is younger.....I think if you really think about it, if the Pacers get the right deal in place you have to think ahead a bit and cash out Danny while you still can. Ill work on some example deals later when I have time.

    Lastly, can a true championship team clearly win with such limited players like Jeff Foster and Troy Murphy playing big minutes? I dont think they can....and as the game evolves and becomes faster and more free flowing the slowness of Murphy and lack of offensive skill from Foster I think really hinder you in terms of how you have to adjust your style and play when either of these guys are in the game.

    Like I thought last summer when we signed Harrington, I think we have to adapt to the times and realize that playing a bigger bodied slower guy along side JO is a thing of the past. Yes we may have to adapt, yes we may lose some rebounding, but I think the way you need to think of JO is a much smaller version of Shaquille. Along with that, I think JO needs to bulk up this summer to play his minutes at the 5, and if he doesnt like it he can lump it. I know for a fact RC couldnt make that common sense move happen, he seemed to lack the determination, people skills, charisma, whatever to get JO to accept that role....the next guy in charge needs to just demand that and make it happen, and if its hurts JO's feelings then too bad. Along with gaining some weight, I think JO probably needs to play fewer minutes, cut back to somewhere around 30-32 minutes per game in order to save his knees. JO may not be that old but he has lots of miles on the odometer.

    4. Marketing and promotion. The Pacers are unpopular even among their own fan base, and have become second in this state to the Colts. Its time to quit trying stupid slogans and giving away tickets, its time to think again outside the box. How about having training camp at one of the college campuses? How about having training camp workouts and practices open to the public like the Colts do? How about having a "barnstorming tour" around the state in September or October playing scrimmages in Fort Wayne, South Bend, Washington, Evansville, New Albany, Bedford, Seymour, Anderson, New Castle, Lafayette, Bloomington, Terre Haute, etc etc. The Pacers ought to take a page from the governor and make a tour of the state, meeting fans in every county. There ought to be a fan convention in one of the hotels in the summer like the Cubs do each winter, where fans can ask questions of the front office and players. There ought to be tours of Conseco, where fans can see the locker rooms, weight rooms, front offices, etc etc. The coaches radio show ought to be better and more exciting and simulcast on WB4 or Fox 59 or some other channel. There are a million other ideas out there that other, more open and more forward thinking businesses do every day....its time the Pacers become a little more proactive and progressive and open.

    Basically, what I am trying to say is that the franchise is in a condition that Im not sure that typical solutions will solve its problems. I think we need a very dynamic and aggressive approach this summer, and a willingness to not just try the same old things. Its not impossible....it can be done. The question is, do we have the people in place to make things happen, to achieve effective change?

    When we ask ourselves 150 days from now if we are a better franchise than we are today, its going to be important to remember John Wooden's famous axiom :" Do not mistake activity for achievement."

    As always, these are just my opinions.....

    Tbird
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

    I'm giving you a standing ovation for that.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

      Honest to God I was going to do a huge end of the season odd thoughts post, but you just rendered everything I would have said academic.

      This may very well be the post of the year if not maybe the best post in the history of pacers forums.

      I agree with almost every single word you just wrote.

      In the words of the great Stan Lee

      Excellsior!!!!!


      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

        A lot of great suggestions!

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

          Nice read, thanks. Someone should really give you, your own column.
          No matter how much success Larry Bird attains in Indiana he'll never top that first command to fire Thomas. -Peter Vecsey. NY Post 12/4/07

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

            Loved the post. Especially the thoughts about Morway and building around JO as a number two guy.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              Honest to God I was going to do a huge end of the season odd thoughts post, but you just rendered everything I would have said academic.

              This may very well be the post of the year if not maybe the best post in the history of pacers forums.

              I agree with almost every single word you just wrote.

              In the words of the great Stan Lee

              Excellsior!!!!!
              Peck, TBird's post was outstanding as usual, but I'm hoping for at least a 10-page Odd Thoughts thread to provide the necessary catharsis from this season. In the likely event that we miss out on the draft, maybe make it 15 pages to get us through to the trade season.
              "I mean, you'd walk into our dressing room and run into Mel Daniels holding a .45 -- it makes you wonder."

              Bob Netolicky

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                Honest to God I was going to do a huge end of the season odd thoughts post, but you just rendered everything I would have said academic.

                This may very well be the post of the year if not maybe the best post in the history of pacers forums.

                I agree with almost every single word you just wrote.

                In the words of the great Stan Lee

                Excellsior!!!!!

                Thank you for the kind words, not just the above by Peck but by all the rest as well.

                Just for the fun of it, Ill give a small preview about some other things Im thinking of writing about sometime soon, and while Im at it, feel free to private message me if you have anything you want me to ramble on about endlessly.

                1. A review of my "masterplan" for last off season, which I wrote before I joined PD. Of course, we didnt do any of it, but I think itll be fun to review it with all of you and compare what I wanted to do last summer with what we actually did, just to see which outcome we might have liked better. I can tell you that I also had a major trade in mind made BEFORE the season, and that our point guard situation wouldve been a bit different.

                2. Something about the Pacers current ownership, whether they deserve any blame for this season, whether they are too "old school" in their thinking, and who might possible replace the Simon's as owners someday (The Simons are in their 70's after all).

                3. Something about new school statistical analysis vs the old way of looking at the numbers, and how the Mavs, among others, are utilizing this type of number crunching, while other more conservative teams are not.

                4. Whatever else happens to pop into my head.

                Tbird

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                  Let me start out by saying I love and appreciate your posts T-Bird. You obviously put a lot of thought into them and make them worth reading.
                  Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                  Like I thought last summer when we signed Harrington, I think we have to adapt to the times and realize that playing a bigger bodied slower guy along side JO is a thing of the past. Yes we may have to adapt, yes we may lose some rebounding, but I think the way you need to think of JO is a much smaller version of Shaquille. Along with that, I think JO needs to bulk up this summer to play his minutes at the 5, and if he doesnt like it he can lump it. I know for a fact RC couldnt make that common sense move happen, he seemed to lack the determination, people skills, charisma, whatever to get JO to accept that role....the next guy in charge needs to just demand that and make it happen, and if its hurts JO's feelings then too bad. Along with gaining some weight, I think JO probably needs to play fewer minutes, cut back to somewhere around 30-32 minutes per game in order to save his knees. JO may not be that old but he has lots of miles on the odometer.
                  I also think JO needs to play the 5, but if we want to get faster (like you mentioned earlier) I would rather see him develop more speed and maybe slim down a bit. I know this may not be possible with his knee problems but it is worth a shot.
                  Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                  There ought to be tours of Conseco, where fans can see the locker rooms, weight rooms, front offices, etc etc.
                  I just wanted to throw in that this summer in June, the Pacers are letting me take a tour of Conseco (I am pretty sure front office is included) for my Graduation Project....so they are obviously starting to do something right.
                  I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                    As a member of a message board, my sole purpose here is to argue. Normally, I would do some research and try to knock you down a notch or two( maybe even make something up or claim Jack has a higher b-ball IQ than MDJ). Usually, when I completely agree with something someone else has posted, I think to myself " Hmm, damn straight". This particluar post is riveting in the sense that you don't just say management hasn't used foresight or imagination, but you have actually taken it upon yourself to use foresight and imagination to come up with splendid ideas. You've also written it in such a commanding and convincing fashion. This is the kind of material that should be printed off by every member of PD, with your name on it, signed by the member, tri-folded, inserted into an envelope and mailed directly to whoever the hell is in charge down there.

                    In a word, EXCELLENT.
                    I'm in these bands
                    The Humans
                    Dr. Goldfoot
                    The Bar Brawlers
                    ME

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                      TBird...
                      I just don't think JO would accept a role like that. In fact, I think the team tried something similar and it only took him 8 games to balk.

                      The thing is (in my mind) if we went away from JO and didn't try to justify his contract with his minutes and role on the court, let alone bend over backwards for him, it would actually open the game up for him. He'd probably shoot a better percentage and he'd be such a threat that he'd finally make others around him better.

                      -Bball
                      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                      ------

                      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                      -John Wooden

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                        Originally posted by Bball View Post
                        TBird...
                        I just don't think JO would accept a role like that. In fact, I think the team tried something similar and it only took him 8 games to balk.

                        The thing is (in my mind) if we went away from JO and didn't try to justify his contract with his minutes and role on the court, let alone bend over backwards for him, it would actually open the game up for him. He'd probably shoot a better percentage and he'd be such a threat that he'd finally make others around him better.

                        -Bball
                        Wow...we brought Al in as a primary threat? JO has been our best player for a looooong time. If he had another player who can help him and take over games on the perimeter, I think he would be willing to accept that role.

                        As for the second part, isn't that exactly what Tbird was getting at?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                          Originally posted by rexnom View Post
                          Wow...we brought Al in as a primary threat? JO has been our best player for a looooong time. If he had another player who can help him and take over games on the perimeter, I think he would be willing to accept that role.
                          We tried to play in a way that didn't focus so much on JO and opened things up somewhat on the floor and gave others a more prominent role in the offense. But JO balked because he didn't get the ball where he wanted it. Which meant, new system be damned, JO was worried about 'his' first and foremost.

                          There won't be anyone creating on the perimeter as long as JO is the primary focal point. And he's not good enough or (apparently) durable enough to be the primary focal point anyway.

                          Maybe a new coach could change that.

                          As for the second part, isn't that exactly what Tbird was getting at?
                          Yes it is. I'm agreeing with T-bird and just expanding on what he didn't say (if I read him correctly).

                          -Bball
                          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                          ------

                          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                          -John Wooden

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                            Originally posted by Bball View Post
                            We tried to play in a way that didn't focus so much on JO and opened things up somewhat on the floor and gave others a more prominent role in the offense. But JO balked because he didn't get the ball where he wanted it. Which meant, new system be damned, JO was worried about 'his' first and foremost.

                            There won't be anyone creating on the perimeter as long as JO is the primary focal point. And he's not good enough or (apparently) durable enough to be the primary focal point anyway.

                            Maybe a new coach could change that.
                            While I understand your point, I think it's hard to not have your best and most talented player not be your go-to guy/focal point. If we had a player who was more talented offensively (especially on the perimeter) than JO, things could be different. I think things could really work then. If we can't achieve that through trades then JO probably does not to go so we can rebuild fully. Otherwise, I think JO could very well fit in with our future plans.

                            Maybe we've looking at this the wrong way all along. Like Phoenix when they had Marion and Stoudamire but not Nash, the big guys were not of poor quality. Marion and Stoudamire are great all-stars, superstar players even. But Phoenix couldn't build around them. Maybe we just can't built around JO, even though he is a franchise guy and a perennial all-star. He just needs someone else to help create on the perimeter. Right now we have Marquis Daniels (who helps the Pacers exponentially when he plays) and Jamaal Tinsley ()as our creators. We need something more substantial there. Tbird got it right here. I'm amazed we haven't bounced this around more. It's not an insult to JO...it's just tough to compete without another star level player creating on the perimeter.
                            Originally posted by Bball View Post
                            Yes it is. I'm agreeing with T-bird and just expanding on what he didn't say (if I read him correctly).

                            -Bball
                            Oh, well then. Sorry if I misunderstood.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tbird opinions: Lack of imagination and foresight killed us, and ideas for 2008

                              Brilliant Mr. Tbird... Brilliant!

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