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Unclebuck
05-19-2004, 09:29 AM
I think it is between three players. J.O., Tinsley, or Artest. Reggie had his moments, Jeff had a great game #5, but it has to be betwen J.O. Tins, and Ronnie.

Yes I know every game should carry equal weight, but the key game was obviously game #6, road game, deciding game......so the MVP has to be Ron Artest.

He shot poorly in game #2 or was that game #3, one of the games he was 4 of 18, sure his defense was not as vital in this series because he was not guarding a primary scorer, Butler is good but he scores off plays for Odom, Wade or even Eddie Jones.

Ron rebounded well in this series.


Case for J.O. He got so much of the Heats defensive attention that it opened things up for others. he distorted the Heat's entire defense.

Case for Tinsley. There were times during the series where his playmaking ability was breathtaking. What I liked best is he created in the halfcourt, he got into the lane.

TheSauceMaster
05-19-2004, 09:41 AM
I agree Ron Artest is the MVP and I believe that was game #3 UB where ron went 4-18

I can't discredit what JO and Tins did ethier , I'll admit I wasn't a tinsley fan and never have been , but this guy is winning me over quickly and maybe that's why I am so hard on poor AJ sometimes :laugh: :laugh:

PaceBalls
05-19-2004, 10:04 AM
ya, it's gotta be Ron. He so dramatically changes the game. I think he is gonna be the one to lead the pacers to glory. The quotes from him earlier this year sum it up, when everyone was still doubting him early in the season, remember most people wanted him traded in the offseason, cause he was a "cancer" He said "I haven't accomplished nothing so far.. I havent led the Pacers to a championship yet.." YET.

GO RON kick their asses!

ChicagoJ
05-19-2004, 12:59 PM
The MVP of the series was JO. He was dominant throughout. Other players had great games from time-to-time, but JO's consistent dominance in the low post made it all possible.

But I want to talk about Artest's performance in a close-out game.

Very, very impressive.

He showed some true character tonight - frankly he accomplished more of his "burying the old reputation" stuff last night than he had all season (when the stakes were lower.)

I mean, that was a big-time performance. It felt like Game #7 of the 1995 EC Semis, when Dale Davis took off the shoulder brace and just *willed* us to victory in The Garden. It was Ron Artest's mental toughness that led us to victory in a clenching playoff game. I never thought I'd say that.

Hicks
05-19-2004, 01:08 PM
The MVP of the series was JO. He was dominant throughout. Other players had great games from time-to-time, but JO's consistent dominance in the low post made it all possible.

But I want to talk about Artest's performance in a close-out game.

Very, very impressive.

He showed some true character tonight - frankly he accomplished more of his "burying the old reputation" stuff last night than he had all season (when the stakes were lower.)

I mean, that was a big-time performance. It felt like Game #7 of the 1995 EC Semis, when Dale Davis took off the shoulder brace and just *willed* us to victory in The Garden. It was Ron Artest's mental toughness that led us to victory in a clenching playoff game. I never thought I'd say that.

I hear that. I was reading the Pacers.com Headline that read "Artest leads Pacers to Eastern Conference Finals", and just thought "OH, to have a time machine and post THAT headline on the forums back in August."

Arcadian
05-19-2004, 01:10 PM
It had to be AJ. Those two free throws were clutch. The equivlant of Byron Scott's 3 against the Magic.

Runner up for the series I'd go with JO. He was the one who dictated how the Heat played us.

Ron though did have the best preformance with game 6 and upped his stock the most. I was just kidding about the AJ thing.

sweabs
05-19-2004, 01:36 PM
It had to be AJ. Those two free throws were clutch.

Yeah they were clutch and I have a lot of respect for AJ - but c'mon...that doesn't give him MVP for the SERIES.

TheSauceMaster
05-19-2004, 01:40 PM
I was just kidding about the AJ thing.

you didn't read his whole post ron_artest23 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

ROCislandWarrior
05-19-2004, 01:45 PM
The MVP of the series was JO. He was dominant throughout. Other players had great games from time-to-time, but JO's consistent dominance in the low post made it all possible.

But I want to talk about Artest's performance in a close-out game.

Very, very impressive.

He showed some true character tonight - frankly he accomplished more of his "burying the old reputation" stuff last night than he had all season (when the stakes were lower.)

I mean, that was a big-time performance. It felt like Game #7 of the 1995 EC Semis, when Dale Davis took off the shoulder brace and just *willed* us to victory in The Garden. It was Ron Artest's mental toughness that led us to victory in a clenching playoff game. I never thought I'd say that.

I hear that. I was reading the Pacers.com Headline that read "Artest leads Pacers to Eastern Conference Finals", and just thought "OH, to have a time machine and post THAT headline on the forums back in August."

That is something to think about. Does anyone remember that the majority of Pacer fans wanted to TRADE this guy!

Shame on you all! I think you all should be forced to wear a scarlet A from here on out.


Ronnie played terrific help defense in game 6, If I didn't know any better I would have thought Ronnie was a 7 foot center patrolling the paint in that game.

JO and Ron are terrific ancors to our Defense AND our offense. The scary thing is they are only going to get better, MUCH better.

sweabs
05-19-2004, 01:51 PM
I was just kidding about the AJ thing.

you didn't read his whole post ron_artest23 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:peak:

My bad.... :( .

ChicagoJ
05-19-2004, 02:19 PM
The MVP of the series was JO. He was dominant throughout. Other players had great games from time-to-time, but JO's consistent dominance in the low post made it all possible.

But I want to talk about Artest's performance in a close-out game.

Very, very impressive.

He showed some true character tonight - frankly he accomplished more of his "burying the old reputation" stuff last night than he had all season (when the stakes were lower.)

I mean, that was a big-time performance. It felt like Game #7 of the 1995 EC Semis, when Dale Davis took off the shoulder brace and just *willed* us to victory in The Garden. It was Ron Artest's mental toughness that led us to victory in a clenching playoff game. I never thought I'd say that.

I hear that. I was reading the Pacers.com Headline that read "Artest leads Pacers to Eastern Conference Finals", and just thought "OH, to have a time machine and post THAT headline on the forums back in August."

That is something to think about. Does anyone remember that the majority of Pacer fans wanted to TRADE this guy!

Shame on you all! I think you all should be forced to wear a scarlet A from here on out.



Just like "Pistons Digest", I deny ever having said that about Ron. You can't prove it (can you?)

:P

Southside_Pacer
05-19-2004, 03:02 PM
I'm going to stray away from you guys and say Tinsley was the best overall Pacer in this series, followed by Ronnie, and then JO.

In my opinion, the most important position on the basketball court is the point guard. He's the one that sets up the offense, calls the plays from the court, directs traffic, and gets the ball where it needs to go.

Tinsley improved a ton over this series, and when he's allowed to run our offense is pretty darn good. His passes he's making now are getting where they need to be, and often times he puts them in places where only a Pacer can catch the ball.

His shooting has also improved a lot. Tinsley exceeded my expectations in this playoff series.

LAPacer
05-19-2004, 05:06 PM
EDDIE JONES!! He helped the Pacers make it a 6 on 4 matchup. :D

Actually, I think its Artest. He seems to always be consistent in the playoffs for us.

Millerartest
05-19-2004, 09:27 PM
Cases can be made for certain players, but it has to be Artest. Willpower and some huge games without which the Pacers could not have prevailed. Maybe next time he'll hit a clutch free throw though.

kybjones
05-20-2004, 12:21 AM
Tinsley.

Why?

- Pushed the ball extremely hard on the break rather than throw those ridiculous full court hail mary's.
- Minimized his turnovers for the most part.
- Showed some composure with the ball in his hands in a number of big moments.
- Broke down his defender for a bunch of buckets in penetration.
- Consistency.

- Ronnie was great overall, no complaints here other than some shot selection issues.
- JO came very strong or completely disappeared.
- Reg was again left me scratching my head.
- Al was a mystery. Al may be playing himself out of Indy by the time July roles around.
- Foster had a shining moment. Get ready, J. The next round or two you will be CRITICAL.
- Bender had some purpose at times which is encouraging, but not as much as in the Boston series. "Coasted" around again to be an enigma other times.
- Anthony Johnson, minus his clinching free throws, had a very forgettable series.
- Hopefully Freddie recovers for defensive purposes.

I realize most will probably say Ronnie, but while Jamal's never set the world on fire, but he definitely played above and beyond what we are used to in the Heat series.

TheSauceMaster
05-20-2004, 12:31 AM
Okay imagine this , take away Ron Artest in all the Heat series , do you think we still would have won this series in 6 or 7 games ? I am not trying to discredit tinsley's importance but I think without Ron I think the Heat would have won this series.

It would almost be Like the Nets , minus Kmart..he is vital to there sucess.

Steveman
05-20-2004, 01:17 AM
They were co-MVP's, Artest :pepper: and Tinsley :dance:

Steveman
05-20-2004, 02:22 AM
oneal didn't get double digits in rebounds till game 6... when he had 12 with 7 points - in other words he didnt have a single double double in this series. i really feel jermaine oneal is highly overrated by pacer homers - i just get a bit annoyed by that. he's a good player - but he's nowhere near kevin garnett's class for example (or tim duncan) as i've seen people here try to assert.

that was just to respond to people who said that jermaine was mvp of this series - i definitly thought it was ron artest.

I know this is very arguable, but JO and Grant are very close friends and I think JO played too soft against him in this series because of that friendship. BTW, I agree, it was Artest ;)

Southside_Pacer
05-20-2004, 03:15 AM
The Pacers have a potent 1-2 scoring combo in O'Neal/Artest, and both were in the Top Ten when it comes to scoring averages in the semi-finals.

There's more to the game than scoring points, and stats. There's a heck of a lot that goes on during the game of basketball that DOESN'T show up in the stat sheets.

O'Neal's defense, his ability to make defenders think twice about coming into the lane because they know that their shot is a) going to get block or b) going to get changed, etc are huge factors that you are overlooking big time.

And he's still averaged over 20 points per game. :unimpressed: O'Neal doesn't have to average 30/20 points per game in a playoff series for us to be succesful.

ChicagoJ
05-20-2004, 11:05 AM
Josh,

Quit reading box scores and watch the games for a change.

JO's importance is not measured in stats. Although he usually scores and rebounds very effectively. JO forces the opponent to adjust thier entire gameplan to him, even if he's shooting a low %. Ron, Reggie and Jeff wouldn't have had the open open opportunities that they actually had in this series without JO commanding all of Miami's attention, double-teams (and triple-teams), swarming defense, etc. And JO is the most dominant post defender in the EC. Miami's points in the paint came on guard penetration, not post play. Although it is occasionally JO's responsibility to switch and defend the basket, he's no longer just playing "goalie" like he did his first couple years in Indy.

Miami knew that if they attempted to play Jermaine straight up, it would be a sweep. Said another way, if Miami committed themselves to shutting down Ron in this series, JO would have easily averaged 35 and 22 and it would have been a sweep - but SVG is too smart for that. This was thier only hope, and thier coaching staff and players should be commending for devising and executing a strategy that took the series to game #6.

Yes, I'm happy that Ron, Reggie, Jeff, etc. capitalized on this strategy, but it was all made possible by Miami's fear of JO. That makes JO the MVP, IMO.

I haven't decided if I find it funny or annoying that my description of JO is based on watching and analyzing the game, and your refutation is based on comparing trivial stats for different types of players.

(Yes, Garnett was awesome last night, but he's a different, softer type of player. If his shot isn't falling, he's not as dominating.)

Unclebuck
05-20-2004, 11:39 AM
Did not realize this would turn into such a debate.

The Pacers need both Artest and J.O. When one of those two guys goes out of the game their is a noticeable dropoff, no matter who comes in, but when they are both out of the game, it gets ugly very quickly. I only hope they are Pacers teammates for the next 12 years.

It is rare to have your two best players be your two most complete players

DisplacedKnick
05-20-2004, 12:17 PM
I'd vote for Artest. He kept things together plus his defense was pretty disruptive, though Miami responded well to it.

Typical playoffs - your post player keeps you in games but down the stretch you need a perimeter player to carry you because of how games are called on the inside.

BillS
05-20-2004, 12:23 PM
Yes, I'm happy that Ron, Reggie, Jeff, etc. capitalized on this strategy, but it was all made possible by Miami's fear of JO. That makes JO the MVP, IMO.

I disagree.

The MVP is the person who does the capitalizing.

For example, in game 4, Reggie was being left alone on the perimeter but couldn't make the wide-open shots. Creating the opportunity doesn't always lead to a win, and MVP is the person who contributes most to the win.

In game 6, JO has a major effect. The game might have been different without his ability to draw the defenders, but the game absolutely would have been different if Ron doesn't step up.

That makes Ron the MVP for this game.

Deciding an MVP for the series as a whole is much more difficult, because - just as in the regular season - a different player stepped up in each win. An argument could be made for Foster, for example, because game 5 is not necessarily a win if he doesn't step up, and had we lost game 5 the whole series is completely screwed up.

I think in terms of consistent performance, I have to go with Ron.

ChicagoJ
05-20-2004, 01:20 PM
Yes, I'm happy that Ron, Reggie, Jeff, etc. capitalized on this strategy, but it was all made possible by Miami's fear of JO. That makes JO the MVP, IMO.

I disagree.

The MVP is the person who does the capitalizing.

For example, in game 4, Reggie was being left alone on the perimeter but couldn't make the wide-open shots. Creating the opportunity doesn't always lead to a win, and MVP is the person who contributes most to the win.

In game 6, JO has a major effect. The game might have been different without his ability to draw the defenders, but the game absolutely would have been different if Ron doesn't step up.

That makes Ron the MVP for this game.

Deciding an MVP for the series as a whole is much more difficult, because - just as in the regular season - a different player stepped up in each win. An argument could be made for Foster, for example, because game 5 is not necessarily a win if he doesn't step up, and had we lost game 5 the whole series is completely screwed up.

I think in terms of consistent performance, I have to go with Ron.


So do you believe nobody else would have stepped up if Ron didn't? I think JO was commanding so much attention that *somebody* was going to be in a position to capitalize, whether it was Ron, Reggie, Al, Austin, whomever.

If you believe that Ron was the only guy who could have delivered a victory, then I won't argue your point. He was truly great in Game #6 - I'm not trying to belittle that at all. But different guys stepped up in different games and IMO that was all because of JO.

:twocents:

BillS
05-20-2004, 01:56 PM
I understand your feelings, but you can't base performance on "coulda woulda shoulda". In fact, Ron _did_ step up in multiple ways in multiple games.

After all, the same type of argument could be made that teams would have been collapsing on JO all season if Reggie hadn't been a credible perimeter threat. Does that make Reggie a legitimate MVP candidate? I don't think so, though it makes him vital to the team.

I think the problem is that MVP really is an individual award, where the Pacers' play this season has been the epitome of a team effort - different players stepping up, stars drawing coverage to give opportunities to others, and so forth. That's why no one on the team would really stand out enough to be league MVP, because a combination of two or more stand so far above so many other combinations.

Heck, I expect that if the Pacers were to win the Championship we'd be one of the very few teams to win yet not have the postseason MVP. That's cynical but not entirely unlikely given the way we play and the way folks see things.

Imagine. Pacers v. TWolves. Pacers win 4-3 but KG gets playoff MVP. Sheesh.