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Odd thoughts about losing to philly.... (special video reports added on post #20)

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  • #1

    Odd thoughts about losing to philly.... (special video reports added on post #20)

    This is going to be a doom & gloom free post.

    Frankly I enjoyed the game. I enjoyed the game more than I have a lot of games this season even games we won.

    Could have been the company, I was lucky enough to have Uncle Buck, Hicks & Roaming Gnome with me at the game. So that was at least entertaining, well if you can get past Gnome booing the new pacers drumline.

    But other than that it was fun to be sitting with Uncle Buck while he sank further & further in the chair while Jeff Foster had probably one of the worst games of his career here. How funny was it that he was sitting with me when it happened.

    But beyond that I really liked what I saw on the floor last night.

    Talented? Not as much as other Pacers teams for sure but in my mind far more fun to watch. Look I don't want to be the 80's Nuggets or even the present day Suns. I just am sick to death of the isolation low post offense that we have had to suffer through for the past four seasons.

    Last nights game featured ball movement, off the ball movement & for Gods sake a clear out for Orien Greene. I was when I saw it go up but ultimately, even though it didn't work, I liked it.

    Ok, folks here is the big news for the night. I have the three above posters as my witness to this.

    Rick Carlisle did NOT call the majority of the offensive plays in this game.

    I'll say that again, Rick Carlisle did NOT call the majority of play in this game. He let the p.g. call a lot of the shots & Rick actually called out at least 5 differant defensive stances that I saw.

    This makes me wonder a couple of things.

    Is this something new? Or is this who is or isn't in the game?

    Reggie was in the house as most of you have heard by now. He was given the appropriate standing ovation by Hicks & myself. Uncle Buck was channeling Uncle Scrooge at the time & gave him a sitting golf clap.

    I felt bad about one thing. Tank Thompson got a decent ovation with Reggie but later they announced Jerry Harkness was at the game & it got about a smattering of claps. U.B. & myself were both theorizing that maybe only 15% or less of the fans even had a clue who he was.

    Hicks had no idea who he was.

    Ok, quick without looking him up on google or some other search engine how many of you have a clue as to who he is?

    Next.

    I thought I would like the pairing of Murhpy & Foster & in fact I normally do, but for whatever reason Jeff just didn't have it going on last night & Rick didn't give him a whole lot of min.

    Murphy was being aggresive but frankly was settling for jumpers a little to early & often for my taste. But overall he played well.

    Ike played well in spots, I just wish to God he was about 2" taller. If he was he would be a real force in the paint, but as it is he height sometimes is his downfall on defense. He did some nice work down in the paint but I would like to see him attack the defensive boards a little more & learn to be a better positional defender. U.B. & I discussed how he has never had a good defensive coach prior to here. I then had to break the news to U.B. that he is being coached by Chuck Person as a defensive coach here to which we both agreed that Ike still hasn't ever had a good defensive coach.

    The player we were most impressed with all night long & that included Roaming Gnome who generally can't stand this player, was Orien Greene.

    As a point guard he sucks. Paired with a point guard he is a totally differant player. My God he is a defensive disrupter. He had several deflections & I have no idea how many steals he will eventually be credited with but I'll say this he made a lot of heady plays out there. For once it wasn't all related to the defensive end. He had a sweet drive & dish that pretty much left me asking where that came from. He is not now nor will this guy ever be a star but he is a good solid basketball player who I think could be a defensive specialist along the lines of a T.R. Dunn.

    Keith McCloud also did himself very proud as well. He ran a good offensive set for the most part & his ability to drive was helpfull. Plus between him, D.A., & Greene we pretty much slowed down dribble penetration all night long. We didn't stop it but we slowed it way down.

    Ok, one bit of bad news here. I just read on the star that Shawne Williams was fined by the team for oversleeping during the morning shootaround. My guess his DNP-CD was also a team imposed suspension.

    So that made two suspended players and three out with injury. Baston didn't play but was dressed, my guess is he couldn't have played much if at all.

    Ok I won't beat this to death but it has to be said & yes I am aware that this will probably be the focus of every single reply to my post, which is a shame.

    But once again Rick Carlisle played a ball movement open flowing offense during this game. He did this last year as well. He did this the year before that even more.

    The fact that everybody blames Rick Carlisle for our bogged down half court offense is just amazing to me.

    Whenever certain players are not availbable for a game we play a differant way.

    I'll let you decide who I'm talking about.

    Actually if you think it's just one player you would be wrong. There is a pattern here & two of those players have missed games together during the above named stretches.

    I'm not opposed to moving Rick on down the road, but I think that if people beleive he is the problem they are in for a suprise.

    Dunleavy had a good solid game. Nothing spectacular, but solid. U.B. & I both questioned why some fans can't stand the guy. We just don't get it, he is a good overall basketball player. He should never have been the 3rd pick in the draft & his contract is to high, but overall he is a good player.

    Oh yea, and there should be some physical proof of this soon online, during the game Uncle Buck made the statement that he wished Rick would take out Jeff Foster & bring in David Harrison because Foster was getting killed inside. I would never have beleived it if I hadn't heard it for myself.

    Anyway, even though we lost I saw a lot of good things out there & I would not be offended if Jamaal & Jermaine didn't just sit out the rest of the season.

    Flame away.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

    Your post (and a comment therein) has led me to a question.... would Larry Bird or Rick Carlisle choose Chuck Person as the defensive coach?

    Does that strike anyone as a move they would freely make, or one that was thrust upon them?

    Can't really disagree with anything in your post and there isn't much left to say so I will just say

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

      Rick Carlisle did NOT call the majority of the offensive plays in this game.
      So when DunDun curled to the FT line and hit a jumper, that was just some freelancing? It had nothing to do with the baseline cross screen for Danny, then 2 down screens by the bigs to free him up with the option to pass to Danny on the right corner or Dun coming to the FT line.

      That was all just chance that guys coordinated like that. (Even Buckner commented on that particular play)


      Sorry, but the game I saw looked like a ton of WELL RUN plays, and many of them involved running screens for Ike and Harrison going to the post, ESPECIALLY during the strong 2nd quarter run.

      You and others keep talking about all this free flow fun ball you like, but it's still the EXACT SAME sets being run.


      In fact I watched the PnR defense with the Tivo on several sets so I could go back and see how they played them step by step. You know what? I was wrong, Tinsley is primarily to blame because Greene went over the top just like Tins often does, but the difference is that OG made an effort to beat his man to the screen and to keep squared up as well which cut off the PnR penetration. I thought the bigs had been equally at fault prior to this, but OG proved that wrong. It really is just about DEF effort rather than the system.


      Tins has just played the backcourt too relaxed this year on both ends (lots of assists, but he hasn't been aggressive like you see DA, McLeod or even Greene when he controls his dribble at least). Add to this his horrible FG% and I'd say that it had a lot more to do with that then it did with low post sets.

      The low post gets doubled and tripled when the backcourt is stinking it up. Show me Greene/McLeod off the bench paired with JO a bit. Heck, can I just get a taste of the Quis/JO tandem again.

      The system is a Ferrari, but some of the effort and talent is like pouring sludge gas into it. Of course the car runs like s***.

      I can handle them keeping Dun and his bad outside shooting and defense, but they have to move Tinsley. I'd throw in Ike and even Shawne if it could move them up to a PG of Andre Miller stature. A solid guy at both ends, doesn't have to be an AS.

      I used to think Tins was taking that next step, but somewhere along the line he hit his plateau.


      And then there is Danny. He's improved in some areas, but in others he seems to have slipped back a little. I always thought it would take him 3 years to really get to his level, so I'm not off the wagon or anything. Just a bit nervous watching his development sputter or go in fits and starts.

      They must have a 3 prong attack, especially if they want to work a mobile post game. JO, Quis and Danny can be those 3, but it requires them to all PLAY, and for Danny to find the rest of of offensive game and move up to another level.

      Or they have to go get another player because the rest of the team is bench/supporting types.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

        On some of your player comments:

        Murph - what is going on with his rebounding? He gets some numbers, but man does he get beat out of a lot of tough ones. They started the game getting outrebounded 7-1 IIRC. With Jeff and Murph. I mean WTF?

        He does try to make himself valuable out there no matter what, but man does he have some holes in his game.


        Greene can't play PG, but as I said in the perimeter defense discussion by T'Bird, all you have to do is pair him with another PG. Rick has been doing this with him recently and it's working pretty well I think. Typical of RC this looks like a slow investigation thing where he feels it out and pull the cord if it starts to fall apart. But if it keeps going like this his role is going to expand. Seems obvious to me, they know what they need (DEF) and know that he's the best defender on the team.

        His DEF awareness is through the freaking roof. He helps all the time even when it's not part of the system, and he also makes sure to keep tabs on his guy when he does. You never see him guarding air, he's always looking to be involved on defense. And his one on one technique is really sound by NBA standards.

        Honestly, if he could play even an AJ level of point he wouldn't have been available to the Pacers in the first place and would cost them a lot more to keep than he will.


        Ike - I like his effort and he gets great post position. But after that I agree that his height is a HUGE problem at both ends. If you could put his rebounding and post position efforts into David Harrison, you'd have an outstanding starting center. But he doesn't have the size to finish from the post like David can, and he sure as heck can't pass out of the post double team at all, let alone as well as JO does it.

        Dunleavy had a good solid game. Nothing spectacular, but solid. U.B. & I both questioned why some fans can't stand the guy.
        That's how I feel about him. If you read my negatives on him and thought I didn't like him then you brought that to it yourself (or you as in any PD poster). Comparing his game to Jack's on an overall contribution level isn't a knock on Dun nor a boost to Jack. Both are "blah" players that at times excite you and at other times frustrate you. They have slightly different strengths and weaknesses, but ultimately you just did a talent shift from SG back to SF (ironically the exact opposite of what the Al for Jack trade originally did).

        I'd be a lot more comfortable with his inclusion in the trade were it not for Danny and Shawne already being here and the Pacers having very poor depth behind Jack at SG at the time. Give me Dun at 6'5", a little quicker and a better outside defender and I'm fine with the trade.

        But at the time of the deal some fans were hailing Dunleavy as a solution simply because he wasn't Jackson. The fact is that he was Jackson, just in a somewhat different way.

        The way he's been looking to get his scoring inside more lately has really made me happy with his game. He plays it pretty smart most of the time, but he just got abused once again tonight vs Philly on defense. Green was Dun's man for most of the 1st when he lit up the Pacers - 11 points in the first 8 minutes of the game, 11 when the other 4 Sixers combined for 10.

        Then RC put Greene on him and pulled Dun. Green got nothing for the next 2+ minutes and was then pulled.

        In the 2nd he (Green) had Greene on him for 6.5 minutes and got 3 points out of it. So in roughly more time than Dun saw vs Green, OG limited him to 3 points (with 3 misses) while Dun gave up 11 (and 1 miss). Dun can not play SG, especially on defense, and overall is a pretty poor defender period.


        And fans overlooking that aspect is another reason why my Dun ranting has been abnormally high and not representative of what I think about his overall game.

        Cripes, should I dig out the threads that had Dun playing a POINT SF for the Pacers, as a key starter and one of the best players on the team? That rhetoric is where a lot of the anti-Dun comments started to come from I think.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

          "Then RC put Greene on him and pulled Dun. Green got nothing for the next 2+ minutes and was then pulled. In the 2nd he (Green) had Greene on him for 6.5 minutes and got 3 points out of it."


          I suggest you get on a first-name basis with the Green(e)s.

          "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
            So when DunDun curled to the FT line and hit a jumper, that was just some freelancing? It had nothing to do with the baseline cross screen for Danny, then 2 down screens by the bigs to free him up with the option to pass to Danny on the right corner or Dun coming to the FT line.

            That was all just chance that guys coordinated like that. (Even Buckner commented on that particular play)


            Sorry, but the game I saw looked like a ton of WELL RUN plays, and many of them involved running screens for Ike and Harrison going to the post, ESPECIALLY during the strong 2nd quarter run.

            You and others keep talking about all this free flow fun ball you like, but it's still the EXACT SAME sets being run.

            In fact I watched the PnR defense with the Tivo on several sets so I could go back and see how they played them step by step. You know what? I was wrong, Tinsley is primarily to blame because Greene went over the top just like Tins often does, but the difference is that OG made an effort to beat his man to the screen and to keep squared up as well which cut off the PnR penetration. I thought the bigs had been equally at fault prior to this, but OG proved that wrong. It really is just about DEF effort rather than the system.


            Tins has just played the backcourt too relaxed this year on both ends (lots of assists, but he hasn't been aggressive like you see DA, McLeod or even Greene when he controls his dribble at least). Add to this his horrible FG% and I'd say that it had a lot more to do with that then it did with low post sets.

            The low post gets doubled and tripled when the backcourt is stinking it up. Show me Greene/McLeod off the bench paired with JO a bit. Heck, can I just get a taste of the Quis/JO tandem again.

            The system is a Ferrari, but some of the effort and talent is like pouring sludge gas into it. Of course the car runs like s***.

            I can handle them keeping Dun and his bad outside shooting and defense, but they have to move Tinsley. I'd throw in Ike and even Shawne if it could move them up to a PG of Andre Miller stature. A solid guy at both ends, doesn't have to be an AS.

            I used to think Tins was taking that next step, but somewhere along the line he hit his plateau.


            And then there is Danny. He's improved in some areas, but in others he seems to have slipped back a little. I always thought it would take him 3 years to really get to his level, so I'm not off the wagon or anything. Just a bit nervous watching his development sputter or go in fits and starts.

            They must have a 3 prong attack, especially if they want to work a mobile post game. JO, Quis and Danny can be those 3, but it requires them to all PLAY, and for Danny to find the rest of of offensive game and move up to another level.

            Or they have to go get another player because the rest of the team is bench/supporting types.
            One of us is horrible at communication.

            Either it's me for not articulating what I'm saying well enough or it's you for not comprehending what I am saying.

            I'll try again.

            Rick Carlisle did not call the majority of the plays this game.

            Let's examine this statment for a moment & break it down.

            By calling the play I mean Rick Carlisle stands in front of the scorers bench with his hands held out showing signs & numbers signaling to the players exactly what play they are to run and where they are to be. He often yells the play number and color out as well.

            Ok, now that we've broken down that statement let's examine what I didn't say.

            By saying Rick did not call the majority of plays in this game I did not say that there was a lack of discipline or set plays run. I did not at any time say that we had gone to Rucker Park or that we were going to play Globetrotter style offense where Keith McCloud would set the ball on the floor & dance around it.

            Of course these were set plays, of course they were plays designed & at some point called out by Rick. Notice I didn't say Rick never called out a play.

            By saying freeflowing offense I'm pretty sure I said I didn't want the Nuggets or Suns offense, I guess I need to go one step further for you & say that I don't want anarchy either I guess.

            Hows this, I just want an end to isolation offense as a great deal of our offensive sets. There is a time & a place for isolation plays but IMO we rely to often on them.

            Now as to your comment on Greene I can't say I disagree. I like his abilities when placed with a p.g.

            Also Granger has developed some bad habbits but I'm hoping a new season with a new surrounding cast will help that. His defense for some reason appears to be regressing, I'm not sure why.

            Still, no matter what, I thought it was a fun game.


            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

              On the Rick calling or not calling plays. Rick let the point guard call the plays quite a bit last night. It isn't like when Rick doesn't tell the point guard what to run - that they just not run a play at all. They do run a play, one of the plays Rick has taught them, one of the plays in Rick's playbook - the only difference is the point guard chooses the play.

              I always thought that fans didn't like Rick calling the plays because it slowed the team down in transition. But maybe I'm wrong, so let me ask - do we not like Rick being the one calling the plays, or do we not like the actual plays that Rick has taught and coached this team to run.

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              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                OG Gangsta's roles on this team (assuming his ability to maintain recent level of play):

                -Backup, defensive-oriented SG
                -3rd PG
                -Situational perimeter defensive specialist

                Now it would be great if he could still somehow refine his lacking PG skills to someday handle the backup point role, too. Don't know that it will necessarily happen, but I can hope. As sad as this team has been defending outside, I think the above roles are immediate regardless of who's healthy or not. That means Dun should be moved to SF upon Quis's return.

                I want to say one more thing about OG. When he gets sufficient time on the court to feel comfortable and get his game going, the guy displays some noticeable moxie. He's got some swagger. Some confidence and toughness. And with his defensive orientation, he got some of that relentless attack to him.

                True these things can sometime go to the negative extreme, but we desperately have missed this type of mindset this season. Call me delusional but I see this guy and think he's got potential leadership abilities. I also like that Ike shows some fire when he gets going, too.
                I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                -Emiliano Zapata

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                  Originally posted by Peck View Post

                  Orien Greene.

                  Keith McCloud

                  Whenever certain players are not availbable for a game we play a differant way.

                  I'll let you decide who I'm talking about.

                  Dunleavy had a good solid game. Nothing spectacular, but solid. U.B. & I both questioned why some fans can't stand the guy.

                  Uncle Buck made the statement that he wished Rick would take out Jeff Foster & bring in David Harrison because Foster was getting killed inside.
                  I gotta give an AMEN to this post. I also really emjoyed this game, with this line-up.

                  Greene & McLeod made a good pairing in the backcourt. I like to see quickness and energy out of the guards. They provided that.

                  Dun will never get any highlight footage on Sportcenter. That is not his game. To me, he plays the right way. He is all about TEAM, and not "I, me, mine".

                  I also want to see more of Diogu and Harrison paired out there. In fact I wanted tose more minutes out of Harrison period. I thougt he played well, in particular since he has been missing from the lineup for so much of the year.

                  Now, I know that JO is more talented than either of those guys, but if you could take Ike's effort and put it into JO's size, then you would really have something. Sorry guys, I think Ike is maybe the hardest worker out there. Maybe it is because he HAS TO work harder to get as much accomplished, but for whatever reason, I enjoy seeing him give that effort.


                  EDIT:

                  Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the "playijng different when certain players are not on the floor" part.

                  I understand that sometimes you have to play different ways to take advantage of the talents of your available players.

                  However... (and I know many are going to hate this part)

                  I am more and more convinced that much of our style of play is based on the demands of our PRIMADONNA franchise player.

                  I am also more and more convinced that JO may say the right things, but in the end thinks that he should come first. Period!

                  We have seen many of the Philly players step up and show more of what they can do with the ball-hogging AI gone. I think we would see the same from many of the Pacers players if they were given the chance.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                    I didn't attend the game, but watched most of it on TV. I have not watched an entire game this year, and this was only about the third or fourth one I've watched. So I'm coming from a different perspective than most.

                    I thought the game was very enjoyable. I don't care that we lost. I saw effort and heart out there and some talent, but not as much as we've got. For me I think the difference boiled down to not seeing two people. One who I've grown to dislike as a player and personality, the other who is such a force on the court that he seems to overshadow everything else that is going on.

                    I liked the involvement of multiple players. It made me realize even more that NBA teams are composed of marquee players with a supporting cast. What a shame. Granted this is what puts today's fan in the seats and there always will be one player who is better than the others, but what a difference it makes, for me anyway, when that player is missing.

                    Just my 2¢.
                    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                      Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post


                      Sorry, but the game I saw looked like a ton of WELL RUN plays, and many of them involved running screens for Ike and Harrison going to the post, ESPECIALLY during the strong 2nd quarter run.

                      You and others keep talking about all this free flow fun ball you like, but it's still the EXACT SAME sets being run..
                      Without the predominance of low post isolation ball....

                      -Bball
                      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                      ------

                      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                      -John Wooden

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                        Peck's proof of Unclebuck's words is coming.

                        I'm trying to find a converter so it doesn't have to be a 60mb+ file for only a half-minute of video.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                          Everything I'm trying isn't working as I'd like so for now here's the original version (large file)

                          http://www.able-towers.com/~hicks/pe...buck031007.mov

                          You may need to turn up the volume; remind me to stand closer next time.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                            That's pretty funny stuff! Especially this "conspiracy"-like () smile and tone from Peck .
                            2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                            2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                            2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts about losing to philly....

                              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                              You and others keep talking about all this free flow fun ball you like, but it's still the EXACT SAME sets being run.

                              I saw one brand new play last night, and we've seen those sets before, but 1)we haven't seen them in a while and 2)we haven't seen that frequency of a few sets. I think I counted five Dunleavy curls in the first half. I'm used to him touching the ball maybe once or twice in the first quarter and never having a play called for him.

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