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View Full Version : Thank You Isiah Thomas/Donnie Walsh



ROCislandWarrior
05-15-2004, 10:47 PM
For drafting Jamaal Tinsley!

I have been waiting and waiting, but I can wait no longer to post this... I love Tinsley

His numbers were decent, 7pts and 8asts but the way he ran this team tonight was just superb

Everytime we needed to speed it up, Tins did it
Everytime we needed to slow it down, Tins did it

He was telling guys where to go and making an effort to swing the ball

And his penetration wasn't bad either


He has been playing this way throughout the playoffs and I see no end since what he is doing is all in his head.

I am convinced, Jamaal Tinsley will (I hope) be the point guard of this team for many years to come

Ragnar
05-15-2004, 10:51 PM
I was encouraged that they were allowed to run tonight. In that last game every time they tried you could see Rick telling them to slow it down. Not tonight, tonight he let them run and it was a thing of beauty when they did.

If Tinsley is not the pg of the future for this team I would be very very upset. Heck he is the pg of the now not just the future.

bulletproof
05-15-2004, 10:56 PM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Doug
05-15-2004, 11:00 PM
There are two players that are the key to this team. One is Jamal Tinsley. The other is Jeff Foster. Tinsley is a bit obvious, I guess. You'd expect the point guard to have a big, big influence on the offence. Jeff keys the defense. When he on defensively, *everybody* moves a step quicker. The rotations are faster, everybody gives that extra effort.

But enough about Jeff. Tinsley was great tonight. AJ wasn't bad, but it was night and day between the two. Our offense clicks when Tinsley is in. In, out, then around. Extra passes. Finding the cutters. *Everybody* plays better.

That's what a point guard should do. A good point guard makes everybody play better.

Anthem
05-15-2004, 11:00 PM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Thomas did. And no he didn't.

Anyway, there were two things about Tinsley that really warmed my heart tonight. First, he made Wade spend some energy on defense... Dwayne's got skills on O but he's not as good on D. Let's make THEM rotate into the lane for a change.

The other was the usual... some really amazing passes.

I was also interested to see us finish the game with Johnson and Tinsley both on the court. It's been a while since we've seen that combo, hasn't it? I liked it a lot, by the way... it neutralizes the Alson/Wade combo nicely, and the offense seems to stay awake.

kerosene
05-15-2004, 11:01 PM
Croshere played good tonight too. Couple of nice defensive plays, boxed out on rebounds, timely shot or two.

ROCislandWarrior
05-15-2004, 11:05 PM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Thomas did. And no he didn't.

Anyway, there were two things about Tinsley that really warmed my heart tonight. First, he made Wade spend some energy on defense... Dwayne's got skills on O but he's not as good on D. Let's make THEM rotate into the lane for a change.

The other was the usual... some really amazing passes.

I was also interested to see us finish the game with Johnson and Tinsley both on the court. It's been a while since we've seen that combo, hasn't it? I liked it a lot, by the way... it neutralizes the Alson/Wade combo nicely, and the offense seems to stay awake.

Well with Freddie out, AJ got the 2 guard call.

Dwayne is amazing, no doubt, but you are right about his D. I am sure he will work on that. A guy with his quickness, strenght and speed has no business being toyed with by Jamaal Tinsley.

bulletproof
05-15-2004, 11:24 PM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Thomas did. And no he didn't.


Eh, those are Walsh's words. Guess you have a better handle on it than he does.

Anthem
05-16-2004, 02:00 AM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Thomas did. And no he didn't.

Eh, those are Walsh's words. Guess you have a better handle on it than he does.

:link:

bulletproof
05-16-2004, 04:16 AM
Who drafted Jamaal?

Walsh always felt like Isiah under-utilized Tins.

Thomas did. And no he didn't.

Eh, those are Walsh's words. Guess you have a better handle on it than he does.

:link:




Link? I don't need no stinkin' link.

Will Galen
05-16-2004, 05:42 AM
Bulletproff is right. Walsh drafted Tinsley, not Isiah. Isiah may have wanted Tins, but Walsh has always had the last say in who the Pacer's draft.

However, Bird is now director of basketball operations so he will now have the last say in who the Pacers draft.

indygeezer
05-16-2004, 08:05 AM
I'll never forget all the grimacing, hand wringing, *****ing, moaning and whining MANY PACER FANS expressed at the RATS (Indy Star) Forum his first and second year when many of us were still posting there.

I HAVE LOVED HIM FROM THE GET GO.

....and remember fondly so many others blowing me off when I stated last season that I believed he would be the next Pacer's All Star (year three...this season).

Well obviously I was wrong about him making the All Star team this year but he is the cornerstone of the Pacer's Offense and I believe the foundation upon which the Pacers will be able to reach the NBA Finals this season.

When that happens I will feel somewhat vindicated.

The really great thing about him is that he's still improving several other facets of his game (DEFENSE ...OUTSIDE SHOOTING....ETC.).

I was one of those biatching about Tinsley. I didn't like his "Rucker Park" style that he frequently fell into, almost always at the wrong time. Well he's toned it down while keeping the energy. Would I keep him? Definately. Would I give him up if Nash or Redd or any of the quicks were availabe to the P's? Yes, depending on the price.

PaceBalls
05-16-2004, 08:14 AM
Obviously Steve Nash is a great player, but when talking about stuff like "I would give him up for so n so etc.." You gotta take into account that Tinsley has had 3 years to really get to know the players and their styles, the way they cut, how much help defense will be there if he gets beat, all that. Just like say Steve knows with Dirk. That kinda savy takes time to accomplish, so I say getting rid of Tins for Nash would be a step backwards. Chemistry. It would take Nash another year or 2 just to get close to Tinsleys familiarity with the team.

Whats Steve Nash got anyway that Tins doesnt anyway? a better shot? Tins is a better defender and better passer, probably better court awareness too. though that is debatable.

Anthem
05-16-2004, 12:51 PM
Bulletproff is right. Walsh drafted Tinsley, not Isiah. Isiah may have wanted Tins, but Walsh has always had the last say in who the Pacer's draft.

However, Bird is now director of basketball operations so he will now have the last say in who the Pacers draft.

Fine, if you want to split the semantic hairs. Walsh DRAFTED Tinsley, but Thomas CHOSE Tinsley. Is that better?

ABADays
05-16-2004, 01:59 PM
Well, he's playing like it's Conseco and not Rucker - a professional game.

Will Galen
05-16-2004, 02:01 PM
Bulletproff is right. Walsh drafted Tinsley, not Isiah. Isiah may have wanted Tins, but Walsh has always had the last say in who the Pacer's draft.

However, Bird is now director of basketball operations so he will now have the last say in who the Pacers draft.

Fine, if you want to split the semantic hairs. Walsh DRAFTED Tinsley, but Thomas CHOSE Tinsley. Is that better?

:link: :link: :link: :link: :link: :link: :link:


No, you're giving Isiah to much credit. Isiah didn't choose Tinsley. The most he gets credit for is saying Tinsley is who he wanted. You don't know who Walsh wanted. For all you know he could have wanted Tinsley as much as Isiah did. If you want to thank someone, thank Walsh!

ROCislandWarrior
05-16-2004, 02:54 PM
Is there anyone else we should be thanking?

Tinleys family, "2-hott" the balla at rucker who taught him how to play, or anyone else?

Unclebuck
05-16-2004, 11:35 PM
As you all know I never had a moments doubt about Tinsley. Never, ever.

























Well maybe once.

He has been great in the playoffs, both series. I do wish his defense was better. it is much better than it was last season, much much better, he will never be a lock down defender though, I've come to accept than.

ROCislandWarrior
05-16-2004, 11:53 PM
As you all know I never had a moments doubt about Tinsley. Never, ever.

























Well maybe once.

He has been great in the playoffs, both series. I do wish his defense was better. it is much better than it was last season, much much better, he will never be a lock down defender though, I've come to accept than.

Neither was Reggie, and he never could have been...but look what he did

The kids in great shape to be a great PG for many years to come

NewYawk
05-17-2004, 09:44 AM
Link? I don't need no stinkin' link.

You're right! You don't need a link to back up such a totally false and misleading statement. That's the whole point behind false and misleading statements! They aren't based in fact or reality. Thus, no links to back them up.

:unimpressed:

Please remove thy head from butt, bullet. The only thing more pathetic than your constant Thomas bashing is your steadfast attempts to give him ZERO credit for ANYTHING! Thomas lobbied for Tinsley to get drafted, and Walsh did so. Walsh typically does this. Why else was Croshere drafted? Because Bird liked him, and lobbied for Walsh to draft him. This is typical amongst good NBA franchises. The coaches and GM actually TALK TO ONE ANOTHER, and pick a player they both like. Such a novel concept.

Thomas, Walsh, Carlisle, and (most importantly) JAMAAL TINSLEY all deserve credit for the current player that is Jamaal Tinsley.

Slick Pinkham
05-17-2004, 10:18 AM
This is a silly argument.

How are we supposed to know who it was in the Pacer organization that was pushing hard for Jamaal to be picked?

I know of no links at all that suggest that it was purely Walsh's call with no Isiah input, and I know of no links that claim Isiah was lobbying hard to pick Jamaal.

I googled it several times.

Some pre-draft analyses did suggest strong Pacer interest in Tinsley. Some links suggested Isiah lobbying hard to pick Fred Jones a year later, but nothing on Isiah lobbying for JT.

Walsh was the boss, so ultimately it was his call. Since JT is turning out to be a good player, and based upon his comments in recent months I'd say Isiah is a credit-grabber by nature, I'm sure isiah will claim it was all his idea.

NewYawk
05-17-2004, 10:26 AM
This is a silly argument.

How are we supposed to know who it was in the Pacer organization that was pushing hard for Jamaal to be picked?

I know of no links at all that suggest that it was purely Walsh's call with no Isiah input, and I know of no links that claim Isiah was lobbying hard to pick Jamaal.

I googled it several times.

Some pre-draft analyses did suggest strong Pacer interest in Tinsley. Some links suggested Isiah lobbying hard to pick Fred Jones a year later, but nothing on Isiah lobbying for JT.

Walsh was the boss, so ultimately it was his call. Since JT is turning out to be a good player, and based upon his comments in recent months I'd say Isiah is a credit-grabber by nature, I'm sure isiah will claim it was all his idea.

Thomas lobbied all of 2001 for the Pacers to get a playmaker, and he and Walsh targeted Tinsely (who they traded up for to get). It's clear Thomas was not unhappy with the Tinsley pick. Again, Walsh and Thomas TALKED to each other about who they wanted to draft. Walsh had the final call, but both were interested in Tinsely.

Again, the guy who deserves the most credit for Tinsely is TINSLEY, just as the guy who deserves credit for Artest's behaviour this season is RON ARTEST: not Rick Carlisle or Larry Bird.

Slick Pinkham
05-17-2004, 10:44 AM
he and Walsh targeted Tinsely...

Again, Walsh and Thomas TALKED to each other about who they wanted to draft. Walsh had the final call, but both were interested in Tinsely.


Sounds good.

You say that with such assurance that undoubtedly you must have a...

:link:

Or maybe you were there.

Or maybe you are just putting the spin on it that makes Isiah look best.

ChicagoJ
05-17-2004, 11:02 AM
I don't think the article exists on-line anymore, but bulletproof may know what I'm talking about and may have some additional insights...

For the 2001 draft, Conrad Brunner was allowed in the war room, and he posted several interesting articles on Pacers.com about that night.

We had targeted Tinsley since his pre-draft workout. Isiah fell in love with him when he spat on the floor and said, "let's go to work." From what I understand, DW - as a former NYC guard - was already pretty high on the kid even before the workout. Once Isiah was on board, the Pacers were clearly targeting him (and they would have taken him with thier original pick at #14 that GSW claimed as part of the Foster trade.

Yes, Isiah had been begging for a playmaker the entire previous season, with Jalen playing out of position at PG and his backup 'PG' was an undersized small forward named Travis Best.

Tinsley's stock was falling near the draft day, with questions about his attitude and conditioning. The more he fell, the more optimistic the Pacers were that they could swing a deal.

According to Brunner's presumably now-offline article, our former GM that lived in Portland - what was his name? - was on the phone with Altanta, working out the three team trade, with DW yelling, Do It! We want the kid!

It seems that every time a player is drafted, it is a collaborative effort by the entire basketball staff - coaches, scouts and management. The GM isn't going to pick a guy the coach hates, but the coach only has influence and not the final decision.

But we all know how it *really* works: If it was successful, give the credit to the guy you like. If it fails, blame the other guy.

Hicks
05-17-2004, 11:19 AM
I don't think the article exists on-line anymore, but bulletproof may know what I'm talking about and may have some additional insights...

For the 2001 draft, Conrad Brunner was allowed in the war room, and he posted several interesting articles on Pacers.com about that night.

We had targeted Tinsley since his pre-draft workout. Isiah fell in love with him when he spat on the floor and said, "let's go to work." From what I understand, DW - as a former NYC guard - was already pretty high on the kid even before the workout. Once Isiah was on board, the Pacers were clearly targeting him (and they would have taken him with thier original pick at #14 that GSW claimed as part of the Foster trade.

Yes, Isiah had been begging for a playmaker the entire previous season, with Jalen playing out of position at PG and his backup 'PG' was an undersized small forward named Travis Best.

Tinsley's stock was falling near the draft day, with questions about his attitude and conditioning. The more he fell, the more optimistic the Pacers were that they could swing a deal.

According to Brunner's presumably now-offline article, our former GM that lived in Portland - what was his name? - was on the phone with Altanta, working out the three team trade, with DW yelling, Do It! We want the kid!

It seems that every time a player is drafted, it is a collaborative effort by the entire basketball staff - coaches, scouts and management. The GM isn't going to pick a guy the coach hates, but the coach only has influence and not the final decision.

But we all know how it *really* works: If it was successful, give the credit to the guy you like. If it fails, blame the other guy.

I remember it as you do and agree with everything you just said. You laid it out a lot better than I would have. :)

Slick Pinkham
05-17-2004, 11:23 AM
I know I for one was begging for a PG on draft day.

It was obvious to me, to most of us, to Walsh, and to Isiah that Travis Best just wasn't good enough.

I just have a hard time with the spin that drafting JT was Isiah's idea, or that he somehow needed to convince Donnie.

As Jay said, it was probably a collaborative effort, and it would have been pretty idiotic to target anything but the best point guard available at the time where you have the pick or at a point where you can trade for a pick. We were desperate for a PG, just as now we are pretty desperate for a backup PG. The current need is a better problem to have!

Unclebuck
05-17-2004, 12:59 PM
Jay's account is correct, I am looking at part of Conrad's article right now, it was a rare inside look at the pacers draft night dealings.

I don't have the whole article, only page one.

here is a portion, "The pacers have spent much of the previous week trying to trade up into the middle of the first round in order to draft Iowa State point guard Jamaal Tinsley.


Not sure what happened to page #2.

The Pacers wanted Jamaal, the whole draft was spent trying to get him from around the 14th pick on.


Note: I also have the article that came out the Friday before Memorial dat weekend, "Walsh defends Isiah, takes aim at roster"

Now I would call that article, "DW lies in defending Isiah as talks heat up with Larry Bird"

Bball
05-17-2004, 01:35 PM
snip-our former GM that lived in Portland - what was his name? - -snip-

Hmmmm what was his name..... :confused:

http://www.trekconnection.com/images/st2p.jpg

http://www.hillshirefarm.com/images/Products/kahns_hotdogs.jpg

:P

-Bball :D

bulletproof
05-17-2004, 02:20 PM
Note: I also have the article that came out the Friday before Memorial day weekend, "Walsh defends Isiah, takes aim at roster"

Now I would call that article, "DW lies in defending Isiah as talks heat up with Larry Bird"

Eh, "lies" has such negative connotations. First of all, it's business. What do you expect DW to say to the press? Secondly, Walsh had lost faith in Isiah during the team's mid-season collapse for reasons I've stated numerous times here, namely, Isiah wouldn't listen to him. Thirdly and lastly, talks weren't "heating up" with Larry at that time and can be best described as sporadic, but ongoing. Again, I've outlined the reasons why Donnie wanted to bring Larry in. It had primarily to do with the fact that Donnie wanted to pull back and spend more time with his family. But talks with Larry didn't really start heating up until well after Memorial Day. The death of Walsh's granddaughter on June 25th expediated Bird coming aboard, although the decision had already pretty much been made. And although Donnie would have let Isiah at least begin the next season, hiring Larry was a fate accompli. In other words, firing Isiah isn't something Donnie wouldn't have done on his own in the off-season, but certainly he was relieved and didn't stand in the way when it happened. Larry did what Donnie really would have liked to have done himself, but didn't because he's so damn loyal.

NewYawk
05-17-2004, 02:27 PM
he and Walsh targeted Tinsely...

Again, Walsh and Thomas TALKED to each other about who they wanted to draft. Walsh had the final call, but both were interested in Tinsely.


Sounds good.

You say that with such assurance that undoubtedly you must have a...

:link:

Or maybe you were there.

Or maybe you are just putting the spin on it that makes Isiah look best.

Here's a link for you:
http://animallovingforadults.org/

It's obvious Thomas targeted Tinsley. To suggest otherwise is to argue for the sake of trolling.

Slick Pinkham
05-17-2004, 02:46 PM
I don't know what your link is.

I don't doubt that Isiah liked Tinley.

The point is that Walsh apparently did too. To say that Tinsley was Isiah's pick is silly. The Pacers organization wanted Jamaal. The recollections of Jay, Unclebuck, and Hicks bear that out.

I don't know of any other head coach that grabbed or even tried to grab all of the credit for making a draft pick. The general manager and team president usually are the ones who are judged positively or negatively based upon how the pick works out.

A couple of years back the Celtics had three picks and chose Kedrick Brown, Joe Johnson, and Joe Forte. It could have been Richard Jefferson, Zach Randolph, and Tinsley (or Tony Parker). Nobody blames the Celtics coaching staff for one of the biggest draft day F-ups in history. General manager Chris Wallace was the goat, and he is now scouting penguins in Antarctica for Ainge. The Celtics tend not not to fire front office people they like but are incompetent. They are merely hoping that his role is so insignificant that Wallace will soon want to do something else. One can debate whether Ainge is competent or not, but the draft day screwup is one of the major reasons he has his job.

Every organization is different in how it handles the draft, but usually the buck stops with the GM or the president of operations (if one exists).

ChicagoJ
05-17-2004, 02:48 PM
snip-our former GM that lived in Portland - what was his name? - -snip-

Hmmmm what was his name..... :confused:

http://www.trekconnection.com/images/st2p.jpg

http://www.hillshirefarm.com/images/Products/kahns_hotdogs.jpg

:P

-Bball :D

I've wanted to say Mike Kahn all morning - but he's the CBS.Sportsline writer who used to be based in Indy. Was it David Kahn?

Kegboy
05-17-2004, 04:15 PM
I've wanted to say Mike Kahn all morning - but he's the CBS.Sportsline writer who used to be based in Indy. Was it David Kahn?

Yes, David Kahn. He still comes to a good half dozen games a year, and sits with Donnie.

As for the debate, I always had the impression that Tins was Isiah's guy, while Brewer was Donnie's.

And, just to stir the pot a little, Travis Best was Rick's guy (supposedly liked him over Jax). Remember that both Brown and Bird tried to talk Travis out of signing with Dallas, a week before Isiah was canned.

And Derrick McKey was Phil Jackson's guy. Phil routinely voted him All-Defense 1st team (probably cause he couldn't vote for Pip.)

Arcadian
05-17-2004, 05:02 PM
And Derrick McKey was Phil Jackson's guy. Phil routinely voted him All-Defense 1st team (probably cause he couldn't vote for Pip.)

Or Phil liked him so much because McKey is who they traded for Scottie.