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andreialta
01-31-2007, 02:35 AM
In the game, Dunleavy really got out of the game by getting 2 quick fouls in the span of 20 seconds on the same type of play with the same guy, and i mean literally took him out of the game. Though it was a really horrible shooting performance by him, he was doing a lot in the game, if you watch the game then you should have seen all those nice passes he threw to J.O. Tinsley and even Marshall.

Murphy i think played the way i expected him to play, though i expect much more scoring and better defending, he did a great job rebounding tonight tho i think he really got outplayed by Jeff Foster.

Tinsley is one of the main problem why Dunleavy isnt scoring much, and Dunleavy really doesnt need to score much, Tinsley rarely passes the ball to him, and when Mike finally gets the ball, he is smart enough not to be forcing shots, but actually setting up play like a point guard, i saw a couple of scenarios where he could just chucked it up, but gave the extra pass for a drive by marshall (happened twice) then to J.O.,
just the shooting is the only negative, everything else was positive except that turnovers..

croxia
01-31-2007, 03:45 AM
Ok~ Dun is a smart player but i think he'll attempt to shot and develope

defensive skills.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 11:31 AM
Thanks for the inisights.

Is it taking Tinsley a while to learn where to get his new teammates the ball, or does Tinsley view Dunleavy as competition?

Since the Pacers seem incapable of acquiring a PG that would make Tinsley obsolete, can Dunleavy do that from the "point forward" position?

I like Dunleavy's floor game, even if he's not shooting well. He does seem to be the polar opposite of the guys we shipped out - if his shot's not falling (or if he's not getting many touches) he can rely on his on-court smarts to still contribute to the team.

Our team defense still needs some work, because these guys are not going to be "great" individual defenders.

Roferr
01-31-2007, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the inisights.

Is it taking Tinsley a while to learn where to get his new teammates the ball, or does Tinsley view Dunleavy as competition?

Since the Pacers seem incapable of acquiring a PG that would make Tinsley obsolete, can Dunleavy do that from the "point forward" position?

I like Dunleavy's floor game, even if he's not shooting well. He does seem to be the polar opposite of the guys we shipped out - if his shot's not falling (or if he's not getting many touches) he can rely on his on-court smarts to still contribute to the team.

Our team defense still needs some work, because these guys are not going to be "great" individual defenders.

I wouldn't put it past Tins to freeze out Dunleavy. He's definite competition for him. He's probably also, a little resentful of his buddies being shipped out. If he is picking to whom he passes, RC should have the smarts and the nads to realize this and to set Tins straight.

I believe Tins is the only thing that stands between us and going deep into the playoffs.

imawhat
01-31-2007, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the inisights.

Is it taking Tinsley a while to learn where to get his new teammates the ball, or does Tinsley view Dunleavy as competition?

It's not just Dunleavy; Granger too. Tinsley only passes to Jermaine and Troy. It's remarkable; over 90% of his passes go to them. Granger is averaging less than 2 passes from Tinsley in the first quarter in the past four games; Dunleavy even less. He practically refuses to look at Dunleavy in the open floor. It reminds me of Stephen Jackson last year when he wouldn't pass it to Sarunas.

NuffSaid
01-31-2007, 12:32 PM
It's not just Dunleavy; Granger too. Tinsley only passes to Jermaine and Troy. It's remarkable; over 90% of his passes go to them. Granger is averaging less than 2 passes from Tinsley in the first quarter in the past four games; Dunleavy even less. He practically refuses to look at Dunleavy in the open floor. It reminds me of Stephen Jackson last year when he wouldn't pass it to Sarunas.

When you understand how an "inside/outside" offense works, then you'll understand why Tinsley passes to JO/Murphy moreso than anyone else.

He's suppose to pass the ball into the low post. It's then up to JO/Murphy to decide whether to either: a) keep the ball and make a strong post move to the basket; or, b) kick the ball back out. From there, Tinsley needs to decide what to do next: a) pass the ball back to JO/Murphy for the low-post reset; b) pass the ball to someone else; c) drive the lane for the score; or, d) kick the ball back out for the additional pass along the perimeter to find the open man.

You see, it's not as cut and dry as some people think. Now, I agree that sometimes a player may freeze out another, i.e., Jackson not working well with Sarunas, but I don't think that was the case here w/Tinsley. I think it was a matter of him playing within the offense...something few give him credit of doing.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 12:38 PM
I think we'll see that over time, Tinsley and Dunleavy, Daniels, and Granger all getting more comfortable with each other.

But I'm curious to see how it pans out (and whether or not PD will accept it if it happens, it seems like Tinsley has become everyone's fall-guy.)

imawhat
01-31-2007, 12:42 PM
When you understand how an "inside/outside" offense works, then you'll understand why Tinsley passes to JO/Murphy moreso than anyone else.

He's suppose to pass the ball into the low post. It's then up to JO/Murphy to decide whether to either: a) keep the ball and make a strong post move to the basket; or, b) kick the ball back out. From there, Tinsley needs to decide what to do next: a) pass the ball back to JO/Murphy for the low-post reset; b) pass the ball to someone else; c) drive the lane for the score; or, d) kick the ball back out for the additional pass along the perimeter to find the open man.

You see, it's not as cut and dry as some people think. Now, I agree that sometimes a player may freeze out another, i.e., Jackson not working well with Sarunas, but I don't think that was the case here w/Tinsley. I think it was a matter of him playing within the offense...something few give him credit of doing.


I'd agree with you if we were playing an inside-out offense. We're not.

How many times have you seen Troy Murphy in the post? I'd say about six times since he's been here. He's also thrown the ball to Jermaine more on the elbow than in the post.

And none of that takes fast breaks into account. He flat out ignores Dunleavy on the break. I've seen more chances for open layups missed because Tinsley will not pass him the ball. You know how refreshing it was to see Tinsley make a full-court pass to a wide open Granger last night? At the same time, why is he risking that pass and refusing to pass it on the wing during a break?

And then there's the DA substitution. Same players on the court with Tinsley, yet the ball moves 1.5 times as much as it did with Tinsley on the floor. Not an offensive philosophy change, just willingness to pass the ball to the wing players.

Anthem
01-31-2007, 02:25 PM
I'll watch for it, but I haven't seen Tinsley ignoring Dunleavy. I haven't seen a bunch of times where I thought "Wow, I wish Dunleavy had gotten the ball there."

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 02:30 PM
I have, but I'm still willing to attribute it to unfamiliarity.

I think our ball movement and off-the-ball movement have improved tremendously but I don't know that Tinsley is habitually looking for those opportunities yet. He's used to the stand-around-and-watch performances we've all been seeing.

What I'm really looking forward to are:

1. Dunleavy feeding the post like McKey used to do.
2. Dunleavy/ Granger/ Daniels sharing the ball among three capable, versatile offensive threats.

Ragnar
01-31-2007, 02:38 PM
Where is this Tins wont pass to Granger coming from?

Yeah he has not sent as many to Dun as he did at first but you have to take into account Ricks play calling.

He may not be happy with as many times as Dun has gotten the ball and run it up the floor only to get nothing. Then he does not get the ball in play until late in the clock. I saw him do that more than enough times last night to want to keep the ball away from him.

MagicRat
01-31-2007, 04:29 PM
Maybe Mike should place a call to Baby Al to discuss the Ron Artest approach to getting opportunities in this offense if your number isn't called.........

JB's Breakout Year
01-31-2007, 04:50 PM
I'd agree with you if we were playing an inside-out offense. We're not.

How many times have you seen Troy Murphy in the post? I'd say about six times since he's been here. He's also thrown the ball to Jermaine more on the elbow than in the post.

And none of that takes fast breaks into account. He flat out ignores Dunleavy on the break. I've seen more chances for open layups missed because Tinsley will not pass him the ball. You know how refreshing it was to see Tinsley make a full-court pass to a wide open Granger last night? At the same time, why is he risking that pass and refusing to pass it on the wing during a break?

And then there's the DA substitution. Same players on the court with Tinsley, yet the ball moves 1.5 times as much as it did with Tinsley on the floor. Not an offensive philosophy change, just willingness to pass the ball to the wing players.
Tinsley gets the ball to the right guy on the break as consistently as anyone else in the NBA. He's Nash-esque in that area. He also times his pass on the break just about perfectly every time. He's not the greatest shooter in the world, but Jamaal can run the break with the best of them.

mike_D
01-31-2007, 04:59 PM
2. Dunleavy/ Granger/ Daniels sharing the ball among three capable, versatile offensive threats.


I can't wait to see that either. Biggest problem I have with Tinsley is that he holds on to the ball for way to long while waiting to do anything with it. I don't know if Tinsley is freezing out Dunlevy but I doubt it.

I think its becoming clear that Dunlevy/Tinsley is just not a good combination.Part of the reason is for Dunlevy to be effective he kind of has to be the pg on the offensive end.Because of that I would rather have Marquis start and bring Dunlevy off the bench so he'll have a bigger role with playmaking.

imawhat
01-31-2007, 05:00 PM
Tinsley gets the ball to the right guy on the break as consistently as anyone else in the NBA. He's Nash-esque in that area. He also times his pass on the break just about perfectly every time. He's not the greatest shooter in the world, but Jamaal can run the break with the best of them.


In the past four games, Tinsley has had 7 3-on-1 and 4-on-2s that he has completely backed out of, and 4 of which he's taken the shot himself, missing all. I'm guessing Steve Nash would cringe at the replays.


I wouldn't call it "consistently getting it to the right guy on a fast break" when the person shooting 30% of the time (Tinsley) ranks 330th in the NBA in FG%.

bnd45
01-31-2007, 05:04 PM
Tinsley gets the ball to the right guy on the break as consistently as anyone else in the NBA. He's Nash-esque in that area. He also times his pass on the break just about perfectly every time. He's not the greatest shooter in the world, but Jamaal can run the break with the best of them.

This is actually his biggest weakness right now. He calls his own number way too often on the break. He used to be a smooth distributor in transition, but now he tends to force up shots rather than pass the ball. This isn't all his fault as he had been playing with guys who didn't run the break properly and JT developed some real bad habits. Daniels and Granger are both huge upgrades and get how to run the floor. Dunleavy while not the finisher that those 2 are understands how to space and pass on a break. This team is now better equipped to run than the old one, and we are slowly seeing Carlisle allow JT the freedom to push things a little more.

imawhat
01-31-2007, 05:10 PM
This is actually his biggest weakness right now. He calls his own number way too often on the break. He used to be a smooth distributor in transition, but now he tends to force up shots rather than pass the ball. This isn't all his fault as he had been playing with guys who didn't run the break properly and JT developed some real bad habits. Daniels and Granger are both huge upgrades and get how to run the floor. Dunleavy while not the finisher that those 2 are understands how to space and pass on a break. This team is now better equipped to run than the old one, and we are slowly seeing Carlisle allow JT the freedom to push things a little more.


As much as I've been harping on Tinsley, I want it to be clear that I agee with this. He's shown in the past that he can play well in transition. I think he learned bad habits because he couldn't pass it to half of the starting lineup on the break. He made a nice pass to Granger, and it was one of the rare "fast break" passes to him. My last ounce of faith in Tinsley believes that it's a sign of things to come.

JB's Breakout Year
01-31-2007, 05:20 PM
In the past four games, Tinsley has had 7 3-on-1 and 4-on-2s that he has completely backed out of, and 4 of which he's taken the shot himself, missing all. I'm guessing Steve Nash would cringe at the replays.


I wouldn't call it "consistently getting it to the right guy on a fast break" when the person shooting 30% of the time (Tinsley) ranks 330th in the NBA in FG%.

I dunno, I've watched (and in some cases rewatched) all 4 of those games. "7 3-on-1's" seems like a made up stat, or at least something that was arrived at, [cough], subjectively.

Mourning
01-31-2007, 05:23 PM
As much as I've been harping on Tinsley, I want it to be clear that I agee with this. He's shown in the past that he can play well in transition. I think he learned bad habits because he couldn't pass it to half of the starting lineup on the break. He made a nice pass to Granger, and it was one of the rare "fast break" passes to him. My last ounce of faith in Tinsley believes that it's a sign of things to come.

I'm hoping for that too.

Mourning
01-31-2007, 05:29 PM
I dunno, I've watched (and in some cases rewatched) all 4 of those games. "7 3-on-1's" seems like a made up stat, or at least something that was arrived at, [cough], subjectively.

Maybe, he started counting them to disprove some of the "myth" that has been placed on Tinsley by some posters over here. You know the people that blame everyone BUT Tinsley. "It's the offence!", "It's Rick", "It's others not creating", etc, etc.

I want Jamaal to do good like he used to do, but IMO he has lost a lot of what he used to have, I hope he can get it back. Last night he played well, let's hope he can finally keep up the good play. He doesn't have to score 28 the next game. He could score 10 points on decent (doesnt have to be great) shooting and get 7-9 assists, a few steals, a few rebounds and gide the offense in a smooth way, that would make me very happy. That's what I want him to do.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

ABADays
01-31-2007, 05:45 PM
I saw Tinsley and Nash's name in the same sentence !:hmm: ! Never thought I would see that.

imawhat
01-31-2007, 05:48 PM
Maybe, he started counting them to disprove some of the "myth" that has been placed on Tinsley by some posters over here. You know the people that blame everyone BUT Tinsley. "It's the offence!", "It's Rick", "It's others not creating", etc, etc.


I started keeping track when I noticed that Jamaal wouldn't pass the ball to certain teammates. That was 4 games ago. But then again, our offense hasn't clicked all season and the complaints/problems have been wing-related. It could be a simple matter of ball distribution.





I dunno, I've watched (and in some cases rewatched) all 4 of those games. "7 3-on-1's" seems like a made up stat, or at least something that was arrived at, [cough], subjectively.

Subjective stats :). Seriously though, keep stats during the Lakers game. Fast Break opportunities missed, passes per possession, ball distribution, and FG% when Tinsley is in vs. PG when Tinsley is out, etc. See if I'm making things up.

JB's Breakout Year
01-31-2007, 05:53 PM
Subjective stats :).

lol. Yes, stats are often made up. Doesn't make them any more real by attaching some percentage or ratio to them if they didn't really happen...

imawhat
01-31-2007, 05:55 PM
lol. Yes, stats are often made up. Doesn't make them any more real by attaching some percentage or ratio to them if they didn't really happen...

Doesn't make them subjective, either :).

JB's Breakout Year
01-31-2007, 06:21 PM
Seriously though, keep stats during the Lakers game. Fast Break opportunities missed, passes per possession, ball distribution, and FG% when Tinsley is in vs. PG when Tinsley is out, etc. See if I'm making things up.

If keeping stats on players adds to your enjoyment of the game, that is cool. Me, I think I'll just watch the game and root for the Pacers. It should be a good one against Kobe.

I hope to see Murphy and Dunleavey get a little more comfortable in the offense. Anything from Ike is a bonus at this point. It is pretty clear that we are really a work in progress, and the finished product will hopefully look a lot more cohesive than what it does now.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 06:35 PM
I think its becoming clear that Dunlevy/Tinsley is just not a good combination.

I think its way, way, way too early to reach that type of conclusion on the lineup yet. Growing pains require patience.


Part of the reason is for Dunlevy to be effective he kind of has to be the pg on the offensive end.Because of that I would rather have Marquis start and bring Dunlevy off the bench so he'll have a bigger role with playmaking.

Although I agree with this 100%.

I'm not opposed (in spite of my overstated reputation around here of being a Tinsley loyalist) to starting Daniels AND Dunleavy in the backcourt, either. I think both of those guys are pretty good at initiating the offense and aren't any worse than Tinsley on the defensive end.

But I'd like to give the current starting lineup another 20 games or so before rushing to judgement (assuming no other trades are made.)

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2007, 12:37 PM
I have, but I'm still willing to attribute it to unfamiliarity.

I think our ball movement and off-the-ball movement have improved tremendously but I don't know that Tinsley is habitually looking for those opportunities yet. He's used to the stand-around-and-watch performances we've all been seeing.

What I'm really looking forward to are:

1. Dunleavy feeding the post like McKey used to do.
2. Dunleavy/ Granger/ Daniels sharing the ball among three capable, versatile offensive threats.
I agree with you, Anthem and NuffSaid.

It isn't always inside-out, but as I was complaining about Tinsley's shooting way back in December, one of my issues was that late in the clock the go-to play was to call Foster out for the PnR.

Well they still run that high PnR and even to the side a bit as well, except now it's Murphy who can space and hit the shot. That's not inside-out, but it is traditional PG-big play, and that's what the Pacers do.

The wings have always fed off the bigs in this system. That's where you saw the Jack-JO give and go come into play (sorry to say that DunDun hasn't been as effective as Jack on that option, which I think is going to get dropped from the playbook except maybe for Granger).


Also one of my biggest problems with Al, Jack and even Austin when he was here was movement away from the ball. There is clearing out and there is standing around, and they aren't the same thing. You have to space your man if he goes to help. Swing to the open spot to make the defense cover more ground to get back to you, or come to the ball to attack from behind their help effort.

DunDun is much better at this than Jack or Al were (not at all basically). I think Tins and JO (and probably Rick as well) are figuring out what these guys can offer. The first few weeks you are going to notice the stuff they don't do that you were used to doing before they joined the team.

But over time you'd hope that their own strengths and types of shots/moves start fitting into what comes to mind when Tins/JO have the ball.

On court chemistry is not overrated, it's critical IMO and part of the reason I wasn't a huge fan of doing the trade in the first place. It's done now, so best to just sort it out as quickly as possible.


Quis to start over Dunleavy - I agree with this, though both are good creators for others. Really the rotation should typically feature Q and Dun on court together at some point as Tins rotates out. However so far Rick has turned to Armstrong a ton due to Quis being out and the response the team shows to DA's energy (despite his wildly inconsistant play and bad 3pt shooting).

At some point I'd like to see Rick be able to back down DA's playing time, and hopefully Quis and Dun will allow that to happen.