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Unclebuck
01-30-2007, 10:24 PM
I watched the game on TV and don't really have much to say. But I am in a cranky mood though

Remember back in October all the "fans" (not in this forum) who said they will never go to another Pacers game again as long as Jackson is on the team. I inferred that statement to mean two things. 1) when Jackson was gone they would come back. 2) that those "fans" used to go to games but stopped going because of Jackson.

Well it is great to see all those fans packing Conseco once again. The crowd tonight would have been a small crowd by Atlanta Hawks standards. 12,600.



Oh well.

I think Marshall has a great chance of being a really, really goo defender some day

Young
01-30-2007, 10:27 PM
Well it is great to see all those fans packing Conseco once again. The crowd tonight would have been a small crowd by Atlanta Hawks standards. 12,600.


I think that if the Pacers win in the playoffs, that would all change. Does anyone know if our attendance increased the year after we lost to Detroit in the Coference Finals? I know that was the year of the brawl so it would be hard to judge but i'm sure we had a few home games.

colonialspacers
01-30-2007, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't read too much into the attendence. The weather is terrible (which I believe can affect attendence), the Colts are all the rage right now, and we were playing the Celtics.

Unclebuck
01-30-2007, 10:33 PM
Tinsley played a really good game tonight, he and JO were the difference


As far as the weather goes. It is late January in Indiana - seems like a pretty typical night. 14 degrees it is winter - unless there is a huge snow storm I don't see how a little cold weather should keep people away. (Of course I'll never forget an excuse from a playoff game a few years back. People didn't go because the weather was too nice. As I said at the time OK so people don't go when the weather is bad and they don't go when it is good. I don't understand how the fact the Colts play in 5 days should have any impact on attenance.


Rommie: the attendance went up about 700 per game in the brawl year and some of that was the increase in pre sales due to ECF and 61 win team. But also Reggie announced his retirement in early February and attendance increased because of that.

I don't want to focus everything on the attendance, but 12,600 shocked me

bnd45
01-30-2007, 10:42 PM
Well we beat a bad team at home like we were supposed to. I'd be feeling real good if we had sustained the 20 pt. lead and been able to emtpy the bench tonight.

Jamaal had it going tonight and played his best game in quite some time (He was AWFUL during the late Celtic when he must have lost interest)

There's not really a lot to breakdown from this one. Just a much needed win.

BlueNGold
01-30-2007, 11:02 PM
Remember back in October all the "fans" (not in this forum) who said they will never go to another Pacers game again as long as Jackson is on the team. I inferred that statement to mean two things. 1) when Jackson was gone they would come back. 2) that those "fans" used to go to games but stopped going because of Jackson.

Regardless of who made that statement, it has nothing to do with the drop in attendance. It's just highly unlikely many of these "fans" who have vacated Conseco post on the internet very much.

The "fans" that have left are not coming back soon. People attend games for different reasons...often not because they are hard core Pacer fans. They have tickets to take their clients out, for example. Many of those people are long gone because the team became an embarrassment to the general public (i.e. bad business) Other people attend games because of status. Now, some of them don't want to be associated with the club. Three years is a long time for a fair weather fan. Some of them have simply got fed up with the team and have changed the channel.

Fortunately, things will get better from here on out.

Ragnar
01-30-2007, 11:09 PM
From the TV it looked terrible. The first thought I had was we were playing in Atlanta. I dont understand the fans staying away right now. We are winning more games than we are losing and Jack is gone.

BlueNGold
01-30-2007, 11:11 PM
From the TV it looked terrible. The first thought I had was we were playing in Atlanta. I dont understand the fans staying away right now. We are winning more games than we are losing and Jack is gone.

You don't lose fans overnight...and they don't return the next day. This should not be a shock to anyone. I think we all should be thankful it's not worse.

Sirius
01-30-2007, 11:13 PM
two things...

wow dunleavy sucks.

and wow, troy murphy sucks pretty bad too.

lol~

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-30-2007, 11:20 PM
Tinsley had a really good game tonight and if he played like this every night I could live with him. And I dont mean just his shots hitting. He wasnt forcing bad shots as much. He started out with some forced shots, and ended in the 4th with some bad shots. But during the rest of the game he was sharing the ball real well, with everyone, not just JO. He still gave away a lot of dribble penetration but made up for it with some good steals. He attacked the rim a lot instead of just settling for the running jumper like usual. He also did a good job of pushing the tempo and the team actually looked really good running the break at points in the game, of course some of this could be attributed to Boston's terrible D.

Speaking of Boston, I dont watch them that much but I was thoroughly unimpressed with Delonte West. Anyone who wants to replace Tinsley with this guy is crazy. Was he sick or something? I think I heard the commentators say that. Is he usually better than this? Even so, I dont think he would be much of an improvement over Tinsley.

Rawle looked a little bit more comfortable but I still cant wait for Marquis to get back.

How about Fosters jumper from the top of the key, did anyone else catch this? He didnt hesitate to shoot it and as a result he didnt look as clumsy as usual and his shooting form looked real good. He shot another one towards the end of the game that he missed, but I didnt cringe when he shot it and I could of swore it was going in.

Finally, I wished we could have seen more of Ike. He should have played in the 4th, but unfortunately we had that embarassing collaspse.

Oh well a wins a win.

Unclebuck
01-30-2007, 11:29 PM
Delonte West had the flu and was clearly struggling just running down the court once or twice.

Edit: where is everyone tonight. The game thread was very quiet - this post game thread is dead. Surely the weather kept everyone inside watching TV. Maybe everyone was watching "American Idol"

aero
01-30-2007, 11:49 PM
Attendance: 12,641

i understand its cold and all but come on now... *shakes head*

MagicRat
01-30-2007, 11:54 PM
I'd post something about the game, but I'm too sad about the apparent break-up of the Gentlemen Jugglers. Sure the guy hit the 3 pointer while on the giant unicyle, but it's just not the same as a solo act.......:cry:

Isaac
01-30-2007, 11:57 PM
3 cheers for Tinsley tonight.

Having Troy Murphy has made my respect for Jeff Foster go up so much. I knew Jeff was a great defender, but I didn't really realize how good he was. I know Al Jefferson's stats were great tonight, and he was great, but Jeff really neutralized him. Jeff kept him from really going off on us tonight. He really defends all kinds of big men well.

I think we should go back to starting Jeff and bring Murph off the bench for a little bit of a scoring punch. I don't like Murph/Dun both in the starting lineup. I think Murphy would do better in the second unit with Quis on the floor at the same time. At the same time I do think Murphy and Tinsley are starting to develop something together. The high pick and roll they run is pretty effective, and Jamaal has been making the correct decision consistently in that play.

We need to throw out that play that JO used to run with Jack where he gets the ball in the low post and then Jack runs by him using him as a screener then JO sometimes dumps him the ball and sometimes faces up and goes one on one. We've tried to run it with him and Dunleavy at least twice a game, and it just doesn't work. We need to just run plays that spread the floor. That 2 man game doesn't work with Dunleavy.

Danny is getting more and more comfortable every game. I know he got in to foul trouble tonight and was frustrated, but he really was called for some terrible fouls, I thought he played pretty well. Just wait untill playoff time when he's really used to his role as the number 2 scorer. I truly believe he can be a legit 20 ppg scorer.

Eindar
01-31-2007, 12:29 AM
3 cheers for Tinsley tonight.

Having Troy Murphy has made my respect for Jeff Foster go up so much. I knew Jeff was a great defender, but I didn't really realize how good he was. I know Al Jefferson's stats were great tonight, and he was great, but Jeff really neutralized him. Jeff kept him from really going off on us tonight. He really defends all kinds of big men well.

I think we should go back to starting Jeff and bring Murph off the bench for a little bit of a scoring punch. I don't like Murph/Dun both in the starting lineup. I think Murphy would do better in the second unit with Quis on the floor at the same time. At the same time I do think Murphy and Tinsley are starting to develop something together. The high pick and roll they run is pretty effective, and Jamaal has been making the correct decision consistently in that play.

We need to throw out that play that JO used to run with Jack where he gets the ball in the low post and then Jack runs by him using him as a screener then JO sometimes dumps him the ball and sometimes faces up and goes one on one. We've tried to run it with him and Dunleavy at least twice a game, and it just doesn't work. We need to just run plays that spread the floor. That 2 man game doesn't work with Dunleavy.

Danny is getting more and more comfortable every game. I know he got in to foul trouble tonight and was frustrated, but he really was called for some terrible fouls, I thought he played pretty well. Just wait untill playoff time when he's really used to his role as the number 2 scorer. I truly believe he can be a legit 20 ppg scorer.

One thing I like about Carlisle is that he's flexible in terms of the offensive sets that the team runs. He has said in the past that the players and himself determine what plays are working and what isn't, and often change/discard the plays that aren't working.

CableKC
01-31-2007, 12:40 AM
I was looking at the Box score and noticed 2 things:

1 ) Dunleavy and Murphy seem to be 4th/5th scoring options over the last 2 games....almost non-existent...at least from an offensive POV. I haven't been able to watch the last 2 games....so I don't know what's happening. I know that Murphy was rebounding....but are they at least being effective without the ball?

2 ) We really played some solid defense in the 2nd and 3rd QTRs. The Pacers kept the Cs to 26 total points during that stetch.

waterjater
01-31-2007, 02:05 AM
2 ) We really played some solid defense in the 2nd and 3rd QTRs. The Pacers kept the Cs to 26 total points during that stetch.

What's strange is Carlisle typically puts in his quote un quote defensive unit when we get big leads......YET, we always blow them with that excellent defensive unit.

Bottom line is...a line up with just defensive players isn't nearly as good as the regulars who play together and know where the help needs to come from. Just can't understand why he (Carlisle) stills does this as it always fails. Our normal line-ups play so much better defense than these make shift protect the lead combos he uses late. Just see Qtrs 2 and 3 as you mentioned above.

Water

rexnom
01-31-2007, 04:21 AM
Tinsley played a really good game tonight, he and JO were the difference


As far as the weather goes. It is late January in Indiana - seems like a pretty typical night. 14 degrees it is winter - unless there is a huge snow storm I don't see how a little cold weather should keep people away. (Of course I'll never forget an excuse from a playoff game a few years back. People didn't go because the weather was too nice. As I said at the time OK so people don't go when the weather is bad and they don't go when it is good. I don't understand how the fact the Colts play in 5 days should have any impact on attenance.


Rommie: the attendance went up about 700 per game in the brawl year and some of that was the increase in pre sales due to ECF and 61 win team. But also Reggie announced his retirement in early February and attendance increased because of that.

I don't want to focus everything on the attendance, but 12,600 shocked me
I hate to keep going back to this but you should have heard the Celtics announcers. They were shocked. They were talking about how the fieldhouse had had some amazing atmosphere in the past and how it was almost always full. Tommy then made some joke about how everyone is Miami but he was corrected when the other two guys wondered how ALL of Indianapolis's notioriously loud and cheerful basketball fans disappeared.

I was stunned. I had no idea it was this bad. I'm pretty sure Rajon Rondo had more fans show up from Kentucky than we did. I do, however, see that it might take a while to get the fans back.

Btw, I want to call attention to four things that I feel should be especially noted.

1.) I really like Rawle Marshall. Not only can he defend well and has some crazy length going on but he got to the line 12 times (sure, he didn't shoot it well but still). 12 times! (That's more than JO or Tinsley).

2.) Troy Murphy and Jeff Foster are really important to this team. Both need to stay and both need to play. They bring so many things between them. Jeff's been looking better and better now that he isn't under pressure to score. Murphy will get better on some minute things but he helps the team SO much on offense. The lane has opened up so much for guys like Tinsley, Danny, Marquis, and Marshall it's crazy. Not to mention JO. The Celtics announcers pointed out that JO and Jeff have an uncanny chemistry and JO knows where Jeff is when double teamed, just like he knew where Brad was. Have patience with Murphy. Soon JO will develop some chemistry with him and he'll be good for 12-15 each night off of gimme baskets. Also, some of these picks Murphy sets for Tinsley...wow. It really helps his shot. Even if he doesn't just come off the pick and pull up, he can get a big guy switched on him then just break him down.

3.) This is how Tinsley needs to play. I think he can play this way too. He just needs to stay within the offense and take shots when they give them to him. He made some fantastic passes too. It's astounding, I've seen this team develop more chemistry these games since the trade then they did all season long with Al and Jack.

4.) There was this amazing play where Dunleavy had the ball, JO came for the high screen and they decided to trap Dunleavy who easily found a wide open JO who nailed the shot. When I saw this play, I melted in front of my TV. Just melted...oh, if only his shots could start going down too...

croxia
01-31-2007, 05:16 AM
im really disappointed today's game

1) murph & dun's deffense are really horrible

2) tin have to control his mind. celtics fought back for final minute because of him

3) team should try to offense with murph's face-up play

rexnom
01-31-2007, 07:26 AM
im really disappointed today's game

1) murph & dun's deffense are really horrible

2) tin have to control his mind. celtics fought back for final minute because of him

3) team should try to offense with murph's face-up play
True, Tinsley got that tech, which was disappointing. Then again, Scalibrine was being really dirty. But there at the end it seemed as if Tinsley had had enough and he completely took over. He made sure that he got the ball so he could handle it or pass it across half court. Then he wanted the ball so that he could step up and hit those free throws and he did...10/11 for the night. Finally he ended the game with a beautiful strip and was classy enough not to score on that final possession when it was just him and the basket (and he had a chance to go for 30). Younger Tinsley might not have stepped up and done that. The Celtics announcers were raving about his game tonight and his veteran attitude and they said they were hoping Telfair could make similar adjustments to his streetball game.

LoneGranger33
01-31-2007, 08:33 AM
Rawle Marshall needs to be un-unleashed. He's crazy out there. You would think he just learned how to dunk the way he plays. I'm worried for his health and the health of his teammates and the opponent. God help us!

Putnam
01-31-2007, 08:36 AM
The Star headline this morning calls it an ugly win. I don't agree.

I'd rather see the Pacers put opponents away in the 3rd, and then coast to victory. A 7-point margin at the end is fine, and I dn't care when the points were scored.

Of course, the Pacers' play in the 1st and 4th quarters wasn't good, and the Pacers need to play 48 good minutes at all five positions to beat better teams. But it was a win, and those are never ugly.

Putnam
01-31-2007, 08:52 AM
I wouldn't read too much into the attendence. The weather is terrible (which I believe can affect attendence),

Basketball is a winter-time sport, and most of the season is played during winter. The weather here right now isn't terrible -- temps in the 20s (-3 Centigrade) which is pretty normal.

Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Detroit, Denver, Philadelphia: they are all in cold weather cities and they are getting better attendance than Indy. I agree with UncleBuck that we do have an acute problem.

I am one of those who stayed away out of dislike for Jackson, et al. I went to only one game prior to the trade. I've been to two since the trade, and I'm going again next Monday. But I'm just one guy.

Ragnar
01-31-2007, 09:42 AM
I can actually see where some of the people who usually sit it the lower bowl may also have tickets to the superbowl, and may be taking a week in Miami. When I went to the game against Chicago and had row 10 seats the people in front of me were comparing their superbowl tickets.

able
01-31-2007, 10:10 AM
I am somewhat amazed, we get a clear W, admittedly as expected, but with outstanding play from our 2 core players, JO and Tins (who both are regularly maligned, one more then the other) and all we can discuss is the attandence.

Well ok, about ATT: those who weren't there, missed something, and by not being there, loose the right to be spoken about.

NEXT:

I liked how we went back to solid D in the 2nd and 3rd Q
I did not really like how we lost it sorta in the 4th, but this is the NBA, teams will try and make a run, players do loose sharpness when longer on the bench (the "diminishing of our lead started early in the 4th when the bench was still in) and it took time before RC decided to re-insert all starters.

I'm a bit amazed that he did not give Ike some extended minutes, but we'll see when that happens.

What (outside of the regular nagging about these players here) amazes me most however is how complete these 2 players have become/ are becoming.
it is no longer "just the ast" or "just the st" or (in JO's case) "just the RB or Pts" but they have an overall complete game, stats that speak, none at the top, but solid all around.

high Rb (for a PG), good Ast, High (%) scoring, high St low (still to high)TO and so on, and for JO; high Ast (regularity now, despite ppl here always saying he "can not" pass the ball) high pts rb and bs.

Full lines instead of "leader" in one.
It shows that they are serious in the "it's all about the team" mentality and I think that one way or another this is the biggest profit we made on the trade.

We are showing signs of getting a lot better and I must admit that the discussion last night of the commentators about the 4 teams in the East that are "going to decide it" did not include the P's, but on the other hand I love the "below the radar" thing, look at what it did for the Colts :D

Dr. Goldfoot
01-31-2007, 10:15 AM
The last three seasons the Pacers have been decidedly mediocre. The average Hoosier has rarely heard any positive reporting on the team. The faces we once knew are gone and have been replaced with a less star studded cast. There is no buzz.

Meanwhile across town. There's this quarterback who story is intriguing. His father played in the NFL and his brother does now. He a reigning MVP and a sure lock for the Hall of Fame. Oh yeah he's passing the ball to one of the greatest wide receivers ever to play who's also a sure lock for the Hall of Fame and they're on the verge of being the best passing duo of all time. The Colts won their first 13 games last year and their first 9 this year. They've been setting a new record every week for what seems like an eternity. They're playing in the freakin' Super Bowl this weekend.

Throw in an exciting year for Indiana college basketball. Butler currently ranks 13th in the AP's top 25. Notre Dame is 21st. IU just dropped out of the top 25. Purdue is 14-7. Purdue and Notre Dame also had some football success playing in bowl games in late December.

Plus The Colts are the city's new crush. It's really not that hard to figure out. The players represent the city better. They are far more talented. There are better personalities. There is much more success.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 10:29 AM
It wasn't a very inspirinig win, but had we blown the game can you imagine the reactions on here?

They did their jobs. Period. We haven't always been able to say that about them in the past couple of seasons.

We won that game because our two best players were the two best players on the court.

This team will need several weeks, post-trade, to gel. The idea of benching Murphy after just a couple of games for "Linus' security blanket" is just counterproductive. Give JO and Troy time to work out on-court chemistry, spacing, etc., and I think we'll all really like that lineup and I think we'll all like Foster in the sixth-man, "give the team a spark" role that he was made for.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-31-2007, 10:35 AM
I thought Jammal had an excellent game despite the second half of the 4th. He completely schooled all three of the Celtics point guards, sick or not. They got little penetration thru the first three quarters on Tinsley. Armstrong was a different story. They gave him some of his own medicine and attcked him with speed burning right by him a number of times. JO played as usual. I thought Dunleavy and Granger played lethargic. If Granger is gonna our #2 he has to be more assertive. I'm not sure he's ready for that burden. Mike Dunleavy may not be our answer at the two. I'm more comfortable with Daniels at this point. Troy and Jeff ,when combined, have given us a solid center. Whether you will by 20 or 5, it's still a win.

odeez
01-31-2007, 11:31 AM
Man if TINS would play like that more often we would be in good shape. Both him and JO played very well, great job! Good game by the Pacers, though we beat a team we should beat, so on to the next.

I was looking at the schedule and Febuary should be called Pacers vs The Western Conference. 9 out of eleven games are against Western Conference teams. The good thing about it is that we are home for almost all of those games. Very important we play well this month. I would love to see us move up in the Eastern Conference.

Go Pacers!!!

odeez
01-31-2007, 11:37 AM
I thought Jammal had an excellent game despite the second half of the 4th. He completely schooled all three of the Celtics point guards, sick or not. They got little penetration thru the first three quarters on Tinsley. Armstrong was a different story. They gave him some of his own medicine and attcked him with speed burning right by him a number of times. JO played as usual. I thought Dunleavy and Granger played lethargic. If Granger is gonna our #2 he has to be more assertive. I'm not sure he's ready for that burden. Mike Dunleavy may not be our answer at the two. I'm more comfortable with Daniels at this point. Troy and Jeff ,when combined, have given us a solid center. Whether you will by 20 or 5, it's still a win.

I agree with you on Granger. He is still a little reserved, he needs to shoot more and yes be assertive. But we have to remember he is only in his second year. I hope someone his telling him he is the man and that he need to shoot more. I also like Daniels, I think he is the X factor right now.

DUN DUN is streaky and I think we are seeing him on the downside right now. But I looked at the box from last night and he only took 6 shots. I think maybe we run a few more plays for him, he seems to do well off of screens.

You are also right about Murph and Foster at Center.

ABADays
01-31-2007, 11:48 AM
The attendance will pick up. You have a trade that coincided with the start of the NFL playoffs so the focus right now is on the Colts. That's not unusual. As far as Tommy boy's statement, tell him to bring a better product to the Fieldhouse. Excuse me, a lot better product.

You know, if you have a chance to pay the same price and see either the Pistons or the Celtics who are you going to choose to spend your dollars on?

Just a quick example. UB - how many Colts games have you attended? My guess is none - but that doesn't mean you don't support them. You just choose to spend your dollars on the Pacers. After the past 2+ years and the playoffs - it's just going to take a little time but I'm sure it will come around.

CableKC
01-31-2007, 12:47 PM
DUN DUN is streaky and I think we are seeing him on the downside right now. But I looked at the box from last night and he only took 6 shots. I think maybe we run a few more plays for him, he seems to do well off of screens.

Hmmmm...this sounds like a familiar description of some player that we just shipped off. I haven't been able to see the last 2 games.....but what have all of you noticed about what Dunleavy has been doing ( other then showing up as an non-factor on the box score ) when he is on the floor?

I guess the main difference is that SJax mostly tries to shoot his way out of his streakiness....whereas Dunleavy ( which I am guessing here ) is smart enough to either find other ways to be effective on the floor ( either by getting teammates involved or getting to the FT line more often ) while not taking bad shots.


Man if TINS would play like that more often we would be in good shape. Both him and JO played very well, great job! Good game by the Pacers, though we beat a team we should beat, so on to the next.

Despite scoring an astounding 64% from the field and getting to the line 11 times....what's interesting about this Post-Game Thread is how little was brought up that Tinsley took so many shots.

Bear in mind that I'm not complaining that he scored 28 points....cuz I'm glad that he was able to do so well offensively.....but we aren't lucky enough to play the Celtics for the remaining 37 games of the season at home. In many other post-game threads, we have brought up concerns about Tinsley transforming into "Mel-Mel the abuser" that takes and ( often ) missEs too many shots rather then getting his teammates ( like Granger ) involved in the offense.

My question to many of you is:

Do you prefer this "Shoot first and pass second" PG version of Tinsley that we saw in this game that took 14 FGA ( whereas the next closest player took only 9 FGA )?

Do you prefer the "Pass first and shoot second" PG version of Tinsley?

or

Is the answer somewhere between?

Given the unliklihood of somehow upgrading our starting PG situation.....I think that this aspect of Tinsley's game ( recognizing when to shoot and when to pass ) is important in determining how well Tinsley recognizes this and therefore how effectively our offense is run ( ultimately one of the factors in how well the Pacers will do ) .

When Tinsley is clearly being matched up ( there's that word again ) against Guards that aren't defending him well or able to contain him on the offensive end....we don't mind as much when Tinsley becomes a "Shoot first and pass second" PG. But when he is clearly being outmatched and properly defended by the opposing Guard.....we seem to prefer a "Pass first and shoot second" PG simply cuz Tinsley isn't that great of a shooter.

As to which PG that we have running the offense, I think that it heavily depends on Tinsley being smart enough to recognize situations when he should be a "Pass first" PG and when he should be the "Shoot first" PG.

RWB
01-31-2007, 01:51 PM
You know, if you have a chance to pay the same price and see either the Pistons or the Celtics who are you going to choose to spend your dollars on?


Good point ABA. Not only that, but there's no sense of urgency to see them when you have 41 chances. Unlike a show or concert that only comes around once a year attending a Pacer game does not seem that special to a casual fan. Tickets for decent seats are too high. Now you can say all seats are pretty good, but there would be many who disagree that 15 rows up in the balcony are worth $35 a piece.