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DaSMASH
01-30-2007, 09:50 AM
While I agree that EVERYONE’s opinion is valued, what I can’t agree on is the Rick Carlisle & Donnie Walsh bashing that goes on here by all the couch coaches.:mad:

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I guess it is a hard concept with the view sitting in your family room, then the view sitting on the Pacer bench. :confused:

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First lets rehash Sundays game with the Pistons. I’ve seen complaints that Rick shouldn’t have put Murphy on Rasheed Wallace. Where that might be true, remember that Wallace is a very hard guard for anyone in the NBA, just not Troy Murphy. I’ve seen him school Jermaine and Foster also. What isn’t happining is the help side defense sliding over to block out the weak side rebounder for put backs. That was Granger’s job. Danny may be shooting the ball better, but his defense awareness still isn’t where it needs to be. It also doesn’t help when Tinsley is constantly beat by the opposing point guard off the dribble and with the short screen pick and roll. Jamal gives up entirely to quickly on 95% of all defensive plays. One other thing , when Foster is in the lineup the Pacers are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end. To me the idea of the game is to score before the other team does, and continue to do so. Jeff Foster rebounds and hustles, but gives you only an occasional putback and dunk off a pick and roll. Once you clear up the rotation problems the defense will be much, much better.
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When I look at this team, I’m beginning to see the beginning of a decent basketball IQ. That was something that wasn’t here when Harrington & Jackson were here. Lets also be real here for a minute….Jamal Tinsleys basketball IQ is right there with Harrington and Jackson. Where Jamal plays decent in the first 3 quarters he folds like a cheap Hallmark card in fourth quarters.:rolleyes: His basketball maturity is still that of a toddler that is very selfish with his toys….won’t share them when the adults are around. Crunch time is the fourth quarter in a close game. The reason Tinsley is playing then is because Walsh HAS told Carlisle to play him and make everyone in the NBA try to believe that Tinsley is a viable point guard.(TRADE PURPOSES);) Jamal needs to be on a team with a defensive presence behind him. Right now O’neal is a presence, but Granger is still to raw of a defensive player (31 mins per game, 4 rebounds). He does not block out nor does he anticipate shot length very well. Hopefully that will come with more experience.

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Last but not least we are not the Mavericks or the Suns. We are the Indiana Pacers. We do not have the luxury of attracting free agents because we have a state income tax (unlike Texas and Florida) and cold weather in the wintertime. We are a small market with very passionate fan base, but with owners who are practical and put out a good product every year. Donnie Walsh & the Pacers have built this team and its success over the years through the draft and shrewd trades. Every once and a while there will be a Johnathan Bender, Clark Kellogg, Steve Stipanovich that show a lot of promise but get injured early in their careers. On the flip side there will be Rik Smits, Reggie Millers, Chuck Persons, Dale & Antonio Davis’s. Trades that bring in Detlef Shrempf’s, Sam Mitchells, Jermaine O’Neals, Ron Artests, Jalen Roses, Mark Jacksons, Brad Millers, Troy Murphys, Ike Diogus and Mike Dunleavy’s. Donnie knows wat he’s doing and is the BEST at what he does. For any of you to question that only shows many of us on the Digest not to take your opinions very seriously.

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The bottom line is that this was a FANTASTIC trade that we just made with Golden State. Each team got a little better. There are obviously more trades to come because the Pacers are still not contenders for the NBA championship…eastern conference, yes, big dance…NO, not until we get a point guard and a defensive presence in the middle to come off the bench. Another shooter wouldn’t hurt.

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So be a fan, and if you think can do the job better then any of the people that the Pacers Braintrust (excluding Larry “I’m worthless” Bird) then APPLY .:-p

Will Galen
01-30-2007, 11:19 AM
I think Bird does have the respect of the players and he is good at picking them, otherwise I've had doubts, but nothing I can remember right now. Why do you think Bird is worthless?

I hope Donny signs another contract with the Simons!

DaSMASH
01-30-2007, 01:40 PM
Personally, this is my opinion of Larry Bird.

As a high school , collegiate and Professional PLAYER he is easily one of the greatest that ever played the game...Larry had the natural instinct and skills.

As a coach, asssistant GM-player personel he does not have the intuition or the "out side the box thinking" that is required. What he sees through his eyes as far as talent is concerened is mind boggelling (Austin Croshere, Johnathan Bender, Sarunas Jasacavicius, Maceo Baston).

Yes, Bird has the respect (limited-see Artest) because he's Larry Legend. Players respect the stars that they grew up watching. Some of the younger guys even realize its becasue of players like Bird that they have the contracts they have.

I was there the day that Larry Brown left the Pacers and very quickly the franchise announced that Larry Bird was going to be the next coach. I actually heard this that at that time the Pacers were more worried about advanced season ticket sales for a new Conseco Fieldhouse that was to be opened in a year. Bird, like Isiah was brought into the franchise to do nothing more then pique curiosity and spike ticket sales. Bird did know his limitaions of coaching so he brought in Rick Carlisle to handle the offense and Dick Harter to work with the defense. Both these guys made Larry look good, but it was actually Donnie who brought in the assistant coaches to cover rthe fact that Bird was NO tactician. May I remind you that the Pacers only had 2 assistants where most franchises have entourages of 4 or 5 now.

If you look at Danny Ainge (Celtics 12-31) And Kevin Mchale (T-Wolves 22-22) neither are tearing up the NBA. Neither of them know what to do, much like Larry legend. Great players don't always make great judges of talent, especially those with egos.

The bottom line is that Larry Bird is a CELTIC and Isiah Thomas was a PISTON, Donnie Walsh has been with the franchise since the early to mid 80's and has done more for this franchise in the respect of keeping them competitive then anyone in the history of the franchise and that includes Slick Leonard (trading Alex English for George McGinnis) (selecting ) (Trading qaway Don Buse for Ricky Sobers and Billy Knight for Adrian Dantley and Mike Bantom in their primes) (trading the #1 pick for the #3 pick in the 1978 NBA draft and taking Rick Robey instead of Larry Bird, we also got Johnny Davis)(Adrian Dantley & Dave Robish for Earl Tatum and James Edwards)...I could go on....

When you really look at the Big picture of the Pacers what has LArry brought into the Franchise that positive besides his reputation as a player?

Thats where I have a problem with Mr. Bird

colonialspacers
01-30-2007, 01:47 PM
While I agree that EVERYONE’s opinion is valued, what I can’t agree on is the Rick Carlisle & Donnie Walsh bashing that goes on here by all the couch coaches.:mad:

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I guess it is a hard concept with the view sitting in your family room, then the view sitting on the Pacer bench. :confused:

<o:p></o:p>
First lets rehash Sundays game with the Pistons. I’ve seen complaints that Rick shouldn’t have put Murphy on Rasheed Wallace. Where that might be true, remember that Wallace is a very hard guard for anyone in the NBA, just not Troy Murphy. I’ve seen him school Jermaine and Foster also. What isn’t happining is the help side defense sliding over to block out the weak side rebounder for put backs. That was Granger’s job. Danny may be shooting the ball better, but his defense awareness still isn’t where it needs to be. It also doesn’t help when Tinsley is constantly beat by the opposing point guard off the dribble and with the short screen pick and roll. Jamal gives up entirely to quickly on 95% of all defensive plays. One other thing , when Foster is in the lineup the Pacers are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end. To me the idea of the game is to score before the other team does, and continue to do so. Jeff Foster rebounds and hustles, but gives you only an occasional putback and dunk off a pick and roll. Once you clear up the rotation problems the defense will be much, much better.
<o:p></o:p>
When I look at this team, I’m beginning to see the beginning of a decent basketball IQ. That was something that wasn’t here when Harrington & Jackson were here. Lets also be real here for a minute….Jamal Tinsleys basketball IQ is right there with Harrington and Jackson. Where Jamal plays decent in the first 3 quarters he folds like a cheap Hallmark card in fourth quarters.:rolleyes: His basketball maturity is still that of a toddler that is very selfish with his toys….won’t share them when the adults are around. Crunch time is the fourth quarter in a close game. The reason Tinsley is playing then is because Walsh HAS told Carlisle to play him and make everyone in the NBA try to believe that Tinsley is a viable point guard.(TRADE PURPOSES);) Jamal needs to be on a team with a defensive presence behind him. Right now O’neal is a presence, but Granger is still to raw of a defensive player (31 mins per game, 4 rebounds). He does not block out nor does he anticipate shot length very well. Hopefully that will come with more experience.

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Last but not least we are not the Mavericks or the Suns. We are the Indiana Pacers. We do not have the luxury of attracting free agents because we have a state income tax (unlike Texas and Florida) and cold weather in the wintertime. We are a small market with very passionate fan base, but with owners who are practical and put out a good product every year. Donnie Walsh & the Pacers have built this team and its success over the years through the draft and shrewd trades. Every once and a while there will be a Johnathan Bender, Clark Kellogg, Steve Stipanovich that show a lot of promise but get injured early in their careers. On the flip side there will be Rik Smits, Reggie Millers, Chuck Persons, Dale & Antonio Davis’s. Trades that bring in Detlef Shrempf’s, Sam Mitchells, Jermaine O’Neals, Ron Artests, Jalen Roses, Mark Jacksons, Brad Millers, Troy Murphys, Ike Diogus and Mike Dunleavy’s. Donnie knows wat he’s doing and is the BEST at what he does. For any of you to question that only shows many of us on the Digest not to take your opinions very seriously.

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The bottom line is that this was a FANTASTIC trade that we just made with Golden State. Each team got a little better. There are obviously more trades to come because the Pacers are still not contenders for the NBA championship…eastern conference, yes, big dance…NO, not until we get a point guard and a defensive presence in the middle to come off the bench. Another shooter wouldn’t hurt.

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So be a fan, and if you think can do the job better then any of the people that the Pacers Braintrust (excluding Larry “I’m worthless” Bird) then APPLY .:-p

I agree with you that the Golden State trade made both the Pacers and the Warriors a little bit better. However, that doesn't mean that me, nor anyone else on this board, is going to simply worship every move the TPTB make for the Pacers, like you pointed out, they have made mistakes. How starry eyed are you to think that there will be a time when fans will simply take everything TPTB do at face value and don't offer their opinion? The majority of Pacer fans did offer their opinion of the Pacer team pre GS trade, which is displayed by declining revenue and attendence this year. I'm not saying that was the only reason for the trade, but there simply wasn't a winning product on the floor and the fans voiced their opinion regarding that.

Just because Rasheed has schooled JO and Foster in the past doesn't mean that they have a better (not necessarily guarenteed) chance at containing him in a way better than Murphy. Carly keeping Murph on Rasheed pisses me off, but it would **** me off more if he had chosen to do so in the postseason, maybe there is some logic to the idea that he was giving Murph a wake up call for what he needs to do (hit the gym and improve his defense) in order to play the role Carly wants him to play on the team.

RWB
01-30-2007, 01:59 PM
As a coach, asssistant GM-player personel he does not have the intuition or the "out side the box thinking" that is required. What he sees through his eyes as far as talent is concerened is mind boggelling (Austin Croshere, Johnathan Bender, Sarunas Jasacavicius, Maceo Baston).



Smash, you can't place the blame on Bird for the selection of Austin or Bender. Donnie has always had the final say and I do believe he has a big enough pair to tell Bird no.

I'm not trying to defend Bird, because I've never been a fan and it has more to do with being a man off the court (ie: daughter).

Until Donnie steps down and let's loose of the reins it's hard to say Bird has been a bust. In some respect Donnie was smart enough to bring in a coach like LBrown to change this team and yet uneducated LBird was smart enough to bring in assistants to make it to the finals. Sounds kind of similar to me.

colonialspacers
01-30-2007, 02:06 PM
As a coach, asssistant GM-player personel he does not have the intuition or the "out side the box thinking" that is required. What he sees through his eyes as far as talent is concerened is mind boggelling (Austin Croshere, Johnathan Bender, Sarunas Jasacavicius, Maceo Baston).


I agree with you on Croshere and Bender, but I think Saranus' failure to be effective in Indiana had a lot to do with RC playing him out of position, and I also think Maceo would be a great roleplayer if Carly would find a way to work him into the rotation more.

That being said, I think you need to pin this on Larry more in the context of a failure for the assistant GM and the coach to see eye to eye on the proper way to utilize certain players that LB that brought in.

DaSMASH
01-30-2007, 02:07 PM
I don't want anyone to "worship" any NBA front office. The Pacers and Donnie Walsh are far from perfect, but who else is there out there that could do a better job that isn't already working?

Same could be said about Carlisle, whos out there thats a better coach that isn't already working?

Let me remind you that at a cruical point in the game Jermaine fouled Rasheed shooting a three pointer...wheres the basketball IQ there? Wallace is a hard matchup problem becasue of his upper body lenght and the fact that he shoots the ball very well. Add a player like Chris Webber ,whos still a great shooter within 10 feet, who Jermaine kept coming off of to cover for Tinsleys passive defense. :-o

As far as Murpheys strenghts...he like MDJ and Ike are still learning the offense and the defense (Something they didn't and still don't play in GST). This is a project that is going to take at least 25 games and another trade before it really clicks.:cool:

Isn't it time for Larry to go to Europe to find another "ICON"?:D

RWB
01-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Isn't it time for Larry to go to Europe to find another "ICON"?:D

Not really, I'd rather have Bird work with the guys like the Rifleman has with Danny Granger.

colonialspacers
01-30-2007, 02:17 PM
I don't want anyone to "worship" any NBA front office. The Pacers and Donnie Walsh are far from perfect, but who else is there out there that could do a better job that isn't already working?

Same could be said about Carlisle, whos out there thats a better coach that isn't already working?

Let me remind you that at a cruical point in the game Jermaine fouled Rasheed shooting a three pointer...wheres the basketball IQ there? Wallace is a hard matchup problem becasue of his upper body lenght and the fact that he shoots the ball very well. Add a player like Chris Webber ,whos still a great shooter within 10 feet, who Jermaine kept coming off of to cover for Tinsleys passive defense. :-o

As far as Murpheys strenghts...he like MDJ and Ike are still learning the offense and the defense (Something they didn't and still don't play in GST). This is a project that is going to take at least 25 games and another trade before it really clicks.:cool:

Isn't it time for Larry to go to Europe to find another "ICON"?:D

I think TPTB for the Pacers right now, with the exception of Carly and maybe Bird, are the best people available in running the team. However, just because they're the best doesn't mean they could possibly make mistakes, and they are untimately accountable to the fans who pay for tickets and merchandise with every move they make.

Jermaine did make a mistake by fouling Rasheed behind the three point line, and any Pacer and nearly any player in the NBA is going to make a mistake while guarding Rasheed. The job of the coach, at least in theory, is to assign the player who they think is going to make the least mistakes in guarding Rasheed. I think that most would agree that Jeff or JO is less mistake prone on defense than Murph. However, with this being a regular season game, Carly might have found it necessary to put Murph on Rasheed so that he could see how Murph could match up defensively against one of the key players of a team that we will very likely play in the playoffs.

hoopsforlife
01-30-2007, 02:28 PM
Hallmark cards are not cheap.

avoidingtheclowns
01-30-2007, 03:22 PM
okay this is one thing that bothers me: all the hate for austin croshere.

besides not volunteering to give some of his contract money up, what did he ever do to truly hurt this team? he was an important part of the team that went to the Finals. and under isiah had a real performance drop-off.

besides... who should have we drafted that year?



FIRST ROUND 1997 DRAFT...
1. Tim Duncan (Wake Forest) - San Antonio
2. Keith Van Horn (Utah) - Philadelphia
3. Chauncey Billups ( Colorado) - Boston
4. Antonio Daniels (Bowling Green) - Vancouver
5. Tony Battie ( Texas Tech) - Denver
6. Ron Mercer ( Kentucky) - Boston
7. Tim Thomas (Villanova) - New Jersey
8. Adonal Foyle (Colgate) - Golden State
9. Tracy McGrady ( Mt Zion (NC) Academy) - Toronto
10. Danny Fortson ( Cincinnati) - Milwaukee
11. Olivier Saint-Jean (San Jose State) - Sacramento
12. Austin Croshere (Providence) - Indiana
13. Derek Anderson (Kentucky) - Cleveland
14. Maurice Taylor (Michigan) - LA Clippers
15. Kelvin Cato (Iowa State ) - Dallas
16. Brevin Knight (Stanford) - Cleveland
17. Johnny Taylor (Tennessee-Chattanooga) - Orlando
18. Chris Anstey (Australia ) - Portland
19. Scot Pollard (Kansas) - Detroit
20. Paul Grant (Wisconsin ) - Minnesota
21. Anthony Parker (Bradley ) - New Jersey
22. Ed Gray (California ) - Atlanta
23. Bobby Jackson (Minnesota) - Seattle
24. Rodrick Rhodes (Southern Cal ) - Houston
25. John Thomas (Minnesota ) - New York
26. Charles Smith (New Mexico ) - Miami
27. Jacque Vaughn (Kansas ) - Utah
28. Keith Booth (Maryland ) - Chicago

SECOND ROUND 1997 DRAFT...
30. Serge Zwikker (North Carolina ) - Houston
31. Mark Sanford ( Washington ) - Miami
32. Charles O'Bannon (UCLA ) - Detroit
33. James Cotton (Long Beach State ) - Denver
34. Marko Milic (Slovenia ) - Philadelphia
35. Bubba Wells (Austin Peay ) - Dallas
36. Kebu Stewart (Cal State-Bakersfield) - Philadelphia
37. James Collins ( Florida State ) - Philadelphia
38. Marc Jackson (Temple ) - Golden State
39. Jerald Honeycutt (Tulane ) - Milwaukee
40. Anthony Johnson (College of Charleston ) - Sacramento
41. Eddie Elisma ( Georgia Tech ) - Seattle
42. Jason Lawson (Villanova ) - Denver
43. Stephen Jackson ( Butler County (KS) CC) - Phoenix
44. Gordon Malone (West Virginia) - Minnesota
45. Cedric Henderson ( Memphis) - Cleveland
46. God Shammgod (Providence ) - Washington
47. Eric Washington (Alabama) - Orlando
48. Alvin Williams (Villanova ) - Portland
49. Predrag Drobnjak (Partizan-Belgrade ) - Washington
50. Alein Digbeu (Villeurbanne-France) - Atlanta
51. Chris Crawford ( Marquette ) - Atlanta
52. DeJuan Wheat (Louisville ) - LA Lakers
53. C.J. Bruton ( Indian Hills (IA) CC ) - Vancouver
54. Paul Rogers ( Gonzaga ) - LA Lakers
55. Mark Blount ( Pittsburgh ) - Seattle
56. Ben Pepper ( Australia ) - Boston
57. Nate Erdmann ( Oklahoma ) - Utah
58. Roberto Duenas (FC Barcelona-Spain ) - Chicago


now other than trading up for the #1 pick, who should have we drafted? Derek Anderson, has had a decent career but has been injured more than Croshere and bounced from team to team. maybe a big like Cato or Pollard? perhaps we could have gone that direction. or how about young stephen jackson, who would later capture all of our hearts and minds and ammunition.

but we drafted a hard-nosed, shooter who had just come off an incredible march madness where he led Providence to the elite eight, losing to Arizona (eventual champion). so why was this a bad pick?

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 11:07 AM
While I agree that EVERYONE’s opinion is valued, what I can’t agree on is the Rick Carlisle & Donnie Walsh bashing that goes on here by all the couch coaches.:mad:

Why? They aren't perfect. When they deserve praise, they get it. When they deserve criticism, they get it. I'll agree with you that many people often miss the point with their criticism (and praise), and I'm probably guilty myself. But I think they get off pretty easily.


I guess it is a hard concept with the view sitting in your family room, then the view sitting on the Pacer bench. :confused:

First lets rehash Sundays game with the Pistons. I’ve seen complaints that Rick shouldn’t have put Murphy on Rasheed Wallace. Where that might be true, remember that Wallace is a very hard guard for anyone in the NBA, just not Troy Murphy. I’ve seen him school Jermaine and Foster also. What isn’t happining is the help side defense sliding over to block out the weak side rebounder for put backs. That was Granger’s job. Danny may be shooting the ball better, but his defense awareness still isn’t where it needs to be. It also doesn’t help when Tinsley is constantly beat by the opposing point guard off the dribble and with the short screen pick and roll. Jamal gives up entirely to quickly on 95% of all defensive plays. One other thing , when Foster is in the lineup the Pacers are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end. To me the idea of the game is to score before the other team does, and continue to do so. Jeff Foster rebounds and hustles, but gives you only an occasional putback and dunk off a pick and roll. Once you clear up the rotation problems the defense will be much, much better.

And yet I agree with everything you say here. Coaching was not a factor at all in the loss to Detroit. Troy and Dunn needed to "see" the gap between where their games are now and where they'll need to be if we match up with Detroit in the playoffs.


When I look at this team, I’m beginning to see the beginning of a decent basketball IQ. That was something that wasn’t here when Harrington & Jackson were here. Lets also be real here for a minute….Jamal Tinsleys basketball IQ is right there with Harrington and Jackson. Where Jamal plays decent in the first 3 quarters he folds like a cheap Hallmark card in fourth quarters.:rolleyes: His basketball maturity is still that of a toddler that is very selfish with his toys….won’t share them when the adults are around. Crunch time is the fourth quarter in a close game. The reason Tinsley is playing then is because Walsh HAS told Carlisle to play him and make everyone in the NBA try to believe that Tinsley is a viable point guard.(TRADE PURPOSES);) Jamal needs to be on a team with a defensive presence behind him. Right now O’neal is a presence, but Granger is still to raw of a defensive player (31 mins per game, 4 rebounds). He does not block out nor does he anticipate shot length very well. Hopefully that will come with more experience.

I can buy that. The problem has been that the team has not had a viable alternative to Tinsley, which makes him *more valuable* to the Pacers than to other teams in the league. And PG is such an important position...


Last but not least we are not the Mavericks or the Suns. We are the Indiana Pacers. We do not have the luxury of attracting free agents because we have a state income tax (unlike Texas and Florida) and cold weather in the wintertime. We are a small market with very passionate fan base, but with owners who are practical and put out a good product every year. Donnie Walsh & the Pacers have built this team and its success over the years through the draft and shrewd trades. Every once and a while there will be a Johnathan Bender, Clark Kellogg, Steve Stipanovich that show a lot of promise but get injured early in their careers. On the flip side there will be Rik Smits, Reggie Millers, Chuck Persons, Dale & Antonio Davis’s. Trades that bring in Detlef Shrempf’s, Sam Mitchells, Jermaine O’Neals, Ron Artests, Jalen Roses, Mark Jacksons, Brad Millers, Troy Murphys, Ike Diogus and Mike Dunleavy’s. Donnie knows wat he’s doing and is the BEST at what he does. For any of you to question that only shows many of us on the Digest not to take your opinions very seriously.

Donnie has done an excellent job of taking a dismal team and making them a perennial playoff team capable of deep playoff runs. I think the criticism is that Donnie has not yet shown the ability to get a team "over the top". San Antonio has, and they're in a smaller market than Indy. So its possible. And that criticism is fair. Nobody that I read is saying "Donnie sucks" or even that "Donnie is average". The Pacers have a twenty-year cumulative regular season record that is in the top-ten in the league, and among the league leaders for most CF appearances over that time. Donnie is clearly top-ten or maybe top-five but to call him "the best" is almost as preposterous as the when somebody says, "Donnie sucks!"


The bottom line is that this was a FANTASTIC trade that we just made with Golden State. Each team got a little better. There are obviously more trades to come because the Pacers are still not contenders for the NBA championship…eastern conference, yes, big dance…NO, not until we get a point guard and a defensive presence in the middle to come off the bench. Another shooter wouldn’t hurt.

Agree.


So be a fan, and if you think can do the job better then any of the people that the Pacers Braintrust (excluding Larry “I’m worthless” Bird) then APPLY .:-p

I did apply, the day Dick Versace was fired. :-p <= Back at 'cha

Granted, I couldn't get anybody in the front office to take me seriously, but I did apply.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 11:14 AM
Personally, this is my opinion of Larry Bird.

As a high school , collegiate and Professional PLAYER he is easily one of the greatest that ever played the game...Larry had the natural instinct and skills.

As a coach, asssistant GM-player personel he does not have the intuition or the "out side the box thinking" that is required. What he sees through his eyes as far as talent is concerened is mind boggelling (Austin Croshere, Johnathan Bender, Sarunas Jasacavicius, Maceo Baston).

Yes, Bird has the respect (limited-see Artest) because he's Larry Legend. Players respect the stars that they grew up watching. Some of the younger guys even realize its becasue of players like Bird that they have the contracts they have.

I was there the day that Larry Brown left the Pacers and very quickly the franchise announced that Larry Bird was going to be the next coach. I actually heard this that at that time the Pacers were more worried about advanced season ticket sales for a new Conseco Fieldhouse that was to be opened in a year. Bird, like Isiah was brought into the franchise to do nothing more then pique curiosity and spike ticket sales. Bird did know his limitaions of coaching so he brought in Rick Carlisle to handle the offense and Dick Harter to work with the defense. Both these guys made Larry look good, but it was actually Donnie who brought in the assistant coaches to cover rthe fact that Bird was NO tactician. May I remind you that the Pacers only had 2 assistants where most franchises have entourages of 4 or 5 now.

If you look at Danny Ainge (Celtics 12-31) And Kevin Mchale (T-Wolves 22-22) neither are tearing up the NBA. Neither of them know what to do, much like Larry legend. Great players don't always make great judges of talent, especially those with egos.

The bottom line is that Larry Bird is a CELTIC and Isiah Thomas was a PISTON, Donnie Walsh has been with the franchise since the early to mid 80's and has done more for this franchise in the respect of keeping them competitive then anyone in the history of the franchise and that includes Slick Leonard (trading Alex English for George McGinnis) (selecting ) (Trading qaway Don Buse for Ricky Sobers and Billy Knight for Adrian Dantley and Mike Bantom in their primes) (trading the #1 pick for the #3 pick in the 1978 NBA draft and taking Rick Robey instead of Larry Bird, we also got Johnny Davis)(Adrian Dantley & Dave Robish for Earl Tatum and James Edwards)...I could go on....

When you really look at the Big picture of the Pacers what has LArry brought into the Franchise that positive besides his reputation as a player?

Thats where I have a problem with Mr. Bird

Wow. A soul-mate. :buddies:

I think your criticisms of Slick's GM moves might be a bit harsh, I think Sam Nassi was driving those for $$$ reasons, not basketball reasons.

But the only example of a player "respecting" Bird that I can think of is Jalen Rose. But even that was, uh, wacky (and I'm about the only Jalen Rose fan on the board, I think.)

Long-term, I find it hard to criticize Donnie. Short-term, he absolutely drives me insane at times and I see too many what-if's. Ditto for Rick.

Answer this question for me: It appears to me that this most-recent trade has Bird's fingerprints all over it, not Donnies. Do you agree or disagree? (I'm not asking for 'inside' info, just an opinion.)

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 11:23 AM
I don't want anyone to "worship" any NBA front office. The Pacers and Donnie Walsh are far from perfect, but who else is there out there that could do a better job that isn't already working?

Same could be said about Carlisle, whos out there thats a better coach that isn't already working?

Kiki?

We didn't fire Isiah when JVG was available. IMO, we waited too long to fire Zeke. (I still think he should've been fired - on the spot - during the fourth quarter of Game #1 of the Boston series when he ran out of timeouts and took Reggie out of the game during a FT that Boston missed so that the only way we could stop the clock and get Reggie back into the game was to commit a turnover. :dunce:.)

My point is there are "alternatives" - maybe better, maybe worse.

Chuck Person will make a very, very good NBA executive some day, and the period of time he's spending on the bench will only help him when he moves back into the front office (hopefully for the Pacers, when Bird is gone. :pray: )

DaSMASH
01-31-2007, 01:25 PM
Jay,

My personal opinion is that Donnie and only Donnie makes the overature and completes the transaction. I do believe he asks for Larrys input, but already has his mind made up. It wasn't Donnie on the cover of Sports Illustrated with Artest last year, if you get my drift. I would rather have more of Donnie's what if's then Larrys European superstar can't miss lets give him 4 mill a year its not my money decisions.

All KiKi V did for the nuggets was get lucky or bad enough to draft high in the lottery. His player moves over the past few years have done nothing too improve the Nuggets. I think he may have been behing the uniform color swith to sky blue and gold (UCLA colors) The Nuggets haven't won ANYTHING in DENVER for so very long....They may have trouble making the playoffs if a couple of other teams get hot in the west. The suspensions hurt the nuggets. The Iverson move believe it or not was positive. Carmello backpeddling during the fight killed any chances this year of doing anything in the playoffs.

Yes Slick had to deal with Sam Nassi selling off the players when Nassi was selling the team, not when we still had a decent base of players to work with. Slick was fired after the 1980 season. Jack McKinney was the coach and GM in 1981 that traded our pick in 1983 to Portland for Tom Owens. Jack did get us into the playoffs that year, which we lost in the best of 3 to the Sixers and Dr.J. Then Jack fell off his Bicycle.

Chuck Person is what he is...a good shooting coach. He like a multitude of former NBA players want to lead a franchise to unfound glory.....How good of a student of the game is Chuck (and I love Chuck) ?

Bball
01-31-2007, 01:39 PM
Donnie's slow reaction time guarantees a team will have time to gel and build upon itself. So a good team will only get stronger. His slow reaction time also guarantees a cancer filled team will be in need of intense radiation and chemotherapy by the time he finally takes the scalpel to it.

And I still question his vision and motivations (he's too driven by just making the playoffs, not by winning in them).

-Bball

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 03:30 PM
I remember during the 1991 or 1992 playoffs a halftime feature on Chuck and Reggie (When they had just completed building their Geist mansions next door to each other.)

Reggie had the cool pool table and home theater, but Chuck - long before DirecTV exisited - had a series of wide-format satellite dishes and VCRs so that he could tape every NBA game and watch/ scout it.

Chuck may not have been as versatile of a player as we all wanted him to be, but my impression is that he's always been a "student" of the game.

Whether or not he's been a good one? I guess we'll find out. I expected more from Billy Knight than he's shown, too. But again, he's been limited by questionable ownership in Vancouver and Atlanta.

imawhat
01-31-2007, 03:32 PM
Chuck Person is what he is...a good shooting coach.


I know he's our defensive guy, but he could certainly help a team that ranks last in FG%.

kerosene
01-31-2007, 05:14 PM
now other than trading up for the #1 pick, who should have we drafted? Derek Anderson, has had a decent career but has been injured more than Croshere and bounced from team to team. maybe a big like Cato or Pollard? perhaps we could have gone that direction. or how about young stephen jackson, who would later capture all of our hearts and minds and ammunition.

but we drafted a hard-nosed, shooter who had just come off an incredible march madness where he led Providence to the elite eight, losing to Arizona (eventual champion). so why was this a bad pick?

cato or pollard might have been nice to have had around in the Finals a few years later. then again, you could argue that without austin the team wouldn't have made the finals so it's probably a moot point.

i agree that it's not his fault that teams offered him so much money. he did what he is supposed to do; sign the contract.

sixthman
01-31-2007, 07:05 PM
Bobby Jackson would have turned to be out a decent pick in 1997. Not a strong draft year was it? As I remember Marc Jackson, taken in the second round by GS, turned out to be a top five rookie.

avoidingtheclowns
01-31-2007, 07:29 PM
yeah thats the point... i mean by draft night standards ron mercer was a catch and stephen jackson was barely worth the effort. now regardless of how we feel about him, he was a starter for us and long outlasted mr. mercer.

duncan and mcgrady turned out great. the rest was sort of a crap shoot. and i think ultimately the pacers made a great pick, not a star, but a solid player that was a great teammate and someone who seemed to love playing for the pacers.

and on the the bobby jackson note, we already had mark jackson and travis best and then jalen rose who could handle the ball. i think we had needs at PF/C/SF and Austin fit in that category and he was a shooter. we already had the davis boys and smits to pound it inside.

Naptown_Seth
02-01-2007, 12:13 PM
Why? They aren't perfect. When they deserve praise, they get it.
When does this happen from the same people that bash them for "blowing" the Detroit game and stuff like that? When do the people that want Rick fired stop and say "hey, they just won in Detroit, he coached them to an upset victory".

Never. Then it's all about the players, especially a person's fave. Only the losses get tagged to the favorite goat of the poster no matter what.