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View Full Version : Few Reasons Why Rick Carlisle is a Bad Coach



Jermaniac
01-28-2007, 09:15 PM
Danny Granger scored 8 points to start off the 2nd qtr. After that I swear I only see him take one shot. ONE MEASLY SHOT.

Rick Carlisle is always about 3-4 minutes late on his adjustments.

It took him 3 qtrs to realize that Murphy CAN NOT guard Rasheed.

Lord Helmet
01-28-2007, 09:16 PM
You're failing to see the big picture. Chris Webber suited up for the Pistons tonight.

Chris Webber looks happy to be home.

He's not done.

Fitting he had the final dagger tonight.

Webber has a lot of history here in Michigan.

He has a lot of older more mature players around him now.

Very happy to see him happy again.

He's in a winning situation now, every night he steps on the court.

Webber has one of the biggest jersey numbers in the league in 84.

He turned the Kings franchise around.

People just thought he was done. Clearly, Chris Webber has only begun.

Again, Chris looks to be very happy back home in Michigan.

Ragnar
01-28-2007, 09:17 PM
Danny Granger scored 8 points to start off the 2nd qtr. After that I swear I only see him take one shot. ONE MEASLY SHOT.

It takes Rick 3 minutes to make an adjustment to the other team. It took him 3 qtrs to realize that Murphy CAN NOT guard Rasheed.

I dont think Rick ever got that message. I have no idea why Murphy was in there at the end.

Tonights not why we need a new coach its just part of why.

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 09:18 PM
It took him 3 qtrs to realize that Murphy CAN NOT guard Rasheed.

That was a travesty. If he ever has Murphy guarding Rasheed again, it will be coaching malpractice.

imawhat
01-28-2007, 09:20 PM
We got the score tied at 79 and Rick subbed in three new guys. I'm not sure why you take out the lineup that got you back into it, but oh well ::shrugs::.


Everyone has this opinion that Rick is a great X and O coach, and I don't think he is. At all. His strength is his mental consistency and his ability to adapt.



For what it's worth, I can't think of an unemployed coach that I'd rather have. I just wish Rick had some great assistants over there with him. A Tex Winter or someone like that.

AesopRockOn
01-28-2007, 09:20 PM
Rick with bad subbing lost the game for us even more than some of the bull**** calls tonight. Our guys really need to learn how to take charges; only JO and DA can do that right now.

Jermaniac
01-28-2007, 09:21 PM
That was a travesty. If he ever has Murphy guarding Rasheed again, it will be coaching malpractice.It blew my mind that he kept leaving Murphy on him. They went to Sheed every damn time they needed a bucket and he would just put Murphy and the ball into the basket. Foster should have been in there much earlier but you know Rick, if it doesnt say that Foster needs to play on that piece of paper, Foster doesnt play.

colonialspacers
01-28-2007, 09:21 PM
You're failing to see the big picture. Chris Webber suited up for the Pistons tonight.

Chris Webber looks happy to be home.

He's not done.

Fitting he had the final dagger tonight.

Webber has a lot of history here in Michigan.

He has a lot of older more mature players around him now.

Very happy to see him happy again.

He's in a winning situation now, every night he steps on the court.

Webber has one of the biggest jersey numbers in the league in 84.

He turned the Kings franchise around.

People just thought he was done. Clearly, Chris Webber has only begun.

Again, Chris looks to be very happy back home in Michigan.

I hope like hell that you're joking. I heard enough of that drivel from the referees tonight. CWebb has no athleticism left, JO laid a gigantic egg guarding him tonight.

Another reason why Carly is a bad couch is because he has no desire to play younger players even in situations where they seem to be having a good night and would benefit even more from increased play. Tonight at Detroit that was most obvious with Rawle, but Shawne also made a couple of good plays tonight and was a nonfactor in the second half.

Jermaniac
01-28-2007, 09:23 PM
We got the score tied at 79 and Rick subbed in three new guys. I'm not sure why you take out the lineup that got you back into it, but oh well ::shrugs::.


The paper said so dude, so Rick had to put them into the game. Rick Carlisle does not know what the hell it means to roll with the hot line up or the hot hand. He has no idea what that means.

I have said before Rick Carlisle would assassinate the careers of some of the best scorers in the NBA. Lebron James would not be Lebron James if he played for Rick Carlisle.

LoneGranger33
01-28-2007, 09:23 PM
It blew my mind that he kept leaving Murphy on him. They went to Sheed every damn time they needed a bucket and he would just put Murphy and the ball into the basket. Foster should have been in there much earlier but you know Rick, if it doesnt say that Foster needs to play on that piece of paper, Foster doesnt play.

When he's right, he's right. You just can't argue with Dat Dude on this one. "Toy" Murphy was a plaything for Rasheed Wallace.

Evan_The_Dude
01-28-2007, 09:24 PM
I hope like hell that you're joking. I heard enough of that drivel from the referees tonight. CWebb has no athleticism left, JO laid a gigantic egg guarding him tonight.

Another reason why Carly is a bad couch is because he has no desire to play younger players even in situations where they seem to be having a good night and would benefit even more from increased play. Tonight at Detroit that was most obvious with Rawle, but Shawne also made a couple of good plays tonight and was a nonfactor in the second half.

He was mocking ESPN.

colonialspacers
01-28-2007, 09:25 PM
He was mocking ESPN.

Good to know, I thought so, but just making sure, that :censored: was killing me tonight.

imawhat
01-28-2007, 09:25 PM
I hope like hell that you're joking. I heard enough of that drivel from the referees tonight. CWebb has no athleticism left, JO laid a gigantic egg guarding him tonight.


Jermaine actually did a good job on Chris Webber tonight. The reason it looked so bad is because he was forced to cover for Jamaal allowing Chauncey to penetrate and for Troy because he wasn't boxing out.

rexnom
01-28-2007, 09:26 PM
Can we take it easy...? Please? Murphy is a better match-up with some teams, Foster with others. Rick left Jeff in as long as he could in the second half. Jeff played a lot of minutes. What killed us was Jermaine's foul on Chris Webber. That forced so many things and by the time JO got back it was too late.

TheDon
01-28-2007, 09:26 PM
ya know I just read these threads and laugh, and it's because there is so much truth in your observations I just can't be mad I just end up laughing. I don't know why we let JO sit like for .3 seconds only to have him jump back up one second later and back out onto the floor? What was the purpose in that? So JO could set out while they drive right into the middle and score at will or let Sheed continue to carve up murphy? That game we were outcoached, combine that with bad foul calls, and some periods where were in awful shooting droughts...and it's a cakewalk for the pistons. FFS Rick be creative for just once in your life!!!

imawhat
01-28-2007, 09:29 PM
Can we take it easy...? Please? Murphy is a better match-up with some teams, Foster with others. Rick left Jeff in as long as he could in the second half. Jeff played a lot of minutes. What killed us was Jermaine's foul on Chris Webber. That forced so many things and by the time JO got back it was too late.


I'd say there were far more things killing us than JO fouling Webber.


Jermaine has been logging some serious minutes, and it has me concerned.

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 09:32 PM
We lacked interior presence in this game. JO was castrated with foul trouble. Murphy played too many minutes. We could have used Ike in there more minutes. I don't care if he's green. The guy needs time on the court. He ate them alive last year....and would have reduced some of the scoring by their forwards.

Ike and JO should have been out there together IMO.

Bball
01-28-2007, 09:36 PM
It was interesting to see Tinsley guarding Prince a few times in the game.

-Bballl

colonialspacers
01-28-2007, 09:44 PM
We lacked interior presence in this game. JO was castrated with foul trouble. Murphy played too many minutes. We could have used Ike in there more minutes. I don't care if he's green. The guy needs time on the court. He ate them alive last year....and would have reduced some of the scoring by their forwards.

Ike and JO should have been out there together IMO.

That's one hell of a way to get your point across :-o :laugh:

arenn
01-28-2007, 10:00 PM
It was obvious in the first quarter that Murphy was overmatched by Rasheed and that Detroit a) knew it and b) was going to exploit it every chance they got. Rasheed had no business getting a lot of those baskets because the Pacers had no business having Murphy try to guard him. That's a criminal coaching offense. Yes, Murph needs to step it up defensively, learn how to flop and get some charges, etc. But the bottom line is that he's just not capable of guarding Rasheed right now and Rick hung him out to dry.

If Murphy ends up being a defensive liability in too many matchups, it is going to limit his usefulness to us. Though I think Rasheed presents a unique challenge because he can play at the perimeter. Usually the guys who would be matchup problem for Murphy you would expect Murphy could school from the perimeter on the other end. Let's hope there aren't too many matchup problems as bad as Rasheed.

Eindar
01-28-2007, 10:07 PM
I'm with y'all. We can pin this one completely on Carlisle. Unless Foster played 40+ minutes tonight, he didn't play enough. As soon as Carlisle realized that Rasheed was going to destroy Murphy on ever possession, he should have switched their roles, having Jeff in when Rasheed was in, Murph in when 'Sheed was out, and it's criminal that Carlisle didn't see and recognize that. Not playing Ike or Shawne is small, small potatoes compared to that adjustment.

Carlisle lost this game for us.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 10:14 PM
I'm with y'all. We can pin this one completely on Carlisle. Unless Foster played 40+ minutes tonight, he didn't play enough. As soon as Carlisle realized that Rasheed was going to destroy Murphy on ever possession, he should have switched their roles, having Jeff in when Rasheed was in, Murph in when 'Sheed was out, and it's criminal that Carlisle didn't see and recognize that. Not playing Ike or Shawne is small, small potatoes compared to that adjustment.

Carlisle lost this game for us.



What a minute, what ever happened to the theory that as a coach you should play your players as usual and make the other team matchup with you

Evan_The_Dude
01-28-2007, 10:19 PM
What a minute, what ever happened to the theory that as a coach you should play your players as usual and make the other team matchup with you

Well that's what the Pistons did to us...

Hicks
01-28-2007, 10:21 PM
What a minute, what ever happened to the theory that as a coach you should play your players as usual and make the other team matchup with you

You do it when it works. It didn't work.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 10:23 PM
Well that's what the Pistons did to us...

I always read in this forum about how Rick is a terrible coach because he tries to matchup with the opponent - and then tonight Rick for the most part doesn't do that and he still gets criticized. So which is it. Should Rick match up with the other team or the other way around.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 10:24 PM
You do it when it works. It didn't work.

Sounds easy 2 hours after the game is over. What about the theory that Murphy is needed to spread the floor - you know no one has to guard Jeff,

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 10:28 PM
What a minute, what ever happened to the theory that as a coach you should play your players as usual and make the other team matchup with you

That's when you have a legitimate chance of competing. It wasn't even close in this case.

Now, you do want to keep a set rotation to improve continuity and team play. I like what RC is trying to do here. However, we cannot have huge gaps like this and expect to contend. We might also need to look at a change in the starting lineup if we want a set rotation.

Eindar
01-28-2007, 10:30 PM
I always read in this forum about how Rick is a terrible coach because he tries to matchup with the opponent - and then tonight Rick for the most part doesn't do that and he still gets criticized. So which is it. Should Rick match up with the other team or the other way around.

You've got a good point, but I think you try to force the other team to match up to you because you feel you have an advantage in some aspect. Murphy isn't a mismatch for Rasheed Wallace on either end, and that's when I think you should try to minimize damage done to you from that position. That's why I think they should have put Jeff on Sheed and Murph in the 2nd unit.

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 10:30 PM
Sounds easy 2 hours after the game is over. What about the theory that Murphy is needed to spread the floor - you know no one has to guard Jeff,

I think this is a learn-as-you-go for RC too. Murph on Sheed does not work....and there is no longer a Ben Wallace on the court for Murph to guard. Lesson learned.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 10:40 PM
Sheed only shot 6 of 16 tonight. I'll take that

rexnom
01-28-2007, 10:43 PM
Sheed only shot 6 of 16 tonight. I'll take that
Wow...so even though Murphy apparently played the worst defense of all time tonight, Sheed still didn't do that great. And he got a lot of calls.

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Wow...so even though Murphy apparently played the worst defense of all time tonight, Sheed still didn't do that great. And he got a lot of calls.

Easily explained.

After burying 6 straight on Murphy he thought he was Kobe Bryant. ...then we started to guard him and he threw up bricks thinking he would get hot again.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-28-2007, 11:54 PM
He was actually 6-13 with 18 points while he and Murphy shared court time. JO blocked two of those misses and fouled him on the 3 point play. Some of those makes and misses came with Foster and JO guarding him on those possessions. I do know the Pistons targeted him defensively with Wallace, Webber and McDyess.

quiller
01-29-2007, 12:47 AM
we can talk about Murphy/sheed mismatch and such back and forth.. and a lot of other rick problems but the bottom line.. with all that we were tied with 6 minutes left in the game when JO picked up his 5th foul becuase of being a little over worked going against a almost regular tripple team and having to play hard defense. we take out JO for a few minutes which makes sense.. need him for the final 3 to 4 minutes game is still cloes...

now down 2... Granger.. yes the granger we want to take shots misses a easy shot for him in the lane and we also miss the tip... come down.. give a easy shot to Hamilton .... granger again misses a shot and again we miss a easy tip.. come down webb scores on a easy shot...

now down six and we are no longer in touch....

this to me isn't really ricks fault much.. can't blame him we weren't able to convert two easy put backs and granger who has been hot for a number of games misses two shots in a row....

then Duns misses a three and becuase like all night Murphy, foster and such have tired legs can' t jump as high they get a back tip on the rebound second posession and score and its mostly game over.... most of the offensive boards and such they got by out jumping us from behind or grabbing a ball we couldn't quite grab when in proper block out... i.e. williams flying in tipping the ball away from murphy right to a blocked out Mcdyess like in the first qtr...

we also didn't help our selves much with the ft shooting and I agree it is strange that we took it to the basket as much as they did all game long and still didn't shoot as many ft's as they made....

My main thing I take from this game is Detroit better not be over confident about this win.. they really didn't empress me as being that much better even though they won the game... mainly becuase they managed to score a lot more 2nd chance points then us though they only ended up getting 5 more offensive boards...

Since86
01-29-2007, 01:03 AM
THE SUN!! IT WILL NEVER RISE AGAIN!!! OH NOO!!!!!

It's pretty funny to read the reactions on here sometimes. I'm sure some of you would find fault in the coach if it was Jesus himself.

Sheed shot 6-16, and hit two before RC made the adjustment and moved JO to him at the start of the second half.

maragin
01-29-2007, 03:35 AM
A bad coach? "Bad" is relative, and I'm not convinced he's a bad coach compared to other coaches. I thought that he did a fine job keeping us in this tough, back to back, road game.

CableKC
01-29-2007, 06:02 AM
When Wallace paired with Webber or McDyess....who was guarding Webber or McDyess?

Was it JONeal or Murphy?

I was thinking that Murphy should always guard the lesser Big Man offensive threat and JONeal/Foster should always guard the bigger Big Man offensive threat. Although, McDyess and Webber were doing fairly well on the offensive end....I will always prefer to have JONeal guard Wallace over Murphy and take my chances with Murphy covering McDyess or Webber.

Besides...I don't know if that was a major factor in the loss.....it was ONE of the factors...but it wasn't the sole reason we lost. I think that Dunleavy and Murphy shooting a combind 6-13 FGA from the field and not being as much of an offensive factor in the game didn't help our cause.

Tinsley seemed to do okay...although Billups scored 18 points...he only took 7 FGA but went 10-10 from the FT line. If billups was lighting us up...then I would have a major concern....but since Billups wasn't as much of an offensive option ( where Rip, Webber and Sheed were )...I can't really complain about Tinsley. He took 13 FGA and made 7 of them.

Surprisingly...we did outrebound them....46 to 41. To tell you the truth...I think there were several factors in our loss ( Murphy covering Rasheed.....some coaching mistakes by Carlisle...Dunleavy and Murphy not being as much of an offensive option on the floor ) ...but I don't think any of the ones mentioned in this thread was main cause for the loss.

Despite pulling close twice throughout the game.....I just think that we lost simply because the Pistons ( like always ) was able to execute and complete plays at critical times of the game when they had to.

McKeyFan
01-29-2007, 08:41 AM
Isn't it Jay that always says (or is it BBall?) that Carlisle always does the right thing, but it always takes him two or three games to figure it out?

My guess is you saw in this situation Rick giving Murphy every chance to prove his rep wrong--that he could find a way to at least neutralize Sheed.

He didn't. Rick will take note of it and come playoffs or before, you won't see that mistake again.

To be fair to Rick, now is the time to test all your pieces before chucking certain options.

Ragnar
01-29-2007, 08:58 AM
I always read in this forum about how Rick is a terrible coach because he tries to matchup with the opponent - and then tonight Rick for the most part doesn't do that and he still gets criticized. So which is it. Should Rick match up with the other team or the other way around.

I cant believe you cant tell the difference between not falling for the go small trap (which Rick regularly does) and playing a better big when needed. Jeff is the better rebounder and we have been getting killed on the boards at the ends of games because he has not been playing Jeff then. We get close with Jeff in the game and he puts Murphy in and we lose the battle.

Since86
01-29-2007, 02:07 PM
You mean killed on the boards like Murph having 10 rebs in 27mins compared to Foster's 9rebs in 23 mins?

For those keeping track at home, Foster is .02reb/min better.

I'm sure those .02 rebounds would have been a 7pt difference.

Coach
01-29-2007, 02:08 PM
I always read in this forum about how Rick is a terrible coach because he tries to matchup with the opponent - and then tonight Rick for the most part doesn't do that and he still gets criticized. So which is it. Should Rick match up with the other team or the other way around.

I totally agree with you UB. It amazes me how many people on here think they know how to coach a professional basketball team and how easy all the decisions are after the game is over.

If those of you who criticize Rick are so damn smart why aren't you coaching an NBA team yourself (I am sure it pays more than 99% of what people on this board make). People think that just because they watch a game 4-5 times a week it makes them an expert. I have been watching the discovery channel (surgeries). By some peoples reasoning I should be your doctor! :laugh:

I do not mean for this post to belittle anyone. I believe that this is this best message board for ANY pro sports teams. The discussion on here is generally very well thought out but come on.

Bball
01-29-2007, 02:20 PM
Isn't it Jay that always says (or is it BBall?) that Carlisle always does the right thing, but it always takes him two or three games to figure it out?

My guess is you saw in this situation Rick giving Murphy every chance to prove his rep wrong--that he could find a way to at least neutralize Sheed.

He didn't. Rick will take note of it and come playoffs or before, you won't see that mistake again.

To be fair to Rick, now is the time to test all your pieces before chucking certain options.

:wave:

-Bball

(Technically, I don't know that it takes 2 or 3 games for him to 'figure it out' but it seems it takes that for him to act)

FlavaDave
01-29-2007, 02:56 PM
Another reason why Carly is a bad couch is because he has no desire to play younger players even in situations where they seem to be having a good night and would benefit even more from increased play.


Well, that might be a factor (although he did start a 24-year-old and had an entire starting lineup comfortably under the age of thirty, but whatever).

But I would argue that the biggest reason why Carly is a bad couch is that he is a human being and therefore is uncomfortable to sit on.

BobbyMac
01-29-2007, 04:10 PM
How quickly people jump off the bandwagon..anxious to say "I told you so" after one loss....Sad....worthy of Kraptiz..

avoidingtheclowns
01-29-2007, 04:14 PM
But I would argue that the biggest reason why Carly is a bad couch is that he is a human being and therefore is uncomfortable to sit on.

dude... have you tried?

granted, a carlisle couch isn't as nice as the leather riley couch in miami...

Dr. Goldfoot
01-29-2007, 04:29 PM
But I would argue that the biggest reason why Carly is a bad couch is that he is a human being and therefore is uncomfortable to sit on.


I wanted to do something like that.... then I realized it wasn't funny...then you did it and I laughed.

I will now post something on topic. I think Carlisle is the wrong coach.

1)We have just completed the third major shakeup during his tenure. Most parties involved have had few kind words regarding their time spent playing for him. These players range in maturity levels, professional experience, talent levels and skill sets.
2)The Indiana Pacers are in a rut. They aren't a bottom feeder team but they are equidistant from being a true title contender. This most recent trade didn't really move them up or down the totem pole.
3)There's an old saying that goes something like this....If you say it enough people will eventually believe it's true...Rick's developed a reputation as a bad guy to play for. Negative environments find ways to fester.
4)I don't like his haircut.

maragin
01-29-2007, 04:47 PM
Carlisle would have to put on some pounds to be a good couch, imo.

Top NBA Couches:

Bernie Bickerstaff
http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/bickerstaff_041101.jpg
Lumpy couch

Eddie Jordan
http://www.nba.com/media/wizards/ejordan_040113.jpg
Couch that resembles Sinbad

George Karl
http://www2.jsonline.com/sports/buck/image/nba/karl1031.jpg
Comfy couch that doesn't like Isiah.

Don Nelson
http://images.newsx.cc/News14Charlotte_Media/2005/3/19/images/01__19-nellie.jpg
Soft Couch

Bonus Nellie Pic (http://cache.deadspin.com/sports/donnelsonjail.jpg)

Although he's on paid leave currently, the best NBA couch in recent years is Stan Van Gundy.

http://www.comcast.net/data/2005/05/25/bin22165.jpg
COUCH!

http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/basketball/nba/img8656369.jpg
I'M A COUCH!

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/ap/era20905012341.widec.jpg
Oooh YEAH! COUCH!

http://www.nba.com/media/heat/hpg0405_050525_vangundy2.jpg
Some men are just born couches.

ChicagoJ
01-29-2007, 06:09 PM
After that tangent, I lost my train-of-thought.

ChicagoJ
01-29-2007, 06:15 PM
Okay, I got it back.

I view the Murphy/ Wallace fiasco differently. And for once, I'm happy with what Rick did.

Eventually, Murphy is going to have to guard Wallace in a playoff game. Has Murphy (or Dunleavy) ever played in a Pistons-Pacers game before? I think they got a bit of an education as to what they're going to need to do to help the team - not something you get when playing an underachieving Miami team or a Toronto team that is nowhere near as good as their record.

It would've been even more maddening if Rick would've tossed in the towel. If that's the case, we might as well never play our normal starting five against Detroit ever again.

No. For a change, Rick (whether intentional or not), had the intestinal fortitude to stick with his guys long enough for them to learn just how much they'll have to improve to match up with the likes of 'Sheed and Prince.

Its up to the players - Murphy and Dunnleavy, to respond now. My hunch is that by games #2 and #3 against Detroit, we'll see some differences in how those guys are playing.

But we ain't gonna beat Detroit without them. Eventually, they collectively have to find a way to exploit Dunn and Murphy on offense without giving up any ground defensively.

I don't care at all that we lost that game, I'm looking forward to the adjustments the next time we play them.

Naptown_Seth
01-29-2007, 06:17 PM
Well that's what the Pistons did to us...
I'm with Buck on this. Two teams impose their will, one of them wins that battle. That's the talent losing out which then means that the coach will have to "gimmick" the lesser talent to a win since head to head it ain't happening.

No one is saying "Sheed couldn't guard Murph and it took Flip 3 quarters to figure that out". So right there you have fans admitting that Rick is the coach with LESS TALENT that got a road game within reach down the stretch.


Here's my problem with this thread though and I'm sincere on this. The last time Dat started a thread a lot like this was right after JO got his rear-end handed to him on the offensive boards in Chicago as they blew that game down the stretch. ("What is a rebound")

Now here we have this quick blame on the coaching again and what do I see out of JO AT THE START OF THE GAME (ie, before any adjustment period)?

1 of 6 as the team only scores 12 points. JO is the team's superstar, he's the #1 option. He's supposed to be better than anything Detroit has and he started that game 1 of 6 and put the team in a monster hole to start the game.

I honestly can't think of any times this season that I've thought JO flopped more than this game (mainly to start) and that Chicago game (at the end), and I thought that as I watched the game last night long before reading this thread.

So my reaction to it is like this is some kind of deflection from Dat's favorite guy or something. Like hit Rick so people don't point a finger at "god".

Things like "Chris Webber blocks Jermaine O'Neal's layup" shouldn't be in the play by play of an elite PF.


But instead we get "Rick blew it because he didn't get Danny touches" (Danny got a shot before JO even and had Sheed block it, then missed a tech FT too) and "Rick didn't adjust in time". Maybe. Maybe he should have benched JO sooner before he had a Tinsley 4th to start the game.

Part of JO's foul trouble can be attributed to his OFFENSIVE foul right at the start of the game. Another possession he blew that doesn't go in the FG%.




note - I don't think he should have benched JO of course, I just think that the Pistons have a solid frontline and outplayed the Pacers, with the problem amplified by having to use Marshall instead of Quis.

I just don't see how you watch that game and think "coach choked" with 12 first quarter points. They won the game after the first quarter, looks like adjustment was the one thing they did right.

Detroit shot 37% and people are blaming defense, blaming the Murph/Sheed matchup (Sheed went 6 of 16)? What about TWELVE FREAKING POINTS to start the game?



They didn't sub at 79-79 BTW, not till it was 79-81. After that point Granger missed 2 shots on back to back possessions (not tip backs either), DunDun missed his 3pt chance, and Tins had a double dribble and then a Sheed steal off of him for 2 critical TOs that basically sealed the game.

Put that on the coach for having his starting backcourt out there in the final minutes I guess. :shakehead

They went FOUR MINUTES from basically 6 to 1 left without scoring a point. DG got touches, Tins has to play because DA had already played a ton of minutes for his age and had just come out because of that.

Los Angeles
01-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Okay, I got it back.

I view the Murphy/ Wallace fiasco differently. And for once, I'm happy with what Rick did.

Eventually, Murphy is going to have to guard Wallace in a playoff game. Has Murphy (or Dunleavy) ever played in a Pistons-Pacers game before? I think they got a bit of an education as to what they're going to need to do to help the team - not something you get when playing an underachieving Miami team or a Toronto team that is nowhere near as good as their record.

It would've been even more maddening if Rick would've tossed in the towel. If that's the case, we might as well never play our normal starting five against Detroit ever again.

No. For a change, Rick (whether intentional or not), had the intestinal fortitude to stick with his guys long enough for them to learn just how much they'll have to improve to match up with the likes of 'Sheed and Prince.

Its up to the players - Murphy and Dunnleavy, to respond now. My hunch is that by games #2 and #3 against Detroit, we'll see some differences in how those guys are playing.

But we ain't gonna beat Detroit without them. Eventually, they collectively have to find a way to exploit Dunn and Murphy on offense without giving up any ground defensively.

I don't care at all that we lost that game, I'm looking forward to the adjustments the next time we play them.


I'm glad I'm not alone, though I think we should merge the post game thread and this one, because this is almost exactly what I said last night. :)

Unclebuck
01-29-2007, 07:59 PM
I cant believe you cant tell the difference between not falling for the go small trap (which Rick regularly does) and playing a better big when needed. Jeff is the better rebounder and we have been getting killed on the boards at the ends of games because he has not been playing Jeff then. We get close with Jeff in the game and he puts Murphy in and we lose the battle.

Ragnar - one thing I will never do is argue against giving Foster more playing time (well I mean up to about 32 minutes or so)

I also believe that sometimes a coach must matchup with the other team and sometimes a coach must stick with the game plan and try to force the other team to match-up. And I also believe that often it is good to go small especially if you are behind in the game or are not playing with enough energy.

ChicagoJ
01-29-2007, 11:34 PM
I'm glad I'm not alone, though I think we should merge the post game thread and this one, because this is almost exactly what I said last night. :)

What post-game thread? I couldn't find one. :blush:

(I was just looking for someone to say this first so I could "QFT") :brick:

bmac
01-30-2007, 09:23 AM
Murphy was in the game because he can score. As I remember we were down by double digits for the majority of the game. Taking out an offensive player(Murphy) for a defensive player (Foster) probably isn't the best move if your team needs points.

NPFII
01-30-2007, 10:39 AM
...

or a Toronto team that is nowhere near as bad as their record.

...

fixed.

Toronto are going to have a better record than the Pacers at season's end. Mark my words.

Jermaniac
01-30-2007, 11:50 AM
fixed.

Toronto are going to have a better record than the Pacers at season's end. Mark my words.Another guy mad Sarunas was traded, not nice.

ChicagoJ
01-30-2007, 12:20 PM
fixed.

Toronto are going to have a better record than the Pacers at season's end. Mark my words.

I don't know about that. Does TJ Ford make that big of a difference?

I'm not overly impressed with Bosh. Legit NBA starter with a lot of stats but I don't really like his finesse game.

Nesterovic is Nesterovic. A nice player but unspectacular.

I don't see Toronto in the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Pacers improved thier TEAM even if they took back less "talent" in the trade.

Hicks
01-30-2007, 12:55 PM
I don't know about that. Does TJ Ford make that big of a difference?

I'm not overly impressed with Bosh. Legit NBA starter with a lot of stats but I don't really like his finesse game.

Nesterovic is Nesterovic. A nice player but unspectacular.

I don't see Toronto in the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Pacers improved thier TEAM even if they took back less "talent" in the trade.

In your opinion, what makes him different from Jermaine O'Neal?

ChicagoJ
01-30-2007, 02:44 PM
30 pounds of muscle.

Bosh is where JO was - physically - in 2001/2.

Except I felt that JO was more assertive in the post even if he was relying primarily on his quickness. Bosh does not strike me as a guy that can deal with all that much physical contact. Admittedly, Toronto is fairly low on my list of teams to watch, but I still don't see the Bosh-JO comparison except in statistical results.

Bosh reminds me much more of a younger Antiono McDyess than JO. Polished, but less rugged. I'm not a Bosh-hater, I just don't think he's reached "premier PF status yet."

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I also think JO is much more physical than he's given credit for, and that is a benefit the Pacers get from JO that isn't measured in stats and that the Raptors arent' always getting from Bosh.

And, IMO but I know many of you will argue this point, I think JO could be a 27 and 10 guy if he wanted to dominate the ball. But I think JO does a pretty damn good job of sharing the ball. Maybe not passing, but sharing. Bosh doesn't have many other options (at least not historically). I'm not saying Bosh can't/ won't share the ball, just that JO's individual stats could be higher... I'd rather have JO at 18 and 14, but with better rebounders surrounding him, I think JO's rebounding stats will fall over the rest of the season and I'm also going to bet that somebody will rip into JO's decreased rebounding as the season goes on. I think 23 and 8/9 will be more likely as Murphy ultimately makes it easier for JO to score and makes the team less reliant on JO's rebounding.

As always, :twocents:

Naptown_Seth
01-30-2007, 04:44 PM
Jay, I agree. It's funny to hear complaints about JO being too soft and then you watch guys like Bosh shooting from near the arc all night. And of course Dirk is at MVP levels using that style of play.

JO looks very strong on offense this year, specifically going to the lane and countering that with his baseline turn-fade and his spin. Those 2 moves are all about quickness, and then to the lane he is strong enough to bull his way along and then skillful enough to flip the ball in with one hand, half finger roll style.



Toronto is going to finish better simply because they loaded up on west coast roadies even more than the Pacers did (IIRC) and are set to see a much more favorable schedule the 2nd half. So naturally they will "get better".

I don't see them ending up higher than the Pacers though, but that's because I think Indy can get to 45-46 wins still and that Toronto might fall just short of that. 42-44 area IMO.