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View Full Version : Effort Makes This New Team Attractive



brichard
01-28-2007, 11:55 AM
More than anything else, I think it is the effort of this team that has gotten me excited about this Pacer team again. Obviously effort without a fair amount of wins will eventually drive folks away, but nothing is so boring or frustrating as to watch talented people not achieve their potential.

I've seen threads over the years, I think it may have been UB, that said fans are oft too critical to accuse a player of not giving their best. And to a degree I think it is probably true. But then you see a team like this and you really see the difference.

You've got Armstrong the Energizer Bunny and Dun running all over creation. And as others have stated, I think it has gotten the other folks to play at a higher level. Murph really gets after the boards, but Foster continues to make the hustle plays as well. Even if the Pacers were to lose a game, you don't get the feeling that it could be blamed on attitude or because one player "mailed it in."

I know that this is very early in the trade, and since we have recently experienced a change (the trade itself,) that effects aren't often long lasting. However, I think in general that they will. And the reason I believe that is the effort guys we have acquired have a history of working hard.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 12:07 PM
I don't disagree with your point, the team is putting forth the effort. But the biggest difference to me with the new team is that they are playing more like a team.

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 12:24 PM
i agree with both points. but also i think that if the team element and effort is there, that losses aren't going to drive fans away. if you look at it, what has driven fans away is not losing, we have been a .500 team for two years. it was the general 'chi' about the team. i have watched pacer games for years and while in the last two years around the brawl i watched and appreciated wins, it was tough to watch even when they were winning. there was just a feel about the team. and watching last night, i found myself genuinely enjoying it, even when we weren't playing well during the 1st quarter, there was still something pleasing about it. we'll see if that feeling holds up... with the pacers the last couple of years you never know.

Putnam
01-28-2007, 12:30 PM
I've seen threads over the years, I think it may have been UB, that said fans are oft too critical to accuse a player of not giving their best.


Maybe UncleBuck did, too , but most recvently this argument came from Jay@Section19.


http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27773


Jay's contention was that fans never know if the players are slacking off or are simply too tired, sick, injured, drunk or stoned to perform well. And he's right about that. But the opposite is also true: We DO know when the players ARE making a genuine all-out effort.

And we like it!

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 12:32 PM
Jay was the one with that thread, not me

PaceBalls
01-28-2007, 12:47 PM
Good Points guys.
From what I have seen so far the biggest improvement is we have so many different options. Adding another big man to help Jeff opened alot of different possibilities for Ricks adjustments and helped so much on the rebounding. It was an obvious glaring need.

Having a Wing player who doesn't have to make every play an ISO play in Junior has opened up the game up alot for the players who can really create well like Marquis. With Jackson and AL on the court, Marquis never had that oppurtunity. He was last on the list and was not being utilized properly at all.

I don't think we can say it was a lack of effort before the trade, at least not with SJax... because SJax, for all his faults, is a great effort player. He really cares and gives his all... to a fault (whining at refs, angry at the coach for having to come out).

The pieces just fit better eh? A flush beats 3 of a kind.

lafayettepacer
01-28-2007, 12:49 PM
It is nice to see the effort and team play. I might actually go to a game again.

brichard
01-28-2007, 01:00 PM
I don't disagree with your point, the team is putting forth the effort. But the biggest difference to me with the new team is that they are playing more like a team.

In my experience, effort and teamwork usually go hand and hand. Effort to me means to play strong defense and to go after loose balls. Effort requires a person to make that extra pass where you get a great shot vs. a good shot. It means setting a solid screen vs. a 1/2 a$$ screen. And on and on it goes.

I guess it is possible to have effort without team play, but usually they are a byproduct of each other.

brichard
01-28-2007, 01:14 PM
Good Points guys.
I don't think we can say it was a lack of effort before the trade, at least not with SJax... because SJax, for all his faults, is a great effort player. He really cares and gives his all... to a fault (whining at refs, angry at the coach for having to come out).

The pieces just fit better eh? A flush beats 3 of a kind.

I think there is truth to what you are saying, but I think that the three players we gave up were often deceptive in their effort level. Jax could work really hard on defense, but then get lax on offense. Where he would settle for jacking up a three vs. working the offense.

Al would work hard on offense, and his shot attempts would often reflect it, but couldn't he have been a better rebounder? defender? Sarunas played hard on offense, but instead of complaining about not being a SG, could he have spent more time becoming a better SG? Could he have worked harder at his ball handling and defensive skills?

As far as my overall effort meter:

Dun effort>Jax
Armstrong effort>Sarunas
Murph effort>Harrington

odeez
01-28-2007, 01:45 PM
I agree on the effort, this team is a team now. Reading JO's comments about passing the ball and keeping the defenses honest was great to read. It seems he understands what it will take. Danny looks awesome, trading Al was the best thing for him. Teams must start to respect his 3 pt touches now and that will only help spread the floor even more. Dun Dun and Murph play the game the right way and make us a much better team. It's awesome, this team looks more stable, and you don't see anyone chucking up shots and playing outside what the team is doing. Quis has also become a pleasant surprise, his game keeps the defenses off balance, and he always seems to make good plays.

Now it would be great if we can go into Detroit tonight and beat them again, that would be sweet. We must treat this game like the playoffs, every game until we get to the top the of the East. I am sick and tired of no respect of our Pacers, tired of reading about Detroit, Cleveland, etc...

Go Pacers!

ABADays
01-28-2007, 01:51 PM
We've talked about this before in many threads. A lot of us are not the X's and O's type fans that many here are. But . . . I have said this many, many times. We do recognize effort. We do recognize being team players. We do recognize there is a right way to play the game. Even though we might not be able to explain it, we know it when we see it.

This new team is very, very refreshing and I think the front office deserves a ton of credit for it.

Swingman
01-28-2007, 02:45 PM
I agree on the effort, this team is a team now. Reading JO's comments about passing the ball and keeping the defenses honest was great to read. It seems he understands what it will take. Danny looks awesome, trading Al was the best thing for him. Teams must start to respect his 3 pt touches now and that will only help spread the floor even more. Dun Dun and Murph play the game the right way and make us a much better team. It's awesome, this team looks more stable, and you don't see anyone chucking up shots and playing outside what the team is doing. Quis has also become a pleasant surprise, his game keeps the defenses off balance, and he always seems to make good plays.

Now it would be great if we can go into Detroit tonight and beat them again, that would be sweet. We must treat this game like the playoffs, every game until we get to the top the of the East. I am sick and tired of no respect of our Pacers, tired of reading about Detroit, Cleveland, etc...

Go Pacers!

Where can I find these JO quotes you refer to? thanks

Hicks
01-28-2007, 02:55 PM
We've talked about this before in many threads. A lot of us are not the X's and O's type fans that many here are. But . . . I have said this many, many times. We do recognize effort. We do recognize being team players. We do recognize there is a right way to play the game. Even though we might not be able to explain it, we know it when we see it.

This new team is very, very refreshing and I think the front office deserves a ton of credit for it.

Amen!

LG33
01-28-2007, 02:59 PM
Troy Murphy is not attractive.

able
01-28-2007, 03:05 PM
cutout from today's Star:
"Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal knows the constant double- and triple-teams will continue to come the rest of the season.

So rather than force his shot, O'Neal is trying to make the defense pay by hitting his cutting teammates in the lane and finding open perimeter shooters.
O'Neal showed his passing skills when he tied his career high in assists with seven in the Pacers' 102-84 victory over the Toronto Raptors on Saturday night.
"I can't get it," O'Neal said about just missing a career high in assists. "I didn't have my normal 10-rebound game. I was really focused on trying to get my teammates the ball."
O'Neal didn't shoot particularly well -- 6-of-14 -- but it was better than his 4-of-20 and 8-of-22 performances against Miami and Chicago last week.
O'Neal said he wants to shy away from attempting more than 20 shots a game. He'd rather keep that number around 14 or 15 so his teammates will get enough touches.
"If I have to take 20-plus shots for the team, I will, but in order to get guys comfortable and keep the defense honest, I have to share the ball a little more," O'Neal said."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070128/SPORTS04/701280439/1088

odeez
01-28-2007, 03:23 PM
Where can I find these JO quotes you refer to? thanks

Able already posted it, but he you go again.

From Indystar.com

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal knows the constant double- and triple-teams will continue to come the rest of the season.<!-- PHOTO & FACTBOX --><!-- ARTICLE SIDEBAR --> <table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="210"> <tbody><tr> </tr> <tr> <td> <!--MAIN PHOTO--> <!--MAIN FACTS BOX--> </td> </tr> </tbody></table><!-- REMAINING TEXT -->

So rather than force his shot, O'Neal is trying to make the defense pay by hitting his cutting teammates in the lane and finding open perimeter shooters.

O'Neal showed his passing skills when he tied his career high in assists with seven in the Pacers' 102-84 victory over the Toronto Raptors on Saturday night.


"I can't get it," O'Neal said about just missing a career high in assists. "I didn't have my normal 10-rebound game. I was really focused on trying to get my teammates the ball."


O'Neal didn't shoot particularly well -- 6-of-14 -- but it was better than his 4-of-20 and 8-of-22 performances against Miami and Chicago last week.
O'Neal said he wants to shy away from attempting more than 20 shots a game. He'd rather keep that number around 14 or 15 so his teammates will get enough touches.


"If I have to take 20-plus shots for the team, I will, but in order to get guys comfortable and keep the defense honest, I have to share the ball a little more," O'Neal said.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070128/SPORTS04/701280439/1088

Swingman
01-28-2007, 03:27 PM
thanks for the JO quotes. Definitely looks promising that we finally have a team.

Unclebuck
01-28-2007, 05:16 PM
One reason why JO might be more willing to pass the ball is because he knows there is a chance he'll get it back. In fact I've seen it several times already where Murphy has gotten a pass from JO and Murph has thrown back into Jermaine, re-posting. Dunleavy has also done this several times. Jax and Al I don't recall ever doing it. That willingness to pass the ball is very contagious.

Of course I also need to state the obvious, JO is probably more willing to pass the ball to Murph than he is to Jeff. Although Jeff and Murhp are in completely different areas of the floor when JO gets the ball. Troy is spotting up. Jeff is on the opposite box getting ready to reound

imawhat
01-28-2007, 05:49 PM
One reason why JO might be more willing to pass the ball is because he knows there is a chance he'll get it back. In fact I've seen it several times already where Murphy has gotten a pass from JO and Murph has thrown back into Jermaine, re-posting. Dunleavy has also done this several times. Jax and Al I don't recall ever doing it. That willingness to pass the ball is very contagious.


Yep, there have been a ton of re-entry passes in the past five or six games. It started happening right before the trade but there have been even more since.

Al and Stephen were both great post up guys; neither of the new guys are as good at getting those looks. I think the trade makes other teams focus in on Jermaine more, and his comments reflect that. I'm glad he's saying it, because it's the only way it will all work.

imawhat
01-28-2007, 05:56 PM
I don't think we can say it was a lack of effort before the trade, at least not with SJax... because SJax, for all his faults, is a great effort player. He really cares and gives his all... to a fault (whining at refs, angry at the coach for having to come out).



I'll agree with you that Jax cared about as much as anyone we've had on the team, but I think that's slightly different than effort. When was the last time you saw Stephen dive for a loose ball? And in reverse, how many times did his man beat him down the floor? This year his effort was a LOT more consistent than it has been, but I've never had the impression that he was wearing himself out on the floor.


Mike Dunleavy though, he gives me that impression. He's inconsistent in his shooting/scoring, but I'm glad to know that he's always going to try his hardest. Same with Armstrong; it's easier to swallow his defensive gambles knowing that he's trying.