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Hicks
01-24-2007, 10:43 PM
How impressive was it to come back from 20 down to pull this out? I'm very impressed with this new team. We traded Al, Jack, and Sarunas for Dunleavy, Murphy, Ike, a better Marquis, and a better Granger.

odeez
01-24-2007, 10:46 PM
Great game, huge in that they came back and seemed to stay calm in OT. Those who are starting threads saying Dun and Murph are horrible need to open their eyes. I'm very happy with this win!

ABADays
01-24-2007, 10:47 PM
Just how much does Armstrong mean to this team?

TheDon
01-24-2007, 10:47 PM
I am really encouraged to know that JO had like the worst shooting night of his life, rick pulls JO, Ike comes in gets about 4 or 5 rebounds 8 or 10 points in 11 minutes and our ben REALLY pulls its weight. and T-money finishes them off by being clutch down the stretch.

Aw Heck
01-24-2007, 10:47 PM
It definitely didn't look good in the 3rd quarter. But the turning point in the game was the first few minutes of the 4th, when Danny and Red Bull went crazy and just took over the game.

Even though JO didn't shoot well, he still managed to get a double-double.

I'm really starting to like this trade. Our frontcourt with JO, Murphy, Foster, and even Diogu is playing really well so far. They're giving other teams trouble.

And how about Marquis Daniels? He has been playing great ever since the trade. I definitely like his shot selection, which is better compared to the players that were traded away.

Jermaniac
01-24-2007, 10:48 PM
42.9 IND - T. Murphy made a 16-foot jumper along the left baseline. Assist: J. Tinsley

Tins dragged 2 DEFENDERS, TWO, with him and turned around and found Troy Murphy with a textbook pass. He was very efficient tonight, didnt force his shot, didnt take a crap load of shots and found the open man. HOW SWEET IT IS.

Ohh all yall that want to crap on Jamaal Tinsley and blame him for everything. DA almost killed it for us in the last minute with his dribbling and not being able to put up a shot with 24 seconds,and not being able to find JO and giving Miami a chance to end the game. I know DA is the reason we came back in this game, but Tins does that many times only to have people forget what he did in the last minute of the game.

Refs screwed us many times tonight, JO should have at least 10 FT's to his name tonight but whatever. We won.

I LOVE QUIS

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-24-2007, 10:48 PM
Sounds like it was quite the comeback. Wish I could have seen it. Looks like JO had a horrible shooting night, so that's even better that we won. If the team could do this well AND JO is having a solid night - sounds promising.

PostArtestEra
01-24-2007, 10:48 PM
I have to ask, who should start Dunleavy or Marquis? I like Marquis better but I have no problem with him coming off the bench so long as he gets minutes.

ilive4sports
01-24-2007, 10:49 PM
Woo hoo! What a game. Murphy was huge. DA, Quis, and Granger all came up big in the comeback. JO had a horrible shooting night, but did you notice during our run he wasnt demanding the ball? He was rebounding too. A little bright spot in his bad game. Tinsley wasnt horrible but wasnt great. Too many turnovers. He shot well though. But he was also out when we made our run.

So who else wants Quis to be the starting PG? He has impressed me the past couple of games. He can handle the ball and distribute it too. Also he plays defense. Im starting to think that he may be our best option at PG now. I was skeptical at first but with him and MD as the point forward i think we would be better off than just Tinsley.

Hicks
01-24-2007, 10:50 PM
Just how much does Armstrong mean to this team?

All too much I'm afraid. And I only say that because he's at the end of his career, give or take a season. If we had the young DA we'd be in business.

docpaul
01-24-2007, 10:51 PM
How impressive was it to come back from 20 down to pull this out? I'm very impressed with this new team. We traded Al, Jack, and Sarunas for Dunleavy, Murphy, Ike, a better Marquis, and a better Granger.

Clear that Granger loves the trade. Pointed to "big improvement" having MDJ, Murph, Diogu around in his post-game interview. Good sign, methinks.

Hicks
01-24-2007, 10:52 PM
And how about Ike Diogu? I think I'm falling in love. :love: This guy is tough, he can score with his back to the basket, facing the basket, and surprisingly looked smooth taking an 18-footer from the baseline. The guy just plays tough. And he also is an 80% free throw shooter!

ABADays
01-24-2007, 10:52 PM
All too much I'm afraid. And I only say that because he's at the end of his career, give or take a season. If we had the young DA we'd be in business.

We are in business Hicks - he's showing how it's done.

arenn
01-24-2007, 10:53 PM
The last two games really showed us the potential of this team. I think we'll see ups and downs, but when this group is on, they look good.

The thing that really impressed me was how the withstood the runs by the other team. They held off a big run by Chicago. Tonight they played horrible at the start, couldn't buy a basket, but hung in there. In the third when they were down 20 they didn't give up. When they almost blew it at the end of regulation, they didn't let it ruin their composure. That sort of mental toughness is what we need in the team.

A few observations:

- Even though JO was not getting his shot to fall, I liked his play. He had 13 boards and he didn't give up. Nor did I feel he forced a lot of things.

- Foster gave us a nice lift off the bench, but it is looking more and more like he is expendable. Murphy is like Foster with an offensive game. We can run things like the high pick and roll with him that we just can't do with Foster. It makes all five guys a legitimate threat. Foster may end up being the biggest casualty of this trade. As much as I like him and admire his hustle, the early returns suggest Murphy is a better fit on the team.

- Good ensemble performance. Pretty much all of our guys contributed. Tinsley gave us needed scoring early. Armstrong was a spark off the bench. Granger finally started hitting. Foster was energy guy in the 3rd to launch the rally. JO kept battling. Etc.

- Yes, Virginia, we can play defense. I know it didn't look like it in the first 2 1/2 quarters, but we showed that we are capable of playing decent defense if we want to. As these guys gel, it should only get better.

- For those who say Granger can't play defense, I thought he did a decent job on Wade there at the end. He clearly needs to mature, but the potential is there.

I guess most importantly this team is just a lot more fun to watch. There are certainly some bad stretches of play, but the good stretches show the potential. We've got a significant opportunity to pile up some wins here before the other teams figure out the adjustments they need to make. Let's take advantage.

Shade
01-24-2007, 10:53 PM
Prediction: Pacers win by 2

:nod:

DG4mvp
01-24-2007, 10:54 PM
Daniels needs to get 30 min a night, not negotiable

ABADays
01-24-2007, 10:57 PM
Armstrong remind anyone of another "old timer" we picked up at one time to help get us over the hump?

Hicks
01-24-2007, 10:57 PM
- Foster gave us a nice lift off the bench, but it is looking more and more like he is expendable. Murphy is like Foster with an offensive game. We can run things like the high pick and roll with him that we just can't do with Foster. It makes all five guys a legitimate threat. Foster may end up being the biggest casualty of this trade. As much as I like him and admire his hustle, the early returns suggest Murphy is a better fit on the team.

While I agree that Murphy is the better fit, I don't think you can give up Foster unless you're packaging him with Tinsley for a better PG. We FINALLY have a solid front court again, let's not be quick to dismantle it in any way. This front line

Granger/Williams
O'Neal/Diogu
Murphy/Foster

Is a very good one to have. I enjoy all of those players and they all bring something to the table (least of all Williams, but he's a rookie). I'm not hot to break that up at all.

Hicks
01-24-2007, 10:58 PM
Daniels needs to get 30 min a night, not negotiable

How many did he play tonight? I like him where he is now. Dunleavy and he both bring a lot to the table, and both need minutes.

JayRedd
01-24-2007, 10:59 PM
Troy played well tonight and I've liked Dunleavy and Ike so far...But all that is just gravy on top of what we really got in this deal: Danny Granger and Marquis Daniels. These guys are good.

Just by Danny's demeanor you can tell he really relishes knowing that he's not coming out for the next 8 minutes unless he picks up a bunch of fouls. It's doing wonders for his confidence already and he really seems to enjoy his new role. I've never seen him put up so many shots without hesitation. It's a great sight to see.

And I have to say that I was probably wrong about Marquis. He hadn't done much to impress me until the other night. But he's doing great with his extended burn too. He gets to the lane better than any non-PG we've had since...since...well, since I started watching these guys in '92.

I'm liking the changes.

Cobol Sam
01-24-2007, 11:04 PM
I'm keeping my eye on 76ers vs Cavs. 2nd overtime 36 seconds left, 112 - 107 76ers

TheDon
01-24-2007, 11:05 PM
In the by the way department Cleveland is Losing to Philly in overtime

Isaac
01-24-2007, 11:05 PM
Armstrong remind anyone of another "old timer" we picked up at one time to help get us over the hump?

Tim Hardaway? ;)

What a fantastic win tonight. Dunleavy was awful out there for stretches. He did do some things well for periods, and he played help defense pretty well, but I hope we don't get this Dunleavy more often then the one we saw against Chicago.

Tinsley was good for the most part. If this is the Tinsley we get with this team we'll be fine.

As well as Darrell is playing its heartbreaking that he's 38. I keep thinking "If only this were Darrell 6 years ago..."

JO has had 2 horrible shooting games in a row, but I'm not worried. He got absolutely hammered without a call several times tonight. When he wasn't getting hammered they played pretty solid defense on him. Miami defended him very well tonight, but he still hit some big shots and played well defensively. I also liked that he clearly didn't care about going back in when we were making a run in the 4th.

Ike Diogu baby, get used to this. For as long as he continues to play limited minutes this is what we'll get. A guy that will give his all and contribute as much as possible when he's out there. That 19 footer he hit was money, and his post game is even a little more refined then I thought. He finishes under the rim 150 times better then Al does that's for sure.

Murph was very good.

Quis and Danny, how much more can you say.

D-BONE
01-24-2007, 11:08 PM
While I agree that Murphy is the better fit, I don't think you can give up Foster unless you're packaging him with Tinsley for a better PG. We FINALLY have a solid front court again, let's not be quick to dismantle it in any way. This front line

Granger/Williams
O'Neal/Diogu
Murphy/Foster

Is a very good one to have. I enjoy all of those players and they all bring something to the table (least of all Williams, but he's a rookie). I'm not hot to break that up at all.

For me it would have to be a no brainer in our favor to give up Foster. He's a valuable guy off the bench even in reduced minutes. He can come with more energy due to that and you need dirty work, hustle, good attitude guys. Plus he plays pretty solid position D IMO. And what if JO or Murphy goes down for a signifcant length of time?

Post-trade throwing Diogu into the mix I'm almost more inclined to a change of previous opinion. I'd would seriously consider sending out Williams before Foster. Or Baston or Harrison but, of course, they wouldn't command much I suppose.

Speed
01-24-2007, 11:10 PM
Jeff isn't at all expendable. He is by far our best low post one on one defender. He can guard the Rasheed's, Bosh's, Duncan's, and Garnetts as well as anyone. He gets to be a spark player off the bench, which frankly is where he can make the biggest difference and should have been all along. I really really like him and Ike off the bench. It's like phew JO and Murphy are getting a rest the other team thinks they can relax and you have Foster climbing over, around through you and Ike knocking you down with go go gadget arms. Very exciting, imo.

Also, and I love Murphy, but lets be honest he's not the quickest guy, he's more clever. Ike's in that foul every 4 minute young guy club (to which yes Harrison is their president). And JO really doesn't need to have to play the other teams be 4/5 defensively every night. They need Foster and would really feel his loss against alot of teams.

arenn
01-24-2007, 11:11 PM
While I agree that Murphy is the better fit, I don't think you can give up Foster unless you're packaging him with Tinsley for a better PG. We FINALLY have a solid front court again, let's not be quick to dismantle it in any way. This front line

Granger/Williams
O'Neal/Diogu
Murphy/Foster

Is a very good one to have. I enjoy all of those players and they all bring something to the table (least of all Williams, but he's a rookie). I'm not hot to break that up at all.

I agree it's not necessary to trade Foster at this point. But if you were looking for other deals to do, you'd have to have to consider him in the mix. Foster got 19 minutes tonight and he is probably looking at 15-20 a game the way things are going. I think he has a role on this team and can be a great force for us off the bench. But will he be happy with that? This is a guy who was an NBA starter and could be again. I think he was key to our comeback tonight with his energy. But his role has already diminished significantly.

We do seem to have a problem that there are a lot of guys that could legitimately play a lot of minutes and not enough of them to go around.

TheDon
01-24-2007, 11:12 PM
CLEVELAND LOST!!!

Frank Slade
01-24-2007, 11:13 PM
In the by the way department Cleveland is Losing to Philly in overtime

Cleveland loses !! Philadelphia 118, Cleveland 115

OnlyPacersLeft
01-24-2007, 11:13 PM
we rock! WOOOOO lets keep chasing the cavs!

Hicks
01-24-2007, 11:16 PM
Jeff isn't at all expendable. He is by far our best low post one on one defender. He can guard the Rasheed's, Bosh's, Duncan's, and Garnetts as well as anyone. He gets to be a spark player off the bench, which frankly is where he can make the biggest difference and should have been all along. I really really like him and Ike off the bench. It's like phew JO and Murphy are getting a rest the other team thinks they can relax and you have Foster climbing over, around through you and Ike knocking you down with go go gadget arms. Very exciting, imo.

Also, and I love Murphy, but lets be honest he's not the quickest guy, he's more clever. Ike's in that foul every 4 minute young guy club (to which yes Harrison is their president). And JO really doesn't need to have to play the other teams be 4/5 defensively every night. They need Foster and would really feel his loss against alot of teams.

Absolutely exciting!! I love having those two off the bench! Hustle and power!

TheDon
01-24-2007, 11:16 PM
As long as Dallas pulls their weight we could tie the bulls if we take care of business against the Barney's this weekend.

Hicks
01-24-2007, 11:17 PM
I agree it's not necessary to trade Foster at this point. But if you were looking for other deals to do, you'd have to have to consider him in the mix. Foster got 19 minutes tonight and he is probably looking at 15-20 a game the way things are going. I think he has a role on this team and can be a great force for us off the bench. But will he be happy with that?

Foster has been nothing but a team player his entire career. He'll play whatever amount Carlisle wants/needs him to play, and he won't complain if he's starting or subbing. I have no doubt about that. That's one of the reasons he's such an ideal backup bigman: Off the bench he brings spark, hustle, energy, and usually produces similar numbers to what he does as a starter. Only now he's relieving an even better big man who gets to start ahead of him.

ABADays
01-24-2007, 11:19 PM
Fostah - Australian for 3!

Anthem
01-24-2007, 11:20 PM
Tim Hardaway? ;)
Thought the same thing. If nobody else answered I was going to say TIMMAAAAY!

Hicks
01-24-2007, 11:20 PM
Fostah - Australian for 3!

I hope not. :uhoh:

speakout4
01-24-2007, 11:21 PM
What I saw was spirit and heart. Never mind the great Tinsley assist or the overzealous shot by DA coming off a steal. IMO only DA could have brought this team back from a 20 point deficit. That mindset, hustle and enthusiasm may not appear in the boxscore tonight but we know what we saw and so did the refs.

ABADays
01-24-2007, 11:26 PM
Thought the same thing. If nobody else answered I was going to say TIMMAAAAY!

Byron Scott

MaHa3000
01-24-2007, 11:27 PM
The Pacers are exciting again!!!! Tell your friends!!!!!!!

ABADays
01-24-2007, 11:29 PM
I hope not. :uhoh:

I forgot to give Scot Pollard credit for that one in his "Reggie's Gone" video.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-24-2007, 11:38 PM
Dunleavy had an off night tonight but looked to get others involved and hustled on defense and that was encouraging. Something we didn't get to see much with Jackson at SG.

We have an assortment of guys who can step it up at any given time and it's been showing recently.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 11:39 PM
Wow that was a lot of fun at least the 4th quarter and OT was. First time I've seen the new guys in person and I always figure you get a better feel for things when you see them up close.

I'm really happy that Ike played well. One thing I noticed from the crowd that was at the game - it seems fans expect Ike to be like Dale Davis in his rookie year. The people around me were shocked that he hit his free throws, hit a 15 foot baseline jumper and overall just has a nice touch. I assume all of you know about his offense - but I guess the average fan doesn't. My guess is if I polled everyone in attendance tonight probably less than 10% know that Diogu is a better free throw shooter than Dun and Murphy both career and this season.

I was impressed with Diogu's defense - not that it was great, but he certainly isn't David Harrison - Ike has a clue and I thought he did a great job helping out on the pick and rolls. However he did make one really boneheaded play when he didn't sink into the lane to pick up the open guy in the lane - instead he picked up a guy 20 feet from the basket.

Tonight we saw something that I'm not surprised about - Dunleavy's shooting. I sense that the crowd expects Mike to be a great shooter - he isn't and never has been. Of course he's better than tonight. But he didn't take one bad shot - so I have no probelm with his game tonight.

Not sure if anyone has noticed I've really haven't posted much on Murphy - I wanted to observe him in person before I drew any conclusions. As everyone knows I love Jeff Foster's game especially his defense. So I admit I've been leery of Murphy starting over Jeff. I know Murphy can shot and rebound, but I was concerned about his defense and about his overall energy level. But my fears are put to rest for now. His defense isn't terrible, he's smart, and he plays hard even though he looks like he's about to die at there at times. So I'm OK with Murph starting.

OK enough with the new guys.

The key coaching move tonight was putting DA on Wade. He basically stopped Wade's penetration, sure he posted up a few times on DA, but it is so much easier to double a post player than it is a perimeter player. DA was great again tonight a few of his drives to the hoop were hilarious. One thing I guess I didn't realize about Wade - is how good his defense is. I was nervous everytime his man had the ball because I expected him to steal it.

Daniels and Granger were huge in the 4th - DG hitting threes and Daniels penetrating - the combo of DA and Daniels looks like a keeper to me. That is the Daniels I saw in Dallas and that is the Daniels that caused me to beg the pacers to go after him.

OK, I'm losing steam here. I want to say one thing about JO's game. yes I know he didn't shoot well - but I liked the way he played - his rebounding has improved - I think I ever saw him block out once tonight.

OK, that is enough for now - I like Ike - he looks mechanical out there but he can score the ball.

But I certainly see why Ike, Dun and Murph didn't fit in Nellie's system - none of them are good runners.

Oh, one last thing, don't forget Jeff played the whole 4th quarter - (until the last Offensive play) and he had sveral huge plays. Stripped Wade made several hustle plays

LoneGranger33
01-24-2007, 11:39 PM
I just saw the Espn.com highlights for the game...umm, why didn't Gary Payton shoot that last shot...he was wide open, no?

owl
01-24-2007, 11:39 PM
Fostah - Australian for 3!

I hope it still means be-ah. :- )

I believe that Pacers fleeced Golden State. I hope it works out for GS but I
believe with time it will become obvious. Are the Pacers trying to destroy the
western conference? Lets see, Dallas, Sacramento, and Golden State.
Dallas is doing great but the Pacers really did not help them and
with Quis coming here they lost a good player. He really has an even
personality. Quite the opposite from the previous shooting guard.
I think everyone will agree(mostly everyone), that point guard is where
the most help is needed. DA is great but it just can't last, very sad.
However I am not sure there is really anything out there that is good enough and available.

BlueNGold
01-24-2007, 11:44 PM
The combination of spreading the floor, unselfish play and better rebounding have made this a good trade for the Pacers. I originally was excited about the idea of JO having more space to work. Now, I am seeing that better rebounding might be even more important.

The new guys got 40% of the rebounds using only 27% of the minutes. I'm sure it would have been the other way around with Mr. 1 rebound on the floor.

IMO, each rebound is worth 2 pts, not 1. If you don't get the possession (worth 1 pt to you), I will get it (worth 1 pt to me)....a difference of 2 points. So Murphy put up 41 points tonight on only 12 shots!

Granger has been given the keys to the car and, unlike Jack and Al, will not drive it into a tree. Instead, he is capable of delivering consistent production. He really is significantly better than either of them...and is just getting started. Williams will also be better than them IMO. Quis is also being given an opportunity and is delivering some solid play. The trade has given better players more of an opportunity.

This TEAM is now fun to watch!

TheDon
01-24-2007, 11:47 PM
some of the things that impressed me was Ike coming in as serviceable backup for JO. I thin we should continue to "feed the beast" and let him mature that one move he made on shaq where he took a step out and then just attacked the basket forcing shaq to commit a foul. I know it's Shaq and I know it's getting old but still...that was a 23 year old going up against a very very experienced shaquille o'neal. Ike just looked really poised on that move. He'll become everything we wanted Harrison to be

In the earlier part of the game in the first part something that surprised me was Dunleavy's ballhandling the crossover, the behind the back pass, he might have had a bad shooting night but everybody has those and he always finds other ways to help the team out if his shot is not falling.

Murphy is our starting center now, I love Jeff just as much as the next Jeff fan but people have said it before. Jeff is not a starter but a quality big man off the bench. Murphy just was so clutch down the stretch too guy had icewater running through his veins.

Tinsley had a good shooting night he turned the ball over quite a bit but so did everyone else, one thing I think I noticed is he's starting to have more faith in the people around him and there's moments where you can tell he's thinking pass first and I think that will improve. If that improves for Tinsley I'll be very very happy and for once maybe everyone can love this team again. I'm just as guilty as everyone else with trying to find the quick fix and bringing up trade situations but i'm happy with what i'm seeing.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 11:48 PM
I hesitate to bring this up. But if Harrison comes back and takes one second away from Diogu I will be very upset. DH needs to be traded, he should have been traded over a year ago when he had some trade value.

kellogg
01-24-2007, 11:49 PM
42.9 IND - T. Murphy made a 16-foot jumper along the left baseline. Assist: J. Tinsley

Tins dragged 2 DEFENDERS, TWO, with him and turned around and found Troy Murphy with a textbook pass. He was very efficient tonight, didnt force his shot, didnt take a crap load of shots and found the open man. HOW SWEET IT IS.

Ohh all yall that want to crap on Jamaal Tinsley and blame him for everything. DA almost killed it for us in the last minute with his dribbling and not being able to put up a shot with 24 seconds,and not being able to find JO and giving Miami a chance to end the game. I know DA is the reason we came back in this game, but Tins does that many times only to have people forget what he did in the last minute of the game.

Refs screwed us many times tonight, JO should have at least 10 FT's to his name tonight but whatever. We won.

I LOVE QUIS

Tinsley is awful...period. Without DA this game would have ended as a blowout. Tinsley's court demeanor and energy level is a diametric opposite to DA's...Tins plays like he took some 'ludes just before tipoff.
And any decent PG in the league would have seen Murphy that open...I'm just surprised Tinsley didn't try to do his streetball/one-on-one junk with Wade like he did against Marbury last week that cost us the game.

The two Pacers that need to go now are Tinsley and Harrison...maybe Mullin will cut us another deal.

After watching Diogu and Murphy tonight, and Dun the last couple of games, I'm really wondering if this trade will end up being better than the fleecing of the Bulls a few years ago when we got Artest-Mercer-Miller for Rose.

kellogg
01-24-2007, 11:51 PM
I hesitate to bring this up. But if Harrison comes back and takes one second away from Diogu I will be very upset. DH needs to be traded, he should have been traded over a year ago when he had some trade value.

AMEN...AMEN...AMEN

I'd love to see DW trade Harrison and Tinsley together...too bad this isn't football where we can just cut them.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-24-2007, 11:54 PM
I think were getting a little carried away with wanting to trade our bigs. Remember injuries do occur (we ALL shouldn't forget that looking back on the past two years) and it's nice to have depth at 4 the and 5.

kellogg
01-24-2007, 11:55 PM
I hope it still means be-ah. :- )


I think everyone will agree(mostly everyone), that point guard is where
the most help is needed. DA is great but it just can't last, very sad.
However I am not sure there is really anything out there that is good enough and available.

Just curious to know what anyone's thoughts are on Chris Duhon? I know he can't shoot, but at least in games I've seen he seems to know his limitations and not try to force things. Seems no worse defensively than what we have in Tinsley. Just wish we could get an energetic PG who is a younger version of DA.

kellogg
01-24-2007, 11:58 PM
I think were getting a little carried away with wanting to trade our bigs. Remember injuries do occur (we ALL shouldn't forget that looking back on the past two years) and it's nice to have depth at 4 the and 5.

I enjoyed watching two rebounding forces out there tonight...whether it was Murphy-JO or Foster-Diogu.
I just don't see Harrison ever becoming anything...he has not once ounce of maturity. You can predict at a minimum two fouls in his first two minutes in.

BlueNGold
01-24-2007, 11:59 PM
I hesitate to bring this up. But if Harrison comes back and takes one second away from Diogu I will be very upset. DH needs to be traded, he should have been traded over a year ago when he had some trade value.

Ike is going to be great and is simply more talented than Harrison.

Miami is the type of team that should give him the most problems on the block....with Shaq and especially Zo. I really liked the way he took the ball out 15 ft and easily scored. He is really going to be special. He is such a tough cover because he can also move very well with the ball. He will be an absolute beast. Just wait when he gets going against almost any other front line. He will dominate in the post.

TheDon
01-25-2007, 12:01 AM
I'm kind of wondering how serviceable mcleoud(sp?) is going to be if he's anywhere as capable as Darrel Armstrong is on defense and assists and only half as good as offense I think it will be fair to say that we really ripped golden state in this trade.

Something else i've been thinking about the whole reason we got al in or were able to obtain al in the first place was cause New Orleans Hornets owner did a favor for Donnie and we were also keeping Al from going to Golden State...wonder how that guy feels now? :laugh:

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:01 AM
Just curious to know what anyone's thoughts are on Chris Duhon? I know he can't shoot, but at least in games I've seen he seems to know his limitations and not try to force things. Seems no worse defensively than what we have in Tinsley. Just wish we could get an energetic PG who is a younger version of DA.

I brought his name up the other day. Harrison for Duhon - the Bulls need a low post offensive player. Duhon isn't that good, but I thought his defense was very solid - but his shooting is average and he's not a playmaker.

I sure would trade DH for him.

BlueNGold
01-25-2007, 12:04 AM
I know DH has stunk, but I suspect we can get more for him simply due to his size and athleticism....and youth. Someone will give us more than Duhon for him.

pacerpride
01-25-2007, 12:05 AM
Nice game by most everyone. I couldn't even tell you the last time a Pacer team came back from a 20-point deficit in the second half. That will build some mental fortitude going forward.

Fox's coverage was pissing me off. On at least two occasions, they were late coming out of replays and missing quite a bit of live game action.

Isaac
01-25-2007, 12:06 AM
I've been a big fan of Harrison's since his rookie year, but I think I would trade him for literally anything now. He's completely useless after the Diogu acquisition. I can't see Rick not recognizing that and giving David minutes.

I'm still torn on Tinsley's future with this team though. In a few weeks I'll have a more cemented opinion on that.

TheDon
01-25-2007, 12:10 AM
Can someone give me an informed opinion on what Mcleoud can bring to this team, I've never even heard of the guy prior to this trade. Any kind of info anyone can give would be appreciated. :)

Anthem
01-25-2007, 12:10 AM
AMEN...AMEN...AMEN

I'd love to see DW trade Harrison and Tinsley together...too bad this isn't football where we can just cut them.
That would be stupid. We REALLY wouldn't be able to improve the team then.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:12 AM
Carlisle made an interesting remark in his post game press conference. Paraphrasing: he said something to the effect that right now they need a shot of enthusism and shot of energy. - I know what he means - that is my one concern about the starting 5. No energy players - no players that are enthusiastic. That conerns me. That seems to be the biggest problem Warriors fans had with Murphy and Dunleavy and I'm worried about that.

One thing I noticed tonight is that Dunleavy and Murphy and I think Diogu all be very quiet people. I'm not talking about their play, I'm just talking about their personality - I didn't see them inter-acting much at all with their teammates. I'm not talking about on the court during the game or even on the court when the ball is being taken out of bounds or on free throws. They communicate with their teammates about basketball stuff

I'm talking about on the bench, during warmups, coming out of the locker room - the non-basketball stuff. Completely different personalities than Al and Jax who were always talking and joking around

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - but just making an observation - the Pacers have a really different personality as a team. Maybe a more serious approach was needed


Edit. OK good here is the quote from Rick I was referring too. I have this same concern.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/quotes_070124.html

"We’re looking for anything to catapult us forward to get better. We’ve got new guys who are terrific people and good basketball players. But we’ve got to search for some real emotion as a team. We need it collectively. We’ve got a good basketball team but we need some emotional fire out there."

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:18 AM
Carlisle made an interesting remark in his post game press conference. Paraphrasing: he said something to the effect that right now they need a shot of enthusism and shot of energy. - I know what he means - that is my one concern about the starting 5. No energy players - no players that are enthusiastic. That conerns me. That seems to be the biggest problem Warriors fans had with Murphy and Dunleavy and I'm worried about that.

One thing I noticed tonight is that Dunleavy and Murphy and I think Diogu all be very quiet people. I'm not talking about their play, I'm just talking about their personality - I didn't see them inter-acting much at all with their teammates. I'm not talking about on the court during the game or even on the court when the ball is being taken out of bounds or on free throws. They communicate with their teammates about basketball stuff

I'm talking about on the bench, during warmups, coming out of the locker room - the non-basketball stuff. Completely different personalities than Al and Jax who were always talking and joking around

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - but just making an observation - the Pacers have a really different personality as a team. Maybe a more serious approach was neededWatching the Warriors the past few years and following Ike closely made me think the same thing. When he is sitting on the bench, he looks like he hates his whole team.

I seen Dunleavy talking to JO alot and laughing it up with DA. Murphy I dont see no facial expressions on him, never got happy even after some of the big shots he hit.

But hey as long as they are not causing problems and I'm sure they wont be, I dont care if they are not jumping around and laughing.

pacerpride
01-25-2007, 12:22 AM
Carlisle made an interesting remark in his post game press conference. Paraphrasing: he said something to the effect that right now they need a shot of enthusism and shot of energy. - I know what he means - that is my one concern about the starting 5. No energy players - no players that are enthusiastic. That conerns me. That seems to be the biggest problem Warriors fans had with Murphy and Dunleavy and I'm worried about that.

One thing I noticed tonight is that Dunleavy and Murphy and I think Diogu all be very quiet people. I'm not talking about their play, I'm just talking about their personality - I didn't see them inter-acting much at all with their teammates. I'm not talking about on the court during the game or even on the court when the ball is being taken out of bounds or on free throws. They communicate with their teammates about basketball stuff

I'm talking about on the bench, during warmups, coming out of the locker room - the non-basketball stuff. Completely different personalities than Al and Jax who were always talking and joking around

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - but just making an observation - the Pacers have a really different personality as a team. Maybe a more serious approach was needed

I'm not too concerned about team chemistry off the court. If it becomes a problem we can always get Scot Pollard back :)

Seriously, I think the Spurs are an example of a team without a lot of "personality" but they are/were the life of the party on the court. This Pacer team seems to be meshing pretty well on the court right now.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:30 AM
OK, I might catch some flak for this. But I want to say it.

I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl - but I also know the game is 11 days away - but I have a problem with the media coverage from channel 13, 8 and 6.

Channel 8 - showed 3 plays from the game. No interviews

Channel 13 showed more highlights - I'm guessing maybe 7 or 8 plays and short comments from Shaq

Channel 6 showed probably 4 or 5 plays and the same Shaq comments and a short clip of DG's comments on FSN right after the game.

Yes I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl, but the pacers made a major trade last week, the world champs were in town, Wade played, Shaq returned tonight, it was a great game - a great win and a great comeback.

I just expect more coverage than that. I'm used to it - but I don't like it

Evan_The_Dude
01-25-2007, 12:37 AM
This is the perfect set of guys for Travis Best to be a starting point guard with....

Ok, maybe not...

But we do need a guy that's better defensively than Tinsley, and can hit the outside shot now and then. Tinsley only looked good in overtime tonight. Before that I was damn near calling for his head (something I'm not prone to doing). If he can just be a game manager and do the basic stuff to get us going without shooting the ball, then he can work for this team.

But overall, I don't think he's the right guy for this team anymore. We need a more energetic point guard as our full-time starter. Armstrong would be perfect if he wasn't 38. But I can't think of a point guard out there that creates energy besides Jason Kidd, Darrell Armstrong and Steve Nash. I don't want Kidd and we won't get Nash. Any names anybody? Damn I'm tired and what I'm typing doesnt even seem like it's coming together. I'm going to bed...

Shack80
01-25-2007, 12:41 AM
OK, I might catch some flak for this. But I want to say it.

I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl - but I also know the game is 11 days away - but I have a problem with the media coverage from channel 13, 8 and 6.

Channel 8 - showed 3 plays from the game. No interviews

Channel 13 showed more highlights - I'm guessing maybe 7 or 8 plays and short comments from Shaq

Channel 6 showed probably 4 or 5 plays and the same Shaq comments and a short clip of DG's comments on FSN right after the game.

Yes I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl, but the pacers made a major trade last week, the world champs were in town, Wade played, Shaq returned tonight, it was a great game - a great win and a great comeback.

I just expect more coverage than that. I'm used to it - but I don't like it

Don't get your panties in a twist, IT IS THE MUTH****** Superbowl! It is an Indiana team in the biggest show on earth. The same thing will happen when the Pacers get back there. Don't b epouty about it, it is what it is. Pacers fans are going to jump back on board with this team.. they are starting to look good again, and they look to have a nice upside. I am excited, but right now the Colts are my focus, It is the Mutha******* superbowl.

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 12:41 AM
Someone explain to me the sudden want to rid this team of David Harrison. He is our one true 7 footer. He weighs 280 pounds, and he is strong. With guys like Eddy Curry, Dwight Howard, and Andrew Bynum (I know he is in the West) coming on, it might be a good idea to continue to try to develop Harrison. Not to mention Shaq might be around in the eastern playoffs another few years.

I know he fouls like a mad man, but what if that could be overcome. Eddy Curry took awhile to overcome that right?

Yes Ike gives us a scoring presence in the post, but guys like Bynum, Curry, and Shaq will always abuse that poor kid.


right?

PacerMan
01-25-2007, 12:44 AM
While I agree that Murphy is the better fit, I don't think you can give up Foster unless you're packaging him with Tinsley for a better PG. We FINALLY have a solid front court again, let's not be quick to dismantle it in any way. This front line

Granger/Williams
O'Neal/Diogu
Murphy/Foster

Is a very good one to have. I enjoy all of those players and they all bring something to the table (least of all Williams, but he's a rookie). I'm not hot to break that up at all.

Harrison should be back soon. Rick has said he's very much in the plans. Be interesting to see how it all plays out.

PacerMan
01-25-2007, 12:47 AM
Troy played well tonight and I've liked Dunleavy and Ike so far...But all that is just gravy on top of what we really got in this deal: Danny Granger and Marquis Daniels. These guys are good.

Just by Danny's demeanor you can tell he really relishes knowing that he's not coming out for the next 8 minutes unless he picks up a bunch of fouls. It's doing wonders for his confidence already and he really seems to enjoy his new role. I've never seen him put up so many shots without hesitation. It's a great sight to see.

And I have to say that I was probably wrong about Marquis. He hadn't done much to impress me until the other night. But he's doing great with his extended burn too. He gets to the lane better than any non-PG we've had since...since...well, since I started watching these guys in '92.

I'm liking the changes.

Me too. :)

Danny just looks SO confident now. He knows he's the 2nd option and he's blooming before our eyes. Now if we can just get him to put the ball on the floor and get in the paint more often he'll be a handful.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:50 AM
Someone explain to me the sudden want to rid this team of David Harrison. He is our one true 7 footer. He weighs 280 pounds, and he is strong. With guys like Eddy Curry, Dwight Howard, and Andrew Bynum (I know he is in the West) coming on, it might be a good idea to continue to try to develop Harrison. Not to mention Shaq might be around in the eastern playoffs another few years.

I know he fouls like a mad man, but what if that could be overcome. Eddy Curry took awhile to overcome that right?

Yes Ike gives us a scoring presence in the post, but guys like Bynum, Curry, and Shaq will always abuse that poor kid.


right?


Maybe someone else should respond.

I'll make this short and sweet. 2 quick points.

1) when things don't go his way he loses all control and must be taken out of the game. I've been scared a few times seeing him lose all composure - scared for the refs. Maybe Seth can tell you the story

2) I don't recall a Pacers player in the last 25 years who is as clueless as to what he is supposed to be doing on the court - mainly defensively - but also offensively.

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 12:53 AM
Maybe someone else should respond.

I'll make this short and sweet. 2 quick points.

1) when things don't go his way he loses all control and must be taken out of the game. I've been scared a few times seeing him lose all composure - scared for the refs. Maybe Seth can tell you the story

2) I don't recall a Pacers player in the last 25 years who is as clueless as to what he is supposed to be doing on the court - mainly defensively - but also offensively.

Yeah I'd love to hear the story from #1, and I can't disagree with #2.
But the guy is costing us next to nothing... under a million this year right? I don't know which way I stand on this, but I'm kind of thinking it might be worth taking on some "risk" to develop a guy with his frame.
What other response would we have for a Curry and Shaq? Our centers are power forwards basically.. you know what I mean?

joeyd
01-25-2007, 12:57 AM
OK, I might catch some flak for this. But I want to say it.

I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl - but I also know the game is 11 days away - but I have a problem with the media coverage from channel 13, 8 and 6.

Channel 8 - showed 3 plays from the game. No interviews

Channel 13 showed more highlights - I'm guessing maybe 7 or 8 plays and short comments from Shaq

Channel 6 showed probably 4 or 5 plays and the same Shaq comments and a short clip of DG's comments on FSN right after the game.

Yes I know the Colts are in the Super Bowl, but the pacers made a major trade last week, the world champs were in town, Wade played, Shaq returned tonight, it was a great game - a great win and a great comeback.

I just expect more coverage than that. I'm used to it - but I don't like it

I have to agree. A twenty point comeback win against the world champs is quite a story on an otherwise slow sports day.

Also wanted to comment on the game, which was my first chance to see the new guys. Have to admit I am quite impressed, but if my memory serves me correctly, it was DA and our old regulars that mounted the comeback effort. It started with 3 straight 3-pointers, one from DA and two from Granger. Don't recall seeing much of the Golden Staters in the fourth quarter, although they were instrumental in OT.

DA reminds me of Anthony Johnson. A sparkplug. This guy is old but has a young heart. He is always grinning and loves the game. When I saw him guarding Wade, I thought to myself, here we have a million dollars a year guarding a zillion dollars a year. Should be a major mismatch, right? Well, he did well. Granger had a hand in Wade's face and the man still made a trey, so he's pretty much unstoppable with anyone on him. Anyway, it's great to see DA pump up the fans and get pumped up by them. He is the energy this team needs.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 01:01 AM
To start the 4th quarter the lineup was:

Foster, Ike, Granger, Daniels, and Armstrong.

It stayed that way until about the 6 minute mark when JO replaced Ike. And no other changes were made in the lineup until (I'm pretty sure) the last offensive play when Murph replaced Jeff and Dun replaced Daniels

Isaac
01-25-2007, 01:03 AM
Cobol Sam, the thing is that we really have tried to develop David. I know the amount of minutes he's played in the last few years don't show it, but that's David's fault and not ours. His IQ on the floor is terrible, his footwork in the post is pathetic, and he can't really defend.

Shack80
01-25-2007, 01:05 AM
Oh come on isaac harrison can produce Fouls at an epic rate.

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 01:09 AM
okay okay, trade him i surrender =)

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2007, 01:10 AM
Just how much does Armstrong mean to this team?
Yes, but let's also keep in mind that he blew the final regulation possession and almost cost the Pacers the game. You have to take the good with the bad. He was an improvement defending Wade (when switched from Payton) over Granger, that's for sure.

I can't help but think that if Jackson shot like DunDun that people would be ripping the crap out of him, so let's also keep that in mind.


But what I like about DunDun and Murph is their fundamentals, the passing, the spacing, their understanding of how ball movement and spacing work together to create better looks. That's something that has been sorely lacking from the team for years, maybe since 2000.

For example, Murph drifts out to space for JO as he works the post. Heat double down so JO is forced to kick out to Murphy. As soon as the ball gets to him he sends it right back into JO, catching the doubler on his way back out and allowing JO to go right back at them in that brief open space.


I'm concerned about the defense still, and you have to wonder a little about Dunleavy's shot. I'm also not sure how to take the results with Tins vs DA. Tins and Foster for Miller? More games like this one and that will seem like a realistic idea (but then you have to worry about Murph's health).

I started the Daniels is like McKey thread a long time ago, praising his intangibles, and have said all along that he is a crafty ball handler with a knack for getting close looks that he can finish (he scores it hella better than Big Heavy ever did). I like him attacking the rim so much more than spotting up. That's a major improvement. He's not a great SG defender, but he's okay.

Hate Granger defending the SG as I said in the game thread. That's typically a disaster. But at SF he's coming along. Offensively he's almost there. He's only lacking the consistancy of a true #2 scoring threat, but the tools are there and I feel very confident with him taking shots.

I think I'd rather see Dun at the SG than Danny.

JO struggled vs Zo, but honestly Zo is playing very well this year. If I were a Heat fan I wouldn't want Shaq back, I'd want him traded in a 1 for 3 and let Zo be the main center.

Murph is like a shooting Foster which kills his PT, but I still think Foster brings a ton of energy and needs to get on the court as much as possible too. I like seeing JO, Murph, Ike, and Foster all getting some PT. Baston looks to be the odd man out here.



Let's keep in mind that they are supposed to be winning games during this nice stretch of mostly home games. Even the pre-trade team was beating teams in Indy, teams like Detroit, Cleveland and Orlando (hadn't faced CHI yet in Conseco at that point).

It's going to be tough to separate the favorable schedule from the team adjustment, and for all the enjoyability of the playing style this team was down by 20 and required a furious comeback to save a home win against a sub-500 team.

Get these wins like you were supposed to be doing pre-trade, get into the thick of the hunt, and we'll see how it goes from there. I'm not more hopeful than I was before the trade because I was still pretty solid back then even despite some of the annoying/troubling losses. 45-48 wins has always seemed a reasonable target to me. Hasn't changed.

Shack80
01-25-2007, 01:15 AM
Good points Seth.

Hicks
01-25-2007, 01:26 AM
Seth, the reason people won't get on Dunleavy as they would Jackson for that kind of (lack of) shooting is because Dunleavy doesn't force up bad shots, and he does many other things (that you mentioned right after your comment) regardless of how he's shooting.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2007, 01:28 AM
Yeah I'd love to hear the story from #1, and I can't disagree with #2.
But the guy is costing us next to nothing... under a million this year right? I don't know which way I stand on this, but I'm kind of thinking it might be worth taking on some "risk" to develop a guy with his frame.
What other response would we have for a Curry and Shaq? Our centers are power forwards basically.. you know what I mean?
I've told it before (which is why Buck said that), so many people will want to skip this.

My 2 Star forum buddies and I went to the Denver game last year and sat baseline 2nd row, right of the goal on the Pacers end (right of the goal on the other end is press anyway).

There was a play where David had contact trying to defend a Melo shot. He got hit in the face and fell to the floor but was called for the foul himself despite getting a bloody nose from it. David has already had a couple of tough calls and didn't take too kindly to not getting something for the pop to the nose.

So there we are literally 15 feet from the guy max and as he turns to get up you can see in his eyes that he is hulking out. All 3 of us starting yellling "NO NO NO" because you could see he was PO'd and going to do something about it.

As he got up he had a look of fury that honestly scared me to be that close to him. He looked like he could rampage on us at any second, and I sincerely feared that he was going to punch the ref and damn near kill him. This wasn't Sheed going off, this was drunk, insane guy getting ready to start a bar brawl kind of response.

He did go off, the teammates all grabbed at him, he got the T immediately as he stepped to the ref (again we thought this was the punch coming) and he didn't slow down his anger. He wasn't even ranting, he was just fuming and boiling over, almost too angry for words even (though he had some choices ones of those too, plenty of threats).

After the T they couldn't get him off the floor. Rick clearly wanted him way outta there because he had lost it and it was only going to get worse, but there was no containing him. He paced near the bench (but on the floor) with guys trying to talk him down. We thought the 2nd was obviously going to come but it didn't.

Finally they got him onto the bench and he was done for the night, all because of his temper over a non-call that didn't appear all that wrong to me.

Funny thing is that I watched the Tivo verison and none of this was shown by the director. At the point he was jumping up and going at the ref like he was going to hit him, they were showing some close-up or something. They mentioned the T of course, and finally when he's almost to the bench they cut to him, but the impact of just how bad his temper gets was lost on the home viewers there.

A close up of his reaction at that moment would have told everyone else just why his temper is such a serious problem and why it gets him yanked from games. It certainly did that night. It was ridiculous and extreme.



Ike is David but without those issues and with a lot less dumb fouls too. I have always been impressed with David's offensive game, but I just can't believe in his self-control or maturity at this point. It might get there, but I don't think its just a year or two away. He could be 32 and still reacting like this.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-25-2007, 01:36 AM
Dwayne Wade post game:

(Is it tough to give up lead so quickly?) "Yep. It got away quick. I donít know what happened. They were ready to give up, but they put a team in there who didnít want to get embarrassed. They started to make some stops and make some shots, next thing you know itís a ball game. This is tough to take. Not because we had them down 20, but just because we needed this win. Out of all of our losses this year, this is the toughest one of all."

Always nice to see the reigning Finals MVP say that.

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2007, 01:37 AM
Seth, the reason people won't get on Dunleavy as they would Jackson for that kind of (lack of) shooting is because Dunleavy doesn't force up bad shots, and he does many other things (that you mentioned right after your comment) regardless of how he's shooting.
True....sorta.

I've heard many open Jack shots considered "forced" simply because fans had no faith in him to make them, even if he did so on 36% of the nights. :)

In fact I thought tonight's shooting effort from Dunleavy, the kind and amount of shots he was taking when out there, were eerily similar to Jack's.

I also consider Jack to still be the better defender, especially if we are talking about the SG spot (he's always done fairly well with Wade). But I do like the overall smarter play from DunDun quite a bit.

I didn't really rip Jack just for missing an open jumper, even from deep, so I'm not ripping Dun for it either. My problem isn't with Dunleavy at all. His game is at least equal to Jackson's, though slightly different.

My problem is that fans will see this drastic difference on the court that really isn't there. It had so much more to do with the image of him they brought to each viewing, much like Dr. Goldfoot mentioned earlier tonight (in regards to Saras IIRC).


Now of course if DunDun drops 40% of 3's and averages 6 apg over the next month, then I will join them in seeing a massive improvement. Until then I'm not going to pretend the blue VW Beetle is somehow faster than the red one was. Same car, different paint to me.

I think what Murph does on the court vs what Al brought is a MUCH bigger improvement and far more complimentary to the roster than Al's game was.

Dunleavy was sitting for most of the 4th for a reason after all.



But because of their willingness to play smart fundamentals ball, I think we will see more of a Rick plan of attack in action than we have the last few years and that this will be an improvement (if they can figure out the defensive end).

Hicks
01-25-2007, 01:38 AM
Another important thing: We out-rebounded another team!

http://www.nba.com/games/20070124/MIAIND/boxscore.html

Pacers: 52 rebounds, 14 were offensive rebounds

Heat: 43 rebounds, 8 were offensive rebounds

:happydanc

Naptown_Seth
01-25-2007, 01:53 AM
Something else i've been thinking about the whole reason we got al in or were able to obtain al in the first place was cause New Orleans Hornets owner did a favor for Donnie and we were also keeping Al from going to Golden State...wonder how that guy feels now?
Shinn will still get his favorable vote to stay in OKC which is why he did it (IMO). Of course with all the love around the Saints it might be that Shinn changes his mind and tries to get back into NO.

If the NBA took the team away from him and rode him out of town on a rail it would be too good for George Shinn. Go Google some of his charming history to see what I mean. He's a high quality a-hole which is why the Hornets were run out of CHA (had nothing to do with no supporting the team, the fans didn't want him in town anymore).

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 01:56 AM
I've told it before (which is why Buck said that), so many people will want to skip this.

My 2 Star forum buddies and I went to the Denver game last year and sat baseline 2nd row, right of the goal on the Pacers end (right of the goal on the other end is press anyway).

There was a play where David had contact trying to defend a Melo shot. He got hit in the face and fell to the floor but was called for the foul himself despite getting a bloody nose from it. David has already had a couple of tough calls and didn't take too kindly to not getting something for the pop to the nose.

So there we are literally 15 feet from the guy max and as he turns to get up you can see in his eyes that he is hulking out. All 3 of us starting yellling "NO NO NO" because you could see he was PO'd and going to do something about it.

As he got up he had a look of fury that honestly scared me to be that close to him. He looked like he could rampage on us at any second, and I sincerely feared that he was going to punch the ref and damn near kill him. This wasn't Sheed going off, this was drunk, insane guy getting ready to start a bar brawl kind of response.

He did go off, the teammates all grabbed at him, he got the T immediately as he stepped to the ref (again we thought this was the punch coming) and he didn't slow down his anger. He wasn't even ranting, he was just fuming and boiling over, almost too angry for words even (though he had some choices ones of those too, plenty of threats).

After the T they couldn't get him off the floor. Rick clearly wanted him way outta there because he had lost it and it was only going to get worse, but there was no containing him. He paced near the bench (but on the floor) with guys trying to talk him down. We thought the 2nd was obviously going to come but it didn't.

Finally they got him onto the bench and he was done for the night, all because of his temper over a non-call that didn't appear all that wrong to me.

Funny thing is that I watched the Tivo verison and none of this was shown by the director. At the point he was jumping up and going at the ref like he was going to hit him, they were showing some close-up or something. They mentioned the T of course, and finally when he's almost to the bench they cut to him, but the impact of just how bad his temper gets was lost on the home viewers there.

A close up of his reaction at that moment would have told everyone else just why his temper is such a serious problem and why it gets him yanked from games. It certainly did that night. It was ridiculous and extreme.



Ike is David but without those issues and with a lot less dumb fouls too. I have always been impressed with David's offensive game, but I just can't believe in his self-control or maturity at this point. It might get there, but I don't think its just a year or two away. He could be 32 and still reacting like this.

Thanks for the story. When he was playing in the Big 12, the crowd here at ISU would chant stuff at him, and I always suspected it affected his game. Maybe I was right.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:08 AM
But overall, I don't think he's the right guy for this team anymore. We need a more energetic point guard as our full-time starter. Armstrong would be perfect if he wasn't 38. But I can't think of a point guard out there that creates energy besides Jason Kidd, Darrell Armstrong and Steve Nash. I don't want Kidd and we won't get Nash. Any names anybody?
I doubt that he is available...or more specifically...we have nobody that the Hawks would want....( I know that will probably get many :hmm: and :laugh: responses )......but what about Tyronne Lue?

I know its a stretch....but he's super quick.....has lots of energy....can run the point.....can hit the 3pt shot. I don't know about his defense though.

imawhat
01-25-2007, 03:11 AM
But I certainly see why Ike, Dun and Murph didn't fit in Nellie's system - none of them are good runners.


They didn't run tonight, but Dunleavy is a great runner, and Murphy is capable of running.


I'm dumbfounded as to why MDJ didn't fit in Nellie's plans.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:18 AM
I've told it before (which is why Buck said that), so many people will want to skip this.

My 2 Star forum buddies and I went to the Denver game last year and sat baseline 2nd row, right of the goal on the Pacers end (right of the goal on the other end is press anyway).

There was a play where David had contact trying to defend a Melo shot. He got hit in the face and fell to the floor but was called for the foul himself despite getting a bloody nose from it. David has already had a couple of tough calls and didn't take too kindly to not getting something for the pop to the nose.

So there we are literally 15 feet from the guy max and as he turns to get up you can see in his eyes that he is hulking out. All 3 of us starting yellling "NO NO NO" because you could see he was PO'd and going to do something about it.

As he got up he had a look of fury that honestly scared me to be that close to him. He looked like he could rampage on us at any second, and I sincerely feared that he was going to punch the ref and damn near kill him. This wasn't Sheed going off, this was drunk, insane guy getting ready to start a bar brawl kind of response.

He did go off, the teammates all grabbed at him, he got the T immediately as he stepped to the ref (again we thought this was the punch coming) and he didn't slow down his anger. He wasn't even ranting, he was just fuming and boiling over, almost too angry for words even (though he had some choices ones of those too, plenty of threats).

After the T they couldn't get him off the floor. Rick clearly wanted him way outta there because he had lost it and it was only going to get worse, but there was no containing him. He paced near the bench (but on the floor) with guys trying to talk him down. We thought the 2nd was obviously going to come but it didn't.

Finally they got him onto the bench and he was done for the night, all because of his temper over a non-call that didn't appear all that wrong to me.

I've never heard of your Hulk story....thanks....I was rolling on the floor after reading it.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:31 AM
Most of the game thread seemed to center around our new players...Granger, JONeal, DA...and a little on Tinsley's return.

How did he do?

In terms of ball movement....was there a noticeable difference when Tinsley is running the floor by himself, when DA was running the point and when MD+MD was on the floor?

One thing that I did see in the Box score was that Dunleavy...despite his rather poor shooting.....got to the FT line 6 times...and hit all 6. A 9 point game looks bad on paper....but Dunleavy recognized ( at least in this game ) what SJax was capable of doing when he couldn't get his ball to drop....he drew fouls and got to the line to make up for his lack of scoring. The problem was that although SJax was really good at doing this....he only did this once in awhile. I really hope that this is one of those basketball IQ / fundamental aspects of Dunleavy's game that really comes out.

One last question.......do you think that the Pre-Trade Pacers could have pulled out a "come from behind" win like this?

With the Pre-Trade Pacers team.....my confidence in them wasn't very high....and I wouldn't be surprised if we somehow closed the gap...but ended up doing something stupid to lose the game. But with the Post-Trade Pacers team.....the feel of the team is different.....I have some confidence that they maybe able to do the right things to somehow close the scoring gap and somehow pull out a win. Maybe they won't these games all the time....but at least I feel that they have a better chance now.

Beowulfas
01-25-2007, 05:19 AM
In 11 minutes Diogu played, he has +21 +/- :-o

Eindar
01-25-2007, 06:11 AM
In terms of Dunleavy vs. Jackson, they both bring things to the floor other than shooting. What I didn't expect was that Dunleavy rebounds at almost double the rate of Jackson, does more in terms of blocks and assists, and, statistically speaking, is a better shooter than Jackson. Jackson also averages almost a turnover more per game than Dunleavy, which means the swap alone nets you 3 extra possessions per game, 2 from rebounds, 1 from turnovers. In addition, there are several possessions that Jackson loses for your team that I'm not noticing with Dunleavy. What I'm speaking of is the times Jackson simply decides that it's his turn to shoot and hoists a 3 with a guy in his face. There's no stat for "bad shots", but Jackson would have to be in the top 10, and I really haven't seen Dunleavy take a single "bad shot" in the 2 games he's been in.

Athleticism is great to have, but I think I'd rather have basketball IQ.

McKeyFan
01-25-2007, 07:57 AM
I've never heard of your Hulk story....thanks....I was rolling on the floor after reading it.

I was truly saddened.

edc
01-25-2007, 07:59 AM
I think the difference between Dun Jr vs Steph Jack is decision making.

LoneGranger33
01-25-2007, 09:46 AM
I think the difference between Dun Jr vs Steph Jack is decision making.

One makes bad ones and the other makes slightly better ones?

sweabs
01-25-2007, 09:55 AM
I've told it before (which is why Buck said that), so many people will want to skip this.

My 2 Star forum buddies and I went to the Denver game last year and sat baseline 2nd row, right of the goal on the Pacers end (right of the goal on the other end is press anyway).

There was a play where David had contact trying to defend a Melo shot. He got hit in the face and fell to the floor but was called for the foul himself despite getting a bloody nose from it. David has already had a couple of tough calls and didn't take too kindly to not getting something for the pop to the nose.

So there we are literally 15 feet from the guy max and as he turns to get up you can see in his eyes that he is hulking out. All 3 of us starting yellling "NO NO NO" because you could see he was PO'd and going to do something about it.

As he got up he had a look of fury that honestly scared me to be that close to him. He looked like he could rampage on us at any second, and I sincerely feared that he was going to punch the ref and damn near kill him. This wasn't Sheed going off, this was drunk, insane guy getting ready to start a bar brawl kind of response.

He did go off, the teammates all grabbed at him, he got the T immediately as he stepped to the ref (again we thought this was the punch coming) and he didn't slow down his anger. He wasn't even ranting, he was just fuming and boiling over, almost too angry for words even (though he had some choices ones of those too, plenty of threats).

After the T they couldn't get him off the floor. Rick clearly wanted him way outta there because he had lost it and it was only going to get worse, but there was no containing him. He paced near the bench (but on the floor) with guys trying to talk him down. We thought the 2nd was obviously going to come but it didn't.

Finally they got him onto the bench and he was done for the night, all because of his temper over a non-call that didn't appear all that wrong to me.

Funny thing is that I watched the Tivo verison and none of this was shown by the director. At the point he was jumping up and going at the ref like he was going to hit him, they were showing some close-up or something. They mentioned the T of course, and finally when he's almost to the bench they cut to him, but the impact of just how bad his temper gets was lost on the home viewers there.

A close up of his reaction at that moment would have told everyone else just why his temper is such a serious problem and why it gets him yanked from games. It certainly did that night. It was ridiculous and extreme.
Hey, I was at that game also sitting 2nd row from baseline. You're talking about the one where Melo hit the game-winner, right? I also remember the incident you're describing right now...we must have been sitting quite close to one another.

ALF68
01-25-2007, 10:58 AM
Why are we still talking about Jack, clue to all Jack supporters, he is gone! This is our Pacer team and Jack is not on it so move on with the love affair. Are we seriously going to have to see how Jack was much better at this or that in every F#$#$g thread by a certain poster.


Anyone who can't see that this team isn't a better team, is either blind or something much worse. I feel that the Pacers have lanced their boil and are now on their way to healing. Fans will get behind this team and embrace them, unlike the team that included Jack. BTW, Tins days as a Pacer are numbered.


OH yeah, I attended my first Pacer game of the season last nite.

Putnam
01-25-2007, 11:01 AM
It was the second game I've seen at Conseco this year. My impression from the bird's-eye view ($25 seat) was of better movement overall, compared to the Detroit win I saw earlier. And by movement, I mean both better energy and better coordination.

Last night, the Pacers shot poorly and had too many turnovers. But they won because they had 52 rebounds, which enabled them to take 89 shots.

I suggest we keep an eye on the combined stats of O'Neal and Murphy. Last night, they scored 27 points and pulled down 25 rebounds. Against Chicago, they were 29 and 18. As a pair, they are going to be effective on most nights. Teams can stop either of them, but it takes a double team to stop O'Neal and that will leave Murphy open within the range where he can score. I hope they develop personal affinity, because they are good for each other.
Jermaine showed real poise last night, battling against Mourning.

As far as entertainment value, I was feeling cheated after the second quarter, but the 4th and the overtime made it right -- even though Reb Porter denied me the use of the seat I'd paid for by INSISTING there at the end that everybody HAD to get up on their feet!

Ragnar
01-25-2007, 12:37 PM
The biggest thing I was happy about last night is that Rick actually left a rebounder in for the last six minutes. I am so sick and tired of going small in the last six minutes only to lose because we get out rebounded. I cant imagine another coach doing that and I cant fathom why Rick has been doing it.

The biggest difference between this game and the last game against Miami is that Rick did not watch our bigs (Jeff) get us back into the game only to pull them and watch us lose.

odeez
01-25-2007, 12:53 PM
Why are we still talking about Jack, clue to all Jack supporters, he is gone! This is our Pacer team and Jack is not on it so move on with the love affair. Are we seriously going to have to see how Jack was much better at this or that in every F#$#$g thread by a certain poster.


Anyone who can't see that this team isn't a better team, is either blind or something much worse. I feel that the Pacers have lanced their boil and are now on their way to healing. Fans will get behind this team and embrace them, unlike the team that included Jack. BTW, Tins days as a Pacer are numbered.


OH yeah, I attended my first Pacer game of the season last nite.

Amen to that brother. I have been saying it since he left and I still keep threads about Jack and Al. Gone, gone ,gone, and gone again!

ABADays
01-25-2007, 01:33 PM
I guess I have a different idea about big men. To me, this seems like the perfect time to KEEP Harrison. He has a lot to learn, no doubt, but now it's not important if and when he is coming back. Having said that, if I were in the front office there would be a serious sit down with David. I just can't understand with all the investment this team makes they, seemingly, refuse to get a big man coach.

I don't know what to think about combining him with Tinsley in a trade. I mean, if I were another GM why would I want two apparent head cases. Of course, I thought the same thing about Jack.

bellisimo
01-25-2007, 01:58 PM
Cleveland loses !! Philadelphia 118, Cleveland 115

seems like Sir Charles will be right afterall ;)

aero
01-25-2007, 02:03 PM
Granger is really playing awesome ball right now Go Danger :D

CableKC
01-25-2007, 02:06 PM
I guess I have a different idea about big men. To me, this seems like the perfect time to KEEP Harrison. He has a lot to learn, no doubt, but now it's not important if and when he is coming back. Having said that, if I were in the front office there would be a serious sit down with David. I just can't understand with all the investment this team makes they, seemingly, refuse to get a big man coach.

I don't know what to think about combining him with Tinsley in a trade. I mean, if I were another GM why would I want two apparent head cases. Of course, I thought the same thing about Jack.

I would suspect that given our existing lineup of Big Men......unless we were to package Foster with Tinsley to get a definite upgrade at the PG spot.....there is only going to be enough minutes to play either Diogu or Harrison.

I like what Harrison can bring....but given what it took to get Diogu...I would much rather invest what little backup development minutes that we have for a 4th Big Man to Diogu. I don't mind if we keep him as a 5th/6th Big Man....cuz admittedly both have alot to learn ( defense, keeping out of foul trouble and simply playing smarter ) and both will likely make mistakes.....but if some team wanted Harrison and we get back something that we can use in the future ( 2nd round draft pick, $$$ or players )...I won't mind giving him up.

I agree that he has potential....but if we had to put our proverbial "eggs" in one basket....I would give the minutes to Diogu.

gummy
01-25-2007, 03:19 PM
Why are we still talking about Jack, clue to all Jack supporters, he is gone! This is our Pacer team and Jack is not on it so move on with the love affair. Are we seriously going to have to see how Jack was much better at this or that in every F#$#$g thread by a certain poster.

Well, yes. We are seriously going to see comparisons between the guys we traded and the guys we have now. I think it is pretty natural for people to do this since they were traded for one another. It's part of the process of evaluating the trade and I would expect it to die down significantly in a month or so.

I'm kind of puzzled about why this would be so upsetting, but then again I neither loved nor hated Jack so maybe that's why I don't get it. :whoknows:

Speed
01-25-2007, 03:28 PM
I meant to mention this and maybe it's in a thread but Boyle had a great line last night. It was roughly this....



"Armstrong guarding Payton combined age of 75 years old"

:)

maragin
01-25-2007, 03:49 PM
Why are we still talking about Jack, clue to all Jack supporters, he is gone!

Well, because he's a former Pacer. By your logic, we should admonish someone who says "I wish we had Reggie" as much as someone who said "I liked Jack's game".

This is a Pacers forum, and I would expect people to talk about the team's past, present and future. I'm pretty sure Jack supporters know he's gone, and appreciate your kind reminder.

ALF68
01-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Well, because he's a former Pacer. By your logic, we should admonish someone who says "I wish we had Reggie" as much as someone who said "I liked Jack's game".

This is a Pacers forum, and I would expect people to talk about the team's past, present and future. I'm pretty sure Jack supporters know he's gone, and appreciate your kind reminder.

You putting Reggie and Jack in the same sentence is just plain crazy. OH, didn't Reggie retire? Big diffence there pal. My logic is fine, thank you.

ALF68
01-25-2007, 04:02 PM
Well, yes. We are seriously going to see comparisons between the guys we traded and the guys we have now. I think it is pretty natural for people to do this since they were traded for one another. It's part of the process of evaluating the trade and I would expect it to die down significantly in a month or so.

I'm kind of puzzled about why this would be so upsetting, but then again I neither loved nor hated Jack so maybe that's why I don't get it. :whoknows:

Comparisons are ok, but the sour grapes attitude taken by a few posters here, are annoying at best and sickening at worst. Look, these guys are not interested in making honest comparisions, they just want to degrade the Pacers for trading away their favorite player.

bnd45
01-25-2007, 04:02 PM
I just finished venting in the GSW thread about the same thing. These guys are ex-Pacers for a reason. I have 3 favorite teams: The Pacers, and whoever is playing the Warriors and Kings.

The only exception is the Mavs. I do still pull for Croshere. (Dale Davis would be here to but he plays for a rival.)

maragin
01-25-2007, 05:08 PM
You putting Reggie and Jack in the same sentence is just plain crazy. OH, didn't Reggie retire? Big diffence there pal. My logic is fine, thank you.

Apparently we disagree, which is fine. I think anyone on this list (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/view.php?pg=history) is fair game, including:

The Millers (Ron, Brad, Dick, Jay and Reggie
The Jacksons (Mark, Stephen, Tracy and Ralph)
The Johnsons (Britton, Anthony, Clemon, Eddie, George, Gus and Mickey)
The Williams' (Herb, John, Kenny, Michael, Reggie and Shawne)

Guys like Peja, Artest, Primoz, Fred/ James Jones, Harrington, Dale Davis and others are of interest to people on this board, even in you don't care about former Pacers. Hell, Brad Miller is part of this team's past and future, if you believe the interviews he gives.

Retired and traded players are both part of Pacers basketball. I'd even consider Ann Meyers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Meyers) and interesting part of our rich history. If you want to limit your discussions to "current roster players only", that's fine, but I will continue to view the Pacers as a franchise.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 05:17 PM
I just watched the 4th quarter again and I didn't give Daniels enough credit - he was outstanding in the 4th quarter. I failed to mention and realize how many times he got into the lane and made really nice passes to Granger, Ike and all of his teammates-

Marquis was very much a key player in the win last night

maragin
01-25-2007, 05:21 PM
Marquis was very much a key player in the win last night

Markeys? :D

ALF68
01-25-2007, 05:33 PM
Apparently we disagree, which is fine. I think anyone on this list (http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/view.php?pg=history) is fair game, including:

The Millers (Ron, Brad, Dick, Jay and Reggie
The Jacksons (Mark, Stephen, Tracy and Ralph)
The Johnsons (Britton, Anthony, Clemon, Eddie, George, Gus and Mickey)
The Williams' (Herb, John, Kenny, Michael, Reggie and Shawne)

Guys like Peja, Artest, Primoz, Fred/ James Jones, Harrington, Dale Davis and others are of interest to people on this board, even in you don't care about former Pacers. Hell, Brad Miller is part of this team's past and future, if you believe the interviews he gives.

Retired and traded players are both part of Pacers basketball. I'd even consider Ann Meyers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Meyers) and interesting part of our rich history. If you want to limit your discussions to "current roster players only", that's fine, but I will continue to view the Pacers as a franchise.





even in you don't care about former Pacers.

Former players are just that former, I think there is a huge difference in caring about former Pacers and fawning over them and following their every move.

Hicks
01-25-2007, 05:34 PM
It's only been a week since the trade went down. You act as if it's been a year. Patience.

spazzxb
01-25-2007, 05:38 PM
Why are we still talking about Jack, clue to all Jack supporters, he is gone! This is our Pacer team and Jack is not on it so move on with the love affair. Are we seriously going to have to see how Jack was much better at this or that in every F#$#$g thread by a certain poster.


Anyone who can't see that this team isn't a better team, is either blind or something much worse. I feel that the Pacers have lanced their boil and are now on their way to healing. Fans will get behind this team and embrace them, unlike the team that included Jack. BTW, Tins days as a Pacer are numbered.


OH yeah, I attended my first Pacer game of the season last nite.

If you want to give your opinion on Jack go to the golden state board. You seem to be picking a fight to me. And don't pretend if tinsley is gone you won't find someone else to complain about. People are already preparing Harrison to be the scapegoat of the future around here( and he hasn't even really played this year).

ALF68
01-25-2007, 05:43 PM
If you want to give your opinion on Jack go to the golden state board. You seem to be picking a fight to me. And don't pretend if tinsley is gone you won't find someone else to complain about. People are already preparing Harrison to be the scapegoat of the future around here( and he hasn't even really played this year).


Now why in the hell would I want to go to the GS board? The comments that I find curious were made right here on this board. I have every right to state my opinion and if you don't agree with it, ignore it. I am not the one fawning over Jack and Al and Sars, so go after these so called Pacer fans and leave the true Pacer fans alone.

Anthem
01-25-2007, 07:28 PM
Now why in the hell would I want to go to the GS board? The comments that I find curious were made right here on this board. I have every right to state my opinion and if you don't agree with it, ignore it. I am not the one fawning over Jack and Al and Sars, so go after these so called Pacer fans and leave the true Pacer fans alone.
Are we reading the same threads? Just about everyone I see is happy to see them go. I certainly don't miss them.

abjry and a couple other guys defend them from some of the over-the-top comments, but that's appropriate. There's certainly nobody "fawning" over them.

imawhat
01-25-2007, 07:39 PM
Are we reading the same threads? Just about everyone I see is happy to see them go. I certainly don't miss them.

abjry and a couple other guys defend them from some of the over-the-top comments, but that's appropriate. There's certainly nobody "fawning" over them.


Read poster's previous posts. You'll see the agenda.

speakout4
01-25-2007, 08:20 PM
Yes, but let's also keep in mind that he blew the final regulation possession and almost cost the Pacers the game. You have to take the good with the bad. He was an improvement defending Wade (when switched from Payton) over Granger, that's for sure.
Let's keep in mind that that without DA there would not be a 20 point comeback. The good with the bad? The 38 year old has been nearly had a triple double several nights ago. How many point gurads come close to that? With him on the floor anythhing is possible. If Darrell were several years younger he would be the starting PG.

Anthem
01-25-2007, 08:24 PM
But the fact remains that he's 38.

And I don't see a replacement around.

ALF68
01-25-2007, 09:33 PM
Read poster's previous posts. You'll see the agenda.

And what agenda would that be? Look, all that I have done is point out that there are a couple of posters that won't let go of their affinity for Jack, and continue to fawn over him. I pointed out that Jack is gone, and they should get over it. I could care less what you think, so don't bother throwing stones in my direction.

Anthem
01-25-2007, 10:28 PM
And what agenda would that be? Look, all that I have done is point out that there are a couple of posters that won't let go of their affinity for Jack, and continue to fawn over him. I pointed out that Jack is gone, and they should get over it. I could care less what you think, so don't bother throwing stones in my direction.
That's pretty fair.

Return the favor, and all will be well.

MagicRat
01-25-2007, 10:43 PM
Never.....Let.....Go.........

Anthem
01-25-2007, 10:48 PM
Never.....Let.....Go.........
That too.

I was thinking

:haterade:

Hicks
01-25-2007, 11:08 PM
Never.....Let.....Go.........

www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller.html (http://www.pacersdigest.com/bradmiller/)

Of course. :D

brichard
01-25-2007, 11:43 PM
I am going to go in the camp that says that Murphy has made Foster expendable. We have lots of guys that can play in the post, and only one without a hint of offense. I like Foster and I agree he made some great hustle plays tonight. I'm also not saying we should cut him, and if we did, we would have to get something of value.

If we are going to continue looking at trades, we will have to give up something of value to get something of value. Foster would be a nice fit on many teams b/c he is not a selfish player and is a great rebounder. And for a team that needs those qualities, he may get us a good prospect in return.

I'm still not at all comfortable with our point guard situation. Darrell just isn't going to be around much more, Tinsley issues have been debated before, and the jury is still out on Marquis. Marquis looked great last night, but he is still a bit of an unknown quantity. Anyway, I'd still love for us to find a PG or a SG with some range.

Sure, we can trade guys like DH, but I'm just not sure we would get much for them.

Anyway, I'm just so much more enthused about watching this team again. Thus far I love the trade and I just hope the energy continues.

LosAngeles
01-26-2007, 12:45 AM
It will be interesting to track prevailing attitudes regarding this trade. After one day, there was a fairly even split. After one week folks are liking it.

In one month? Two? One year? Three years?

Whatever happens, it seems like a safe bet to say that this trade coupled with whatever comes next could have far-reaching implications both with the club and with how fans feel about the club.

Unclebuck
01-26-2007, 09:56 AM
Trading Foster: the Pacers better be very careful. Right now the team is low on energy guys (Rick thinks so too) we have Armstrong and Foster and if we trade Foster we better be getting a legitimate starting point guard.

CableKC
01-26-2007, 11:05 AM
Trading Foster: the Pacers better be very careful. Right now the team is low on energy guys (Rick thinks so too) we have Armstrong and Foster and if we trade Foster we better be getting a legitimate starting point guard.
Given the liklihood that a team won't be giving up a legit starting PG while taking back Tinsley.....I doubt that any such deal could be made....UNLESS.....TPTB were so desperate to get rid of SJax that they would simply make a lateral move at the PG spot and was forced to give up Foster.

imawhat
01-26-2007, 04:18 PM
Trading Foster: the Pacers better be very careful. Right now the team is low on energy guys (Rick thinks so too) we have Armstrong and Foster and if we trade Foster we better be getting a legitimate starting point guard.


I don't think a starting PG would be worth Foster anyways. He's too valuable right now.

quiller
01-26-2007, 11:32 PM
Let's keep in mind that that without DA there would not be a 20 point comeback. The good with the bad? The 38 year old has been nearly had a triple double several nights ago. How many point gurads come close to that? With him on the floor anythhing is possible. If Darrell were several years younger he would be the starting PG.

Hmm actually Tin's has come very close a number of times to getting a triple double this season. Still I agree with the point... you take the good with the bad and DA has been invaluable to the Pacers this year and in this game. I just wish people would give the same "pass" or "ignore" on poor shooting over a short period of time to all the pacers as well...

brichard
01-27-2007, 12:46 AM
Trading Foster: the Pacers better be very careful. Right now the team is low on energy guys (Rick thinks so too) we have Armstrong and Foster and if we trade Foster we better be getting a legitimate starting point guard.


You know, I would be fine keeping Foster forever if he could just come up with something resembling an offensive game. If he isn't stuffing it, I'm nervous no matter what part of the floor he is shooting it from. I also think he passes up good offensive opportunites b/c he is so afraid to shoot.

A Foster/Tins package is actually the one I would think would be intriguing. Tinsley has a great handle and seems to be healthy. Many think he would flourish in a more open court setting. Foster gives you the defense and rebounding without the need for the ball. He may take the edge off the trade with Tinsley. If Tins gets hurt, at least the other team nets a solid big out of it.

imawhat
01-27-2007, 04:29 PM
Whatever happens, it seems like a safe bet to say that this trade coupled with whatever comes next could have far-reaching implications both with the club and with how fans feel about the club.




I'm slightly afraid that the trade happened too late, and that some permanent damage has been done (judging by the attendance numbers post-trade). I think the team has lost its fans.

It was encouraging to see the attendance numbers up this week, but still, 14,000 is NOT a good attendance number considering we were playing the Miami Heat.

BlueNGold
01-27-2007, 11:18 PM
I'm slightly afraid that the trade happened too late, and that some permanent damage has been done (judging by the attendance numbers post-trade). I think the team has lost its fans.

It was encouraging to see the attendance numbers up this week, but still, 14,000 is NOT a good attendance number considering we were playing the Miami Heat.

There has been damage to the franchise, although not permanent. We have lost some fans because of poor play and poor PR.

First, it's just not as enjoyable to watch a bad team lose.....or win for that matter. We have not been bad persay, but we are not viewed as a legit contender anymore...although the east is so weak, I guess we really qualify.

Second, more than a few people don't want to be associated with the franchise now. Some of these people are in business and do not want to take their clients to see those clowns. It's just an embarrassment.

Now, some of the damage will begin healing since we shipped a few guys out. So, no it's not permanent....but it will take time to get back to filling the fieldhouse.

Anthem
01-27-2007, 11:22 PM
We keep playing like this, and attendance will be all the way back by the time the Colts win the Super Bowl.

!Pacers-Fan!
01-28-2007, 12:03 AM
Murphy Grabbed Alot of Rebounds and Granger Was Shooting Lights out in the 3-4 Quaters...Im Very Impressed...