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edc
01-24-2007, 10:20 AM
Watching the game against the Bulls-----------> Im in love with Dun Jr. Skills. Its only one game but the way he pass the ball and move without the ball. Im in Love.

The pass he made at the baseline to Murphy was intelligent.

If the Dun Jr. is in the floor we now have another "point guard" who can bring the ball.

I do think we now have a balance team than before(Steph Jack/Al Har)

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 11:32 AM
Agreed.

I enjoyed his post game interview on the Pacers radio network with Kevin Lee. Sure you expect him to say all the right things, but I really, really think he is excited as anything to be here. One thing I liked to hear is that he loves the coaching staff and he also said Rick coaches basketball like he's used to. Not sure if that means like coach K or like his dad or what

Because Jr's dad played in the NBA and has been a coach forever - not only does he have the genes to be a smart player, but he grew up around NBA basketball. I remember seeing him hanging around the team bench in Portland and I think in Milwaukee. He had to pick up on things what to do and not to do.

And playing for coach K has to help a player. I know many of you hate Duke, but playing at Duke I believe teaches a player to play the right way

odeez
01-24-2007, 11:44 AM
Dun Dun is a keeper. His energy is great, he is smart, and he is helping us spread the floor. He takes smart shots. He doesn't jack up a shot whenever he wants and plays within the team.

Big UPS to Dun

FlavaDave
01-24-2007, 12:07 PM
As with any trade, I'm reserving judgement untill we see what he can do over 10-15 games. I like what I see (especially the rebounding), but his defensive skills are pretty low.

So, we'll see. But I'm intrigued.

sig
01-24-2007, 12:17 PM
My hope is that this trade will work out like the Detlef trade did. I don't know if Dun Jr. can be as good as Detlef but he has offensive skills and has about the same amount of accomplishes as Detlef did when he arrived from Dallas.

Roferr
01-24-2007, 12:18 PM
I think MD is a great addition to the team. He seems to be rejuvenated with the Pacers. The Warrior fans expected entirely too much from him because he was a #3 pick. He couldn't live up to the hype to be mounted on that pedestal they had erected for him.

He can play every position except the 5. He handles the ball great for a 6'9" player. He moves well without the ball and is always looking for the open man. He reminds me of Billy Cunningham in the way that he attacks the game. Of course, he's a cut below Billy, but he has the same mind-set.

I haven't seen the deficiencies in his defensive game that a lot of posters continually refer to. What he lacks in foot speed (not too slow at that, even) he makes up for in anticipation to beat his man to a spot....a very intelligent player.

In his last game with the Warriors at home, he scores 18 pts and has 13 rebounds and is roundly booed by the home team. After such treatment, I can see him playing with less motivation. Talk about under appreciated.

I think that he has a spot on the starting team and will share duties with the PG in bringing the ball up occasionally. Of course, you can't draw many conclusions from two games but I've indeed, liked what I've seen so far.

3rdStrike
01-24-2007, 12:39 PM
He still has to prove he can shoot, though.

diamonddave00
01-24-2007, 12:54 PM
Mike Dunleavy is a career 43% shooter , so his shooting will pick up over the first 2 games.

His all around offensive game will fit in well here. He's a better ball handler than Jackson ,passer and moves without the ball. He also seems to take shots more in the flow of the game.

While on the defensive end he's not good but his long arms and body and hopefully active feet on defense can cause some problems. All Indiana basketball fans ask is that a player at least try to play defense and give effort.

Young
01-24-2007, 01:48 PM
Dunleavy, right now, is the best player in that trade, IMO. I love his game. I thought we had way to many guys who needed the ball to be effective and Dunleavy can be effective with or without the ball. I just love his game. It's refreshing.

His only fault is on defense but I think that he has the smarts to make up for it. He might not be a good defender one on one but if he can be a good team defender then that will more than make up for it.

CableKC
01-24-2007, 02:12 PM
Time for a quick lesson on Basketball 101 ( only cuz I don't know )

Can someone explain to me the difference between being a good "one on one" defender and someone that can play good team defense?

Is it possible to be a good "team defender" but not a good "one on one" defender?

Do you think that Dunleavy has the Basketball IQ and smarts to be one?

To be a good team defender...does it require as much Basketball IQ as it does actual physical skills?

3rdStrike
01-24-2007, 02:24 PM
I'm mainly concerned about his perimeter shooting. If he could develop himself into a consistent 38% three point shooter, his value to the team would increase dramatically.

And I do believe he could. Playing in GS taking good shots is not encouraged as much as taking quick shots. Plus he shot 37% his second year and 39% his third year. He has a nice shot, so hopefully Carlisle's organized offense will result in Dunleavy improving his perimeter shooting.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 02:47 PM
Time for a quick lesson on Basketball 101 ( only cuz I don't know )

Can someone explain to me the difference between being a good "one on one" defender and someone that can play good team defense?

Is it possible to be a good "team defender" but not a good "one on one" defender?

Do you think that Dunleavy has the Basketball IQ and smarts to be one?

To be a good team defender...does it require as much Basketball IQ as it does actual physical skills?

Team defense is knowing the defensive system and following - it also involves instincts. One-on-one defense has more to do with physical gifts, quickness and so forth.

The best example of a Pacers player who was great at both was Derrick McKey - he was a great one-on-one and a great team defender. Dale Davis is another guy. Those two not only had to guard their own men, but rhey had to help make up for Rik and Mark Jackson's subpar defense.

Ron Artest was the best one-on-one defender I've ever seen at the wing position - but his team defense wasn't nearly as good as McKey's.

The type of things JO does, blocking shots, taking charges those are all team defensive things. The type of stuff Jeff Foster is good at, such as staying in front of his own man, stealing the ball, using his quick feet and hands to challenge the shot are all one-on-one defensive things.

Team defense involves more of a feel for the game and Dunleavy is great at those things. But if you put him on Vince Carter and tell him to shut him down he'll be embarassed. But Granger can defend Vince pretty well.

pwee31
01-24-2007, 02:53 PM
Dun Dun was my favorite part of the trade as soon as I heard about it! I swtiched my Runi avatar to a Dun Dun when the news broke. I knew the talents that he had and thought they would fit well here, so far I haven't been disappointed. Though he hasn't shot well, he does many other positive things. If you're going to have a streaky shooter, they at least need to do other things!

Though Dunleavy was my favorite part of the trade, I'm still more excited to see if Diogu can develop. I knew MDj would fit in, but I'm hoping Ike pans out. Murphy was just an added bonus b/c I remembered him from ND and knew he could be productive. Now if Mcleod can become a decent PG off the bench when he's healthy.... then we're looking at a extremely happy Pacer fan.

Tony Valente
01-24-2007, 02:56 PM
I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana). So they insist that the sole reason Larry did this trade was because the fans weren't coming to games and now, with two white starters, they should identify themselves more with the team, or some bulls**t like that.

I tried to tell them that I bet Indiana fans would love a 15 black men champion team instead of a mixed-color mediocre one. I really doubt there is any truth in those speculation, so I ask you, the ones living in the state of Indiana, what's your opinion on that?

Roferr
01-24-2007, 03:07 PM
Team defense is knowing the defensive system and following - it also involves instincts. One-on-one defense has more to do with physical gifts, quickness and so forth.

The best example of a Pacers player who was great at both was Derrick McKey - he was a great one-on-one and a great team defender. Dale Davis is another guy. Those two not only had to guard their own men, but rhey had to help make up for Rik and Mark Jackson's subpar defense.

Ron Artest was the best one-on-one defender I've ever seen at the wing position - but his team defense wasn't nearly as good as McKey's.

The type of things JO does, blocking shots, taking charges those are all team defensive things. The type of stuff Jeff Foster is good at, such as staying in front of his own man, stealing the ball, using his quick feet and hands to challenge the shot are all one-on-one defensive things.

Team defense involves more of a feel for the game and Dunleavy is great at those things. But if you put him on Vince Carter and tell him to shut him down he'll be embarassed. But Granger can defend Vince pretty well.



Good explanation and examples.

I'd have to disagree a little about Ron being the best ond-on-one at the wing position. I'd put Michael Cooper a hair above him. Cooper could shut Bird down and I don't think Ron ever could.

FlavaDave
01-24-2007, 03:08 PM
I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana). So they insist that the sole reason Larry did this trade was because the fans weren't coming to games and now, with two white starters, they should identify themselves more with the team, or some bulls**t like that.

I tried to tell them that I bet Indiana fans would love a 15 black men champion team instead of a mixed-color mediocre one. I really doubt there is any truth in those speculation, so I ask you, the ones living in the state of Indiana, what's your opinion on that?


Three words:

REG-GIE! REG-GIE! REG-GIE!

Since86
01-24-2007, 03:17 PM
Well Tony, you can tell them that the KKK orignated from Tennessee. Elwood IN is/was (not for sure which) the national headquarters, but what strikes me as funny is the Elwood high school's mascot is the Black Panther.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Moses
01-24-2007, 03:19 PM
The only thing this team is really missing now is a PG who can make it all work. We've got some good role players in Dunleavy, Murphy, and Foster..and we've got some scoring from JO and Granger..we just need a PG who can do the right thing. I'm no longer convinced Tinsley is the right PG for this type of team. I think Tinsley would be great in another system playing faster basketball.

FlavaDave
01-24-2007, 03:21 PM
Time for a quick lesson on Basketball 101 ( only cuz I don't know )

Can someone explain to me the difference between being a good "one on one" defender and someone that can play good team defense?

Is it possible to be a good "team defender" but not a good "one on one" defender?

Do you think that Dunleavy has the Basketball IQ and smarts to be one?

To be a good team defender...does it require as much Basketball IQ as it does actual physical skills?


UB did a good job of breaking it down. I would say that being at least a competent one-on-one defender is a pre-requiste to being a good team defender, because if your one-on-one defense is weak, teams are going to run their offense through the guy you are guarding, making your team defense pretty worthless.

I would say that Artest and Bruce Bowen are two of the best one-on-one defenders. JO and Ben Wallace are two great help defenders whose one-on-one defense is only average. Off the top of my head, only two people are great at both: Tim Duncan and AK-47 (which is why Andrei's season is so disapointing to some). I think Josh Smith and Gerald Wallace can grow into this elite class.

pwee31
01-24-2007, 04:02 PM
Well Tony, you can tell them that the KKK orignated from Tennessee. Elwood IN is/was (not for sure which) the national headquarters, but what strikes me as funny is the Elwood high school's mascot is the Black Panther.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.


The main KKK that we know today was actually founded in Georgia.

Since86
01-24-2007, 04:05 PM
I guess I should have worded it differently, but I assumed it was Tenn. since the founder was from there.

EDIT: Although it doesn't matter, the first KKK convention was held in Nashville.

:tmyk:
Sorry, I love anything/everything about the Civil War.

EDIT#2: DunDun is quickly becoming my favorite Pacer. Although he hasn't been shooting well, he uses his teammates for his shots. He isn't a Jax like player, that catches the ball on the wing and tries to go one-on-one, using that stupid fake step move over and over again. He moves off ball screens really well, looking for the shot. Once he starts knocking that down consistantly, it will be a very hard play to stop with JO setting the screen, because the roll will open up.

I can't believe I read in another thread that his ball handling was suspect. :confused: He isn't going to cross anyone up anytime soon, but he's very efficient with it. Isn't flashy, just gets the job done. I really like the backcourt lineup of him and Quis, and it showed with the level of offensive play.

Bball
01-24-2007, 04:27 PM
I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana). So they insist that the sole reason Larry did this trade was because the fans weren't coming to games and now, with two white starters, they should identify themselves more with the team, or some bulls**t like that.

I tried to tell them that I bet Indiana fans would love a 15 black men champion team instead of a mixed-color mediocre one. I really doubt there is any truth in those speculation, so I ask you, the ones living in the state of Indiana, what's your opinion on that?

Ask your Romanian forumites to explain the Colts situation then. People seem to be following them just fine.

The Pacer problem has been the character of the product on the floor... not the color of it.

-Bball

Shamboubou
01-24-2007, 04:47 PM
I also really like the way the Dunleavy takes the ball to the basket when he gets the chance. It seems like we were missing somebody that would just take the ball to the hole. I think Dunleavy has brought that and I really like it.

Roferr
01-24-2007, 05:10 PM
I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana). So they insist that the sole reason Larry did this trade was because the fans weren't coming to games and now, with two white starters, they should identify themselves more with the team, or some bulls**t like that.

I tried to tell them that I bet Indiana fans would love a 15 black men champion team instead of a mixed-color mediocre one. I really doubt there is any truth in those speculation, so I ask you, the ones living in the state of Indiana, what's your opinion on that?

Hoosiers are probably the most knowledgeable among basketball fans. As long as the players are playing with effort and with the best interest of the team in mind, they don't care about the color of the players.

If a player is selfish and dogs it, it doesn't matter what color he is, he's not going to be liked.

Cro and Runi have probably taken about as much heat on this board as anyone. Well, maybe other than Jax. ;)

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 06:00 PM
One thing I liked to hear is that he loves the coaching staff and he also said Rick coaches basketball like he's used to. Not sure if that means like coach K or like his dad or what
That is probably the best sign, I agree. The problem has been more about buying in to the system than about it working, and I think some players bailed on it when other issues caused things to not work well (suspensions, injuries, chemistry). The bad situation created a negative association with everything that was going on with the team, at least that's my guess at it.

Any coherent system will be more effective than none at all, even if it's more fun for the players to play that way (ie, Al's attitude).

naptown
01-24-2007, 06:02 PM
I knew you all would love Dun once you seen him play. He is very much like Derrick McKey was, in the sense that you cant really appreciate everything he does by looking at box scores. You have to see him play to fully grasp all the little things he does to make the team better. He understands how the game is supposed to be played.

The only thing that has surprised me about him thus far is that he is more athletic than I was lead to believe.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 06:03 PM
They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states
Don't tell Tony Dungy or the fans that love him. Don't tell that grandma that was Ron's neighbor and apparently loved the guy.

It's out there, but it's not strong in the core fanbase within the city IMO.

Anthem
01-24-2007, 06:04 PM
People in Romania have opinions about racism in Indiana?

How wild.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 06:14 PM
I would say that being at least a competent one-on-one defender is a pre-requiste to being a good team defender,
I strongly disagree and here's why.

One on one is just about you and the guy in front of you. If you bite the upfake, get beat off the first step, fall off on a jab step to free a guy for the step-back shot, gamble for steals, etc then you are a bad one on one defender.

But you can still know this and know the defensive system created specifically to help alleviate these problems by complementing players. So you can overplay a guy so when he beats you he must go toward the spot you want him to go, where he will be picked up by a shot blocker, or where he must make a longer pass or take a tougher shot.

He can get by you just as quickly as ever, but by playing him with the other 9 players in mind you lesson the impact of your one on one mismatch. A smart but slow player takes advantage of the team situations in order to better defend his man than if it was just he and the opponent alone on the court.

On top of this is of course the ability close spaces, come with help defense and other team defense actions away from the ball. Blocking out a bigger guy so your own big can get the rebound, cutting off the dump off passing lane so your big can go for the shot block, etc. You don't have to be fast to do those things, just aware that they need to be done on the fly.


And a great one on one defender can be a terrible team defender. You can pick pockets, move your feet in front of a guy and generally be a real nuiscence to him, but totally fail to read plays away from your man. You don't help on switches well, you don't double when it's called for, you don't force teams to space better by closing gaps, you don't deny passing lanes, and so on.

The man in front of you will suffer but meanwhile you let the rest of your team drown. It's actually typical of selfish players who have a ton of talent and are just worried about looking good for themselves, despite the idea that all defense is about a team attitude. It's not. Flashy players like to show off HIGHLIGHT defense, big blocks and steals, without making the team game more difficult for the opponent. "Wasn't my guy scoring"


One-on-one defense has more to do with physical gifts, quickness and so forth.
I don't fully agree with this either. It's the instinctive view, but the fact is that a lot of good one on one defenders learn smart methods of defending players and taking away what they want to do, with or without some great amount of talent. Thus you have players that get by on talent vs players that don't.

Pulling the chair in the post - classic SMART one on one defense.

And a player like AI plays good team defense almost entirely off his talent rather than smarts. He has the speed to cheat the lanes or to sneak in from the backside of the post to steal the entry pass, etc.


The traditional view is that smarts = team and talent = one on one, but they are both skills that are built on talent + smarts in some ratio that varies from player to player.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 06:18 PM
That is probably the best sign, I agree. The problem has been more about buying in to the system than about it working, and I think some players bailed on it when other issues caused things to not work well (suspensions, injuries, chemistry). The bad situation created a negative association with everything that was going on with the team, at least that's my guess at it.

Any coherent system will be more effective than none at all, even if it's more fun for the players to play that way (ie, Al's attitude).


That is an excellent explanation for what more than likely did occur, and I hadn't really thought of it in those terms.

Tony Valente
01-24-2007, 06:21 PM
People in Romania have opinions about racism in Indiana? How wild.

That's exactly what that guy told me: "How could me, a guy from Bucharest, speak in the name of people in Indiana?" Hehe.
I had no intention to offend any of you, as I feel on this forum like home. Just wanted to point out opinions of some European "NBA forum experts".

FlavaDave
01-24-2007, 06:40 PM
I strongly disagree and here's why.

One on one is just about you and the guy in front of you. If you bite the upfake, get beat off the first step, fall off on a jab step to free a guy for the step-back shot, gamble for steals, etc then you are a bad one on one defender.

But you can still know this and know the defensive system created specifically to help alleviate these problems by complementing players. So you can overplay a guy so when he beats you he must go toward the spot you want him to go, where he will be picked up by a shot blocker, or where he must make a longer pass or take a tougher shot.

He can get by you just as quickly as ever, but by playing him with the other 9 players in mind you lesson the impact of your one on one mismatch. A smart but slow player takes advantage of the team situations in order to better defend his man than if it was just he and the opponent alone on the court.

On top of this is of course the ability close spaces, come with help defense and other team defense actions away from the ball. Blocking out a bigger guy so your own big can get the rebound, cutting off the dump off passing lane so your big can go for the shot block, etc. You don't have to be fast to do those things, just aware that they need to be done on the fly.


And a great one on one defender can be a terrible team defender. You can pick pockets, move your feet in front of a guy and generally be a real nuiscence to him, but totally fail to read plays away from your man. You don't help on switches well, you don't double when it's called for, you don't force teams to space better by closing gaps, you don't deny passing lanes, and so on.

The man in front of you will suffer but meanwhile you let the rest of your team drown. It's actually typical of selfish players who have a ton of talent and are just worried about looking good for themselves, despite the idea that all defense is about a team attitude. It's not. Flashy players like to show off HIGHLIGHT defense, big blocks and steals, without making the team game more difficult for the opponent. "Wasn't my guy scoring"


I agree that smarts can lessen the blow of sub-par one-on-one defense. But no amount of smarts can compensate for terrible defense. If a guy can blow by you without altering his path at all you can't funnel him anywhere, and if you have to sprint to close out a guy a quick pump fake/step/pop move will kill you without any chance to help out.

This is basically my point (and you touched on it in the second half of your post): You can be a great one-on-one defender while being a terrible team defender, but you can't be a great team defender while being a terrible one-on-one defender. A player's one-on-one defense is completely unbound from his team defense, but his team defense is somewhat bound by his one-on-one defense.

JayRedd
01-24-2007, 07:16 PM
Time for a quick lesson on Basketball 101 ( only cuz I don't know )

Can someone explain to me the difference between being a good "one on one" defender and someone that can play good team defense?

Is it possible to be a good "team defender" but not a good "one on one" defender?

Do you think that Dunleavy has the Basketball IQ and smarts to be one?

To be a good team defender...does it require as much Basketball IQ as it does actual physical skills?

Larry Bird was the first name that popped to mind when I read this. He obviously was by no means a great defender. He had zero foot speed and next to no lateral movement when he was trying to stop someone from scoring. Jordan's 63 in the Playoff game was hilarious on the few times when Bird tried to stay in front of the guy (after Ainge and DJ had both failed miserably). Dominique used to eat Larry's lunch every time they played too.

Basically, Larry was just not athletic or quick enough to contain anyone.

But Legend was a guy who's mental comprehension of the game of basketball was so far beyond 99.9% of other players that he could still be a well above average team defender a lot of the time. Don't get me wrong, he was exploited all the time and cost the Cs a ton of points (perhaps even Playoff games), but I imagine that most of his teamates wanted him out on the floor when things mattered---on both ends. And he did make three All Defense teams (all 2nd Team). For further proof, just ask Isiah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DrapEn5QA).

Reggie, similarly, became a much better defender in his later years. Whether it was just a better understanding of the game, learning "tricks of the trade" or just knowing what the top players in the League were going to do, he got A LOT better from his miserable beginnings without increasing his lateral movement or ability to keep dribblers in front of him with quickness.

And Jason Kidd is still a good TEAM defender. He can't stay in front of anyone anymore, but still remains in the Top 10 in steals with smarts, and generally helped his team be one of the better statistical defensive squads in the League last year despite starting Vince Carter and no shot blockers.

For guys whose good one-on-one defense doesn't translate to helping the TEAM, watch guys like Marcus Banks, Ruben Patterson, Andre Igoudala or Jason Richardson. These are guys that genearlly have no trouble staying in front of their man, but just don't understand what they should be doing aside from that.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 08:53 PM
Flava, I still disagree.

If a guy can blow by you without altering his path at all you can't funnel him anywhere, and if you have to sprint to close out a guy a quick pump fake/step/pop move will kill you without any chance to help out.
A smart player doesn't play himself into situations where he will need to rely on his weaker ability. You overplay a guys strong side so much that he has to "blow by" the other way...right to the help defense, and meanwhile you've dropped down to play the dump pass lane for the steal. You were slower but still won the team defensive battle.

And you only need to sprint out on a close out if you've misplayed in the first place. A good team defender sees this flow and cheats ahead of rotations and stuff, specifically so he can avoid having to rely on speed or hops. A smart and athletic defender will get ahead and then get the steal, while a weak one on one guy simply ensures that he's never hurting the team by being too far out of the play but is incapable of actually making that same steal. It's still great team defense because it's disrupting the offensive flow.


Reggie, similarly, became a much better defender in his later years. Whether it was just a better understanding of the game, learning "tricks of the trade" or just knowing what the top players in the League were going to do, he got A LOT better from his miserable beginnings without increasing his lateral movement or ability to keep dribblers in front of him with quickness.

And Jason Kidd is still a good TEAM defender. He can't stay in front of anyone anymore, but still remains in the Top 10 in steals with smarts, and generally helped his team be one of the better statistical defensive squads in the League last year despite starting Vince Carter and no shot blockers.

2 great examples. Kidd's range between one on one defense and team defense is as wide as any player in the NBA I think.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 09:01 PM
BTW, yes, Dunleavy is very athletic. He attacks the basket similar to Jack when he's on track and while he's not as crafty on the baseline he does create similar situations, and then he's got a wider array of passes he can make.

Unfortunately his shooting is even more on par with Jackson so far. Pretty awful.


Murphy is moving better than I thought he would be at this point. He's very fundamentally sound, just like Dunleavy. Both rely on fundamentals a lot more than Al or Jack did/do.

CableKC
01-24-2007, 09:09 PM
Thanks for all of your explanations....I really appreciate the responses.

:tmyk:

andreialta
01-25-2007, 01:12 AM
I love Mike Dunleavy jr., not a great scorer but plays the same all the time

Hicks
01-25-2007, 01:15 AM
I like him a lot as well. It's really refreshing to have a SG with a good head on his shoulders (on the court) who isn't worthless when he isn't hitting shots, and doesn't force bad shots.

Jose Slaughter
01-25-2007, 02:17 AM
Another note on Dunleavy. For those thinking he was taken too high in the draft.......... look at the quality of the players taken after him.

1. Yao Ming
2. Jay Williams
3. Mike Dunleavy
4. Drew Gooden
5. Nikoloz Tskitishvili
6. Dajuan Wagner
7. Nene Hilario
8. Chris Wilcox
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Caron Butler
11. Jared Jeffries
12. Melvin Ely
13. Marcus Haislip
14. Fred Jones
15. Bostjan Nachbar
16. Jiri Welsch
17. Juan Dixon
18. Curtis Borchardt
19. Ryan Humphrey
20. Kareem Rush
21. Qyntel Woods
22. Casey Jacobsen
23. Tayshaun Prince
24. Nenad Krstic
25. Frank Williams
26. John Salmons
27. Chris Jefferies
28. Dan Dickau

Nearly half that draft class is out of the league now. I could see maybe 3 or 4 guys that should have been taken ahead of him but he still should have been a mid lottery pick.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:43 AM
I agree.....Dunleavy probably ranks as a early teens draft pick when compared to the rest of the list.

What really stands out in your list is that of the 28......there are two 1st tier players ( Yao and Amare )....arguably 4 or 5 2nd tier players ( solid starters ) ....and maybe another 4 or 5 3rd tier players ( decent starters / solid roleplayers / backup players ).

tadscout
01-25-2007, 04:07 AM
I agree.....Dunleavy probably ranks as a early teens draft pick when compared to the rest of the list.


What?????

I see 4 players I'd pick for sure in Yao, Stoudemire, Prince and Butler... and maybe Gooden, Krstic and Nene IF you needed a big guy... Those are the only guys I'd see you'd even possibly think taking over him... so I think he could have been taken from 3-7th out of those players... so how on earth do you get early teens??? who else would you pick before him???

Robertmto
01-25-2007, 04:15 AM
What?????

I see 4 players I'd pick for sure in Yao, Stoudemire, Prince and Butler... and maybe Gooden, Krstic and Nene IF you needed a big guy... Those are the only guys I'd see you'd even possibly think taking over him... so I think he could have been taken from 3-7th out of those players... so how on earth do you get early teens??? who else would you pick before him???

I'm not him but...

Jared Jeffries, Juan Dixon, Jay Will (injusy aside obviously) and Chris Wilcox.

Mourning
01-25-2007, 04:31 AM
Juan Dixon and Chris Jeffries ... are you kidding?

There's no way I would take those two over MDJ.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Eindar
01-25-2007, 06:21 AM
Juan Dixon has no business on that list. I'd say Jeffries is a wash, and Wilcox seems like he'll be a better player someday, but it's been 5 years, and I'm still waiting :)

The guys I'd take over Dun right now are: Yao, Amare, Drew Gooden, Nene if not for his contract, Butler, Prince, and Krstic. That puts him as 8th on my list, you could go as low as 9th if you include Wilcox. That's not bad being drafted 3rd and valued 9th 5 years later. Of course, a lot of bad things happened for that to take place, including a career-ending motorcycle accident and a case of Colonitis. Had those two things not happened, I think they'd both be higher than Dun.

indygeezer
01-25-2007, 10:03 AM
I love watching DunDun play (so far). His hustle and energy reminds me of a kid named Don Buse who played for the Pacers years ago. DunDun will NEVER be the defensive player Buse was...but he seems to be just as heady and high energy as BooBoo.

Slick Pinkham
01-25-2007, 10:18 AM
If that draft were held today:

stars:
1. Yao Ming
2. Amare Stoudemire

big contrbutors:
3. Tayshaun Prince
4. Caron Butler
5. Nenad Krstic
6. Drew Gooden

valuable players:
7. Nene Hilario (based upon potential)
8. Chris Wilcox (based upon potential)
9. Mike Dunleavy

then Jeffries, Ely, Dixon

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 10:34 AM
Another note on Dunleavy. For those thinking he was taken too high in the draft.......... look at the quality of the players taken after him.

1. Yao Ming
2. Jay Williams
3. Mike Dunleavy
4. Drew Gooden
5. Nikoloz Tskitishvili
6. Dajuan Wagner
7. Nene Hilario
8. Chris Wilcox
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Caron Butler
11. Jared Jeffries
12. Melvin Ely
13. Marcus Haislip
14. Fred Jones
15. Bostjan Nachbar
16. Jiri Welsch
17. Juan Dixon
18. Curtis Borchardt
19. Ryan Humphrey
20. Kareem Rush
21. Qyntel Woods
22. Casey Jacobsen
23. Tayshaun Prince
24. Nenad Krstic
25. Frank Williams
26. John Salmons
27. Chris Jefferies
28. Dan Dickau

Nearly half that draft class is out of the league now. I could see maybe 3 or 4 guys that should have been taken ahead of him but he still should have been a mid lottery pick.



Great point.

Obviously Amare should have gone number 2 and Caron Butler should have gone ahead of Dunleavy, And probably Prince - other than those three Dunleavy is the 6th best player in that draft at worst he's 7th best player.

Terrible draft.

Edit: oops I overlooked Krstic.

As far as Gooden. He's pretty good now, but he's had a very difficult time getting to this point in his career. traded 3 times - not sure he's better than Dunleavy, but you could make that argument

Quis
01-25-2007, 10:43 AM
Not to mention the guy drafted a spot ahead of him at #2 completely wasted his career with one big stupid mistake.

There's only 4 players who've had significantly better careers thus far...

Yao , Amare, Caron, and Tayshaun. Krstic is on his way but I wouldn't say his career has been better thus far. Other than that, there's a trio of so-so big men in Gooden, Nene, and Wilcox and the rest pretty much suck.

IndyFan032589
01-25-2007, 10:51 AM
I'm surprised people actually like Dunleavy, I went to the game last night and my dad and I think he is the worst thing about the trade(I love Murphy though) and our whole section was screaming at Dunleavy b/c he can't play D and doesn't put any hustle or effort into anything and kept leaving Kapono wide open. Just mine and most of section 19's 2 cents

andreialta
01-25-2007, 11:41 AM
I'm surprised people actually like Dunleavy, I went to the game last night and my dad and I think he is the worst thing about the trade(I love Murphy though) and our whole section was screaming at Dunleavy b/c he can't play D and doesn't put any hustle or effort into anything and kept leaving Kapono wide open. Just mine and most of section 19's 2 cents

worst thing on the trade.. come on man, i don't know if this is the first time you've seen him play after the trade as a pacers. Today was just one of his awful shooting nights, only hit one three, and missed a lot of jumpers, but the reason he was on the floor a lot was because he was doing a lot, he wasn't forcing shots, still setting screens, still giving nice passes.

on the D, it's kinda hard to guard Kapono when Mourning and Walker are the screeners, i'm not saying he is unguardable but you have to put the fact that he is getting screened and Kapono is just automatic last night, other than that, i think he does a great job of moving his feet and helping out on the D.

He had an awful game and still finished with 9pts, 5 rebounds, 3 assists and a steal.

just a bad shooting night, 1 for 7 atleast he wasn't forcing shots, only shots he is taking is on the flow of the game.

This is just kind of an observation but when Tinsley is on the game, I don't think Dunleavy gets the ball a lot, because Tinsley often drives and goes to the hoop and doesn't pass out, while when D.A is there, the ball moves better.

Im not saying Tinsley is a bad player but I think he should be passing more

Jose Slaughter
01-25-2007, 11:56 AM
I didn't mention this in the post above but Carlos Boozer was a 2nd rounder that year. I'm not sure if anyothers from the 2nd turned into anything but Boozer should be added to that "lottery" list too.

JayRedd
01-25-2007, 12:11 PM
I didn't mention this in the post above but Carlos Boozer was a 2nd rounder that year. I'm not sure if anyothers from the 2nd turned into anything but Boozer should be added to that "lottery" list too.

The only other notable 2nd Rounders were:
- Dan Gadzuric
- Flip Murray
- Matt Barnes
- Lonny Baxter (is he still in the League?)
- Darius Songalia
- Rasual Butler

My "revised" 2002 NBA Draft based on current value would go:

1. Yao
2. Amare
3. Boozer
4. Tayshaun
5. Caron
6. Nenad
7. Gooden
8. Dunleavy
9. Wilcox
10. Jeffries
11. Nene
12. Dixon
13. Salmons
14. Casey Jacobson

(With Jason Williams obviously drafted somewhere in the Top 5 because of his superior talent before the accident.)

And while I agree that being taken #3 overall is not that early for someone who should have gone at #6 - #9, I do find it interesting that he was only the third most talented Dukie taken that year.

Putnam
01-25-2007, 12:25 PM
You tell 'em, Tony Valente...


I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana). So they insist that the sole reason Larry did this trade was because the fans weren't coming to games and now, with two white starters, they should identify themselves more with the team, or some bulls**t like that.

I tried to tell them that I bet Indiana fans would love a 15 black men champion team instead of a mixed-color mediocre one. I really doubt there is any truth in those speculation, so I ask you, the ones living in the state of Indiana, what's your opinion on that?


Sorry for the non-basketball content here. Here are a few things you can tell your Romanian friends.

The KKK was originated by Nathan Bedford Forrest right after the Civil War. He never set foot in Indiana. It was decidedly NOT started in Indiana. It was revived for a time as a political party throughout the nation during the 1920s and was strong in Indiana. The revival lasted for less than a decade, aimed as strongly against Jews nd Germans as against blacks, and accomplished nothing except the eventual imprisonment of party leader DC Stevenson.

If Indiana is the "most racist state" in the country, how come massive racially motivated riots have occurred in Los Angeles, Detroit, Washington, and New York, but never in Indianapolis?

You can't measure racism, but you can measure social outcomes. That is what I do for a living, and I could show you data all day long. The following link measures the extend of housing segregation in major cities:

http://mumford.albany.edu/census/WholePop/WPsort.html

Detroit, Milwaukee, New York, Chicago, Newark, Cleveland, Miami and Philadelphia all are more segregated than Indianapolis. Salt Lake City is also bettter than any of those, too.) We could go down a long list of social data, and Indianapolis wouldn't show up at the top (the bad end)
of any of them.


Ask those Romanian savants to explain how it can be racist that many of us are happy that Murphy is playing center rather than Jeff Foster. Or that many of us see the prime benefit of the trade being greater opportunity for Marquis Daniels and Danny Granger?

PacerMan
01-25-2007, 02:08 PM
a. It was decidedly NOT started in Indiana. It was revived for a time as a political party throughout the nation during the 1920s and was strong in Indiana. The revival lasted for less than a decade, aimed as strongly against Jews nd Germans as against blacks, and accomplished nothing except the eventual imprisonment of party leader DC Stevenson.

I


It's influence in Indiana and elsewhere had little to nothing to do with it's political power and everything to do with intimidation, segregation and murder, which it wielded quite successfully for 50 years or more. I know people that grew up in small towns all over the state that still had regular Klan activities in the 70's.

Since86
01-25-2007, 02:17 PM
Putnam, Cincinnatti should be on the list of highly racial tension. It is a city that has rioted for two straight years on MLK day, and for numerous other reasons.

It's not in the national media, but if you listen too 700 am (out of Cincinnatti) regularly they'll comment on it.

Roferr
01-25-2007, 02:41 PM
It's influence in Indiana and elsewhere had little to nothing to do with it's political power and everything to do with intimidation, segregation and murder, which it wielded quite successfully for 50 years or more. I know people that grew up in small towns all over the state that still had regular Klan activities in the 70's.

I was raised in a small southern Indiana town (less than 10,000) in the 40's and 50's and moved away at the age of 18. I never heard of any citizen in the town associated with the KKK or as far as that goes, I never even heard the KKK mentioned. If it was there it was so secretive that no one that I knew even knew of it.

I still am associated with the town through relatives and I still have yet to hear of anyone who belongs to the KKK or has ever belonged to it.

FlavaDave
01-25-2007, 02:52 PM
I was raised in a small southern Indiana town (less than 10,000) in the 40's and 50's and moved away at the age of 18. I never heard of any citizen in the town associated with the KKK or as far as that goes, I never even heard the KKK mentioned. If it was there it was so secretive that no one that I knew even knew of it.

I still am associated with the town through relatives and I still have yet to hear of anyone who belongs to the KKK or has ever belonged to it.


They didn't exactly have potluck pitch-ins at the town park. A group that wears hoods at all times is secretive by nature. In many chapters, members were required to wear hoods at all times (therefore, even the actual members of the KKK had no idea who else was in their chapter).

sweabs
01-25-2007, 02:59 PM
Unfortunately his shooting is even more on par with Jackson so far. Pretty awful.
The only difference being every second shot isn't forced up and killing the offence.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:05 PM
What?????

I see 4 players I'd pick for sure in Yao, Stoudemire, Prince and Butler... and maybe Gooden, Krstic and Nene IF you needed a big guy... Those are the only guys I'd see you'd even possibly think taking over him... so I think he could have been taken from 3-7th out of those players... so how on earth do you get early teens??? who else would you pick before him???
Okay...I stand corrected....maybe I over estimated the value of certain players. Dunleavy could fall anywhere between 7 and the 10th spot....IMHO ( and its just an opinon )...I would take Yao, Amare, Boozer, Nenad, Caron and Tayshaun ( in that order ) and depending on the needs of the team....he would be grouped alongside players such as Gooden, Nene or Gadzuric. I feel that Dunleavy falls in the catagory of players inbetween a 2nd and 3rd tier players....players that are good enough to start on lottery teams....but can solidly contribute to the team off the bench as a 6th Man rotational player playing 28+ minutes a game on a team with a good starting lineup. Obviously, he was picked too high as a 3rd pick......but he still has enough skills to contribute to a team.

JayRedd
01-25-2007, 03:21 PM
This is why you gotta love PD: Come for the Dunleavy discussion, stay for the KKK history lesson.

Well done, fellas.

Putnam
01-25-2007, 03:23 PM
They didn't exactly have potluck pitch-ins at the town park.

Oddly enough, they did. The unusual thing about the KKK in the '20s was that under Stevenson the Klan was above ground and out in the open. They did hold Sunday afternoon picnics in Ellenberger or Brookside Park. And, as I said, Stevenson's epoch didn't last long and ended with him in prison.


It's influence in Indiana and elsewhere had little to nothing to do with it's political power and everything to do with intimidation, segregation and murder, which it wielded quite successfully for 50 years or more. I know people that grew up in small towns all over the state that still had regular Klan activities in the 70's.

Since we are interested in comparisons, it doesn't help to talk about "Indiana and elsewhere." Sure, there is a Klan organization. But that does not prove that it is worse in Indiana than anywhere else. Indiana is not responsible for David Duke, for example.

Friends, I'm not trying to minimize the repulsiveness of any hate crime or any hate group. I just won't be quiet when anyone falsely categorizes Indianapolis or Indiana as being worse than it is. Tony Valente's romanian friends alleged that Indiana was the worst or second worst racist stqate in the nation. That ain't true. If you want to continue this, please start a thread in the Politics section. Thanks.

FlavaDave
01-25-2007, 03:37 PM
Sorry for helping to turn this thread political. I just thought it was interesting.


Back to the topic at hand:

Where do you think Shawne Williams, Danny Granger, and Mike Dunleavy will be in three years?

JayRedd
01-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Sorry for helping to turn this thread political. I just thought it was interesting.


As did I....Coming from the East Coast, I actually don't know that much about the Klan and it's beginnings.



Back to the topic at hand:


Where do you think Shawne Williams, Danny Granger, and Mike Dunleavy will be in three years?

Traded and starting for someone else; at the All-Star game; and coming off our bench, respectively.

FlavaDave
01-25-2007, 04:05 PM
Traded and starting for someone else; at the All-Star game; and coming off our bench, respectively.


Is Marquis your SG, or did we trade Williams for one?

JayRedd
01-25-2007, 04:44 PM
Is Marquis your SG, or did we trade Williams for one?

Neither. We find our new SG in the one-time "Dwyane Wade to Indiana Exemption" mandated by David Stern in the summer of 2008.

Seriously, I don't know. I still see Marquis as a guy who will come off the bench for any one of our perimeter guys (1, 2 or 3) and getting around 25 minutes a game. I don't see the long-term SG solution currently on our roster though. Mostly because I don't see anyone who can shoot in our back-court.

Wish we had a draft pick, because everyone's saying this draft is so big man heavy. I'm guessing they'll still be some very good guards around in the late teens/early 20s because most teams won't be able to stop themselves from drafting a 6'10 guy with potential. Guys like Ron Steele, Mustafa Shakur, Aaron Afflalo, JameSon Curry, Brandon Rush, Jared Jordan and even Chase Buddinger are probably gonna go later than they should in favor of young bigs with unproved talent like Spencer Hawes, Thaddeus Young, Brandon Wright, Tiago Splitter and even Hasheem Thabeet.

We might even be able to pull a rotation guard out of the 2nd Round, as big man heavy as this draft is predicted to be. I'd be shocked if there isn't a Gilbert Arenas/Carlos Boozer level talent that comes out of the 2nd Round. Or if not that, at least a Monta Ellis/Manu Ginobli type guy.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 04:47 PM
We might even be able to pull a rotation guard out of the 2nd Round, as big man heavy as this draft is predicted to be.
I've lost track....do we even have a single draft pick in the 2nd round of the 2007 draft?

or

Was our last remaining Draft pick shipped off for James White?

JayRedd
01-25-2007, 04:50 PM
I've lost track....do we even have a single draft pick in the 2nd round of the 2007 draft?

or

Was our last remaining Draft pick shipped off for James White?

Oh right....

D'OH!!!!!!!!!!!!


Okay...I'll be surprised if Memphis/Phoenix or whoever else has our picks doesn't pull a rotation-quality guard out of the 2nd Round.

Son of a.............!!!!!!!!!!!

FlavaDave
01-25-2007, 04:56 PM
Mustafa Shakur

If I had time, I would photoshop a picture of the Lion King's dad's head onto the body of Tupac.

Seriously though, that is one cool-*** name.

RWB
01-25-2007, 05:06 PM
I was arguing people on a Romanian forum, who keep saying that this was a "racist trade". They say Utah and Indiana are the most racist states with NBA teams (and that KKK originates from Indiana).

I don't know about folks from Indiana hating certain races, but I can confirm we do hate radicals who fly planes into buildings to kill people from all ethnicities, rich or poor, gender, age, or anything else that makea a person unique.

Anthem
01-25-2007, 07:09 PM
Putnam, Cincinnatti should be on the list of highly racial tension. It is a city that has rioted for two straight years on MLK day, and for numerous other reasons.

It's not in the national media, but if you listen too 700 am (out of Cincinnatti) regularly they'll comment on it.
Hard to say. My sister-in-law just moved to Cincinnati from Baltimore, and according to her, race relations are a lot calmer in Cincy than in Baltimore. Could just be who she knows, though. Could also be that the average person is nicer in Cincinnati.