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bnd45
01-23-2007, 02:39 PM
Since we're all going to be watching the Warriors closely for the rest of the season why not separate discussion about them from the rest of the NBA thoughts thread.

Al had his dream night last night. Big minutes, a lot of shots, 30 pts. Oh yeah, throw in a loss and 1 rebound.

Now last night Warrior fans got to see the Stephen Jackson that quickly wore out his welcome here in Indiana. One example, he came back in the game after an extended stint on the bench due to foul trouble, and on his first touch he did the old, 5 jab step, step back jumper for a brick. Nobody kills momentum quite like Stephen Jackson.

Sarunas is already pressing because he sees his minutes are diminishing. Interesting to see the Lakers start to press upon his entering the game. He bricked 2 wide open 3s, and made 3 horrible plays (1 on D) late in the game. Meanwhile our 38 yeard old PG had 16/8/10.

ajbry
01-23-2007, 03:57 PM
Needless to say, early observations are difficult to interpret. After an awful debut in Golden State, Al played well offensively last night. However, the Lakers (especially Bynum) handled the boards, even considering that Biedrins is a very solid rebounder. Jack had a rough night, couldn't get it going - the foul trouble attributed to that. Sarunas hit a couple shots, but got lost on defense like 3 times down the stretch. Powell looked good, even though it was surprising that he got some decent playing time.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how it works out - hell, that's why I bought League Pass yesterday - makes it much more feasible knowing that I'll be watching 2 teams now.

CableKC
01-23-2007, 05:06 PM
I watched parts of the game ( before cutting out to watch "Heroes" ). The team is way better with Baron in the game. I think part of it was also due to Kobe sitting.....but the team was able to build a decent lead throughout the course of the game.

The problem is that they don't play any real defense and end up letting their opponent stay in the game.

Unfortunately, Pietrus and SJax weren't able to contain Kobe.

I know that its mean...but I am glad that the Pacers ( not the Warriors ) were the team that was able to pull out the first win after the trade.

3rdStrike
01-23-2007, 05:26 PM
I think it's impressive that they stayed that close to the Lakers, all things considering.

I think GS has a chance to make a run at the 8th seed.

Jermaniac
01-23-2007, 08:22 PM
Al was having so much fun running up the court in Nellie's system, that he started running up the court as soon as the Lakers put up shots forgetting that he has to rebound.

This idiot complained about Rick not allowing him to bring the ball up the court? You are PF Al not a PG, have you ever heard Duncan or JO say that they dont like the offense because they dont get to bring the ball up the court?

aero
01-23-2007, 08:33 PM
i watched the game yesterday. NBA League Pass is free this week...at least it is on Directv not too sure about the other satellite providers, also not to be a spokes person for the NBA League Pass but they have a special going right now where you can get League Pas for the rest of the season for $99 which isn't too bad.

BlueNGold
01-23-2007, 09:13 PM
Jack had a good game, then bad. Al had a bad game, then good. Both are decent players....and this is about what I expected.

I am also not surprised by Al's 1 rebound. I'm sure whoever he defended didn't get blocked out either...and probably explains part of the rebounding disparity...and the loss. BTW, when you are a PF and play 43 minutes and get 1 rebound, it's because you didn't block out...which means the other team is getting offensive boards and easy put backs. It's an important part of the game that Al is sorely lacking.

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:41 PM
Warriors about to tip off against the Nets, let's see if they can get their first win with the new guys.

Jermaniac
01-24-2007, 11:42 PM
LMAO Jasikavicus is starting at the 2

bnd45
01-24-2007, 11:43 PM
FYI: Sarunas is starting at the 2 tonight. Nellie loved his playmaking against the Lakers the other night (SF Chronicle)

Al just got called for his token travel.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-24-2007, 11:43 PM
N-E-T-S NETS! NETS! NETS!

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:43 PM
Biedrins and Harrington travel on the first 2 possessions. Nice.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 11:43 PM
Saras is starting and he's guarding Kidd. I'm sure Nellie won't even notice his defense.

I'm trying to watch the Warriors game, but I feel sick the camerwork is horrible - herky-jerky.

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:49 PM
Jack with two straight steals, a tough bucket, and then Biedrins throws down.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-24-2007, 11:50 PM
Didn't Saras JUST complain about Carlisle making him a SG when he isn't? Saras stint in the NBA will fade fast if he doesn't start producing in his current spot.

And does this mean Jackson is playing small forward?

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:51 PM
And does this mean Jackson is playing small forward?

Yeah, he's been at the 3 for all three games so far.

pacers31tc
01-24-2007, 11:54 PM
LOL I was just checking that out. The Warriors are starting 3 Pacers, but at least we've got 2 good wins in a row.

Unclebuck
01-24-2007, 11:55 PM
Oh my Saras just tried to guard Carter

Jermaniac
01-24-2007, 11:55 PM
Saras is starting and he's guarding Kidd. I'm sure Nellie won't even notice his defense.

I dont think Nellie even watches this team play when they are on the defensive end.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-24-2007, 11:57 PM
Yeah, he's been at the 3 for all three games so far.

Didn't know that, thanks for the info.

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:57 PM
Saras has 3 fouls already. Nets are getting some decent calls anyway.

Jermaniac
01-24-2007, 11:58 PM
Sharunas with 3 fouls in 7 minutes of 1st qtr play ROFL

ajbry
01-24-2007, 11:59 PM
Jack gets hammered on the other end, doesn't get the call. Then Al plays Marcus Williams off by about 10 damn feet, letting him drain an easy 3. Warriors down by 12.

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:03 AM
The Warriors are having so much fun, so much fun that they are 0-2 since the trade and are on their way to losing to the Nets at home.

Al Harrington another trade mark turnover. OHH BOY HOW FUN.

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:04 AM
Nice aggressive move by Jax.

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:05 AM
Vince is killing them. 34 points given up in a QTR, pathetic Warriors pathetic. Best move by Mullin right? You raped us in the trade?

ajbry
01-25-2007, 12:08 AM
The Warriors look awful defensively. I don't understand why Nellie has put Baron on Vince. It ain't working.

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:09 AM
Down 16 at the end of the first. So much fun, what a hoot. Al Harrington is jumping around and making balloon animals its so fun.

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 12:10 AM
I think when the smoke clears on this trade, GS fans will have killed Mullin.

ajbry
01-25-2007, 12:11 AM
Al Harrington is jumping around and making balloon animals its so fun.

:laugh:

Al is having one of those nights where he ain't doing anything at all. I'd rather see Barnes a lot more tonight.

Cobol Sam
01-25-2007, 12:12 AM
Moore is playing well again? Can you imagine if the Nets landed Gasol with only having to give up one of its perimeter players? THAT team would Obliterate the Atlantic.

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:24 AM
Vince didnt touch Pietrus.

Jermaniac
01-25-2007, 12:31 AM
I hate Mikki Moore more then any player in the NBA

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:43 AM
Refs blew that call. Jax never touched it

Unclebuck
01-25-2007, 12:44 AM
The announcers sound surprised Jax missed two layups in the first half

ajbry
01-25-2007, 12:47 AM
So much for Al having a bad night, dude is actually giving a ton of effort and making some nice plays on both ends of the court.

pacerpride
01-25-2007, 01:01 AM
So much for Al having a bad night, dude is actually giving a ton of effort and making some nice plays on both ends of the court.

Al's effort seems to be directly proportional to the amount of points he scores. That's why I consider Al to be so inconsistent - it's not his game it's his effort.

#31
01-25-2007, 01:41 AM
Love Barnes, knew from first time ive seen him shoot he was a pure shooter... that textbook jumpshot he has is destined to be consistant from distance.

ajbry
01-25-2007, 02:07 AM
Monta Ellis is CLUTCH son. Great game.

#31
01-25-2007, 02:13 AM
Yes, awesome game... Monta FTW.

ajbry
01-25-2007, 02:14 AM
This was a big game for the Warriors to win. Jack didn't do much of anything, Pietrus the same, and Baron's shooting was off; and yet, they still pulled it out. Definitely a confidence boost.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 03:46 AM
Harrington looks like he had another solid game. Looks like Nellie's system fits his game....I'm just waiting for the Ws to play a team with a very solid PF where he has to provide some defense. PFs/Big Men like Duncan, Amare and Brand would simply abuse Harrington in the post.

bnd45
01-25-2007, 03:56 PM
Jackson did not look to happy to be sitting on the bench during the final 5-6 minutes. It's as if he thinks he's entitled to play the 40+ minutes every night and be on the floor at the end. He was really spoiled here with all of the minutes RC gave him. Barnes was simply playing better last night and deserved to be on the court.

The example to all of this was when Al hit a 3 to cut the Nets lead down to 2 (104-102). The Nets immediately called a TO and the entire Warrior bench was on their feet and out to greet their teammates. That is everyone but Mr. Jackson who just sat there. He can pretend to be a great teammate, but his true colors showed last night.

Also, I don't understand why some on here pull for the Warriors. After the way the guys criticized Carlisle on their way out, I hope that they lose every game. Once you turn in that Pacer uniform, you're done. I root for the name on the front, not the back.

CableKC
01-25-2007, 04:51 PM
Also, I don't understand why some on here pull for the Warriors. After the way the guys criticized Carlisle on their way out, I hope that they lose every game. Once you turn in that Pacer uniform, you're done. I root for the name on the front, not the back.
I don't think many of us root for the Warriors. For myself...I just pay attention to them only because I live in the Bay Area and can catch a Warriors game from time to time on TV. I will admit that I am paying more attention to them now simply because there are former Pacers on the roster....partly to see if they start reverting to their old ways.

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 01:50 AM
im watching the warriors / bobcats game right now... josh powell has had an impressive game playing with baron davis. makes me miss having him available for us :( they're currently blowing out charlotte. i think both teams won becuase Al and Stephen are definitely fitting in better out west and i'm certainly not disappointed in our acquistions (i guess i can't fully determine how i feel about keith until he plays).

GSW 121
CHA 91
5:49 4th Quarter

lol announcers just said powell has played 24 min... wow did he even get to that with Indiana altogether??? he's playing great.... but exhausted playing nellie's speed

Anthem
01-28-2007, 02:06 AM
Yeah, it's weird. I like Baston a lot, but it seems like we should have sent him to GS and kept the "project."

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 02:15 AM
Yeah, it's weird. I like Baston a lot, but it seems like we should have sent him to GS and kept the "project."
Josh Powell
28min
13pts / 7 rbd / 2 blk


as if that wasn't weird enough

HARRINGTON: 28pts (9/11, 5/5 3pt), 29min
JACKSON: 17pts (6/8, 1/1 3pt), 27min

...wow... i don't miss them but ...wow...

Lord Helmet
01-28-2007, 02:17 AM
Damnit, I want League Pass.......

bnd45
01-28-2007, 02:18 AM
They play like they did tonight and we're in trouble on 02-05.

Los Angeles
01-28-2007, 02:22 AM
Damnit, I want League Pass.......

It's only 100 bucks for the rest of the season - surely you have a few video games you could sell on ebay that would cover that.

The best part of league pass is watching the games on line either live or within 2 days.

I never miss a game now when I'm on the road.

Lord Helmet
01-28-2007, 02:23 AM
It's only 100 bucks for the rest of the season - surely you have a few video games you could sell on ebay that would cover that.

The best part of league pass is watching the games on line either live or within 2 days.

I never miss a game now when I'm on the road.
Yeah, but my douchebag cable company (Insight) doesn't offer it.

And we're not getting Dish, sadly.

Los Angeles
01-28-2007, 02:29 AM
Oh - I forgot about that Insight thing. If a cable company in LA didn't carry LP, the people would riot.

I would choose DirecTV over Dish. Though Dish has way better satellite Radio (Sirius, not XM) DirecTV has a better selection of channels. Plus, it's the only provider that shows NBA preseason games.

Lord Helmet
01-28-2007, 02:36 AM
Oh - I forgot about that Insight thing. If a cable company in LA didn't carry LP, the people would riot.

I would choose DirecTV over Dish. Though Dish has way better satellite Radio (Sirius, not XM) DirecTV has a better selection of channels. Plus, it's the only provider that shows NBA preseason games.
Well I'm in a small town about an hour away from Indy.

And Insight is the local cable monopoly.......

We like their broadband service and if we get rid of their cable, it goes to 50 dollars a month from the 30 we're paying now.

(How do you know I have some video games to spare? :devil:)

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 02:41 AM
i don't have LP (or a tv actually) but go to the thread about Pacer games online. thats how im watching

i was impressed by the high shooting percentage for both players in limited minutes. like i said, don't miss em like what we got now, i loved what i saw tonight. but still... i don't think either team lost the trade.

Lord Helmet
01-28-2007, 02:43 AM
i don't have LP (or a tv actually) but go to the thread about Pacer games online. thats how im watching
How does that stuff work?

Can I get viruses and stuff from it?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but the reason is because I want to see Sarunas.....AT THE 2!

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 02:52 AM
yeah i avoided it too at first... but i put it on last thursday to try it out... just click on the link in that thread and follow the instructions. with TVU what i went with, you get access to a number of games, but international stations, etc. anyway, i don't know how everything works (like they mentioned a trick to get ESPN & NBATV on it, but i can't quite figure out how) but there are a list of games available, etc... so far i haven't ahd computer-related probs.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-28-2007, 03:26 PM
Well after four games.....

Al Harrington-----
.554 fg%
.647 3pt%
25.3 PPG

Stephen Jackson---
.467 3pt%
4.5 RPG
2.2 SPG
16.5 PPG
Josh Powell needs 24 minutes to surpass his Indiana Pacer total.
Runi still isn't very good.

Anthem
01-28-2007, 03:48 PM
Well after four games.....

Al Harrington-----
.554 fg%
.647 3pt%
25.3 PPG

Stephen Jackson---
.467 3pt%
4.5 RPG
2.2 SPG
16.5 PPG
Josh Powell needs 24 minutes to surpass his Indiana Pacer total.
Runi still isn't very good.
Great numbers for both of them. I hope they continue to do well in Golden State... especially when playing against all non-Indy East Coast teams!

BlueNGold
01-28-2007, 04:21 PM
Well after four games.....

Al Harrington-----
.554 fg%
.647 3pt%
25.3 PPG

Stephen Jackson---
.467 3pt%
4.5 RPG
2.2 SPG
16.5 PPG
Josh Powell needs 24 minutes to surpass his Indiana Pacer total.
Runi still isn't very good.

It's true that GS is a better fit for both of them. But what everyone seems to be missing is that GS's style of play is not conducive to winning championships.

This is particularly true for Al's game. Power forwards are supposed to rebound and protect the paint. Who really believes you can win championships when you can't rebound nor defend? Really. What good is a power forward who cannot rebound nor defend any of the front court positions?

The problem with Al is that when the defense turns up on his game and he is not easily scoring, he adds very little else.

ajbry
01-28-2007, 04:59 PM
BlueNGold, you are absolutely correct regarding Al's lack of presence in the paint. Sure, his shooting has really picked up, but the Bobcats killed the Warriors in terms of offensive rebounding last night. Luckily, the defense otherwise was solid, which compensated for a lackluster effort on the boards.

Golden State is starting to pick up some momentum though, and their games are so much fun to watch.

avoidingtheclowns
01-28-2007, 06:06 PM
i don't think anyone expects GS to win a championship. HOWEVER nelson along with mark cuban restored dallas to a respectable team. i look at don nelson as organizational therapy: he takes the mess of the franchise he's given and then gets them winning not enough for a championship but back to a respectable level. no one thought the mavs under nellie were going to win a championship or at least no one outside of dallas fans maybe. but he made them certainly the most entertaining team in the league. avery johnson preaching defense to a talented offense is what elevated this team to the championship caliber. so i think that after nelson spends a few years there and develops a culture of success, then another coach probably with defensive passion (which i might think a former knight player like smart might understand the value of defense...) that could push the team over the top. if you look at the success Avery has had in Dallas, a lot of credit needs to go to Nellie for the culture he created. but no, i don't think the warriors believe Al or SJax will win them a championship, but Al will be valuable as a trading commodity, even more than he might have been a few days ago.

Slick Pinkham
01-30-2007, 02:37 PM
The Warriors have Europe's Jordan!

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?page=nbalocal/070130

Warriors Have Europe's Jordan
In European and Middle Eastern locations from Lithuania to Spain to Israel, there was a different spin. There the news read simply, "Saras traded to Warriors." "Saras" is headline writers' shorthand for Sarunas Jasikevicius, and although the 30-year-old Lithuanian was considered by most NBA experts to be the third-most important piece in the deal for the Warriors, behind Harrington and Jackson, his worldwide outreach far surpasses that of the other seven players in this deal combined. "I've never been over there, but I heard he's Jordan," Harrington said of Jasikevicius, who got married last summer to Linor Abargil, otherwise known as Miss World 1998. "I told him I'm going to go with him, to see if he's got people following him everywhere." -- Contra Costa Times

Evan_The_Dude
01-30-2007, 06:25 PM
The Warriors have Europe's Jordan!

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?page=nbalocal/070130

Warriors Have Europe's Jordan
In European and Middle Eastern locations from Lithuania to Spain to Israel, there was a different spin. There the news read simply, "Saras traded to Warriors." "Saras" is headline writers' shorthand for Sarunas Jasikevicius, and although the 30-year-old Lithuanian was considered by most NBA experts to be the third-most important piece in the deal for the Warriors, behind Harrington and Jackson, his worldwide outreach far surpasses that of the other seven players in this deal combined. "I've never been over there, but I heard he's Jordan," Harrington said of Jasikevicius, who got married last summer to Linor Abargil, otherwise known as Miss World 1998. "I told him I'm going to go with him, to see if he's got people following him everywhere." -- Contra Costa Times

LMAO. Ok.

porsche
01-30-2007, 06:44 PM
The Warriors have Europe's Jordan!

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?page=nbalocal/070130

Warriors Have Europe's Jordan
In European and Middle Eastern locations from Lithuania to Spain to Israel, there was a different spin. There the news read simply, "Saras traded to Warriors." "Saras" is headline writers' shorthand for Sarunas Jasikevicius, and although the 30-year-old Lithuanian was considered by most NBA experts to be the third-most important piece in the deal for the Warriors, behind Harrington and Jackson, his worldwide outreach far surpasses that of the other seven players in this deal combined. "I've never been over there, but I heard he's Jordan," Harrington said of Jasikevicius, who got married last summer to Linor Abargil, otherwise known as Miss World 1998. "I told him I'm going to go with him, to see if he's got people following him everywhere." -- Contra Costa Times

Who's the author of this article?

ajbry
01-30-2007, 07:32 PM
I forgot that LeBron ain't playing tonight, definitely gives Jack a much easier role defensively, so he sure as hell better have a very productive offensive night.

bnd45
01-30-2007, 07:34 PM
W's should get off to a good start on their 6 game trip tonight. Let's see if Jack and Al can help the Pacers and knock off one of our division rivals.

ajbry
01-30-2007, 07:37 PM
W's should get off to a good start on their 6 game trip tonight. Let's see if Jack and Al can help the Pacers and knock off one of our division rivals.

Definitely. A win would serve a good purpose for both teams, especially since the Warriors are a pathetic 4-15 on the road this season. They need to get it together during this 6-game stretch.

bnd45
01-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Well tonight is really the only game on the trip that I'll be pulling for them.

bellisimo
01-30-2007, 09:21 PM
so much for GSW givin us a hand by taking down the Cavs....

bnd45
01-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Yeah Al and Jack are still hurting the Pacers.

ajbry
01-30-2007, 09:24 PM
so much for GSW givin us a hand by taking down the Cavs....

You got that right. Sloppy basketball, Baron + Monta have 7 combined turnovers so far. Nellie's infatuation with Pietrus and Barnes definitely ain't helping either.

bellisimo
01-30-2007, 09:55 PM
You got that right. Sloppy basketball, Baron + Monta have 7 combined turnovers so far. Nellie's infatuation with Pietrus and Barnes definitely ain't helping either.

Al and Steph combined shooting 4/15 won't do anyone any good either...

AesopRockOn
01-30-2007, 10:40 PM
Who's the author of this article?

What his name, alcolpoco or something?

colonialspacers
01-30-2007, 11:25 PM
Apparently, underestimating the importance of defense will cause LeBron's backup to drop 24 on your team, and you lose by 27 to the undermanned Cavs.

Suprisingly enough, Al actually had 8 rebounds but did turn it over 3 times and shot poorly. Jax2 had more turnovers (2) than assists (1) in 23 minutes, and was outscored by the rest of the starters and four players on the bench (including Josh Powell who scored 7 points, which I presume took place during garbage time). Saras was a nonfactor. I don't miss them.

Unclebuck
01-31-2007, 10:35 AM
Here are a few of the latest evaluations from some Warriors fans. They see the same things we saw for years. Bad shooting from Jax, bad rebounding and inconsistant play from Al and Saras having trouble dribbling the ball. See we weren't crazy

http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=619727

Pitons
01-31-2007, 11:43 AM
Here are a few of the latest evaluations from some Warriors fans. They see the same things we saw for years. Bad shooting from Jax, bad rebounding and inconsistant play from Al and Saras having trouble dribbling the ball. See we weren't crazy

http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=619727

Jasikevicius was horrible. Jack and Al are very inconsistent (well, maybe Al is somewhat better). Really nothing new in new team, except the fact that Jasikevicius is much more awful than playing for Indiana.

Shade
01-31-2007, 03:22 PM
So far, all the players swapped are playing pretty much the same for their new teams. No surprises. Whoever "won" on this deal will come down to how Diogu and Powell (don't laugh) pan out.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 03:26 PM
Powell is underrated.

I wish we could've given up Marshall instead, and yes I know he's played extremely well the past few games. But other teams will pick up the scouting report on him pretty quickly, and my hunch is that he'll really struggle when that happens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ike is going to be a major player. But I liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason before he disappered into street clothes.

avoidingtheclowns
01-31-2007, 03:28 PM
Powell is underrated.

I wish we could've given up Marshall instead, and yes I know he's played extremely well the past few games. But other teams will pick up the scouting report on him pretty quickly, and my hunch is that he'll really struggle when that happens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ike is going to be a major player. But I liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason before he disappered into street clothes.

i would have prefered to give up baston. which is odd actually since he seems a little more nellie's style than josh.

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 03:32 PM
Fine point.

I think there's enough of salary difference though to make that difficult (though I could be wrong...)

avoidingtheclowns
01-31-2007, 03:38 PM
Fine point.

I think there's enough of salary difference though to make that difficult (though I could be wrong...)

unless hoopshype is wrong, both are listed at $744,551/1 year

ChicagoJ
01-31-2007, 04:32 PM
I can't believe Powell is that high, unless I've lost track of the minimum amounts.

Powell is an undrafted second-year player, right?

CableKC
01-31-2007, 05:18 PM
I would suspect that Nellie wanted Powell. He's the type of player that he likes. That's why he loved Matt Barnes and still gives him 20+ minutes a night...both players do what everyone else doesn't do...provide decent defense, hustles and rebounds while being versatile enough to play backup SF and PF minutes.

Roy Munson
02-01-2007, 02:20 PM
So far, all the players swapped are playing pretty much the same for their new teams. No surprises. Whoever "won" on this deal will come down to how Diogu and Powell (don't laugh) pan out.

After about 20 game I think the "winner" of the trade will be obvious -- it will be reflected in the won-loss records of each time. My prediction is that the Pacers will be pretty much the same or perhaps a little bit better, while the Warriors are going to fall apart, mostly due to a chemical imbalance.

BlueNGold
02-01-2007, 08:18 PM
After about 20 game I think the "winner" of the trade will be obvious -- it will be reflected in the won-loss records of each time. My prediction is that the Pacers will be pretty much the same or perhaps a little bit better, while the Warriors are going to fall apart, mostly due to a chemical imbalance.

So far, so good. They are 2-4 and we are 4-2. Their schedule was a little more difficult, but I like what I see. They just got blown out two straight nights...once by the Hawks.

The telling quote from Yahoo says it all: "The Atlanta Hawks (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/atl/) tried on Golden State's style of play and liked the fit. "

BTW, this is the most fun Al has ever had in the NBA. LMAO!

Unclebuck
02-02-2007, 09:46 AM
I bet Nellie really wanted Marquis Daniels. He loved him when he coached him in Dallas - but I think Bird and DW didn't want to give him up.

Jetman
02-02-2007, 03:42 PM
I think that something that I have seen, of course I mean checking the box scores since I rarely get to see a game, maybe someone could check the stats, before and after the trade,
but I remember regularly getting outrebounded by opposing teams before, but since the trade, i think our rebounding differential is much much better than before, but again, this is the impression i get,
i do know that Golden State is dead last now in rebounding differential. maybe someone could check that, i can do it by season, but not by date.

ajbry
02-02-2007, 05:28 PM
I think that something that I have seen, of course I mean checking the box scores since I rarely get to see a game, maybe someone could check the stats, before and after the trade,
but I remember regularly getting outrebounded by opposing teams before, but since the trade, i think our rebounding differential is much much better than before, but again, this is the impression i get,
i do know that Golden State is dead last now in rebounding differential. maybe someone could check that, i can do it by season, but not by date.

That's what happens when your starting PF averages 1 rebound per 6 minutes on the floor. Harrington is such a pathetic rebounder, even his offensive explosions haven't exactly compensated for his lack of boards.

Shade
02-02-2007, 05:31 PM
Powell is underrated.

I wish we could've given up Marshall instead, and yes I know he's played extremely well the past few games. But other teams will pick up the scouting report on him pretty quickly, and my hunch is that he'll really struggle when that happens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ike is going to be a major player. But I liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason before he disappered into street clothes.

Agreed Jay. I like Rawle and definitely wanted him on the team, but Powell was clearly better than him in preseason.

In fact, at the Boston game I told Gnome that the player I most miss from the trade was Powell.

Shade
02-02-2007, 05:38 PM
After about 20 game I think the "winner" of the trade will be obvious -- it will be reflected in the won-loss records of each time. My prediction is that the Pacers will be pretty much the same or perhaps a little bit better, while the Warriors are going to fall apart, mostly due to a chemical imbalance.

In my observation so far, I think the Warriors have the potential to be much better, like we did, but will suffer because Al and Jack will never play up to their potential.

I think the Pacers are a little better now in that they should be more consistent, but a little worse in that I don't think they have the potential to hang with the big boys like they did if Al and Jack played well.

IOW, both teams will put up roughly the same numbers as they did pre-trade, but we'll nab a few more regular season wins while GS will have more flexibility in future restructuring.

ajbry
02-02-2007, 05:39 PM
Agreed Jay. I like Rawle and definitely wanted him on the team, but Powell was clearly better than him in preseason.

In fact, at the Boston game I told Gnome that the player I most miss from the trade was Powell.

Powell has looked very good thus far. Nellie gave him early confidence (and minutes, which he couldn't get here), and he provides toughness; solid, consistent interior defense; and a tenacity on offense. Essentially, he's almost the anti-Warrior at this point (actually hustles and doesn't hog the ball), but he seems to be fitting in well already.

BlueNGold
02-02-2007, 06:45 PM
I really, really like Powell as well, but I think we have a better player in Ike....who can't get time on the court either with JO in the way. ...and our needs right now are in the back court more than front. ...and since we dumped Flight and sent Jack to GS, we need Marshall.

I would rather have Marshall anyway, because I think he's the more talented player. ...but there has not been enough proof of this YET.

Anthem
02-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Powell is underrated.

I wish we could've given up Marshall instead, and yes I know he's played extremely well the past few games. But other teams will pick up the scouting report on him pretty quickly, and my hunch is that he'll really struggle when that happens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Ike is going to be a major player. But I liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason before he disappered into street clothes.
No reason to keep Baston and Powell... if we're going to keep Powell, we might as well have moved Baston.

Then we'd have two young PFs, though, in Powell and Ike. Same problem either way.

Naptown_Seth
02-02-2007, 11:57 PM
And Saras takes the DNP-CD tonight. Yeah, it was all about Rick and that slow down system. That up-tempo GS thing is working right into his hands and showing how poor Jack and Al are...er...

Still not a huge fan of the trade though it does seem to have helped alter the Pacers mood on the court if not the chemistry (yet, that takes time). But right now Saras is a bigger afterthought than Powell. Powell is actually still getting tiny bits of PT, and not in blowouts either (like Saras got the other day).

People have been saying it before now, but again this does appear to be somewhat of a win-win trade.

Naptown_Seth
02-03-2007, 12:02 AM
If we are comparing the next 20 games, let's also keep in mind that this is BY FAR the easiest stretch the Pacers get all season. Before or after the trade I would expect them to win 10 straight, sincerely. The Lakers game is the toughest pairing in the whole stretch IMO.

If the Pacers play the same as before and the Warriors play better than they were, then doesn't that really imply that the Warriors still won the trade? If they were 1-20 before the deal and went to 9-12 after, that looks like a big improvement.

You can't just compare straight records if the teams trading weren't equal to begin with.

Unclebuck
02-03-2007, 12:03 AM
And Saras takes the DNP-CD tonight. Yeah, it was all about Rick and that slow down system. That up-tempo GS thing is working right into his hands and showing how poor Jack and Al are...er...

Still not a huge fan of the trade though it does seem to have helped alter the Pacers mood on the court if not the chemistry (yet, that takes time). But right now Saras is a bigger afterthought than Powell. Powell is actually still getting tiny bits of PT, and not in blowouts either (like Saras got the other day).

People have been saying it before now, but again this does appear to be somewhat of a win-win trade.


I think for whatever reason the Pacers are a better team now than they were prior to the trade. And that is before McLean has played a second and before Ike knows what he's doing out there in his 3rd system in a year and a half - and that is with Mike shooting horribly.

As strange as it might sound I think the pacers are a better team now more because of the players we lost than the players we received. - if that makes any sense. In other words the subtraction of Jax, Al and Saras has helped the players that were on the Pacers this whole season and also the new guys have helped them as well. It isn't like Dun, Murph, Ike have played great but any means

BlueNGold
02-03-2007, 12:24 AM
You can't just compare straight records if the teams trading weren't equal to begin with.

I see our previous #2 and #3 scorers, both starters, go to a team with a significantly worse winning percentage, yet GS's winning pct. is dropping even further. ...while we are going on a winning streak. OK, maybe the competition is tougher, but goodness gracious it was our #2 and #3 shooters. Certainly that would be a huge boost for GS and huge drop for us if we had lost this trade.

The truth is, I don't care if it helps GS or not. We won't be seeing them in the post season as long as Al Harrington and Stephen Jackson are in their starting lineup. What does matter is that we are better now...for a multitude of reasons.

Anthem
02-03-2007, 11:54 PM
Interesting tidbit. I don't watch the Warriors, and haven't really been following them since the trade. That said, tonight I had 10 minutes to kill waiting for the Pacer game and I caught a tiny bit of the embarrassing GS loss. I don't know how "in the know" the GS announcers are, but they made it sound as if Powell was an important part of the trade, from their side.

Nellie coached Powell at Dallas before he came to Indy, and evidently hasn't been surprised at all by Powell's strong play. The announcers said (and who knows if they're right) that GS bluffed Indy into believing they thought of Powell as a throw-in player, when in fact he was targeted from the beginning. For whatever that's worth.

-

And I will say that neither of the Pacers starters looked great in the few minutes I watched of the GS game. Evidently Jack and Al had a rough night: combined line was 10-30 (1-7 3fg), with 9 rebounds, 5 assists, and 7 turnovers, 1 block, and no steals.

It's hard not to feel good about this trade. I could trade Trophy and DunDun for zilch right now and still feel good about this trade.

Eindar
02-04-2007, 12:03 AM
I think for whatever reason the Pacers are a better team now than they were prior to the trade. And that is before McLean has played a second and before Ike knows what he's doing out there in his 3rd system in a year and a half - and that is with Mike shooting horribly.

As strange as it might sound I think the pacers are a better team now more because of the players we lost than the players we received. - if that makes any sense. In other words the subtraction of Jax, Al and Saras has helped the players that were on the Pacers this whole season and also the new guys have helped them as well. It isn't like Dun, Murph, Ike have played great but any means

We should take a look at Grimmus, he looks like he could play the post for us.

Jetman
02-04-2007, 12:08 AM
again, as has been said before, the players that leave the pacers, have not been blossoming into things that they weren't here. Time will tell with the trade, but I love it. Besides the record since the trade, the pacers are rebounding so much better, again, addition by subraction of the 2 superchuckers, btw, tonight they were a combined 10 for 30, Jackson had a whole rebound.
the pacers 51 to 34 advantage on the boards is becoming the norm.

BlueNGold
02-04-2007, 12:21 AM
LMAO. Looks like Jack and Al have arrived.

Look at this quote from Baron Davis:

"It could have been fatigue, I don't know, but the ball stopped moving," Davis said. "We started complaining about calls," Davis said.

avoidingtheclowns
02-04-2007, 12:26 AM
anyone see the HUGE gerald wallace block on a harrington dunk attempt??? monster block. wallace impresses the hell out of me everytime i see him.

ajbry
02-04-2007, 01:07 AM
LMAO. Looks like Jack and Al have arrived.

Look at this quote from Baron Davis:

"It could have been fatigue, I don't know, but the ball stopped moving," Davis said. "We started complaining about calls," Davis said.

Funny quote from Baron right there. I have never seen a PG who somehow gets as many assists as he does, without actually getting his teammates involved. After watching him extensively over the past couple of weeks, his ball dominance makes Tins look like Steve Nash. So many stale possessions.

If they ain't running, their halfcourt offense is abysmal. For example, if Baron is double-teamed, most likely, he'll throw a shot up. I guess he doesn't feel too confidently in kicking the ball out to open perimeter shooters.

Additionally, to add this in there, if things keep going as they currently are, I could see Jack being dealt again. He ain't getting his touches - and even I can admit - the scariest aspect of this whole situation is that he passes the ball substantially more than most of the W's players. In general, he either has been making a solid effort to either post up, or drive to the hole. Usually it will result in a solid pass to an open man.

Lastly, Andris Biedrins is so ridiculously underutilized. He began tonight's game hot, and then the team just forgot about him completely. The good thing is that he kept active (career-high in boards), but he's got to feel a bit annoyed.

BlueNGold
02-04-2007, 01:29 AM
Funny quote from Baron right there. I have never seen a PG who somehow gets as many assists as he does, without actually getting his teammates involved. After watching him extensively over the past couple of weeks, his ball dominance makes Tins look like Steve Nash. So many stale possessions.

If they ain't running, their halfcourt offense is abysmal. For example, if Baron is double-teamed, most likely, he'll throw a shot up. I guess he doesn't feel too confidently in kicking the ball out to open perimeter shooters.

Additionally, to add this in there, if things keep going as they currently are, I could see Jack being dealt again. He ain't getting his touches - and even I can admit - the scariest aspect of this whole situation is that he passes the ball substantially more than most of the W's players. In general, he either has been making a solid effort to either post up, or drive to the hole. Usually it will result in a solid pass to an open man.

Lastly, Andris Biedrins is so ridiculously underutilized. He began tonight's game hot, and then the team just forgot about him completely. The good thing is that he kept active (career-high in boards), but he's got to feel a bit annoyed.

No doubt Baron is a ball hog...he always has been...but Al also got up 20 shots. With Monta, Biedrens and Jack on the team, let's just say there are a lot of willing shooters. Baron led the team with 4 assists. Black hole heaven, baby. LOL.

BTW, that's why they are getting beat. This is not rocket science.

The biggest problem, however, is something no one talks about. They will most definitely need to break up this team to make progress. No way all of those guys will change and start sharing the ball...particularly Harrington.

CableKC
02-04-2007, 02:13 AM
No doubt Baron is a ball hog...he always has been...but Al also got up 20 shots. With Monta, Biedrens and Jack on the team, let's just say there are a lot of willing shooters. Baron led the team with 4 assists. Black hole heaven, baby. LOL.

BTW, that's why they are getting beat. This is not rocket science.

The biggest problem, however, is something no one talks about. They will most definitely need to break up this team to make progress. No way all of those guys will change and start sharing the ball...particularly Harrington.
Things are going to get progressively worse once JRich comes back. They will have many solid 1st through 3rd scoring options on the floor at all times....but its going to be hard for all of them to share the ball.

I really think that that they will deal JRich and filler for a solid 3rd/4th rebounding PF option and shift Harrington to the SF spot. Maybe something like JRich+Zarko ( or filler ) for Al Jefferson+Ratliff?

avoidingtheclowns
02-04-2007, 02:23 AM
No doubt Baron is a ball hog...he always has been...but Al also got up 20 shots. With Monta, Biedrens and Jack on the team, let's just say there are a lot of willing shooters. Baron led the team with 4 assists. Black hole heaven, baby. LOL.

BTW, that's why they are getting beat. This is not rocket science.

The biggest problem, however, is something no one talks about. They will most definitely need to break up this team to make progress. No way all of those guys will change and start sharing the ball...particularly Harrington.

which is the funny thing... because jason richardson isn't even playing right now... what the hell happens when he returns? (EDIT: Cable beat me too it...)

the warriors are (with the exception of salary) going the way of the knicks... too many shooters who demand too many touches who are too unhappy by a PG who doesn't look to pass first. like the pacers, i don't think GS is done dealing. maybe not before the deadline, i imagine shipping Jax, JRich, Foyle and maybe O'Bryant this summer isn't out of the question.

Will Galen
02-04-2007, 09:09 AM
I bet Nellie really wanted Marquis Daniels. He loved him when he coached him in Dallas - but I think Bird and DW didn't want to give him up.

According to Walsh there was only 3 people that knew about the trade, Bird and Walsh on our end and Chris Mullin on the other. Nellie didn't even know about it.

Unclebuck
02-04-2007, 11:06 AM
We should take a look at Grimmus, he looks like he could play the post for us.

oops, I don't know what happened. Have no idea where McLean came from. Is that even a name

FrenchConnection
02-04-2007, 11:35 AM
oops, I don't know what happened. Have no idea where McLean came from. Is that even a name

Bye Bye Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levy
But the levy was dry
Some good ole boys
were drinkin' whiskey and rye
singin' "this will be the day that I day"
"This will be the day that I die."

Eindar
02-05-2007, 12:21 AM
Bye Bye Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levy
But the levy was dry
Some good ole boys
were drinkin' whiskey and rye
singin' "this will be the day that I day"
"This will be the day that I die."

That's the other direction I could have went, but that's Don Maclean, I think.

I decided to go with the ill-fated McDonalds burger angle. :)

Just messing with you UB.

pwee31
02-07-2007, 11:00 PM
Looks like Runi is having a good game tonight... too bad they're getting blown out! lol

Unclebuck
02-07-2007, 11:11 PM
How predictable is that the Warriors got beaten badly tonight

pwee31
02-07-2007, 11:12 PM
Shows how important that game was against us!! Good thing we played with urgency.... OH WAIT!

Skipddr
02-08-2007, 10:09 PM
If we are comparing the next 20 games, let's also keep in mind that this is BY FAR the easiest stretch the Pacers get all season. Before or after the trade I would expect them to win 10 straight, sincerely. The Lakers game is the toughest pairing in the whole stretch IMO.

If the Pacers play the same as before and the Warriors play better than they were, then doesn't that really imply that the Warriors still won the trade? If they were 1-20 before the deal and went to 9-12 after, that looks like a big improvement.

You can't just compare straight records if the teams trading weren't equal to begin with.

As we all know.....nothing is ever easy for the Pacers

ajbry
02-09-2007, 11:54 PM
With 2:49 left in the 1st:

Jack has 8 points, 3 assists.
Al has 12 points.

pwee31
02-09-2007, 11:58 PM
I didn't know Jack was neighbors with Coach Dungy?!?! If he was getting advice from him, maybe we should have kept him around!

pwee31
02-10-2007, 12:04 AM
I still miss Runi. I like Tinsley, but I think Runi would have been a better fit. They're both defensive liabilties, but Runi shoots better and passes better, better team player and decision maker. Tinsley is by far a better dribbler though! Oh well!

pwee31
02-10-2007, 12:07 AM
With 2:49 left in the 1st:

Jack has 8 points, 3 assists.
Al has 12 points.

Al is killing the bulls

ajbry
02-10-2007, 12:09 AM
Al is killing the bulls

Yep, he's feelin' it. 16 points already, on 12 shot attempts.

ajbry
02-10-2007, 12:43 AM
Entertaining game thus far.

Gordon leads the Bulls with 15. Jack has 15 as well, with 4 dimes and 2 steals. Harrington leads all scorers with 18.

Should be a good 2nd half.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 12:53 AM
This game is frustrating! Seeing our former players play so well, after we just loss tonight!

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the new guys as well

pwee31
02-10-2007, 01:40 AM
Geez, all our former players are playing pretty well tonight

ajbry
02-10-2007, 01:43 AM
Jack has 1 more point than Al, and it took him 8 less shots.

What a crazy run by the Warriors to get back in this thing. Sarunas, Barnes, Azubuike, Powell, and Pietrus really played a great little stretch.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 01:49 AM
Jack has 1 more point than Al, and it took him 8 less shots.

What a crazy run by the Warriors to get back in this thing. Sarunas, Barnes, Azubuike, Powell, and Pietrus really played a great little stretch.

No kidding, hopefully the starters don't blow it now! At least RC knows hwo to stay with the hot hand.

CableKC
02-10-2007, 01:55 AM
Seriously....did SJax ever pass the ball like that when he was here in Indy?

Kstat
02-10-2007, 01:56 AM
Ouch. Pietrus just went down really bad on his ankle...

ajbry
02-10-2007, 01:56 AM
Seriously....did SJax ever pass the ball like that when he was here in Indy?

He never was given the reigns.

Two CLUTCH assists, back-to-back. This is the Jack we all love, the 2003-04 and 2004-05 version.

ajbry
02-10-2007, 01:57 AM
Ouch. Pietrus just went down really bad on his ankle...

That replay they just showed looked awful. He seems to be relatively alright though.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 01:58 AM
Ouch Pietrus, and I've seen those passes from Jack b4

CableKC
02-10-2007, 01:58 AM
I'm calling it now....SJax is going to make the go-ahead winning basket...

pwee31
02-10-2007, 01:59 AM
LMAO!! What is AL doing?!!!

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:00 AM
Nellie definitely wishes he called a timeout there.

Al was way too early, damn. Overtime!

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:00 AM
This is a pretty good game. Better then ours earlier

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:01 AM
The main issue is that Monta, Stephen, and Al all have 5 fouls. Hopefully they stay out of trouble.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:02 AM
Nellie definitely wishes he called a timeout there.

Al was way too early, damn. Overtime!


:laugh: You see Al reaction to missing!! :laugh:

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:04 AM
Ben Gordon is a beast

CableKC
02-10-2007, 02:05 AM
Wow....Gordon is on fire.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:06 AM
Golden St. has some nice young talent....still!!!

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:07 AM
Harrington and Biedrins both gone. Damnit.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:07 AM
Crappy 6th foul on AL

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:08 AM
LOL nice Runi

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:09 AM
Get the ball to Jack. Wow.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:12 AM
Monta would have been a nice addition!

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:14 AM
Stephen is clutch as usual.

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:15 AM
I like Ben Gordon, but Hinrich is the best player on the Bulls

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:16 AM
aww 7 cabbages might have just cost them the game....................

Kstat
02-10-2007, 02:17 AM
Wow, Gordon wide open for the win and he throws up an airball.

CableKC
02-10-2007, 02:18 AM
I'm calling it now....SJax is going to make the go-ahead winning basket...

Man...did I call it or what?

Oyy....I don't know if I should be happy or not.....the Bulls lost....but the Ws win....:banghead:

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:18 AM
Pacers Win, Pacers............. oh wait.. sorry i forgot!

pwee31
02-10-2007, 02:19 AM
Man...did I call it or what?

Oyy....I don't know if I should be happy or not.....the Bulls lost....but the Ws win....:banghead:

Go ahead and be happy, I won't tell anyone

ajbry
02-10-2007, 02:21 AM
Awesome game to watch. Go Warriors.

Seed
02-10-2007, 02:51 AM
Jax played a great game tonight for the Ws. Some big defensive plays & nice passing. Al was horrible in the 2nd half. Saras & Powell provided good minutes off the bench. Nice game to watch.

imawhat
02-11-2007, 11:07 PM
Anyone else watching the GSW game? They're losing to Atlanta by double-digits at home...



Anyways, as the halftime buzzer sounds, Stephen Jackson is jawing with the refs, and then the camera/mic zoom in on him...

Stephen: This is basketball.

Ref: You better watch what you say.

Stephen: I say what I want to say...I say what I want to say.






I'm so glad that's not on our team anymore.

Anthem
02-11-2007, 11:28 PM
Stephen: This is basketball.

Ref: You better watch what you say.

Stephen: I say what I want to say...I say what I want to say.
You sure it wasn't "This is bulls***?"

ajbry
02-11-2007, 11:30 PM
Anyone else watching the GSW game? They're losing to Atlanta by double-digits at home...



Anyways, as the halftime buzzer sounds, Stephen Jackson is jawing with the refs, and then the camera/mic zoom in on him...

Stephen: This is basketball.

Ref: You better watch what you say.

Stephen: I say what I want to say...I say what I want to say.






I'm so glad that's not on our team anymore.

:laugh:

Warriors fans love his intensity, while we have to endure Mike Dunleavy from now on. Besides, the W's obviously needed a boost. They're within 2 right now.

Hicks
02-11-2007, 11:52 PM
Bad attitude with an official = intensity? I don't think so.

Anthem
02-12-2007, 12:00 AM
Bad attitude with an official = intensity? I don't think so.
It's Oakland. He'll fit in perfectly there.

Unclebuck
02-12-2007, 12:12 AM
Hawks are looking good, but the Warriors are creeping back in.

It is strange, the Hawks always seem like a much better team away from Atlanta.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:17 AM
Hawks are looking good, but the Warriors are creeping back in.

It is strange, the Hawks always seem like a much better team away from Atlanta.

The players probably get distracted by the conversations the fans are having in the stands.

CableKC
02-12-2007, 12:30 AM
SJax should have shot alot earlier.

ajbry
02-12-2007, 12:32 AM
****.

Stephen had a rough night.

CableKC
02-12-2007, 12:33 AM
****.

Stephen had a rough night.
That hesitation at the end really cost him....he should have just jacked it up so that they have a chance to get an offensive rebound.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:38 AM
:laugh:

Warriors fans love his intensity, while we have to endure Mike Dunleavy from now on. Besides, the W's obviously needed a boost. They're within 2 right now.

O RLY?


jackson sucks.


Stephen experienced brainlock.


terrible job by jax.


my god.


words can't really express how much i hate jax right now


WOW, Jackson WTF were you THINKING. Why would you let the clock go down for a buzzer beater? STUPID FOOK. Had Monta all day and he doesn't pass to him, no sympathy, none of his teammates even walked over to him they all just turned their backs and left the court. WOW.


:censored:'in choker.

:laugh:

ajbry
02-12-2007, 12:40 AM
That hesitation at the end really cost him....he should have just jacked it up so that they have a chance to get an offensive rebound.

I really don't understand what he was doing. Usually Jack is reliable in the clutch - I figured he would've either put it on the floor or gotten a better look. Damn.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:41 AM
****.

Stephen had a rough night.

Actually, stats-wise, Jack had a pretty standard night for him. 33% shooting (while taking the most shots on the team) and 0-6 from 3pt. range, with 3 turnovers and 4 boards. Oh, and a tech for *****ing at the refs, which ended up costing them the game. Sounds about right to me.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:46 AM
I really don't understand what he was doing. Usually Jack is reliable in the clutch - I figured he would've either put it on the floor or gotten a better look. Damn.

In what universe? :laugh:

Btw, I'm not trying to pick on you, ajbry. I'm just trying to penetrate your rose-colored (or is that gold-colored?) glasses a bit to remind you of why Jack is no longer a Pacer.

ajbry
02-12-2007, 12:48 AM
Btw, I'm not trying to pick on you, ajbry.

Yes you certainly are, and I'm done with this. Have a good night.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:49 AM
Ah...this sounds familiar:


**** i cant even concentrate on my work anymore.
these new pacers need to get smarter.
al with his half court 3 and jax with his brain fart in the last seconds, shouldve drove and gotten fouled at least.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:51 AM
Yes you certainly are, and I'm done with this. Have a good night.

I just posted proof that Warriors fans aren't nearly as ga-ga over Jack as you thought. If you make claims like you did, there should be room for rebuttal, no?

Anthem
02-12-2007, 12:52 AM
In what universe? :laugh:
Can't agree with this one, Shade. Jack's a very good clutch player... probably the best on our team while he was here. I'm glad to get rid of the other stuff, but he usually does a very good job in the clutch. We've won several games this year because of Jack's clutch shots.

Heck, Golden State has won several games this year because of Jack's clutch shots. Just look at the previous page.

Anthem
02-12-2007, 12:53 AM
I just posted proof that Warriors fans aren't nearly as ga-ga over Jack as you thought. If you make claims like you did, there should be room for rebuttal, no?
Posts from RealGM a minute after a loss don't mean squat. The guy who takes the last shot is always the hero or the goat. In general, ajbry's right. Golden State fans are, on the whole, much happier with Jack than they were with Dunleavy.

Give the guy a break.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:55 AM
Can't agree with this one, Shade. Jack's a very good clutch player... probably the best on our team while he was here. I'm glad to get rid of the other stuff, but he usually does a very good job in the clutch. We've won several games this year because of Jack's clutch shots.

Heck, Golden State has won several games this year because of Jack's clutch shots. Just look at the previous page.

You'll have to help me out then, because I think I remember Jack hitting one (maybe two) game-winning shots for us this year. However, I also remember far more ****-poor 4th quarter performances leading to losses.

imawhat
02-12-2007, 12:57 AM
Hawks are looking good, but the Warriors are creeping back in.

It is strange, the Hawks always seem like a much better team away from Atlanta.



They have won 5 straight on the road, best in the Eastern Conference this year.



Anyone see the lineup they had with Johnson, M. Williams, J. Childress, J. Smith, and S. Williams? I think all guys were 6'9"/6'10". Awesome.

Shade
02-12-2007, 12:58 AM
Posts from RealGM a minute after a loss don't mean squat. The guy who takes the last shot is always the hero or the goat. In general, the dude's right. Golden State fans are, on the whole, much happier with Jack than they were with Dunleavy.

Give the guy a break.

Oh, I won't debate that they're happier with him and Al than they are Murphleavy. But there are a good number of GS fans unhappy with one (or both) of them.

My whole point was just to point out the bad that Jack brings along with the good. If it weren't for stuff like tonight (whihc he brings far more often than not) he would still be a Pacer.

There's no reason to be bitter at the Pacers for trading Jack. He punched his own ticket out of town.

Anthem
02-12-2007, 12:58 AM
You'll have to help me out then, because I think I remember Jack hitting one (maybe two) game-winning shots for us this year. However, I also remember far more ****-poor 4th quarter performances leading to losses.
I don't have the play-by-play, but I know he hit the gamewinner last time we were at Golden State. Other people can think of more, I'm sure.

The kid's finally asleep. I'm going to bed.

imawhat
02-12-2007, 01:33 AM
I don't have the play-by-play, but I know he hit the gamewinner last time we were at Golden State. Other people can think of more, I'm sure.

The kid's finally asleep. I'm going to bed.


His others are a give and go layup against Philly last season and a game-tying three against Miami in 2005

imawhat
02-12-2007, 01:34 AM
Posts from RealGM a minute after a loss don't mean squat. The guy who takes the last shot is always the hero or the goat. In general, ajbry's right. Golden State fans are, on the whole, much happier with Jack than they were with Dunleavy.

Give the guy a break.



I can't think of anyone saying they hated Granger or wanted him gone after his consecutive last second misses.

CableKC
02-12-2007, 01:40 AM
I really don't understand what he was doing. Usually Jack is reliable in the clutch - I figured he would've either put it on the floor or gotten a better look. Damn.
Actually....I'm not thinking that he is clutch ( which he is sometimes )....I'm thinking that he wasn't his normal self...as in shooting the ball the second he got the ball and touched the 3pt line....and basically be himself and simply chuck the ball ( sorry...the best way that I could put it )...they would have had a better chance.

Alpolloloco
02-12-2007, 05:35 AM
Jasikevicius played near perfect for GSW yesterday. Maybe he should have been in at the end of the game because he's definitively more clutch than Jackson.

Slick Pinkham
02-12-2007, 11:32 AM
****.

Stephen had a rough night.

Actually his 6-18 shooting (33%) was better than two of his last 5 games (3-10 and 5-16).

So I would call his performance the statistical median over the 5-game stretch, and pretty typical shooting for Jax overall. He's proven to be a 40% shooter, and when his attempts go way up then that percentage goes down.

Adrian
02-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Baron Davis to have surgery...so this is golden opportunity for Sarunas.
He wanted minutes, he will have minutes.
He wanted fast pace offense, he has it. No more escuses. Either produces either will go back to Israel (fans will be happy to have him back). How long was his contract, 2 or 3 years?
Alos, Jack started from the bench tonight. Is it because his last minute brick from the other night?

PacersFan83
02-13-2007, 12:33 AM
Baron Davis makes Jamaal Tinsley look like an Iron Man by comparison. He needs to drop about 20 pounds.

Adrian
02-13-2007, 01:55 PM
OK, this is what happend...

Jackson arrived at halftime after his flight was diverted to Colorado Springs because of fog.
"I got here safe. That was all that mattered,'' said Jackson, who started the second half and quickly picked up a technical for arguing a call with official Jess Kersey.
He testified against Deon Willford, who was found guilty of felony battery and failure to stop at a scene of an accident, a misdemeanor, will be sentenced Feb. 28.
Jackson was booked into jail Oct. 12 and has been free since on $10,000 bond. He has pleaded not guilty to a felony charge of criminal recklessness and misdemeanor counts of battery and disorderly conduct in the fight outside Club Rio on Oct. 6. His trial is April 12. The criminal recklessness charge carries a prison term of six months to three years.
Willford's car hit Jackson after the fight started. The defendant testified Monday that the 6-foot-8 player was walking toward his car and pointing a gun at him. Other witnesses said Jackson was walking away from Willford's car and had no weapon out at the time.
"I'm just glad that a part of it's out of the way. I'm ready to move on,'' Jackson said of his testimony. "It went well. It's something I couldn't get around.''

bnd45
02-24-2007, 06:57 PM
Clips just punished the Warriors during the 4th quarter.

Jack lost the ball everytime he put it on the floor. Al disappeared during the final period. Sarunas with another DNP-CD.

Nothing like watching the Warriors lose to help ease the pain from a bad Pacers loss.

bnd45
03-04-2007, 04:35 PM
Up 106-104, the Warriors fouled Arenas with 0.1 and Nelson got a T after the call. Unreal. I can't believe they gave Nellie a T. Agent 0 drilled all 3. Wiz win.

Unclebuck
03-04-2007, 04:38 PM
That was a crazy ending

Kstat
03-04-2007, 04:40 PM
Whoever rang Nelson up for that tech shoud be fired. That was a terrible way to end a game.

Jermaniac
03-04-2007, 04:45 PM
lmao Warriors are trying to out tank us. The NBA refs are just great, amazing reffing at the end of the game. Big money must have been handed to the refs.

Unclebuck
03-04-2007, 04:52 PM
Whoever rang Nelson up for that tech shoud be fired. That was a terrible way to end a game.

Tony Brothers. He loves to call Techincals and I agree he should be punished for that call. At least from what I saw on the Wizards broadcast Nellie didn't really do too much.

There were some crazy calls in the Celts vs T-Wolves double OT game. - Fun game to watch though

Kstat
03-04-2007, 04:55 PM
that's my point. nelson didn't do anything to justify a technical foul with no time left.

Ike>Milsap>Maxiell
03-04-2007, 05:09 PM
that's my point. nelson didn't do anything to justify a technical foul with no time left.

And you know exactly what was said? The refs deserve respect, you don't show them proper respect, whether that be physically or verbally, you get T'd up. Neither of us know whether or not what Nelson said warranted a T, but what I do know is Nelson made a huge mistake even risking it, and it ended up costing his team the game. Bravo.

Naptown_Seth
03-04-2007, 07:10 PM
lmao Warriors are trying to out tank us. The NBA refs are just great, amazing reffing at the end of the game. Big money must have been handed to the refs.
Easy to do when since the trade you've gone without Baron Davis (imagine if JO was out all this time, puke) and then on top of that you lose Jackson with a busted toe (today was his 4th missed game I believe).

Even still they had a chance to beat an East playoff team on the road. Can you picture the Pacers being ahead of a similar West team on this trip (say Utah for example).

The good news is that Powell played. If there were one piece I could undo in the trade it would be Ike for Powell, the one thing that outsiders were saying went in the Pacers favor. After seeing Ike in action more I'm not sure I agree.

Even Dunleavy is coming around. Inside the arc on offense he's been great, might have found his comfort zone out there.


Still waiting on Saras to prove us all wrong, because after all none of us wanted him here or to see him be successful. :rolleyes:

Ike>Milsap>Maxiell
03-04-2007, 07:15 PM
Baron Davis isn't even 1/10th the player Jermaine O'Neal is.

Anthem
03-05-2007, 12:59 AM
Baron Davis isn't even 1/10th the player Jermaine O'Neal is.
Yeah, but at least the Warriors have this year's draft pick. :devil:



I need a "poke the hornets' nest with a stick" smiley.

Unclebuck
03-05-2007, 10:59 AM
We now know what Nelson said

http://www.washtimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20070305-123453-9559r


By Tom Knott
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published March 5, 2007

Don Nelson had every right to be livid after referee Tony Brothers called a foul on Mickael Pietrus that sent Gilbert Arenas to the free throw line with one-tenth of a second left on Fun Street yesterday.

Nelson had every right to wonder whether it was a makeup call after Al Harrington was granted two free throws because of an egregious call against Caron Butler with 2.9 seconds left.

Nelson had every right to make an R-rated assessment of the bizarre situation after going out onto the court to confront Brothers.

"Tony, you're a [bleeping] idiot," Nelson said.

Crew chief Derrick Stafford should have ignored Nelson's outburst and returned the game to the players.

Instead, he imposed a technical foul on Nelson, which led to the game being decided at the foul line.

Arenas converted all three free throw attempts as the Wizards defeated the Warriors 107-106 and avoided losing to an inferior opponent yet again.

"That was very different, very unique," Eddie Jordan said. "I can't ever remember seeing a game end like that."

Nelson's ire possibly was stoked further by the free throw discrepancy between the two teams. The Wizards finished with 34 free throw attempts, the Warriors 15.

That disparity was a prelude to the referee trio of Brothers, Stafford and Jason Phillips dominating the affair at the end and trying to right one wrong with another.

Nelson said he was told he incurred the technical foul for leaving the bench area, which he thought was a dubious contention.

"Eddie was on the floor as well," he said. "If they give me one, they have to give him one."

The Wizards insisted Nelson's technical foul came about not because of where he was on the floor but because of his interpersonal shortcomings.

"If you call somebody an idiot, you have to get a technical for that one," Arenas said. "And there was something said before that last word [idiot] was used."

The call against Butler never should have been made, no more than the call against Pietrus.

Replays indicated that if Pietrus did foul Arenas, it was because Arenas initiated the contact in desperation after the final horn had sounded.

The unwritten code of NBA referees is to let the players decide the outcome of the game, so long as the bumping and jostling is largely incidental.

Yet the crew in Tony Cheng's neighborhood squandered that prospect after sticking Harrington on the charity stripe.

Brothers apparently decided two bad calls could make a right, although the one against Pietrus was more absurd than the one against Butler.

At least with the latter, the referees did not have to huddle and stick to the cover-your-backside explanation of Pietrus somehow breathing in the personal space of Arenas with one-tenth of a second left.

If Brothers had elected to swallow his whistle instead of handing a gift to Arenas, the Wizards would have been bemoaning their fate and the call against Butler.

"I respect all the calls the officials made," Jordan said with a grin. "We have to live with it. Now if we had lost, maybe I would have something different to say."

Jordan has been on the wrong side of referees going brain dead, notably in a December game in Miami last season, when Shaquille O'Neal was awarded two free throw attempts in the waning seconds of regulation because of phantom contact on a loose ball.

O'Neal made one of the two free throw attempts to force an overtime, and the Heat ended up winning the game.

Arenas, in a playful mood after the referee-orchestrated escape, said he told the Warriors to go to the locker room, that the game was over, before stepping to the free throw line.

"This was no playoff game with Cleveland," Arenas said, referring to his two missed free throw attempts in Game 6 last spring.

It was not that. This was infinitely more obtuse.

As Antawn Jamison said, "You don't want to see a game decided like that."

Robertmto
03-05-2007, 11:36 AM
The moral of the story?


Stephan Jackson ruins everything he touches.












Oh and don't call refs "****in idiots"

Hicks
03-05-2007, 02:18 PM
If you go up to a ref and say "*Name*, you're a ****ing idiot." You deserve a T any time.

Robertmto
03-05-2007, 03:10 PM
If you go up to a ref and say "*Name*, you're a ****ing idiot." You deserve a T any time.

ESPECIALLY whn u play teh Wiz. :nod:

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Time for our check in with reality.

Does anyone know what happened Monday night? I think KStat does. Jack and Al went into Detroit and won for the 2nd time this year. Jack led the team in assists with 7. He had 8 assists vs Denver last night btw (2nd to Baron's 9).

The win in Detroit was by 18 points. In Detroit I said. Now picture the current Pacers going into Detroit and winning by 18. Heck, picture them winning any game by 18 right now.

If it wasn't for Nellie and a perhaps iffy foul call GS might have been on a 3 game winning streak over playoff teams, 2 of those on the road. And in the Wiz game it was Harrington who drew the foul and then hit the 2 FTs to give GS the 2pt lead with 2 seconds left (Jack was out with injury).


It was said that once Baron AND Richardson returned that Jack would hit the bench. The last 2 games Jack STARTED along with Baron and JRich, so that was wrong. Ellis came off the bench.

In the Denver game Melo didn't play, though that hadn't kept them from winning some games before, but bottom line is that the Warriors beat Denver, something the Pacers just failed to do themselves (and while Melo played in Indy, Iverson did not).

Jack also went 44% from 3 (4-9) which put his adjusted FG% for the night over 50% despite being 6-15.

They've now gone 9-10 when Jack has played, 9-14 when Al has played. The bulk of the losing streak occurred while Jack was out with his turf/broken toe.



And oh yeah, Saras didn't see the court in either the DET or DEN game. Still waiting for Euro-wonder to put it in our faces. Right now it looks a lot like Rick HELPED Saras rather than holding him back, at least compared to the chances that Nellie is giving him (barring injury).



What this tells me coupled with the Pacers results of the last few weeks is that despite the good attitude of Dun and Murph, whatever effort fans think they see now that they think didn't exist before, the Pacers got thumped by making that trade.

The Warriors are now playing some of their best ball (with Jack and Baron back) while the Pacers are mired in their worst section of ball in years, other than something featuring Haislip/Britten.

With GS Al has a better 3P% than Murph did (and Al has shot it more even) and trails Murph's per 48 rebounding by a whopping 1.5 boards.

And Jackson is even down the line with Dun on every per 48 (ast, steal, blk, a/to) except rebounding (trails by 2). Jack has an extra FTA per game, and has shot nearly the same as Dun was there except for his lower 3P% (the poor 33% to the below average 34.6% Dun had going in GS). One problem for Dun in that is that his shooting is higher only because of his run in NOV. After that he slumped badly.



Blah, blah, we don't care, they are gone, good riddance, etc, I'm sure that's what everyone is saying.

But to me anytime the team makes a trade and gets worse while the other team gets better (at least when the traded players actually play) it concerns me as a fan. If this trend continues it's not going to look good for TPTB, or honestly the fanbase that helped push for the deal to happen.

It's been 20 games. I didn't discard Fred, AJ, Croshere, or Dale in 20 games. I keep tabs on all of them. And this deal is clearly still in the evaluation phase anyway.



You know what will shut me up about it in fact? The current team winning with Dun and Murphy at least being as much as part of those wins as Al/Jack were (ie, if benching Dun and Murph makes the team start winning that doesn't make it a good trade).

Is that too much to ask?

You may think that I'm happy or gloating on the issue, but I don't feel that way at all. I don't want to be right because I want the team to win or at least play some smooth looking basketball. And I sure as heck don't like seeing former Pacers helping some other team win games when the current Pacers can't.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like it isn't happening.

CableKC
03-08-2007, 01:31 PM
I'm starting to agree with you on this. The trade is beginning to look more like a move to get rid of two players that weren't happy ( among other reasons ) for 2 players that don't complain but considered a definite downgrade in talent.

No matter how inconsistent SJax and Harrington were....at least they aren't as inconsistent as Dunleavy and Murphy are.

I really am beginning to hope that we aim for that draft pick.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2007, 01:47 PM
You'll have to help me out then, because I think I remember Jack hitting one (maybe two) game-winning shots for us this year. However, I also remember far more ****-poor 4th quarter performances leading to losses.
Jackson vs Denver. The 4th starts with GS up by 12 but AI quickly cuts it to 10 with a layup. 4 minutes later the lead is 20 and the game is over. How?

Jackson - 3pt
Jackson - 3pt miss
Jackson - 2pt jumper
Jackson - defensive reb
Jackson - 2 FTs made (drove and drew the foul)
Jackson - 3pt

Ellis had the only other bucket in the 12-2 run by GS. Jack was 2-3 from 3 in that stretch. DEN didn't reach that 93 point level (where GS was at then) till 35 seconds left in the game, so almost literally the game was over after Jackson's scoring outburst.



Vs Detroit at halftime it was already a 6 point game, but within 5.5 minutes that lead was 17 and the game was effectively over (I believe it never got closer than 15 after that point). During that 5.5 minute stretch you had:

Al - layup
Jack - bad pass
Jack - taking a Rip charge
Jack - O-reb, tip in
Jack - layup
Al - steal
Jack - 3pt (Al assist)
Al - 3pt (Baron assist)
Al - 3pt (Jack assist)

So in that 17-6 run to open the half up and break the game open Al and Jack combined for 2 of the 3 assists, 15 of the points (Al 8, Jack 7), took away 2 DET possessions and while Jack had the TO he also created a bonus possession with the O-REB (which he then scored).


Two wins by 14+ points vs playoff teams and at the center of the moment when the game is broken open for good you have Jackson, with Al being a huge part of the DET 3rd as well as clutch with what should have been the final FTs vs WSH.


I know it's not the same as a final shot to win, but honestly I'd rather have a guy that make the game a clear win 8-10 minutes before it's over instead. Yes it's true that Jack has bad nights too and that Al had turned into the invisible man for the Pacers on many nights.

But I'll bet Warriors fans aren't complaining about the recent results from either of them right now.

Shade
03-08-2007, 01:54 PM
Seth, to be fair, the Pistons were without Sheed, and the Pacers have been without Quis. That makes a difference, though I'm not sure how much of one.

I don't think anyone here pre or post-trade doubted that Al and Jack are more talented than Murph and Dun. However, like with Ron Artest, that talent sometimes comes with a price that is not worth paying. Al and Jack are horribly inconsistent, and Jack in particular is a troublemaker. Word is that Al was also behind a lot of the locker room chemistry issues here.



Jack also went 44% from 3 (4-9) which put his adjusted FG% for the night over 50% despite being 6-15.

C'mon now, Seth. Let's not resort to misrepresenting numbers here. Jack shot 40%, not 50%+. 40% is still pretty good, but I'm sure he'll have more than his fair share of 30-35% shooting game to negate that.


And oh yeah, Saras didn't see the court in either the DET or DEN game. Still waiting for Euro-wonder to put it in our faces. Right now it looks a lot like Rick HELPED Saras rather than holding him back, at least compared to the chances that Nellie is giving him (barring injury).

If this was a shot to the Carlisle detractors, then explain why Al and Jack are apparently playing better now without Rick?

Bear in mind that I've been slightly anti-trade since I heard about it, but there is a lot of selective arguing in your post.

And I still don't miss Al or Jack. I just wish (like I have since the trade first went down), that we had gotten better value for them.

Shade
03-08-2007, 01:58 PM
Jackson vs Denver. The 4th starts with GS up by 12 but AI quickly cuts it to 10 with a layup. 4 minutes later the lead is 20 and the game is over. How?

Jackson - 3pt
Jackson - 3pt miss
Jackson - 2pt jumper
Jackson - defensive reb
Jackson - 2 FTs made (drove and drew the foul)
Jackson - 3pt

Ellis had the only other bucket in the 12-2 run by GS. Jack was 2-3 from 3 in that stretch. DEN didn't reach that 93 point level (where GS was at then) till 35 seconds left in the game, so almost literally the game was over after Jackson's scoring outburst.



Vs Detroit at halftime it was already a 6 point game, but within 5.5 minutes that lead was 17 and the game was effectively over (I believe it never got closer than 15 after that point). During that 5.5 minute stretch you had:

Al - layup
Jack - bad pass
Jack - taking a Rip charge
Jack - O-reb, tip in
Jack - layup
Al - steal
Jack - 3pt (Al assist)
Al - 3pt (Baron assist)
Al - 3pt (Jack assist)

So in that 17-6 run to open the half up and break the game open Al and Jack combined for 2 of the 3 assists, 15 of the points (Al 8, Jack 7), took away 2 DET possessions and while Jack had the TO he also created a bonus possession with the O-REB (which he then scored).


Two wins by 14+ points vs playoff teams and at the center of the moment when the game is broken open for good you have Jackson, with Al being a huge part of the DET 3rd as well as clutch with what should have been the final FTs vs WSH.


I know it's not the same as a final shot to win, but honestly I'd rather have a guy that make the game a clear win 8-10 minutes before it's over instead. Yes it's true that Jack has bad nights too and that Al had turned into the invisible man for the Pacers on many nights.

But I'll bet Warriors fans aren't complaining about the recent results from either of them right now.

So, then, Al and Jack helped us win two of the 38 games they played this year? I must be missing your point.

Like I said, nobody is doubting Al's and Jack's talent. But you be have severe selective amnesia if you don't think they hurt at least as much as they helped on the court, and were both apparently troublemakers off the court.

Hell, if that's how you feel, maybe you think we should have kept Ron-Ron? After all, he's better than Al and Jack combined.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2007, 01:58 PM
I really am beginning to hope that we aim for that draft pick.
Did you see the other thread where we were discussing the odds of getting a good player based on pick? I forget which one of the rant :) threads it is in, but I posted links to a couple of efforts to analyze your chances of getting a good player based on what pick you have.

I don't think that's the solution because it's just too iffy, but I guess I should save that discussion for the thread I'm thinking of.


I'm glad to see you take my thoughts the way you did. It comes off as some vendetta online or some personal war by me, but I don't mean it like that. I'm just frustrated by the emotions fans put into a practical decision, as well as TPTB perhaps caving to that emotion.

Things weren't going great, I won't argue that. But clearly they could get worse, and have.

There are TONS of players I would trade Jackson for, I was never in the keep him no matter what camp, he's my fave. I just didn't hate him and I wouldn't move him for a bucket of balls. Same with Al, and early on it even looked like Murph was fitting his role better than Al had been.

But now you can see that you could do worse than Al's defense or Al's scoring.


Hell, can I please get Powell back for Ike. I'm not sold on that portion even after seeing all of his game. Early on his ability to get into the post sold me even though I didn't have a problem with Josh's game at all. But now I think Josh looks like the smarter post player.


You know where I will cast blame on Jackson? For pulling that stupid gun out and creating all this mess. If he had just got on his cell and called the cops, maybe told his boys to get in the car and get out of there, then you wouldn't have a court case and nearly the backlash.

Jack could take the stance of innoncent guy attacked who tried to do the right thing instead of a guy who was willing to mix it up a bit if he felt challenged (think Marty in Back to the Future :) ).

If he does the right thing then maybe there is no trade and maybe we see some better basketball right now and are able to enjoy the team. So he doesn't get a free pass from me just because I don't demonize him.

Shade
03-08-2007, 02:02 PM
Btw, a lot of Golden State fans have been calling for Al to be traded for a while now.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2007, 02:09 PM
C'mon now, Seth. Let's not resort to misrepresenting numbers here. Jack shot 40%, not 50%+. 40% is still pretty good, but I'm sure he'll have more than his fair share of 30-35% shooting game to negate that.
Adj FG% isn't a misrepresentation. It's what says that Reggie was a great shooter rather than just average (47% not adjusting for 3's, doesn't blow people away).

Jack was 6-15, but 4 of 9 from 3. That is equal to 16 points on 15 shots, the same as if he had shot 53% from 2. Do you not understand what adjusted FG% means? Of course it counts. It means you scored 53% of the total possible points you could have had if you shot only 2 pt FGs.

40% from 2 = 12 points, not 16. If JO goes 6-15 it's not the same as if REGGIE MILLER (since you hate Jack) goes 6-15 but 4-9 from 3.

And 53% ADJ on a regular basis (obviously something Jack doesn't do) would put you in the top 30 next to guys like Gasol and Tony Parker, so it's better than okay. So he had a good night, not just average. Not great, but good.



This is NOT the same as Points Per Shot which includes FTMs too, meant to account for a players ability to draw FTAs as well as his shooting.

Naptown_Seth
03-08-2007, 02:23 PM
Hell, if that's how you feel, maybe you think we should have kept Ron-Ron? After all, he's better than Al and Jack combined.
If he hadn't gone to the press and demanded a trade because he wanted more touches. That's when he lost me. Up to that point I was firmly behind Ron and his game, inconsistant as his offense could be at times. He forced the action and drew FTAs, he helped make something out of broken plays.


Al and Jack both could be disruptive. Al for how he handled his role in the offense, Jack for how he handled his frustration, especially when dealing with Rick. Jack could flake out in games and make clearly dumb plays, but most of the time he brought solid, functional play to his role.

My complaint always was that people treated Jack's negatives as equal to his positives, and that wasn't true. The team would have been much worse if that were the case.

There was room to improve the SG position, just as you could improve the PG spot now. But there was also a lot of room to make it worse. That's why I was against a RASH decision.

And if Jack gets convicted the Pacers could have dropped his contract and cleared some more space toward getting under the cap. Instead they just discarded all the headway they had made in that area (which still wasn't sub-cap, but was getting closer) AND didn't improve anything while doing that.

RAY ALLEN for Al and Jack, that would have helped more. Tins and Jack for Andre Miller, that would have helped more.

Far better options were out there than this one. To me this is a deal that TPTB look at and say "nah, we might as well limp along as is than do that". More so considering that this wasn't the trade deadline yet. Double that considering that teams' outlooks on trades change once they see where they are drafting.


Why make a MID-SEASON deal if it doesn't make you better this season? Otherwise deal in the summer instead. No need to rush to do something you won't see results on for a year. You know the Jack trial doesn't go until after the trade deadline at least, so maybe work the market for something better than what they SETTLED for.

They were MORE PATIENT WITH RON, and the dude was sitting out after acting up for the umpteenth time. They passed on mediocre offers, waited and waited and waited.

Heck, they took more time GETTING AL than they did dumping him. His trade time (from "announcement" on WTHR to actually joining the team) almost lasted longer than his regular season playing time.

So it was patience, patience and then suddenly "HURRY UP, I JUST HEARD DUNLEAVY IS ON THE MARKET!!! IT'S LIKE FREE ICE CREAM! RUN!" Seems foolish to me.

Hicks
03-08-2007, 02:28 PM
So clearly Al and Jack were great for us and idiot Walsh and his little buddy Bird just made a dumb trade, right?

Shade
03-08-2007, 03:21 PM
RAY ALLEN for Al and Jack, that would have helped more. Tins and Jack for Andre Miller, that would have helped more.

Can you prove that either of those offers was on the table? Because I find it hard to believe we would pass on either of those.

Jack's trade value was virtually nil. GS only took him because we agreed to take both of their bad contracts. They only really wanted Al.

We did the trade to get Ike Diogu and get rid of Al and Jack, both of whom were supposedly locker room cancers. Simple as that. Not that I agree with it (I don't), but that's why the trade went down.

Al and Jack suck. Murph and Dun just suck more.

CableKC
03-10-2007, 02:45 AM
:bump: The Ws have won 3 straight since they have had a healthy lineup of Baron/JRich/SJax/Harrington/Biedrins/Monta/Barnes/Pietrus.

Its amazing what a healthy lineup can do.

Arcadian
03-10-2007, 03:19 AM
The Pacers weren't that good with Al and Jackson. I realize that compared to now that seems like a great team but it was still a first round loss team. I don't mind trading average players to try something different and in reality Jackson had to go his relationship to the fans was toxic.

denyfizle
03-10-2007, 04:15 AM
I agree with the previous post but I can't stand knowing we took back 2 bad salaries in Murphy and Dundun. We could've gotten a more decent trade than this. Philly wouldn't take JAX, Tins, AL, Runi for AI??? I just hope we find a way to move these two soft players for draft picks or something. I'd rather watch us rebuild than cheer for this bunch.

CableKC
03-10-2007, 09:28 AM
I agree with the previous post but I can't stand knowing we took back 2 bad salaries in Murphy and Dundun. We could've gotten a more decent trade than this. Philly wouldn't take JAX, Tins, AL, Runi for AI??? I just hope we find a way to move these two soft players for draft picks or something. I'd rather watch us rebuild than cheer for this bunch.
Yes....I would have taken Dre Miller, Expiring Contracts and the additional 2007 1st round Draft picks over SJax, Harrington, Tinsley and Sarunas for Iverson.

For the Sixers....they wanted to rebuild and they wouldn't have wanted what we could have offered. Now the Sixers are on the right path to rebuilding the team. When you look at what the Sixers are now....adding those headaches would have ruined it.

Unclebuck
03-10-2007, 09:43 AM
I always find it "interesting" when some of you suggest - we could have made a better deal for Al and Jax. Really? Prior to the trade I didn't think there was a team in the NBA who would have taken Jax off our hands - at any price. No team was going to trade us draft picks and expiring contracts for him. No team was going to trade any of their players that they really wanted to keep.

So what did the Pacers have to do to get rid of Jax. They had to include Harrington, they had to agree to take a terrible contract (Murphy) another very questionable contract (Dunleavy). I think the Pacers fought to have Ike included (a player who 12 months ago was untouchable). As I posted about 20 minutes after the trade became known, the key player in the whole trade will be Ike Diogu. 3 or 4 years from now when judgment is rendered on this trade - it will be judged based upon how Ike has developed.

What I just typed in this post was the prevailing wisdom for a few weeks after the trade among Pacers fans, but lately there has been quite a bit of - "we could have gotten more" type posts - that and "wow why did the Pacers think Dun and Murphy were any good to begin with". Believe me they never thought they were that good. Believe me, the TPTB knew the contracts were bad. Trust me, Bird and Walsh aren't surprised by Murph's or Dun's play at all. But they had to get rid of Jackson - and this was the only way to do that.

HOOPFANATIC
03-10-2007, 12:00 PM
But they had to get rid of Jackson - and this was the only way to do that.

So after all of the time the Pacers took last year trying to trade Artest for someone they actually wanted, and still got burned, they turned around and picked up two huge contracts, gave up their summer saver, Harrington. All in an effort to get rid of Jax and pick up an undersized power forward.

If that is true we have some of the worst basketball minds in the league.

I do believe they thought Dunleavy and Murphy were shooters, just like Bird said. Personally I don't think the trade was so much about Jax than about Al not complementing JO. Al was thought to be a competent rebounder, but he still is hovering around six a game. Murphy averaged a double double, perfect fit. I feel Dunleavy and Jax were simply throw- ins. Dunleavy hated in S.F, Jax hated in Indy,swap the two, besides Dunleavy is a better shooter!:confused: I'm not seeing much from Ike, and just like I said with Sarunas, being a Euro point, where are all the other 6-8 power forwards out there????

Unclebuck
03-11-2007, 10:29 PM
Jax just got thrown out of the game. He threw the ball in the direction of the ref.

I was watching the game - the Blazers broadcast and one of the announcers said and I quote, "that is the Indiana Pacers coming out of him"

Hicks
03-11-2007, 11:28 PM
I was watching the game - the Blazers broadcast and one of the announcers said and I quote, "that is the Indiana Pacers coming out of him"

:puke:

If ever there was anything to symbolize why I'm glad he and Artest are gone.....

I don't care if the GS players are overpaid and mediocre for the next decade, if we'd had them the past 4 years we'd be better off in ways we can only imagine off the court. I know that still isn't fun, but damn it, I hate our image. Hate it.

bnd45
03-13-2007, 12:32 AM
Dallas' streak coming to an end tonight. Warriors up 29 after 3. When completely healthy and at home, the Warriors are a really good team.

Kstat
03-13-2007, 12:35 AM
Golden State is spanking Dallas worse than Dallas spanked LA last night.

Unclebuck
03-13-2007, 07:32 AM
Dallas' streak coming to an end tonight. Warriors up 29 after 3. When completely healthy and at home, the Warriors are a really good team.

I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.

bnd45
03-13-2007, 03:29 PM
I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.

UB, I watch most of their games and it's amazing how different of a team they are at home as compared to the road. They really feed off of the crowd, which is desperate for some success. Full roster + home court = legit team.

Romsey31
03-13-2007, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't read too much into the game last night. "it was just one of those games" But yes the Warriors do have some talent. Their starting backcourt is probably the most talented in the NBA and then when you have Ellis coming off the bench - that is perhaps the most talented trio as a group in the NBA.

The Warriors play well at the end of every year.

Unclebuck
03-13-2007, 05:10 PM
When you are a horrible defensive team like the Warriors - they aren't going to be a good road team. You have to be a good rebounding and defensive team to excel on the road.

bnd45
03-23-2007, 11:12 PM
Jack just got tossed in the 1st quarter of a very entertaining game between them and the Wiz. (37-35 Wiz after 1) He got called for a foul up by half court and would not stop b******* about the call. That's 2 ejections as a Warrior for Mr. Jackson. That + a 25 point Pacer win = a good night.

Los Angeles
03-23-2007, 11:15 PM
Jack just got tossed in the 1st quarter of a very entertaining game between them and the Wiz. (37-35 Wiz after 1) He got called for a foul up by half court and would not stop b******* about the call. That's 2 ejections as a Warrior for Mr. Jackson. That + a 25 point Pacer win = a good night.

Don't miss it one bit.

I can honestly say that I enjoy this Pacer team more, 11 game losing streaks and all. :nod:

Naptown_Seth
03-24-2007, 03:29 AM
Jax just got thrown out of the game. He threw the ball in the direction of the ref.

I was watching the game - the Blazers broadcast and one of the announcers said and I quote, "that is the Indiana Pacers coming out of him"
Argh. I like how the guy who helped give the Pacers that rep is now viewed as a guy tainted by the Pacers. :rolleyes:

This is the exact reason they wanted to move him, he can't control his emotions and takes things way too personally.


Of course the Warriors still won and continue to be better since the trade. I can accept that on nights when the Pacers thump a playoff team.


Personally I don't think the trade was so much about Jax than about Al not complementing JO
That was always my view as well. Murph fit the role they were pushing Al into better than Al himself did.

Then they wanted Ike for Powell since they were already talking to GS about Al (who GS wanted last summer which made them first on the list of teams to call) and to get that done they had to take on Dun's failing shot and larger contract.

Sure they liked that Jack took some PR problems with him when he left, but I think they were trying to make a basketball trade too.

I just think that perhaps the Jack PR thing forced them along quicker than they normally would have gone. But I think Al's attitude (remember he got benched to start the 2nd half of a game shortly before the trade) toward his role moved the situation into "time to trade" much like Ron's demands last year did.



The Warriors play well at the end of every year.
Not last year. That's why they have the longest streak of missed playoff seasons right now. They went 10-20 to end the year, including a 9 game losing streak from March until the 2nd week of April.

This was a team that was 17-14 going into January. They went 17-34 after that point.


Anyway, right now they are 4-2 in March vs playoff teams, and both of those losses were games where they let the other team off the hook. Nellie's tech vs WSH (after the foul no less) and then having Utah down going into the 4th only to let them back in it with 2 blocked shots and an offensive foul (and scores at the other end after each of these).

Jack tossed or not, GS is playing better ball than they were before the trade.

Unclebuck
03-24-2007, 10:30 AM
Jcskosn got thrown out again last night in the Wizards game.

The reason the Warriors are playing well right now has almost nothing to do wuth Al and Jax. Baron Davis and Jason Richardson are healthy. And when those two guys are healthy, they can be the best backcourt in the NBA if they play smart.

JB's Breakout Year
03-24-2007, 10:35 AM
Jcskosn got thrown out again last night in the Wizards game.

The reason the Warriors are playing well right now has almost nothing to do wuth Al and Jax. Baron Davis and Jason Richardson are healthy. And when those two guys are healthy, they can be the best backcourt in the NBA if they play smart.
Wow. Jackson continues to amaze me. You'd think at some point in time it would sink in. I thought the same thing with Artest. Not yet, I guess. Man I am glad Jackson is no longer a Pacer.

Seed
03-24-2007, 12:37 PM
Wow. Jackson continues to amaze me. You'd think at some point in time it would sink in. I thought the same thing with Artest. Not yet, I guess. Man I am glad Jackson is no longer a Pacer.
Dang.. 2 ejections already.
Just the thought of 2 expolsive guys like Artest and Jax in the same starting lineup looks kinda crazy now, doesn't it?
Imagine being a Ref when Tins, Jax, Ron-Ron, DH are on the court. Not the world's favorite job..

owl
03-24-2007, 03:17 PM
Wow. Jackson continues to amaze me. You'd think at some point in time it would sink in. I thought the same thing with Artest. Not yet, I guess. Man I am glad Jackson is no longer a Pacer.


The Pacers did not make a mistake in trading him away. The record may not reflect it but this team will be better off in the long run.

Elgin56
03-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Jcskosn got thrown out again last night in the Wizards game.

The reason the Warriors are playing well right now has almost nothing to do wuth Al and Jax. Baron Davis and Jason Richardson are healthy. And when those two guys are healthy, they can be the best backcourt in the NBA if they play smart.


SHHH! Someone will get their feelings hurt.

Lord Helmet
03-24-2007, 07:58 PM
What about Sarunas? I'd say he's been a major part of the Warriors recent success.....


:devil:

Seed
03-25-2007, 03:54 AM
What about Sarunas? I'd say he's been a major part of the Warriors recent success.....


:devil:

He was quoted yesterday saying he will not be playing for GS next year. Said he's getting paid too much for being a 3rd string PG... He also mentioned he wants to continue elsewhere in the NBA, rather than go back to Europe.

Shade
03-25-2007, 04:20 AM
He was quoted yesterday saying he will not be playing for GS next year. Said he's getting paid too much for being a 3rd string PG... He also mentioned he wants to continue elsewhere in the NBA, rather than go back to Europe.

So, then, he wants the pay of a 3rd string PG as well? :shrug: Because that's all he is.

Kstat
03-25-2007, 06:48 AM
He was quoted yesterday saying he will not be playing for GS next year. Said he's getting paid too much for being a 3rd string PG... He also mentioned he wants to continue elsewhere in the NBA, rather than go back to Europe.

Ok, now he's just being a baby.

This is two struggling teams in the same year that he can't play for. Either quit crying or go back to Europe.

Seed
03-25-2007, 06:55 AM
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/16966792.htm

"He just wants to play, just wants to compete," said Warriors forward Al Harrington, who played in Indiana with Jasikevicius. "He's good enough to play at this level, and he just wants his opportunities. We all feel that way, especially when you think about where he came from -- he was the best player over there. To come here and not be able to contribute the way he knows he can, I know he's very frustrated. But he's a hard worker and a good guy and he'll get his chance."

Kstat
03-25-2007, 07:08 AM
He's had opportunities. He wants a 3rd and 4th opportunity.

BlueNGold
03-25-2007, 08:21 AM
It should be clear to everyone now that Sarunas' game did not translate well to the faster pace of the NBA. His success in one or two games in the Olympics against the likes of Marbury (who does not defend) led many of us to believe he was the next Steve Nash while he was really the next Steve Alford.

Seed
03-25-2007, 09:38 AM
He's had opportunities. He wants a 3rd and 4th opportunity.
He never had an opportunity to play PG for 20 min a game over 10 consecutive games in this league. The effects of continuity and confidence are not to be underestimated. Take a look at Quis this season. What was he contributing before the trade? Less than Sarunas in all offensive aspects. But once he got some confidence and several consecutive games with 20 min or so, we started seeing another Quis. I don't know where Saras will play next year. What I do know is that he's not Nash niether Alford, but somewhere in between.

ajbry
03-25-2007, 01:29 PM
The reason the Warriors are playing well right now has almost nothing to do wuth Al and Jax.

Please, do yourself a favor, and read these articles:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/23/SPG8SOQGTA1.DTL

http://www.examiner.com/a-617971~Note_to_Warriors_fans__Don_t_forget_Mr__Jac kson.html


Just a small sampling. Besides, Nellie has called him his second most-dominant player. His performance in his last few games has been relatively pedestrian, but his leadership (holding the team meeting w/ Baron) and intensity has provided a lot in lieu of his subpar performances. He's injured anyway, but he continues to fight through it.

I'm definitely looking forward to see the Kobe / Jack matchup tonight. Last time, Kobe was held to 9-23 shooting and 4 turnovers when they played a couple weeks back.


As for Sarunas... he's become quite the cheerleader on the pine and was always supportive of his teammates. Although Nellie doesn't trust him at all, his attitude had seemed to be fine, but apparently Runi feels he deserves better. Should be interesting to see how it transpires.

Naptown_Seth
03-25-2007, 01:43 PM
He never had an opportunity to play PG for 20 min a game over 10 consecutive games in this league.
Why do you think other players get those minutes? How do other players end up getting to be the starting whatever and playing however many minutes? Just all coaches' random choices?

A guy like AJ started ON THE BENCH with 0 minutes last year. How in the world did he move to starting PG by the end of the year. The COACH was the one who wasn't playing him to start the season, so it wasn't favoritism.

And now Saras has just on bad luck alone run into another situation where no one will give him a "fair" chance?

Sorry, but last I checked most players have to EARN their 10 games starting at PG for 20 mpg, they don't just get handed the keys. In fact if anyone was handed the keys it was Saras when he started his rookie year ahead of AJ on the PG depth chart.

He had MORE chances to take over Tinsley's role than AJ started with that year, but AJ still went past him. All he had to do was deliver enough at BOTH ends of the court.



Let me guess, Ron just needs one more FAIR chance to show he's not a problem player. So far the coaches have held him down and made him into what he is, but if only that right situation would come along he would suddenly be a lot different.

Seed
03-25-2007, 02:31 PM
Why do you think other players get those minutes? How do other players end up getting to be the starting whatever and playing however many minutes? Just all coaches' random choices?

There's no reciepe.. I just gave the example of Marquis, who surely didn't earn more PT than Sarunas, but was given an opportunity after the trade. Or you can take for example a guy who played together with Saras in Maccabi, Anthony Parker, who was given an instant place in the Raptors starting lineup. I'm also saying some players can show what they are made of only after they are allowed some consistency.



A guy like AJ started ON THE BENCH with 0 minutes last year. How in the world did he move to starting PG by the end of the year. The COACH was the one who wasn't playing him to start the season, so it wasn't favoritism.

I was very impressed by AJ's attitude last year and the way he won his place. As for Saras, he was never given a real chance at PG with Rick. Being a 'defense first' coach, he very quickly switched Saras to SG. We all remember what happened then - misearble performances, and all confidence lost, rookie wall.. This year the story repeated. Saras gave some good games, but got no consistency whatsoever.



And now Saras has just on bad luck alone run into another situation where no one will give him a "fair" chance?

Hmm actually yes.. GS is trying to develop Monta as a future PG, and give him every possible minute on the court when Baron is out.. I agree Nellie doesn't trust Sarunas. What I can't figure out is why they didn't trade him before the dealine. There were multiple reports about 2 interested teams - CLE, DET. Could it be that the Pacers had some kind of quiet agreement with GS not to trade the players this year to one of the rivals in the east?

NPFII
03-26-2007, 10:23 AM
Why do you think other players get those minutes? How do other players end up getting to be the starting whatever and playing however many minutes? Just all coaches' random choices?


Saras came in to Indiana as a 2-time European champion, MVP of the Final Four, at the top of his game and at the peak of his career.

He was regarded as a superstar, and thought he'd get a chance to prove it and guess what - he did.

Last year, game 2 of the season vs Miami, Pacers up by 1, 20 secs to go. Saras nailed the game sealer while Tinsley was pouting on the bench.

He should've been made the starting PG right there and then.

Fast forward about 20 games later. Saras was playing decent (some would even call it very good) backup minutes to Tinsley. Hitting 3's, sparking the 2nd unit, actually making David Harrison look good, etc. The whole Ron Artest thing blows up. Tinsley goes down with an injury. Saras get's the starting role at Seattle. 14 points, 11 assists, 7 rebs, 1 TO. However, the team loses. Next game (vs Washington, I think) AJ gets the starting role and Saras is a backup SG for the 1st time in his life. That's it. 1 game as a starter, and a great performance (near tripple-double) earned him the relegation. From then on Saras was never the same.

The guy came in, made the most out of his few opportunities, but never received a fair and consistent treatment from Carlisle.

I can't help but wonder what would've happened if Carlisle had treated Saras like Bird wanted him to. He would've been the starting PG from the 3rd game of the season. I'm guessing Ron Artest wouldn't have left, and the Pacers would've been a better team and probably made it out of the 1st round last year, at least.

Today, Saras is done. He's still a genius, but the passion isn't what it was, and he'll never get the opportunity again, and it's a shame. I said it the day he signed in Indy, and yesterday I read that he finally agrees with me - bottom line - he should've chosen Cleveland.

Naptown_Seth
03-26-2007, 02:10 PM
From then on Saras was never the same.
In other words, mentally weak. Why didn't AJ give up when he was asked to go back to the bench to make room for an unproven player? Why did AJ play the best ball of his life a few months after that?

Everyone else hits the wall, goes in slumps, or even more likely the league gets the book on them if they are new. But not Saras, he was just ruined by being asked to come off the bench some more, a request that had nothing to do with needing bench points, better defense from the starting PG or a guy that could get the ball over the HC line consistantly.

Nope, just a coach trying and capable of ruining an "MVP". Yes, that version makes a lot more sense, especially MVP tough leaders that go into a shell the minute the coach asks them to do something they don't like.

Remember how Reggie folded under Brown's constantly yelling at him, even though Reggie was doing all the right things. Yeah, neither do any of us. (story told by former Pacer Eddie Johnson who saw it firsthand at practices).



he should've chosen Cleveland.
I agree. The Pacers could have used the 4 free wins every season and Mel Mel would have had a field day.

Kstat
03-26-2007, 02:27 PM
He wouldn't be playing in Cleveland right now, either.