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Jetman
01-23-2007, 08:29 AM
I never get to watch any games living out of the country, however I noticed some familiar and interesting box score stats from last nights Pacer and GS games.

Rebounding. the number one rebounding team in the league by far has been the GSW's. However, without Murphy/Dunleavy, they get creamed on the board by the lakers.

The Pacers kill the Bulls on the boards, (how often does that happen????), and since we win what turned out to be a relatively close game, that was the difference in the game.

Jackson had a very familiar stat line
4-13 shooting, in 35 minutes, only 3 rebounds

Harrington, having some serious fun on a great shooting nite, is way too busy chucking to be bothered with getting a rebound, in 43 minutes he snags one.

between that dynamic duo, Jackson, Harrington, they have more turnovers than rebounds.

Goldenstate Fans, I am sure that thier having fun is more important to you than actually winning games.

effort and intelligence always beats athletisicism.

SweetNSourPork
01-23-2007, 08:36 AM
well.. Dunleavy and Murphy's "effort and intelligence" didn't exactly help Golden State win games while they were there.

Hicks
01-23-2007, 10:32 AM
well.. Dunleavy and Murphy's "effort and intelligence" didn't exactly help Golden State win games while they were there.

Because their pieces didn't fit like ours do. And we have that O'Neal guy.

andreialta
01-23-2007, 11:04 AM
exactly, ive seen all the games, and the Jermaine O'neal factor is really big as those 2 smart guys Murphleavy could play off him and not rely on perimeter players making the plays for them.

I still think Indiana got the better trade

Roferr
01-23-2007, 11:08 AM
I never get to watch any games living out of the country, however I noticed some familiar and interesting box score stats from last nights Pacer and GS games.

Rebounding. the number one rebounding team in the league by far has been the GSW's. However, without Murphy/Dunleavy, they get creamed on the board by the lakers.

The Pacers kill the Bulls on the boards, (how often does that happen????), and since we win what turned out to be a relatively close game, that was the difference in the game.

Jackson had a very familiar stat line
4-13 shooting, in 35 minutes, only 3 rebounds

Harrington, having some serious fun on a great shooting nite, is way too busy chucking to be bothered with getting a rebound, in 43 minutes he snags one.

between that dynamic duo, Jackson, Harrington, they have more turnovers than rebounds.

Goldenstate Fans, I am sure that thier having fun is more important to you than actually winning games.

effort and intelligence always beats athletisicism.

I noticed the exact stats and had the same thoughts about them. I didn't want to make a post about ex-Pacers but since you did, I'll second it.

Roferr
01-23-2007, 11:11 AM
well.. Dunleavy and Murphy's "effort and intelligence" didn't exactly help Golden State win games while they were there.

I still think that was a case of Murph and Dun tuning out the fans and vice-versa after a few years of mediocrity at the best. The change of surroundings are probably beneficial for all that was involved. I won't remember or recall that Dun is a #3 pick, I'll just look for slightly better than average play and won't be disappointed.

DaSMASH
01-23-2007, 11:14 AM
Very good, observant post Jetman!

Harrrington and Jackson are all about offense and sportscenter highlights. In other words to these two "the game can't be fun if its played with some structure". The individual talents of each player are tested in the type of game the Pacers coaching staff want to play.

I too have watched both IND/GST games since the trade. The significant, telling stat comes in the Win-Loss area. Pacers 1-1, GST 0-2.

Had Al Harringtons 6'9", 250lbs body been crashing the boards for offensive rebound-putbacks he would have led the Pacers in scoring and probably an All star birth. His game is about glitz and what he percives he is all about. I now have my doubts if Al has retained anything that he was taught when he was a rookie. Steven Jackson is a chinese firedrill 90% of the time, the other 10% is jawing with refs and his head coach. This guy refuses to play with the god given talent he possesses. Is it any wonder that San Antonio let him walk. Stevens game is a rebound an assist and an attitude away from being something special. Playing under Nellie will definitely challange each of these guys to play to a game pace that both will eventually like.

Now lets talk about Mr. Jasikevicius. This is what happens when you send someone who is clearly not a great judge of talent out to scout. Sure Sarunas was a "legend" in the Euro leauge...but what is the Euro leauge?

This was a leauge that played 35 games in a season, with a 3 point line that was 2 feet closer then the NBA's Sometimes the 24 inches DOES make a difference, obviously. In the NBA you also have to play something that closely looks like defense. Watching him play makes you understand why no one drafted him to begin with. We were lucky to get what we could from GST becasue he would have surely used his player option to leave next year.

Golden State got what they needed, I think. Actually they got what they deserved.

Now for the Pacers side of the trade.

Troy Murphy will move into the starting lineup and average a double, double. He will replace Jeff Foster who clearly has no shooting touch beyond 5 feet, and I'm being generous. Murphys game is a hustle type of game, much like Austin Croshere, but with Murphy there is a difference...he wasn't the star at Norte Dame. Troy will open up O'Neal in the post, that is if Jermaine ever sets his big butt down there and quit taking 15 to 17 foot jumpers.

Mike Dunleavy has the DUKE pedigree and here in the land of Indiana University, you have to apreciate a player that knows how to play the RIGHT way and will PLAY the right way. Mike will do all the little things that Harrington and Jackson were capable of doing, but would not do. He tracks down rebounds, passes the ball with a purpose, helps on defense and shoots with a decent stroke. Many of these little things I'm talking about will manifest itself into wins. When reading the disapointment of the GST fans remeber that the style of play has to fit the player for the player to thrive. Carlise's style will make an even better player of MDJ.

Ike Diogu is raw, but has tools similar to Jermaine. He can post, block shots and is fearless underneath the basket. Give this guy some time to adjust, and once he adjusts and does his homework will be the best part of this trade in the long run.

Anything that you read written by ANY GST fan will of course bash Murphy and Dunleavy. Try to understand that when you do not make the Playoffs for 13 straight years its more because your front office has no clue on how to put a team together, not because the players can't play.

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Dr. Goldfoot
01-23-2007, 11:42 AM
It should be noted that although we are 1-1 since the trade and GS is 0-2. The quality of opponents isn't exactly the same. We lost to the Knicks at home and nearly lost a huge lead to the Bulls at home. The Warriors lost to the Cavs in OT after leading by 18 at halftime and nearly pulled one off against the Lakers at the Staples center. It's also only two games. Not to mention , both Al (22.0PPG,6.5RPG,3.0 APG,3.0SPG) & Jack (21.0PPG,5.0RPG,4.0APG,3.0SPG) are looking pretty good to Warrior fans who weren't getting anywhere near that kind of production from Dunleavy and Murphy.

It looks like the trade may have benefits for both teams and most players involved. The one exception is Sarunus Jasikevicous. There is no added pressure to keep in him the lineup out in Oakland. His numbers thru two games mirror those he accumulated here in Indiana, but in the first game Baron Davis sat and the second he got 11 minutes. They're pretty well stocked at the 1 & 2 with Davis, Jackson and Ellis. Pietrus will also see some time at the two and with Richardson coming back it looks like Runi is the odd man out.

ALF68
01-23-2007, 12:42 PM
Man, this team is now fun to watch play, what a difference. No more Jack firing up clankers early and not rebounding. It is obvious that Tins will only hurt this team with his style of play and needs to be moved. I do agree with the poster who said that Foster can now be used in a trade to get a pg more suitable for this type of a team, however if Murphy goes down, that would be a big problem.


For those couple of posters,(fanboys of Jack), who have been crying about the trade and how the Pacers got scr#$#d in this trade, I say, take a breath and watch how a TEAM plays TEAM BALL, and who knows maybe they will learn to appreciate how players are supposed to conduct themselves. I know that I will now be attending more games and I think some of the other fans who have been staying away will now return, contrary to one poster's theory, that it is all about winning at all cost.

Jetman
01-23-2007, 12:43 PM
what i thought was good from our side was not that we are 1-1 and them 0-2, was rather how many times have i read, because I rarely get to see a game, comments on how our giving up so many rebounds, especially on the offensive glass, killed us and lost us the game,
if the new guys enjoy getting rebounds more than complaining about their role and touches, that will be something that we haven't had enough of in a while, especially if they can score some.

it is just a couple of games, but we will see if this is a trend that continues....

ajbry
01-23-2007, 01:26 PM
I too have watched both IND/GST games since the trade. The significant, telling stat comes in the Win-Loss area. Pacers 1-1, GST 0-2.

Judging the trade based on the first two games is absurd. Combined with the fact that the Warriors have been right there at the end, against two elite teams, especially when Baron was out for the first one.

Seeing Al's performance last night makes this trade seem even more in the Warriors favor. Once Jack and Al get better acclimated to their teammates and the whole style of play, I believe Golden State will be a threat.

Additionally, ALF68, next time you'd like to take shots at people, state their actual names. Don't beat around the bush - if I wanted some vague details about team ball in the modern NBA, I'd talk to my dad, an old-school Celtics fan.

croz24
01-23-2007, 01:39 PM
sure al had a good performance last night in the scoring department, but did you notice how many rebounds he pulled down? that's what i thought. or did you notice how badly as a team the warriors were outrebounded? you have to think that if al gave any sort of effort to grab just 2 or 3 more boards, the warriors would have won. it's the incredibly lazy nature of al and sjax that i definitely won't miss.

43 minutes played at the pf/c position with ONE rebound. ONE!!! some game...

Roferr
01-23-2007, 02:25 PM
Judging the trade based on the first two games is absurd. Combined with the fact that the Warriors have been right there at the end, against two elite teams, especially when Baron was out for the first one.

Seeing Al's performance last night makes this trade seem even more in the Warriors favor. Once Jack and Al get better acclimated to their teammates and the whole style of play, I believe Golden State will be a threat.

Additionally, ALF68, next time you'd like to take shots at people, state their actual names. Don't beat around the bush - if I wanted some vague details about team ball in the modern NBA, I'd talk to my dad, an old-school Celtics fan.

You can't judge a trade on two games, for sure. However, in the long run, it will unfold that we robbed Mully.

Jackson shot his usual 4 for 13 and Harrington picks up 1 rebound in 45 minutes. This is probably going to be the norm and it won't take long for the boo birds to come out when they play sub .500 ball.

bnd45
01-23-2007, 02:32 PM
One thing that does stand out is that Harrington, Jack, and Sarunas have all made glaring mistakes late in the 2 losses. Last night Al lost the ball when the Warriors had a chance to go up by 4 by dribbling right into a Laker defender and helped start a Laker break, Jack took a horrible, double pumping 17 footer, and Sarunas made 2 TOs and lost Kobe on a routine back door for a dunk.

During the Cleveland game Jack made some sloppy TOs by trying to do too much and Al was just as sloppy. I'll take good decision makers over athletes every time.

Phildog
01-23-2007, 02:37 PM
Anybody catch DA's interview after the game?

Ms Paetz asked him how it is different having the new guys in from GS....

He paused for a few secs and said "Better Attitudes, better locker rooms....etc."

I thought it was interesting that the locker room was still all a mess. i think Al was really beginning to turn sour with the whole Rick thing.

Shade
01-23-2007, 03:28 PM
I haven't been able to watch them, but I've been following the box scores and Warriors' game threads. So far, it seems like everyone is playing about the same for them. Al is still streaky and can't rebound, Jack is still streaky and chucks like there's no tomorrow, Runi still can't defend my lamp, and Powell is still a solid, servicable player and good defender.

In fact, a few ppl on the RealGM board have nicknamed Jack "Thug Chucker." :laugh:

I saw "athletic, but stupid" more than a few times.

ALF68
01-23-2007, 03:32 PM
Judging the trade based on the first two games is absurd. Combined with the fact that the Warriors have been right there at the end, against two elite teams, especially when Baron was out for the first one.

Seeing Al's performance last night makes this trade seem even more in the Warriors favor. Once Jack and Al get better acclimated to their teammates and the whole style of play, I believe Golden State will be a threat.

Additionally, ALF68, next time you'd like to take shots at people, state their actual names. Don't beat around the bush - if I wanted some vague details about team ball in the modern NBA, I'd talk to my dad, an old-school Celtics fan.

If the shoe fits, then wear the damn thing! I think it is telling that even though your name wasn't mentioned, that you felt that I was taking a shot at you. Go follow your hero and I will support the current Pacer players, see the difference? I have no problem with you following Jack all over the NBA, but don't pretend to be a Pacer fan when you are not. FYI, I don't beat around the bush on any subject, if the fanboy label fits then wear it proudly, and stop insulting other posters for not shareing your delusional opinion of Jackson.

ajbry
01-23-2007, 03:45 PM
If the shoe fits, then wear the damn thing! I think it is telling that even though your name wasn't mentioned, that you felt that I was taking a shot at you. Go follow your hero and I will support the current Pacer players, see the difference? I have no problem with you following Jack all over the NBA, but don't pretend to be a Pacer fan when you are not. FYI, I don't beat around the bush on any subject, if the fanboy label fits then where it proudly, and stop insulting other posters for not shareing your delusional opinion of Jackson.

Are you seriously trying to act like you know me? You know absolutely NOTHING.

I've been a Pacers fan my entire life and always will be, don't come with that **** again.

ALF68
01-23-2007, 05:02 PM
Are you seriously trying to act like you know me? You know absolutely NOTHING.

I've been a Pacers fan my entire life and always will be, don't come with that **** again.

Do I know you? No. The totality of your posts is all I need to determine that you will follow Jack wherever he ends up. Like I said before, I have no problem with you being a supporter of Jack, but it bothers the hell of me when you jump on posters who point out your obsession with Jack. Let me put it to you this way, I thought Sarunas was ok, and I liked him on the team, but do you hear me crying all over this board about him being traded? I believe that all players are expendable and if by trading a certain player it makes the team better than I am all for the trade. Sarunas is not a Pacer anymore and therefore I could care less how he does. Listen I am probably old enough to be your grandpa so put the I don't know nothing card away.

The Pacers are without a doubt better team without Jack, Al, and Sars and it is as simple as that. Again, there is nothing wrong with haveing a favorite player, but when it gets in the way of reality then it becomes offensive to fans who support the whole team and not one or two favorites. :)

Jermaniac
01-23-2007, 08:16 PM
LMAO @ Al and his 1 board. But hey I bet you are having fun Al.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-24-2007, 01:00 AM
It should be noted that although we are 1-1 since the trade and GS is 0-2. The quality of opponents isn't exactly the same. We lost to the Knicks at home and nearly lost a huge lead to the Bulls at home. The Warriors lost to the Cavs in OT after leading by 18 at halftime and nearly pulled one off against the Lakers at the Staples center. It's also only two games. Not to mention , both Al (22.0PPG,6.5RPG,3.0 APG,3.0SPG) & Jack (21.0PPG,5.0RPG,4.0APG,3.0SPG) are looking pretty good to Warrior fans who weren't getting anywhere near that kind of production from Dunleavy and Murphy.


Calling the Cavs and the Lakers 'elite' is a bit of a stretch I think. The only two teams that fit that description right now are Dallas and Phoenix.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-24-2007, 01:57 AM
Then don't call them that. I certainly didn't. The Cav's at home and Lakers on the road is tougher than the Knicks & Bulls at home.

mcampbellarch
01-24-2007, 02:46 AM
I watched both the GS games. My reaction; It wasnt the loss per se. It was how they lost. GS can run and shoot, and when the shots are falling all is well. They were solid, even more than solid at points in those games. But the lack of defense down the stretch, and the lack of points when the other team slowed them down, or the shots werent there and neither was an offensive rebound....well it looked alot like a few of the P's games that left us sickened.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-24-2007, 02:55 AM
Then don't call them that. I certainly didn't. The Cav's at home and Lakers on the road is tougher than the Knicks & Bulls at home.

Yeah im an idiot...sorry, wrong thread, and person...