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Alpolloloco
01-22-2007, 11:23 PM
It looked like Tinsley didn't play because of a sore lower back and some sinitus problems, but at the realgm forum there is a rumor that he might get traded to Seattle http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=615806&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=24

It could be for Watson straight up or for Tinsley & Foster for Ridnour & Swift & Fortson.

What do you guys think of it?

Unclebuck
01-22-2007, 11:25 PM
I pray every night that he is

Hicks
01-22-2007, 11:32 PM
A newbie on RealGM with 7 posts making something up isn't a rumor.

!Pacers-Fan!
01-22-2007, 11:34 PM
Luke Ridnour would fit in soo well in this team...i hope this happens.

BlueNGold
01-22-2007, 11:43 PM
I hope it's true, but there is no way Fortson is coming here. We've been there and done that. Watson would be great. Ridnour would be helpful too.

I don't believe it.

Unclebuck
01-23-2007, 12:01 AM
I read through the thread and the rumor is bogus.

I do however believe there is a decent chance Tinsley will be traded before the deadline and a very good chanc e he'll be traded before next season in fact I'd put the odds of that at about 80%.

But this rumor is bogus. I mean how many trades take place after a game at 10:30 at night.

Anthem
01-23-2007, 12:07 AM
I read through the thread and the rumor is bogus.

I do however believe there is a decent chance Tinsley will be traded before the deadline and a very good chanc e he'll be traded before next season in fact I'd put the odds of that at about 80%.

But this rumor is bogus. I mean how many trades take place after a game at 10:30 at night.
A few.

How many are pegged by RealGM trolls? Absolutely none.

Cobol Sam
01-23-2007, 12:07 AM
I heard that Tinsley, and Murphy are getting traded for Steve Nash and Amare! I heard that just now when I read that sentence out loud.

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-23-2007, 12:38 AM
I've been praying non-stop for two seasons!! @,@ - please trade the Tin man already. The pacers need new life at the point.

GetMoney
01-23-2007, 12:53 AM
never

Naptown_Seth
01-23-2007, 05:50 AM
I heard that Tinsley, and Murphy are getting traded for Steve Nash and Amare! I heard that just now when I read that sentence out loud.
:laugh:

Thank god PD has so many posters grounded in reality. One thing different from the Star is that over there this would turn into a real thing for 7 pages, with about 3-4 posters speaking up against the masses for hyping it.


I love talking Pacers and sharing different opinions, but I do like the discussions to center around reasonable issues.

naptownmenace
01-23-2007, 10:11 AM
:laugh:

Thank god PD has so many posters grounded in reality. One thing different from the Star is that over there this would turn into a real thing for 7 pages, with about 3-4 posters speaking up against the masses for hyping it.


I love talking Pacers and sharing different opinions, but I do like the discussions to center around reasonable issues.

Soooo true.

Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing Jamaal traded. I've been publicly asking for a trade since the end of the 2004 ECF.

Roferr
01-23-2007, 10:37 AM
:laugh:

Thank god PD has so many posters grounded in reality. One thing different from the Star is that over there this would turn into a real thing for 7 pages, with about 3-4 posters speaking up against the masses for hyping it.


I love talking Pacers and sharing different opinions, but I do like the discussions to center around reasonable issues.

Seth, now that Jax is gone, I'm going to have to work on Tins. ;)

Roferr
01-23-2007, 10:51 AM
After the last trade the only impediment that I can see for a chance at the conference finals is Tinsley. We saw what a real pg could do against the Bulls and this was with 3 new players who aren't use to the system. DA accomplished it all through hustle and smart play.

With Murph and Digou on board that pretty well anchors our rebounding allowing Jeff to be packaged with Tins for a decent PG. Their salaries aren't enough to swing a deal for Kidd but maybe a decent PG is hiding in the bushes somewhere. Giving up Foster should tempt some poor-rebounding team to at least think about giving up a PG.

I haven't studied all the rosters to see who is available. I'll leave that up to the GM's on this board, as that is not my forte. However, with a PG such as Ridnour with a salary of less than $3 million this year, surely someone can come up with a package of Foster, Tins and a throw in or two to tempt Seattle to give up Ridnour and a player or two. How about it, you GM's out there? Does it fly?

FlavaDave
01-23-2007, 12:41 PM
Although this is BS, the discontent in Seattle over Ridnour and my displeasure with Tinsley has me praying for a Luke-Jamaal swap.

pwee31
01-23-2007, 12:59 PM
Well if Tinsley is going to get traded, they need to do it before these back/sinus injuries start to repeat themselves.

I do agree with Flava, that Ridnour would be nice since he's been put in the Seattle "doghouse" sorta speak, and is now coming off the bench behind Watson.

I like Ridnour's game, he hustles, can shoot, and passes the ball well. If he can be gotten then get him.

Tinsley seemed uninterested in the Heat game after the trade and then of course he missed the Bulls game. Maybe it's just a bad lil stretch, or maybe the trade is going to get to him and his play.

Mourning
01-23-2007, 01:11 PM
I like Ridnour too and I would have been ok with him coming here pre-trade, but now, not nearly as much. I think we would be getting much mor exploited in the backcourt on the defensive end of the game then I would like.

I would rather have a good shooter with strong defensive skills and decent passing and dribbling (for a PG).

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Naptown_Seth
01-23-2007, 01:12 PM
Soooo true.

Of course, I wouldn't mind seeing Jamaal traded. I've been publicly asking for a trade since the end of the 2004 ECF.
And of course it's not about a JT trade or not, it's about some kid faking a rumor and people's instant acceptance of it as likely truth. It's not that I think it could be so outrageous in terms of the players involved necessarily...though that's the other problem with these things.

If I'm brushing off Peter Vescey then I'm definitely not listening to some new poster at Real GM.

Somebody find me the source that told us about the Al/Jack for Dun/Murph trade 2 days before it happened. That's the guy I'll listen to. Oh yeah, didn't happen.

That's the lesson we should take from Pacer trade rumors, and it's not the only time they've popped up quick like that.



Moving Tinsley - well he's not been at his best IMO and it does seem to be a concern. OTOH you hear Rick discussing him and he sounds extremely pleased with his effort. It's either the greatest whitewashing to the press ever, or he really isn't frustrated with Tins.

DA going near trip-dub last night doesn't help matters with the fans, but come on, DA isn't going to do that normally because he never has, let alone at this age with a bum arm.

But can they make a move that truly helps the team? If it's not a step up to a more efficient guy like Miller then I don't see the point. That's why I shy off of Luke R.

We saw the stats on Tins vs Bibby and they are pretty even at this point. That's the reality of what kind of FG% and A/TO ratio upgrades are out there to be had (not dream choices that salary or situation make impossible).

Dr. Goldfoot
01-23-2007, 01:20 PM
The question I need answered about Ridnour is why did he lose his starting job? Especially to a guy who's making less than 35% of his shots and only 25% of his 3's. He takes good care of the ball according to his assists and turnover numbers. He shoots the three well with the exception of last season. I keep hearing about how much he hustles. Why did he lose his starting job?


It's his defense.

FlavaDave
01-23-2007, 01:25 PM
And of course it's not about a JT trade or not, it's about some kid faking a rumor and people's instant acceptance of it as likely truth. It's not that I think it could be so outrageous in terms of the players involved necessarily...though that's the other problem with these things.

If I'm brushing off Peter Vescey then I'm definitely not listening to some new poster at Real GM.

Somebody find me the source that told us about the Al/Jack for Dun/Murph trade 2 days before it happened. That's the guy I'll listen to. Oh yeah, didn't happen.

That's the lesson we should take from Pacer trade rumors, and it's not the only time they've popped up quick like that.



Moving Tinsley - well he's not been at his best IMO and it does seem to be a concern. OTOH you hear Rick discussing him and he sounds extremely pleased with his effort. It's either the greatest whitewashing to the press ever, or he really isn't frustrated with Tins.

DA going near trip-dub last night doesn't help matters with the fans, but come on, DA isn't going to do that normally because he never has, let alone at this age with a bum arm.

But can they make a move that truly helps the team? If it's not a step up to a more efficient guy like Miller then I don't see the point. That's why I shy off of Luke R.

We saw the stats on Tins vs Bibby and they are pretty even at this point. That's the reality of what kind of FG% and A/TO ratio upgrades are out there to be had (not dream choices that salary or situation make impossible).


I think it all comes down to decision making. Tinsley is historically poor at the end of games and when the opposing PG is on a run. As far as I know (and from what I have seen), Luke is at least a decent decision maker. Decision making and timing can't be captured by stats, but I believe that Luke is the winner here.

Plus, Luke is a far better shooter.

I don't think there is a single thing Tinsley does better than Luke, and Luke improves on most of the areas where Tinsley hurts the team. Luke is undervalued in Seattle. It seems like a near perfect fit.

Mourning
01-23-2007, 01:47 PM
I think Ridnour's defence is worse than Jamaal's, YES, that IS possible. I have seen him a few times this year and I like how he ticks offensively, defensively he's got awfull IMO though.

We could have gone by that pre-trade when we had a little below backcourt with regards to defence (IMO), but now it's well below in several aspects of defence in the backcourt. I like the trade btw, but getting Ridnour would make us to unbalanced. Just my :twocents:.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

CableKC
01-23-2007, 03:45 PM
With Murph and Digou on board that pretty well anchors our rebounding allowing Jeff to be packaged with Tins for a decent PG. Their salaries aren't enough to swing a deal for Kidd but maybe a decent PG is hiding in the bushes somewhere. Giving up Foster should tempt some poor-rebounding team to at least think about giving up a PG.

I haven't studied all the rosters to see who is available. I'll leave that up to the GM's on this board, as that is not my forte. However, with a PG such as Ridnour with a salary of less than $3 million this year, surely someone can come up with a package of Foster, Tins and a throw in or two to tempt Seattle to give up Ridnour and a player or two. How about it, you GM's out there? Does it fly?
Teams that are in the bottom 10 in Total and Offensive Rebounding that could definitely benefit from having Foster in their lineup.

NOTE - To do some comparison....the Pacers are ( #11 ) 41.7 Total RPG / ( #4 ) 12.5 OffRPG

Eastern Confernce Teams:

Toronto - ( #25 ) 39.2 Total RPG / ( #29 ) 9.7 OffRP
Possible PG options - Jose Calderon ( unlikely that Toronto will give him up )

Boston - ( #21 ) 40.6 Total RPG / ( #21 ) 10.7 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Delonte West, Sebastian Telfair, Rajon Rondo ( I don't think that they would be willing to take on Tinsley...but who knows )

Western Confernce Teams:

Memphis - ( #30 ) 38.1 Total RPG / ( #25 ) 10.1 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Damon Stoudamire ( shorter then Tinsley...and is capable of scoring...but does he fit? ), Chucky Atkins and Kyle Lowry ( I don't know if Memphis wants Tinsley )

Minnesota - ( #23 ) 40.3 Total RPG / ( #27 ) 10.0 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Marko Jaric ( defensive Guard that can play the PG spot...is capable of making a 3pt shot...salarywise...a straight up Tinsley for Jaric trade would work....but Minny doesn't need another high paid backup PG since they have Troy Hudson...they would want Foster )

Sacramento - ( #22 ) 40.3 Total RPG / ( #23 ) 10.6 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Bibby ( a better scoring version of Tinsley that is far more clutch but still plays matador defense ), Jason Hart ( who? )

Remaining Bottom 10 teams in Total Rebounding:

Eastern Confernce Teams:

( #29 in Total RPG ) Philidelphia - 38.2 Total RPG
Possible PG options - Andre Miller ( I really doubt that they would take on Tinsley just to get Foster ), Kevin Ollie ( been there..done that ), Louis Williams ( have no clue who this kid is ).

( #27 in Total RPG ) Atlanta - 39.1 Total RPG
Possible PG options - Speedy Claxton ( too injury prone ), Tyronne Lue ( hmmm...is quick as heck and has alot of energy...I have no clue what his defensive skills are...but can definitely hit the 3pt shot if left open...but is only 6 feet tall ), Royal Ivey ( I have no clue what he can do )

( #24 in Total RPG ) Milwaukee - 39.5 Total RPG
Possible PG options - Mo Williams and Earl Boykins ( I doubt that we would trade Foster within the division and Milwaukee would give them up )

Western Confernce Teams:

( #28 in Total RPG ) Portland - 38.6 Total RPG
Possible PG options - Jarrett Jack ( No chance of getting him ), Dan Dickau ( have no clue how much he is worth to Portland )

( #26 in Total RPG ) Seattle - 39.2 Total RPG
Possible PG options - Earl Watson ( defensive minded PG ), Luke Ridnour ( no defense but isn't as selfish )

Remaining Bottom 10 teams that lack Offensive Rebounding:

Eastern Confernce Teams:

( #26 in OffRPG ) Miami - 10.1 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Jason Williams ( can hit the 3pt shot...but I doubt that he would fit ), Gary Payton ( too old )

Western Confernce Teams:

( #30 in OffRPG ) Phoenix - 8.5 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Marcus Banks ( apparently he is the type of PG that you guys wants but doesn't fit with Phoenix ), Leandro Barbosa ( doubtful that Phoenix lets him go )

( #28 in OffRPG ) San Antonio - 9.7 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Beno Udrih ( :shrug: ), Jacque Vaughn ( :shrug: )

( #24 in OffRPG ) LA Clippers - 10.5 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Sam Cassell ( I don't know how much defense Cassell plays...but he can provide solid leadership on/off the court...and can hit the 3pt shot )

( #22 in OffRPG ) La Lakers - 10.7 OffRPG
Possible PG options - Sasha Vujacic ( have no clue what he does :shrug: ), Jordan Farmer ( not starter material )

If I could do a straight up swap...I would trade Tinsley for Jaric...other then that...looking at the list of teams that may want an upgrade in rebounding and the possilbe PGs that they could send back ( I would love Cassell, Dre Miller, Ridnour or Watson...but I doubt that the teams will part with them ).....I have concluded that there are no PGs that I would want in return that would cost us Foster.

Raskolnikov
01-23-2007, 04:29 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_070123.html

How Will New Teammates Affect Tinsley’s Game?


Tuesday, Jan. 23, 2007<hr> <table align="left" width="120"><tbody><tr><td align="left">http://www.nba.com/media/pacers/qod_logo_updated.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table>
Q. Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy are both very good shooters. Everyone speaks about how they will complement Jermaine O'Neal. Jamaal Tinsley however is a drive-and-dish point guard and he has not been able to do that this year and has been made into a jump-shooting point guard. How do you think the increase in shooters and the addition of Danny Granger into the starting lineup, who is another good shooter, will affect Jamaal Tinsley's game? (From Bradley in Dearborn, Mich.)
A. For most of his career, Tinsley has been a guy that only looks to score when he believes that's what the team needs. In the previous lineup, he often was the only player on the floor that could create his own shot in a crunch, so he wound up with more of those opportunities than he probably wanted. From what we've seen of the new lineup to this point, some of that pressure should be alleviated.

With Granger and Mike Dunleavy on the floor, the Pacers now have three players in the lineup that can bring the ball up against pressure or initiate the fast-break. Dunleavy has demonstrated an excellent knack for creating shots either for himself or teammates. Both he and Granger are excellent movement players which makes them more difficult to defend. They rarely offer opponents a stationary target.

Add Marquis Daniels to what amounts to a three-man wing rotation, and the Pacers suddenly have plenty of players that can make things happen with dribble penetration. Murphy presents a big target for kick-out passes and also plays well on the move. All of those factors should allow Tinsley to play a more flow-oriented game.

Beyond all of that, however, Tinsley needs only to watch the video from Monday night's game against Chicago to see what works. Darrell Armstrong showed that playing with passion and energy at both ends of the floor can be contagious. Everything he did, Armstrong did all-out and the team followed his lead. Of course, there are – and have been – very few players in the history of the league who can consistently play with Armstrong's level of energy, so it's a tough comparison to make. The lesson in Armstrong's performance was the impact of effort and positive energy, as well as how a point guard's demeanor often becomes reflected by his teammates.

CableKC
01-23-2007, 04:53 PM
Beyond all of that, however, Tinsley needs only to watch the video from Monday night's game against Chicago to see what works. Darrell Armstrong showed that playing with passion and energy at both ends of the floor can be contagious. Everything he did, Armstrong did all-out and the team followed his lead. Of course, there are and have been very few players in the history of the league who can consistently play with Armstrong's level of energy, so it's a tough comparison to make. The lesson in Armstrong's performance was the impact of effort and positive energy, as well as how a point guard's demeanor often becomes reflected by his teammates.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind having Tinsley sit another game...just to see how well we do without him in the lineup again...I don't know if we will win...cuz DA can only play so long before tiring out.....but I am hoping to get a better sampling of how well the Pacers do with or without Tinsley...at least in terms of energy and ball movement. I just don't know if the difference between a lineup that has Tinsley dominating the ball is better with..or without him.

FlavaDave
01-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Beyond all of that, however, Tinsley needs only to watch the video from Monday night's game against Chicago to see what works. Darrell Armstrong showed that playing with passion and energy at both ends of the floor can be contagious. Everything he did, Armstrong did all-out and the team followed his lead. Of course, there are and have been very few players in the history of the league who can consistently play with Armstrong's level of energy, so it's a tough comparison to make. The lesson in Armstrong's performance was the impact of effort and positive energy, as well as how a point guard's demeanor often becomes reflected by his teammates.


Psssssss.................Jamaal...............wink wink, nudge nudge.............

Los Angeles
01-23-2007, 05:04 PM
Offensive rebounding is one of those ridiculously misleading statistics. The Pacers are #4 in offensive rebounding because we miss more shots than most teams. Off the top of my head I'm willing to bet that Jeff gets 3 of his OR's a game off of his own missed layups.

P.S. don't tell the other teams, if they want to trade for a padded stat, more power to them.

CableKC
01-23-2007, 05:07 PM
Offensive rebounding is one of those ridiculously misleading statistics. The Pacers are #4 in offensive rebounding because we miss more shots than most teams. Off the top of my head I'm willing to bet that Jeff gets 3 of his OR's a game off of his own missed layups.

P.S. don't tell the other teams, if they want to trade for a padded stat, more power to them.
I just went with the single stat that sets Jeff apart from most players...his affect on offensive rebounding. Overall...he should be able to help any team with their rebounding.

storm1015
01-23-2007, 05:08 PM
Psssssss.................Jamaal...............wink wink, nudge nudge.............

Exactly, that was a pretty obvious from the article. Conrad views this the same way most of us do. JT has a great skill set, but what he offers is different from DA.

The Pacers really need a PG who will pressure the ball defensively and hit open shots. The ability to penetrate and dish would be close behind. Scoring is a nice add-on, but not required. JT can do some of these things, but his defense will always be questioned.

I like the fact that Conrad mentioned attitude affecting the rest of the team. This does happen. When JT gets frustrated the team is frustrated. Mostly b/c they hate his decision making when he gets that way, but his energy level can suffer as well.

ALF68
01-23-2007, 05:26 PM
Offensive rebounding is one of those ridiculously misleading statistics. The Pacers are #4 in offensive rebounding because we miss more shots than most teams. Off the top of my head I'm willing to bet that Jeff gets 3 of his OR's a game off of his own missed layups.

P.S. don't tell the other teams, if they want to trade for a padded stat, more power to them.

Don't watch many games, eh? To use a football analogy, offensive rebounds are like recovered fumbles, a second chance to score. Offensive rebounds do not fit the padded stat defintion in any shape or form. Offensive rebounds wear down defenses and slow down their fast break opportunities, and they are crucial to a team's success.

maragin
01-23-2007, 08:13 PM
Off the top of my head I'm willing to bet that Jeff gets 3 of his OR's a game off of his own missed layups.

It would appear that he been working on that facet of his game. (12 of 14 from the field in the last 4 games, 86%)

LosAngeles
01-23-2007, 09:17 PM
Well at least I can stir up the pot. :laugh:

Yes, being in position for a put-back is essential to winning.

But there is a correlation between offensive rebounds and low fg percentage. You have to miss a shot in order to rebound the ball after all.

And regarding jeff, IVe always been a supporter of jeff's. I've also been a supporter of moving him (mostly because I've always valued his talent and felt that we needed a better offensive compliment to Jo).

The tins plus jeff suggestion above is a decent idea.

CableKC
01-23-2007, 09:27 PM
The tins plus jeff suggestion above is a decent idea.
Only if we can make a clear upgrade at the PG spot....otherwise losing Foster isn't worth it.

D-BONE
01-23-2007, 10:02 PM
The Ridnour idea is somewhat attractive. My impression would be based on talent and style it they would be approximately even overall. I actually think Tinsley is slightly better on D from the standpoint of his propensity to get pilfers with quick hands, playing passing lanes, and sneaking up from off the ball. Neither guy is good on the ball period. I think they are both solid as far as passing/playmaking. Ridnour I believe has an edge in shooting as far as offense.

However, you also have to take into account the fit with our current personnel, our approach, and how the player's mentality meshes. Ridnour may work better in terms of skill set and dynamics in the same way many see happening with Dunleavy and Murphy in exchange for Jack and Al. In other words, maybe he would benefit in our system.

Who know just how available he is? Who know just how much value Tins has even packaged with someone else? It's really too early to say definitively the DunDun/Murph move will ultimately go the way many think it will. Although it has been positive so far. But if we talk about an upgrade in to the PG it's got to be judged more that just via a talent comparison. What could any potential new point add in terms of the overall direction/approach we seem to be developing?

skyfire
01-23-2007, 10:08 PM
If we get Ridnour we can get used to getting utterly dominated by Chauncey Billups for as long as Ridnour is a Pacer. I think Billups is one of the players that Tins usually defends with some degree of success.

From the list that CableKC put up, I think Delonte West or Jose Calderon would be the best options for our team, but I think both of them are bordering on untouchable with their recent play for their respective teams.

fleetwood019
01-23-2007, 10:38 PM
Phoenix Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Marcus Banks
6-2 PG from UNLV
4.3 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.3 apg in 10.0 minutes
James Jones
6-8 SF from Miami-Fla.
5.2 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.5 apg in 14.1 minutes
Incoming
Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
12.4 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 6.3 apg in 31.0 minutes
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.3 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.2 apg in 7.5 minutes
Change in team outlook: +5.2 ppg, +2.1 rpg, and +4.7 apg.



Successful Scenario
Due to Indiana and Phoenix being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Phoenix had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Jermaniac
01-23-2007, 10:41 PM
Marcus Banks is going to do nothing but make us worse. I think he is the only person the last 2-3 years to go to the Suns and become a worse offensive basketball player.

fleetwood019
01-23-2007, 10:51 PM
Yeah, but Banks is cheaper, and he brings defence to the point.

Hicks
01-23-2007, 10:52 PM
If we want a PG with D but bad O, we can play Greene more.

Stryder
01-23-2007, 10:58 PM
Sinusitis? This guy has got to be the sickest athletic guy ever.

I understand the sore back, but geeze, one would think his immune system would not be as compromised.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-24-2007, 02:34 AM
All the press releases I read said nothing of sinus problems but that he's been playing with a sore back and was held out by trainers. I actually remember a few games ago he threw a pass the length of the court and was holding his side for the next few plays. I wonder if that is what is finally keeping him out.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 03:31 AM
Offensive rebounding is one of those ridiculously misleading statistics.
Better to pull the bottom 10 in OReb % (total chances of your misses that you pull back down), a stat created because of this specific problem.

wintermute
01-24-2007, 04:55 AM
how about mike james? think t'wolves would swap him for tinsley? i just finished putting up that one in the trade forum :D

Los Angeles
01-24-2007, 02:34 PM
Better to pull the bottom 10 in OReb % (total chances of your misses that you pull back down), a stat created because of this specific problem.

Good point.

Hate to bump an otherwise defunct thread - but this is exactly where you should look for a more valuable team stat.

Counting offensive rebounds as a "total" instead of a percentage is only useful for tracking individual acheivement.