PDA

View Full Version : Q: Why do the Pacers continue to play Jamal Tinsley?



DaSMASH
01-22-2007, 12:18 PM
I’ve asked myself that mind boggling question over and over for the past 3 years. Finally I think I have an answer. I really believe that Tinsley is being showcased for a trade at this point. Certain teams are looking for certain players,Tinsley fits the following type of point guard: slow , fat , immature , can’t shoot worth a lick t, always injured but his momma died so Donnie gave him an extension costing the Pacers 6 million dollars a year until 2011. Now if I sound insensitive to Tinsleys mother dying, :( I’m sorry…but I used that example as something that Tinsley should use as a motivational factor, but as most of us Pacer fans can see…does anything motivate Tinsley ?:confused:
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Unless the Pacers are willing to take on another Bad contract we’re stuck with this guy who clearly gets into mano-on mano confrontations with players that are clearly more skilled then he is. For those of you that thought Jamal had turned the corner a couple of years ago please remember that we had Ron Artest to pick up the defense behind Jamal. Clearly Jamal Tinsley will NEVER be close to being nominated to the all NBA defensive team.
<o:p></o:p>
The Pacers have Darrel Armstrong, Oreion Greene and Keith McCloud backing up Tinsley. Out of the three Darrel Armstrong is the best, but is also the oldest. If we could get one of the following Points who would you choose and how would he fit in with the current Pacers on the roster.
<o:p></o:p>
Realisticly could aquire:
<o:p></o:p>
Andre Miller – Philly
Rajon Rondo – Celtics
Marcus Williams –Nets
Jose Calderon – Raptors :D
Stevie Francis --Knicks ---If wavied, then bought out
Jameer Nelson – Magic :D
Damon Stoudamire -Grizzles
Bobby Jackson -- Hornets
Beno Udrith – Spurs
Juan Dixon – Blazers
Jarrett Jack – Blazers :D
Luke Ridnour -- Sonics :D
Sasha Vujacic -- Lakers
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Jamal Tinsley & Jeff Foster to Portland for Dixon and Maglore works under the CBA
Jamal Tinsley & Jeff Foster to Portland for Jack and Maglore works under the CBA
Jamal Tinsley, Jeff Foster & Marquis Daniels to Seattle for Rashard Lewis, Chris Wilcox & Luke Ridnour..works under the CBA
<o:p></o:p>
Those are just a few trades that work that would benefit both teams. As it stands
<o:p></o:p>
Yeah, Yeah, I hear you….Why do these teams think about or make these deals??….well none of these teams are going to the NBA championships as they stand right now or anytime in the next few years…for any of the teams mentioned above..CHANGE IS GOOD !
<o:p></o:p>

Ragnar
01-22-2007, 12:23 PM
What we need is a new coach who will play our players properly and not try to turn our pg into a sg. You guys would hate Andre Miller after a year of Rick because he is a passer and not a shooter.

FlavaDave
01-22-2007, 12:25 PM
What we need is a new coach who will play our players properly and not try to turn our pg into a sg. You guys would hate Andre Miller after a year of Rick because he is a passer and not a shooter.


What is Rick doing wrong right now? Putting the ball in Tinsley's hands?

Would Tinsley be a better player if Rick didn't let him handle the ball as much?

OakMoses
01-22-2007, 12:46 PM
You guys would hate Andre Miller after a year of Rick because he is a passer and not a shooter.

The Pacers need a PG who doesn't shoot. If you read the forums, almost every poster hates how many shots Tinsley takes. Here's a list of guys I'd rather see shooting than Tinsley: O'Neal, Granger, Daniels, Dunleavy, Murphy, Williams, Diogu, Armstrong. Did I forget anybody? The Pacers have plenty of guys who can make shots, what they need is a PG who can play D and likes to pass. If Andre Miller comes without us giving up Granger or Williams, sign me up.

Cobol Sam
01-22-2007, 12:51 PM
Rick is such a horrible coach that he is averaging 48 wins a season, has been a coach of the year, has coached 2 all star games, and has kept the team in the playoffs through a transition featuring several long term injuries to key players, the retirement of a hall of famer, the largest set of suspensions in league history, and players in the locker room seriously disrupting team chemistry.

My guess is that Tinsley is playing because he is in the top 15 point guards in the NBA, and a key contributer to this team winning basketball games.

OakMoses
01-22-2007, 01:07 PM
Rick is such a horrible coach that he is averaging 48 wins a season, has been a coach of the year, has coached 2 all star games, and has kept the team in the playoffs through a transition featuring several long term injuries to key players, the retirement of a hall of famer, the largest set of suspensions in league history, and players in the locker room seriously disrupting team chemistry.

My guess is that Tinsley is playing because he is in the top 15 point guards in the NBA, and a key contributer to this team winning basketball games.

I agree with you whole-heartedly about Carlisle. Your Tinsley claim is ridiculous. Here's a list.

1. Jason Kidd
2. Chauncy Billups
3. Chris Paul
4. Mike Bibby
5. Stephon Marbury
6. Tony Parker
7. Jason Terry
8. Andre Miller
9. Jason Williams
10. Steve Nash
11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Allen Iverson
13. Devin Harris
14. Shaun Livingston
15. Sam Cassell
16. T.J. Ford
17. Deron Williams
18. Leandro Barbosa

I'd take any of those guys over Tinsley right now.

Evan_The_Dude
01-22-2007, 01:14 PM
I agree with you whole-heartedly about Carlisle. Your Tinsley claim is ridiculous. Here's a list.

1. Jason Kidd
2. Chauncy Billups
3. Chris Paul
4. Mike Bibby
5. Stephon Marbury
6. Tony Parker
7. Jason Terry
8. Andre Miller
9. Jason Williams
10. Steve Nash
11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Allen Iverson
13. Devin Harris
14. Shaun Livingston
15. Sam Cassell
16. T.J. Ford
17. Deron Williams
18. Leandro Barbosa

I'd take any of those guys over Tinsley right now.

You might personally take those guys over Tinsley, but I don't think Leandro Barbosa, Devin Harris (yet), and Jason Williams are realistically better than Tinsley.

FlavaDave
01-22-2007, 01:24 PM
I agree with you whole-heartedly about Carlisle. Your Tinsley claim is ridiculous. Here's a list.

1. Jason Kidd
2. Chauncy Billups
3. Chris Paul
4. Mike Bibby
5. Stephon Marbury
6. Tony Parker
7. Jason Terry
8. Andre Miller
9. Jason Williams
10. Steve Nash
11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Allen Iverson
13. Devin Harris
14. Shaun Livingston
15. Sam Cassell
16. T.J. Ford
17. Deron Williams
18. Leandro Barbosa

I'd take any of those guys over Tinsley right now.



Those are in random order, right?

Cobol Sam
01-22-2007, 01:33 PM
I agree with you whole-heartedly about Carlisle. Your Tinsley claim is ridiculous. Here's a list.

1. Jason Kidd
2. Chauncy Billups
3. Chris Paul
4. Mike Bibby
5. Stephon Marbury
6. Tony Parker
7. Jason Terry
8. Andre Miller
9. Jason Williams
10. Steve Nash
11. Gilbert Arenas
12. Allen Iverson
13. Devin Harris
14. Shaun Livingston
15. Sam Cassell
16. T.J. Ford
17. Deron Williams
18. Leandro Barbosa

I'd take any of those guys over Tinsley right now.

I think my claim about Tinsley is unpopular (as he has supplanted Jackson as the scapegoat), but not ridiculous.

He is #13 among guards in the League in assists
He has a better Assist to turnover ratio than guys you listed:
Mike Bibby
Stephon Marbury
Tony Parker
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Devin Harris
T.J. Ford
Leandro Barbosa

He is #8 among guards in the league in Steals per game
He is #13 among guards in steals to turnover ratio.

His shooting numbers are almost a match for Mike Bibby's, being less than 1% different...
Tinsley shooting 37.7% on 469 attempts
Bibby shooting 38.6% on 570 attempts


Tinsley is unpopular, not untalented.
Tinsley appears laid back, but he doesn't lack significant contribution or dedication.

MagicRat
01-22-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm guessing this will make most of you positively giddy.....

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/SPORTS04/70122033

able
01-22-2007, 01:53 PM
6 out of the 10 shots Tins takes are plays called by the coach.
2 out of 10 are "last second shots" saving us from a TO by nature
1 is a broken play where no other solutions is "at hand"
1 is a "I think I have a better chance myself here"

To bad Al and Jax are gone, now it will all be concentrated on Tinsley, the man who made it his goal to play 82 games this season and thus far is keeping that promise.

Factual posts about Tins are omitted it seems, but sentiments ... oh well.

AesopRockOn
01-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Leandro isn't a PG but he is way better than Jamaal.

FlavaDave
01-22-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm guessing this will make most of you positively giddy.....

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/SPORTS04/70122033



I'll be the first to give Jamaal credit for his willingness to fight through injuries this season. That has been a bright spot, and an encouraging sign.

Cobol Sam
01-22-2007, 02:08 PM
Leandro isn't a PG but he is way better than Jamaal.

Aesop it can be frustrating when Pacers fan start bashing on our own players. I thought Able had a great post that factual evidence is omitted about Tinsley. I mean Shaq isn't a point guard and he is way better than Tinsley. That doesn't mean we can bash Tinsley for not being Shaq right? Nor would it mean we'd want Shaq playing point guard for us.

Come on the guy is playing hard for us. Read my previous post and Able's. There is evidence to suggest Tinsley is an alright basketball player and helps this team.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2007, 02:19 PM
I'll admit Tinsley shooting numbers are atrocious, but in this day and age of the internet you go look up the other points in the league to see his % are not uncommon. What I don't understand is why so many are willing to throw him away. In Rick's first season he was benched for what many assume was insubordination ( I've seen no reports as to why he was actually benched) and he fought his way back into the starting lineup. The next season he lost his job due to injuries and fought his way back into the starting lineup. This underdog story has followed him throughout his life. Usually people root for the underdog. He wasn't part of the brawl, has never gone public with any complaints, his demeanor is understated and makes him appear to not really give a damn but every report I've seen claims he's a good teammate. I challenge anyone to provide any report that states as a fact Jamaal isn't liked in the locker room whether it's from former staff members or players not some gossip columnists. His ability to break you down with the dribble is a bear for other point guards to contend with and he does have a burst of speed when needed. He may not be the best on the ball defender but he is clever and gets some steals and breaks up plays. I think what many dislike about his playing style is exactly what makes him a better than average point guard.....his streetball past. That's what makes him good. He sees plays that a player like AJ or Runi don't and he has moves that get him into the lane and forces the defense to either commit to stopping him so he can dump it off or let him go to the hole. He hasn't benefitted from calls well this year and has taken some shots that maybe he should have dumped off. The Pacers have committed to him. They brought in his old coach and haven't given any real effort to replace him. They've drafted no point guards with a shot to take his place since his arrival and the the vets they've brought in never had a realistic chance of supplanting him. This image of one on one is over blown in my opinion. This is nothing new for a player to try and take it right back at someone. In fact the greatest players of all time are well known for doing just that. I'm not saying Jamaal is one of those guys but it's what competetive people do. While I'm a Tinsley supporter and would hate to see him go, the Pacers are obviously rebuilding and he's not the kind of player you build around. So he may be gone soon, but as long as he's here he will continue to bring his 3.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.6 steals and 12.5 points to the starting lineup.

Bball
01-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Tinsley's streak in jeopardy

Pacers point guard Jamaal Tinsley is doubtful for tonight's game against the Chicago Bulls with a sore lower back and sinus problems.

Tinsley, who missed 114 games the past three seasons, has repeatedly said he wants to play all 82 games this season.

Coach Rick Carlisle said Tinsley has been dealing with the back injury for some time. Darrell Armstrong likely will start if Tinsley doesn't play.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/SPORTS04/70122033

Cobol Sam
01-22-2007, 02:24 PM
I'll admit Tinsley shooting numbers are atrocious, but in this day and age of the internet you go look up the other points in the league to see his % are not uncommon. What I don't understand is why so many are willing to throw him away. In Rick's first season he was benched for what many assume was insubordination ( I've seen no reports as to why he was actually benched) and he fought his way back into the starting lineup. The next season he lost his job due to injuries and fought his way back into the starting lineup. This underdog story has followed him throughout his life. Usually people root for the underdog. He wasn't part of the brawl, has never gone public with any complaints, his demeanor is understated and makes him appear to not really give a damn but every report I've seen claims he's a good teammate. I challenge anyone to provide any report that states as a fact Jamaal isn't liked in the locker room whether it's from former staff members or players not some gossip columnists. His ability to break you down with the dribble is a bear for other point guards to contend with and he does have a burst of speed when needed. He may not be the best on the ball defender but he is clever and gets some steals and breaks up plays. I think what many dislike about his playing style is exactly what makes him a better than average point guard.....his streetball past. That's what makes him good. He sees plays that a player like AJ or Runi don't and he has moves that get him into the lane and forces the defense to either commit to stopping him so he can dump it off or let him go to the hole. He hasn't benefitted from calls well this year and has taken some shots that maybe he should have dumped off. The Pacers have committed to him. They brought in his old coach and haven't given any real effort to replace him. They've drafted no point guards with a shot to take his place since his arrival and the the vets they've brought in never had a realistic chance of supplanting him. This image of one on one is over blown in my opinion. This is nothing new for a player to try and take it right back at someone. In fact the greatest players of all time are well known for doing just that. I'm not saying Jamaal is one of those guys but it's what competetive people do. While I'm a Tinsley supporter and would hate to see him go, the Pacers are obviously rebuilding and he's not the kind of player you build around. So he may be gone soon, but as long as he's here he will continue to bring his 3.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.6 steals and 12.5 points to the starting lineup.

I like it. Look back to the New York game in the fourth when Jamaal had that short streak of taking it one on one into the lane. The result of that was sending Curry to the bench. The Pacers followed with a run.

Bball
01-22-2007, 02:26 PM
Let me just add this....
Tinsley isn't a good shooter and that is a given. But he makes things worse by taking bad, ill-timed shots. And he's the starting PG. IMHO that means he is the last guy that should be taking bad, ill-timed shots. That is poor decision making.

His bad shooting just compounds the situation.

-Bball

Seed
01-22-2007, 02:36 PM
I think the current roster provides no alternatives for Tinsley as a starting PG. Quis can't pass the ball nearly as well, nor Orien.
The Pacers after the trade are even more dependent of Tinsley. There is nothing anyone can do about it, other than restore his confidence, and let him play his game (and quietly look for the right trade).

CableKC
01-22-2007, 02:42 PM
In all these posts about trading for a starting PG spot and/or getting rid of Tinsley.....I would like to ask an important question.

Are you willing to include Foster ( our only remaining asset that could "technically" be considered expendable ) with Tinsley to simply get a new PG?

To me...the answer is yes..and no.

Yes...if we are able to somehow get a PG like Dre Miller or Kidd ( I know...I'm dreaming with here )...cuz IMHO....getting those type of PGs is worth it ( and therefore are not cheap ) given our critical need to upgrade at the PG spot.

But No, if we are only able to get an "okay" PG ( like Marcus Banks or Sasha Vujacic ) but had to give up Foster, simply cuz I don't think that it would be worth it. I would rather live with Tinsley's rather "spotty" play ( at least til the end of this season ), keep Foster, and explore other options at who is running the offense ( like playing Marquis with Dunleavy more so that we can have other ballhandlers on the court while giving Tinsley enough minutes to simply showcase his talents...but not enough to cause significant problems ) then make ( what I would consider ) a "lateral" move at the starting PG spot just to get rid of Tinsley.

Foster ( despite his offensive limitations ) offers more then simply pulling down rebounds and providing some defensive help against Big Men, he is the "garbageman" that does the little things that complements JONeal's and Murphy's "PF inside/out" offensive game. Although JONeal is the anchor for our frontcourt and is absolutely critical to the overall success of the Pacers, having Foster manning the paint alongside him and Murphy is important as well.

Making a lateral move at the PG spot...halfway through the season...where we already added 2 new player in the rotation...will IMHO cause even more problems. I think that its important that we get a new PG....but I don't think that its worth it to include Foster unless we get the type of PG that we KNOW will make a significant difference on the team. If such a move had to be made.....I would much rather do it during the offseason when we have a better assessment of what fits and doesn't fit with the team.

CableKC
01-22-2007, 02:47 PM
Tinsley's streak in jeopardy

Pacers point guard Jamaal Tinsley is doubtful for tonight's game against the Chicago Bulls with a sore lower back and sinus problems.

Tinsley, who missed 114 games the past three seasons, has repeatedly said he wants to play all 82 games this season.

Coach Rick Carlisle said Tinsley has been dealing with the back injury for some time. Darrell Armstrong likely will start if Tinsley doesn't play.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/SPORTS04/70122033
Given the articles of how hard he has been trying to repair his injury-prone image.....unless he can't walk....then I wouldn't be surprised if Tinsley starts, sits after 5 minutes and mostly plays some backup minutes ( like 15-20 minutes ) at the point to keep his "streak" going.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2007, 02:47 PM
He does take some bad shots. So do the rest of the players in the NBA. I'm not saying that makes it okay. I just think we're starting to nitpick on an overall level. Jamaal Tinsley isn't the reason the Pacers haven't played well the last three seasons. He's part of the reason, but so is JO and his often overlooked claim of playing in exactly 8 more games than Tins since the '04-'05 season, or the constant personel change in that time span, or Reggie's retirement and our lack of leadership since then, or the fact that our bench keeps getting less and less experienced, or the fact that we haven't run the same starting lineup for more than 20 games at a time, the constant off court distractions.....

Jamaal Tinsley isn't as easily replaced as some of you think. Are we gonna replace him with Andre Miller's two years older body, career .217 3 pt % ,3 first round playoff exits and 3 million more a year contract? Or give up experience entirely and go with some young gun like Delonte West and his ability to help his team lose more than half their games since becoming a regular rotation player?

CableKC
01-22-2007, 02:59 PM
Are we gonna replace him with Andre Miller's two years older body, career .217 3 pt % ,3 first round playoff exits and 3 million more a year contract?

Yes, I would easily take Dre Miller's career averages:

45% FG percentage / 21% 3pt% / 7 apg / 14 ppg

over Tinsley's career averages:

40% FG percentage / 31% 3pt% / 7 apg / 10 ppg

Given how well Tinsley's body has kept up for him...I would easily take Dre's 31 year old body that has played an average of 80+ games over the course of 7 seasons over Tinsley's 29 year old body that has played an average of 57 games over the course of 5 seasons.

I would even throw in Foster or Shawne to get him.


Or give up experience entirely and go with some young gun like Delonte West and his ability to help his team lose more than half their games since becoming a regular rotation player?

If the price to move Tinsley in favor of Delonte was Foster and/or Shawne....then nope...I don't want Delonte. If the price to move Tinsley in favor of Delonte was simply Harrison....then yep...I would want Delonte.

It simply depends on who we had to give up to get him and who else we get in return.

Naptown_Seth
01-22-2007, 03:17 PM
He does take some bad shots. So do the rest of the players in the NBA. I'm not saying that makes it okay. I just think we're starting to nitpick on an overall level. Jamaal Tinsley isn't the reason the Pacers haven't played well the last three seasons. He's part of the reason, but so is JO and his often overlooked claim of playing in exactly 8 more games than Tins since the '04-'05 season, or the constant personel change in that time span, or Reggie's retirement and our lack of leadership since then, or the fact that our bench keeps getting less and less experienced, or the fact that we haven't run the same starting lineup for more than 20 games at a time, the constant off court distractions.....

Jamaal Tinsley isn't as easily replaced as some of you think. Are we gonna replace him with Andre Miller's two years older body, career .217 3 pt % ,3 first round playoff exits and 3 million more a year contract? Or give up experience entirely and go with some young gun like Delonte West and his ability to help his team lose more than half their games since becoming a regular rotation player?
I completely agree, though I would take Andre Miller because he protects the ball better. He's not a 3pt guy but he doesn't force it either. He's also a better team defender.

I've been a Tins fan, not thrilled with his game this year, but even at his best the truth is that while he creates tons of steals by reading the lanes or with his quick hands near the ball, he's just not a great defender otherwise.

He never gets up on his man before the pass comes to him for example. He's always willing to let his man get the ball safely. He's not going to bumps guys and try to disrupt them. That's just not his game.


But his court vision when paired with guys getting open and the right system/flow (which has happened under Rick many times) is 2nd tier PG level (ie, not Nash, but damn good).

Since86
01-22-2007, 03:50 PM
6 out of the 10 shots Tins takes are plays called by the coach.
2 out of 10 are "last second shots" saving us from a TO by nature
1 is a broken play where no other solutions is "at hand"
1 is a "I think I have a better chance myself here"

To bad Al and Jax are gone, now it will all be concentrated on Tinsley, the man who made it his goal to play 82 games this season and thus far is keeping that promise.

Factual posts about Tins are omitted it seems, but sentiments ... oh well.

Can we see a link to these "facts," or are you just presenting your opinion in such a way it seems like they are "facts."

Your view on Tinsley is just as distorted as mine is, but labeling how you view Tinsley's game as factual while dismissing everyone else's is quite comical.

A source backing up your claim that you just presented us with how it really is would be nice. :twocents:

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2007, 03:54 PM
Tinsley's injury history is what it is. It has also affected his overall career numbers due to working back into shape, coming off the bench etc...That can't be denied but when healthy, which he has been lately, he puts up similar numbers offensively to Miller. I'm not a defensive expert and have no idea what Miller brings to the table in that regard but is it worth 3 mil more a year?

I don't like West. He plays on a substandard team and his offensive numbers aren't that great. 3.8 assists a game from a starting point guard isn't good enough and last year when he was the full time starter getting nearly 35 minutes a night he was dishing out less than 5 a game. He's currently 41st in assists to turnover and Tinsley is 26th. He's not exactly lighting it up from the field this year either.

They are both options I suppose. My point was it's not as easy to replace him as some think. There have been a few guys mentioned in the last few seasons as possible trades that just don't make sense from a business or basketball stance. If the Pacers are gonna give up on Tinsley they'll likely go younger not older and they likely go cheaper not higher. A guy like Jason Kidd is one of the best to play the position but he'll be 34 next year and with somewhere near 40 million coming to him on his contract after this year makes no sense given the direction we've seen taken this year. There just aren't that many expendable point guards sitting around the NBA that are realistically attainable. The Pacers just don't have alot of desirable players/contracts they'd be willing to give up on. They have overpaid/lengthy contract players, players they've received as throw ins or guys they want to build around like Granger,Diogu,Williams and Jermaine O'neal.

Cobol Sam
01-22-2007, 04:01 PM
I think its time to bring the Pro-Tinsley and Anti-Tinsley factions to a peaceful accord. Clearly Mark Jackson has to come out of retirement.

OakMoses
01-22-2007, 04:03 PM
6 out of the 10 shots Tins takes are plays called by the coach.
2 out of 10 are "last second shots" saving us from a TO by nature
1 is a broken play where no other solutions is "at hand"
1 is a "I think I have a better chance myself here"

To bad Al and Jax are gone, now it will all be concentrated on Tinsley, the man who made it his goal to play 82 games this season and thus far is keeping that promise.

Factual posts about Tins are omitted it seems, but sentiments ... oh well.

Where is this information coming from? Is this entirely conjecture? With all the other options available, I can't see why Rick would call that many plays for Tinsley.

Let me say here that I don't hate Tinsley. I think that his desire to play 82 games and the commitment he's shown to doing so is admirable. What I dislike about Tinsley is his effort level, not his talent level. When Jamaal is playing hard/well, the Pacers are great and are legitimate contenders in the East. Unfortunately, he only plays that way about 1/3 of the time.

I also believe that his defensive problems are largely due to lack of effort. He has the quickness to beat guys off the dribble, yet he doesn't have the quickness to guard them? He's a great theif, but most of his steals come when he leaves his man and sneaks up on someone unawares. Steals by themself do not equate to good defense. If you watched the New York game, Tinsley's defense, combined with some good ball movement by the Knicks, was the whole reason for their high shooting percentage. On most possessions Marbury would blow by Tins and draw help defense from two or three Pacers, he'd pass it off and within 1 or 2 passes, they'd have an open shot. The PG getting penetration would throw the entire defense into help mode.

It was mentioned earlier the streak Tins had at the end of the game where he went 1 on 1 with Marbury for at least 3 straight possessions. While this did have the effect of drawing the 6th foul on Eddie Curry, I don't think it was the best thing for the team. I can't have been the only person out there saying "Just pass the ball." It would have been more effective to draw that foul on Curry by passing it into JO.

One more point and I'll be done. Tinsley has talent, there's no doubt about it. Part of my thinking that the others on the list are better is likely some grass-is-greener thinking because I don't know the flaws in those player's games as well as I do in Tinsley's. Another thing that's undeniable is that he's horribly inconsistent and plays a lot of uninspired basketball.

For the past few years the Pacers have gone as Tinsley goes. That's not the situation I want this team in. I'd be more comfortable with a PG who's consistently not going to lose games, like a Trent Dilfer w/ Baltimore (to use an NFL analogy). Someone who gets the ball to the real playmakers (JO, etc.) and lets their play dictate whether the Pacers win or lose.

maragin
01-22-2007, 04:04 PM
Only because all the trades mentioned included Foster, I looked up his shooting lately, since he seems to have beaten that "can't get the easy ones" problem.

Last 3 games
10-11 from the field
4-5 from the line

I'd like to keep both Foster and Murphy around, letting them spell each other and stay fresh.

On another note, Tinsley's assist numbers aren't helped with the "feed it to JO, iso-clear out" gameplan. Stats don't reflect well, assist-wise on that. I'd like to see an adjustment in his game with the new guys on the roster, Dunleavy in particular. Having someone else who can distribute, and take some of that pressure off Tins might help him relax and just play.

I don't like a lateral trade of Tinsley, but I would consider it for a significant upgrade. (and please send Harrison along over Foster, if possible)

LG33
01-22-2007, 04:15 PM
The Pacers have Darrel Armstrong, Oreion Greene and Keith McCloud backing up Tinsley.

I don't mean to nitpick, and I normally don't, but when you spell all three point guards' names wrong (in the same sentence nonetheless) it hurts my eyes and my brain. Plus, I'm kind of a fan of Tinsley, even though I wish he would put a little more energy into his shot.

EDIT: You should also spell Jamaal with three a's...

DaSMASH
01-22-2007, 04:26 PM
What I was really trying to say about Tinsley was that in general late in games he makes very poor decisions. Most games the last 4 minutes come down to two people. The point guard and the head coach. The head coach has the right players on the floor to finish and the point guard LEADS and DIRECTS the team. He does not take poor shots with 12 to 14 seconds left on the shot clock during these last possesions, he looks over the game and does not shoot a 3 pointer when you do not need one. Jamal is no better than a 50-50 point guard, look at the pacers winning percentage this year and last (.500 ) For any of you to even try to justify by putting STATS in front of me or anyone else that can actually SEE :rolleyes: a game and how it unfolds is beyond me :censored: . STATS are nothing more than numbers. Winning takes BRAINS and TALENT. Jamal has only a little of the latter and none of the BRAINS.:hmm:

STATS are for Fantasy people. I like reality and the reality of wins and losses, not how many assists and turnovers or shots taken and made. The best way to look at Tinsleys game is does he WIN or does he LOSE.:-o

Young
01-22-2007, 04:34 PM
Tinsley does have to go.

+ Good talent
- Bad decision making
- Bad defense

We are not going to get a more talented point guard than Jamaal, even if we include Jeff Foster.

I think that a name we could go after is Sebastain Telfair. Is he better than Tinsley? No. He is cheaper, has more upside, and I think he is a capable starter. He was recently benched in favor of Rajon Rondo but I love what Telfair had to say about it. He seems to have the right attitude.

If I were the Pacers and went after Telfair i'd offer Tinsley, Foster, filler for Telfair, Perkins, and Ratliff. Telfair and Perkins are both very talented and Ratliff is a 11 million dollar expiering contract after next year. That deal could save Indiana around 25 million dollars.

I see names like Andre Miller, Marcus Williams, hell even Jose Calderon but what I would like to know is what deal would those teams accept? I believe the 76ers are planning on holding on to Andre Miller for now, I don't see why we the Nets trade Marcus Williams he is young, talented, and cheap, and why would the Raptors trade Jose? He is a nice backup for them to TJ. With Rasho, Bargnani, Bosh, and Garbajosa they don't need Jeff as much as they need Caldreon.

I think that we could swap Tinsley for Eric Snow, maybe Damon Jones too. Is that something we want to do? Snow is aging but really is better than Tinsley, IMO, and he would save us money in the long run. DJ would be an upgrade over Greene and McLeod.

Travis Diener has rumored to be avaliable but I was reading that the Magic fans have been very unhappy with Carlos Arroyo. With Diener so cheap the Magic just might hang on to him especially if they see Arroyo as a problem on the court.

Brent Barry is a guy I have thought of. I wondered how a Barry/Daniels backcourt would work. Offenseively I think they would be fine, defenseively though is another story. I don't know about Barry's defense on point guards but I guess it can't be any worse than Jamaal's.

I like Marko Jaric's talents. Only I question his half court play. However if it came down to it, I would not hesitate to swap Jamaal for him. Both have injury problems, both are overpaid, and both have faults in their games. When it comes down to it though, I think that Jaric is a better defender and he can't be much worse than Tinsley when it comes to decision making, so i'd love to have Jaric here. Maybe Daniels/Dunleavy would take the pressure off of Jaric with the half court decision making. I defiantly like the thought of a Jaric/Daniels backcourt defenseively.

I think that we might be able to get Luke Ridnour. He may or may not be avaliable. I think that Jamaal Tinsley and Jeff Foster could work for the Sonics in exchange for Ridnour, Danny Fortson, and cash but who knows?

Dan Dickau could be had from Portland. Swap Keith McLeod for Dan Dickau. I guess I don't know a whole lot about Keith. He seems to be just barely an average backup point guard. Dickau would give us a different look at point guard. Maybe he is just a shorter, younger version of Sarunas but one is that Dickau had a great year with the Hornets a couple years ago putting up 13 points and 5 assists. I'd take the small risk.

Marcus Banks is rumored to be on the block. He is hands down a better defender than Jamaal. He hasn't found his place in Phoenix but maybe he would here in Indiana.

I think that Indiana's best opitions are Jaric, Banks, and Brent Barry. JMO though.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-22-2007, 05:09 PM
You act as if Phoenix and San Antonio are actively seeking to shake up their #2 & #3 Western Conference standings. They also could probably care less about dealing with point guards considering they have two of the best on their teams with adequate backups in place. Minnesota's also probably pretty well set at point with James and Hudson and isn't Jaric primarily being used as a two. I understand you want to get rid of Tinsley but c'mon 35 year old Barry who's known more for his backup shooting guard past than his blazin' point guard duty and Banks who's defensive prowess has garnered him hardly a look on the Suns or Jaric who like Barry isn't really even a point guard.

Young
01-22-2007, 05:25 PM
You act as if Phoenix and San Antonio are actively seeking to shake up their #2 & #3 Western Conference standings. They also could probably care less about dealing with point guards considering they have two of the best on their teams with adequate backups in place. Minnesota's also probably pretty well set at point with James and Hudson and isn't Jaric primarily being used as a two. I understand you want to get rid of Tinsley but c'mon 35 year old Barry who's known more for his backup shooting guard past than his blazin' point guard duty and Banks who's defensive prowess has garnered him hardly a look on the Suns or Jaric who like Barry isn't really even a point guard.

The Spurs want to get more athletic. So it is likely a third team would have to be involed. It would be a long shot. There have been rumors that the Spurs have offered Barry for Corey Maggette and Morris Petterson but the Clippers and Raptors aren't for it. I think that Barry could play the point. I think he did in Seattle for a little bit if I remember right. They also have not been happy with Beno Uditrh as their backup from what i've read.

I think that Phoenix fans mentioned Jeff Foster as a player they would like but I would think the Pacers would want to ship out Jamaal as well so that might be harder.

Maybe your right and Jaric and Barry aren't really point guards but I don't consider Jamaal much of a point guard either. It's time to count the loss and move on. Like I said I really don't think that they can be worse than Jamaal.

Jamaal has talent, but he makes poor decisions and he doesn't play good defense. That's what we get from our starting point guard. Maybe none of these guys don't work out but i'll take my chances. I think we know what we are getting from Jamaal and that isn't to much.

Shamboubou
01-22-2007, 05:35 PM
The Pacers need a PG who doesn't shoot. If you read the forums, almost every poster hates how many shots Tinsley takes. Here's a list of guys I'd rather see shooting than Tinsley: O'Neal, Granger, Daniels, Dunleavy, Murphy, Williams, Diogu, Armstrong. Did I forget anybody? The Pacers have plenty of guys who can make shots, what they need is a PG who can play D and likes to pass. If Andre Miller comes without us giving up Granger or Williams, sign me up.

You forgot Foster. :laugh:

CableKC
01-22-2007, 05:50 PM
Interesting...I had never thought about Jaric.....he did run the point with the Clippers a couple of seasons ago...but has fallen more into a Guard role...as opposed to a specific PG or SG role...in Minny. Contractwise...its a wash. He may not be as much of a Pass first PG that we are looking for....and may even be considered a lateral move....but given his somewhat capable defense....which can't be any worse then Tinsley's....I would probably do it...especially if it meant that we could move Tinsley without including Foster and/or Shawne.

CableKC
01-22-2007, 06:19 PM
Maybe your right and Jaric and Barry aren't really point guards but I don't consider Jamaal much of a point guard either.
I would much rather take on Barry as 3pt shooting ( not a scoring ) Role Player at the backup SG spot.

He's expensive, but he can hit the 3pt shot and is a solid FT shooter.

vapacersfan
01-22-2007, 06:55 PM
What we need is a new coach who will play our players properly and not try to turn our pg into a sg. You guys would hate Andre Miller after a year of Rick because he is a passer and not a shooter.

You never miss a chance, do you?

One of these days you will get over your crush on Tinsley and realize there are some things he is responsible for himself, and no matter how much you want to blame the coach it wont matter. The coach is not the problem.

AesopRockOn
01-22-2007, 07:01 PM
Aesop it can be frustrating when Pacers fan start bashing on our own players. I thought Able had a great post that factual evidence is omitted about Tinsley. I mean Shaq isn't a point guard and he is way better than Tinsley. That doesn't mean we can bash Tinsley for not being Shaq right? Nor would it mean we'd want Shaq playing point guard for us.

Come on the guy is playing hard for us. Read my previous post and Able's. There is evidence to suggest Tinsley is an alright basketball player and helps this team.

Chill out man. I was referencing Eveezy's post where he stated that Tinsley was realistically better than Barbosa. I disagreed and pointed out that they don't really play the same position. I ain't knocking Tinsley though he deserves as much slack as he does praise; it always happens like that. I just said LB is a better player than JT. K?

NapTonius Monk
01-22-2007, 07:17 PM
Tinsley is the best all around option that we have. I definitely wouldn't trade him for Jaric. Anyone else wish we could stick Armstrong in the WAYBACK machine and shave about 5 yrs off of him. Greene is the best defender, Tinsley is the best passer, and Armstrong has the most energy and savvy. Wish we could blend them into one player, but since we can't, Tinsley is the guy.

D-BONE
01-22-2007, 07:31 PM
Tinsley is the best all around option that we have. I definitely wouldn't trade him for Jaric. Anyone else wish we could stick Armstrong in the WAYBACK machine and shave about 5 yrs off of him. Greene is the best defender, Tinsley is the best passer, and Armstrong has the most energy and savvy. Wish we could blend them into one player, but since we can't, Tinsley is the guy.

I think this is the common thinking and I can't really argue it. It's really like the lesser of several evils decision making. However tonight it isn't Tins. I jsut heard a report that he is on the inactive list. Given this development, I hope Greene and/or Daniels or even Dunleavy see some time at point just for fun.

Pacers_Brazil
01-22-2007, 07:32 PM
Hi guys..

I'm from Brazil and i say with certainty that Leandro Barbosa is better than Tinsley, btw Leandro can play better yet.

CableKC
01-22-2007, 07:35 PM
Tinsley is the best all around option that we have. I definitely wouldn't trade him for Jaric. Anyone else wish we could stick Armstrong in the WAYBACK machine and shave about 5 yrs off of him. Greene is the best defender, Tinsley is the best passer, and Armstrong has the most energy and savvy. Wish we could blend them into one player, but since we can't, Tinsley is the guy.
Given that I would much rather have a change at the starting PG spot...especially considering that Jaric is a way better defender then Tinsley is....and the liklihood that we wouldn't have to include Foster or Shawne...I would do it...if anything...to change things up....probaby during the offseason though.

NapTonius Monk
01-22-2007, 07:50 PM
Hi guys..

I'm from Brazil and i say with certainty that Leandro Barbosa is better than Tinsley, btw Leandro can play better yet.

Well, he's definitely quicker than Tins, and has a better jumper. But I think Tinsley, when he's focusing on the team, is a better floor general than Leandro. Tinsley is a strong passer. His problem is he allows himself to be drawn into personal battles on the floor, and that's what kills us.

BlueNGold
01-22-2007, 08:33 PM
I find it more than a little interesting that Tinsley is sitting out this game. It just happened to be the second game after the trade that Tinsley misses a game. I don't think Tinman is happy that his friend Jack is OUTTAHERE!!!

The fact we have numerous better options than Tinsley is obvious. The fact we could NEVER get Barbosa or even Telfair by giving up Tinsley is just further proof.

Fortunately, Tinsley's time as a Pacer is short. Unfortunately, we can't get anything of value back for him.

kellogg
01-23-2007, 07:03 AM
I think my claim about Tinsley is unpopular (as he has supplanted Jackson as the scapegoat), but not ridiculous.

He is #13 among guards in the League in assists
He has a better Assist to turnover ratio than guys you listed:
Mike Bibby
Stephon Marbury
Tony Parker
Gilbert Arenas
Allen Iverson
Devin Harris
T.J. Ford
Leandro Barbosa

He is #8 among guards in the league in Steals per game
He is #13 among guards in steals to turnover ratio.

His shooting numbers are almost a match for Mike Bibby's, being less than 1% different...
Tinsley shooting 37.7% on 469 attempts
Bibby shooting 38.6% on 570 attempts


Tinsley is unpopular, not untalented.
Tinsley appears laid back, but he doesn't lack significant contribution or dedication.

I think statistically you're right, but just like Jackson and Harrington, stats don't tell the whole story. I think most posters here who don't care for Tinsley don't like him because of his decision making, especially in crunch time. If you watched the last two Dallas games, both games were close in the end, but you had Tinsley forcing up shots seemingly during several possessions in a row...he did the same thing during the close NY game, almost looking like he and Marbury were playing one-on-one.

After watching the Bulls game, it's pretty clear we can win without him (albeit one game)...and it's fair to say we don't lose much defensively. I just think that the main objections to Tinsley have been BB I.Q. (and work ethic, toughness, etc), and now that you have two new guys who understand the game better it's important to get a PG to simply run the team instead of act like he's the second coming of A.I., at the most inopportune moments.

Cobol Sam
01-23-2007, 10:47 AM
I think statistically you're right, but just like Jackson and Harrington, stats don't tell the whole story. I think most posters here who don't care for Tinsley don't like him because of his decision making, especially in crunch time. If you watched the last two Dallas games, both games were close in the end, but you had Tinsley forcing up shots seemingly during several possessions in a row...he did the same thing during the close NY game, almost looking like he and Marbury were playing one-on-one.

After watching the Bulls game, it's pretty clear we can win without him (albeit one game)...and it's fair to say we don't lose much defensively. I just think that the main objections to Tinsley have been BB I.Q. (and work ethic, toughness, etc), and now that you have two new guys who understand the game better it's important to get a PG to simply run the team instead of act like he's the second coming of A.I., at the most inopportune moments.

Yeah, I can't argue against the Dallas game. I don't know what the balls his problem was. Maybe DA should be our 4th quarter point guard.