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diamonddave00
01-21-2007, 09:50 AM
After once again watching Jamaal Tinsley again force too many shots down the stretch (4of 14 mage field goals for game) 1of5 in 4th not counting being fouled on 3 other attempts , its becoming obvious he's not the answer at the point.

I know Andre Miller is not the flashiest point guard but he knows him limitations and forces few bad shots. Once again this season he's among the nba assist leaders , his man on man defense is no worse than Tinsley's.

With Granger and Dunleavy here , it appears the small forward position is filled Diogu , and Murphy added at pf/c seem to have answered depth questions there.

So I suggest the Pacers offer Tinsley , Shawne Williams and David Harrison for Andre Miller. Williams and Harrison it would appear have little playing time rotation spots here but have skills.

Miller is a durable player in his career he's missed less than 10 games total and plays 35+ minutes a night. Just seems to me he fits the Pacers needs at the point a steady ,durable point guard . Williams and Harrison add potentially 2 solid player to the Sixers, and Tinsley -in my opinion is more suited to a team that wants to get up and down the court.

Just my thought after watching Tinsley fire at will and hit barely 30% of his field goal attempts over the last 15 games or so.

ajbry
01-21-2007, 09:52 AM
I'd love to acquire Miller somehow, especially if we can ship out both Tinsley and Harrison in the process. Shawne, on the other hand, has all the tools to be a very good player in this league, and if we give him up just to get a 2nd-tier PG, I'll be disappointed. I'm not exactly sure what other players the 76ers may be interested in, but who knows, maybe an offer of Tinsley + Harrison could work.

Evan_The_Dude
01-21-2007, 09:52 AM
That trade works for us, but I don't see it making any sense for Philly.

JB's Breakout Year
01-21-2007, 09:55 AM
Even if Miller would be a significant upgrade at the point, I don't think we give up Shawne Williams in return.

The fact that we don't have a draft pick this year makes him more valuable. He's young and talented enough to make up for us sitting this draft out.

diamonddave00
01-21-2007, 09:59 AM
The Sixers gain a point guard who is 2 years younger in Tinsley , plus a servicable and perhaps better young center in Harrison , plus a young raw sf Shawne Williams .

Williams is the key , while he has potential with Granger and the length of Dunleavy's contract 5years -I don't see Shawne getting any real minutes in the next couple years at least.

Williams is a lot to give up and would be attractive in any deal to a rebuilding team, as might Harrison who has shown flashes(though few and far between).

Its probably over paying in actuality for Miller (in most Pacer fans eyes) but its a move I feel needs to be made. Miller averages 13 ppg and 9 assist while turning the ball over less than 3 times a game.

To me its a fair offer to the Sixers.

dgranger
01-21-2007, 10:34 AM
I would trade Tinsley, Harrison, and a pick, or maybe Tinsley and Foster. I would not trade Shawne.

D23
01-21-2007, 10:45 AM
If their salaries were close enough to match, I bet Donnie Walsh could convince his buddy Billy King to do a straight up swap of Tinsley for Miller. I can hear the conversation now...

"Billy we know you guys really want to tank the season and have a shot at Greg Oden, but that pesky Andre Miller is good enough to win just a few too many games for you. Buddy do I have a deal for you..."

speakout4
01-21-2007, 10:49 AM
I would trade Tinsley, Harrison, and a pick, or maybe Tinsley and Foster. I would not trade Shawne.

2007- no pick
2006-Williams
2005-Granger
2004-Harrison
2003-Jones

If we trade Williams, Harrison, and Tinsley for Miller after letting Freddie go our record of retaining and developing 1st rounders is pathetic. If we do this then Granger and Foster will be the only 1st rounders that we have retained on our 15 man roster.

odeez
01-21-2007, 10:52 AM
Oh man yes, if we could get Miller that would be great. We need a smart Vet. in here no doubt. Armstrong is great, but way past his prime.

BBALL56HACKER
01-21-2007, 11:06 AM
you have to make hard deals to get better. Miller would be a big upgrade on decesion making on the floor. maybe see if they would take Marshal instead of Williams. Pacers need to get a deal done NOW to save this season!!!!

beast23
01-21-2007, 11:08 AM
I will always believe that the Pacers would be better off with a PG that is able to make better decisions that Tinsley. And one that doesn't press his own agenda nearly as much, or go into a 1-v-1 game against his defender after being shown up on the other end of the court.

However, with Dunleavy on the team able to handle a "point-forward" role, I think that a PG that is a top notch distributor is not as important to us now as it was a week ago.

For that reason, I think the stress on getting a new PG should be placed more on his defensive abilities, his ability to handle and take care of the ball, and on his ability to simply hit a wide-open shot.

For a true distributor of the ball, I believe we can draft one and develop him or eventually acquire one with our MLE.

But for right now, considering that Dunleavy might even play some backcourt minutes, we need to acquire some defensive players capable of playing PG. Heck, if we have to, give up someone and get AJ back. I don't care how few minutes he's getting at Dallas, if he were a Pacer, especially without Tinsley on the roster, he's more than capable of providing exactly what we need here in Indy.

diamonddave00
01-21-2007, 11:18 AM
I'm a little different than some I now look at Ike Diogu as our 2nd 2005 #1 pick. He was basicly dealt for Sarunas and Powell 2 undrafted players.

Dunleavy's contract as it kicks in will make him virtually untradable for 3 more years and with Granger here I don't see Shawne getting real minutes anytime soon(though I really like him).

Getting Diogu softens dealing Harrison and Williams in my opinion if he's the player Bird thinks he is.

Like Bird and Walsh said you have to give to get, the fact Miller is so durable to me is a key. We all know Jamaal is a chest cold or hissy fit away from missing games.

JB's Breakout Year
01-21-2007, 11:33 AM
I'm a little different than some I now look at Ike Diogu as our 2nd 2005 #1 pick. He was basicly dealt for Sarunas and Powell 2 undrafted players.

Dunleavy's contract as it kicks in will make him virtually untradable for 3 more years and with Granger here I don't see Shawne getting real minutes anytime soon(though I really like him).

Getting Diogu softens dealing Harrison and Williams in my opinion if he's the player Bird thinks he is.

Like Bird and Walsh said you have to give to get, the fact Miller is so durable to me is a key. We all know Jamaal is a chest cold or hissy fit away from missing games.
Good point on Diogu, but I think there are plenty of opportunities for Shawne as Danny moves into the starting line-up. Maybe Shawne takes Danny's old minutes, eventually picks up where Danny left off as a 6th man.

We moved Al and Jackson-2 players who were getting the bulk of minutes at the 2 and 3. If Dunleavey, Jr. continues to play 2, then there are minutes at the 3 for Shawne to play.

Anthem
01-21-2007, 11:35 AM
Like Bird and Walsh said you have to give to get, the fact Miller is so durable to me is a key. We all know Jamaal is a chest cold or hissy fit away from missing games.
Speak for yourself. I don't know that.

I'd be fine with trading for Miller, but I'm not going to bash Tinsley for being frail right now.

Pacersfan46
01-21-2007, 11:43 AM
Speak for yourself. I don't know that.

I'd be fine with trading for Miller, but I'm not going to bash Tinsley for being frail right now.

So to you, the last 3 months have completely erased the past history of 4 years?

Anthem
01-21-2007, 11:51 AM
So to you, the last 3 months have completely erased the past history of 4 years?
I'm down on Tinsley because of his decision-making, but how can you fault him for his durability this year? He's committed to 82 games, and there's nothing so far that makes me think he won't get there.

diamonddave00
01-21-2007, 11:58 AM
I hope you are right Anthem because trading AJ and Runi and acquiring 38 year old Armstrong , no shot Orien Greene and currently out for at least 2 weeks Keith McLeod doesn't bode well if JT has his 3 times a year sinus infections.

Winter hasn't really set in yet and JT has chronic respitory and sinus troubles. Seeing will be believing -just mark me down as a lil pessimistic JT makes it through the season without at least 1 spell of injury or illness.

hoopsforlife
01-21-2007, 12:12 PM
I'm down on Tinsley because of his decision-making, but how can you fault him for his durability this year? He's committed to 82 games, and there's nothing so far that makes me think he won't get there.


I personally would not fault him for his durability this year. But I blame him for it. If he was injured or sick we wouldn't be losing these close games.


PS: I wouldn't trade Williams. He is our real 2007 number 1 pick.

CableKC
01-21-2007, 12:31 PM
I like what Shawne has to offer...but if we could get rid of Tinsley and get back Dre.....without giving up Foster...who ( despite having some ups and downs ) I think is critical for balencing Ike and Murphy's defensive deficiencies...then I would do it.

However, I seriously doubt that the Sixers do it.....I mean....seriously.....when I look at that offer...I even question if its enough.

dgranger
01-21-2007, 12:34 PM
I like Tinsley as a backup SG. He isn't good enough to be a starting SG. Also he is not a good PG because of the afor mentioned "decision making". I feel he is weighing down the team. He's like a cement block attached to our leg as we sink to the bottom of the Central Division Ocean. I honestly beleive all we need now is a true PG. That PG could be Miller.

rexnom
01-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Miller is not a poor choice. Also, he is probably available because the Sixers are trying to tank and rebuild at the same time. However, if we want him then I don't think there's anyway to swing it without giving up Shawne.

Cobol Sam
01-21-2007, 02:10 PM
Wow... with Jackson gone its pretty clear who the new scapegoat will be.

diamonddave00
01-21-2007, 02:32 PM
Check JT's shooting over last 15 games -- 64 fgm 196 fga .326 fg% but still shooting 13 times a game. Free throw shooting 42 of 65 nly 64.6% , so yes he's averaged 12.1ppg but at a very high cost shot wise. Over same period 12of 47 3ps 26%.

There is no reason he should be shooting more than around 8-10 times a game he's not a good enough shooter to warrent 13 shots in addition to 2 or3 other times he's fouled attempting a shot.

If JT would shoot less and move feet on defense I'd have no problem but he's hoisting too many shots and playing matador defense.

Roaming Gnome
01-21-2007, 02:34 PM
Wow... with Jackson gone its pretty clear who the new scapegoat will be.
Yeah, that is very evident!

To be fair to Tinsley...I didn't see Rick objecting or saying much of anything when Tinsley was trying to take it over down the strech. Personally, I hate when Tinsley goes into Rucker Park mode, but it seems like there is more to it then just Tinsley calling his own number. We've seen it in the last 3 games and there has been more then enough oppertunities for Carlisle to bring this to a halt if this is truely not wanted.

Bball
01-21-2007, 05:32 PM
Yeah, that is very evident!

To be fair to Tinsley...I didn't see Rick objecting or saying much of anything when Tinsley was trying to take it over down the strech. Personally, I hate when Tinsley goes into Rucker Park mode, but it seems like there is more to it then just Tinsley calling his own number. We've seen it in the last 3 games and there has been more then enough oppertunities for Carlisle to bring this to a halt if this is truely not wanted.

If Carlisle was to do anything about it my guess is that Tinsley would quickly come down with a sinus problem.

I have a feeling that TPTB decided to "let Tinsley be Tinsley" this season and evaluate where his head and game are really at. There'd be a secondary benefit of showcasing him and at least pretending the coach and Tinsley are on the same page (for PR reasons). At least that's what I hope is going on.

Tinsley has been problem 1A in my book for quite a while. There may be other problems but until he's gone everything else is just going to be magnified.



-Bball

diamonddave00
01-23-2007, 03:33 PM
Odd Jamaal Tinsley misses very next game, i know purely coincidental. Also notice when our point guard limits his shots to 10 he also ends up with 10 assist how Armstrong played last night , looking to pass first is all Tinsley needs to do.

Shade
01-23-2007, 04:27 PM
If Carlisle was to do anything about it my guess is that Tinsley would quickly come down with a sinus problem.

One day later... :chin:

Young
01-23-2007, 10:32 PM
I would be pissed to see Shawne Williams get traded.

Do you guys realize what kind of talent this kid is? He could be a stud. A franchise player that you build around? No. But he still can be an all star level player. He would have been a lottery pick in 07.

When you take a look at the draft, Shawne was probably a steal. I think when it is all said and done he will be a top 5-10 player from his class. Maybe to some that may not mean to much, but I think there are some real players in this draft and Shawne is going to be one of the better ones.

You don't trade talent like Shawne just to dump Tinsley. Shawne has just as much talent as Danny Granger and is probably going to be just as good as him it's just that DG is more polished so he gets more attention on here.

I think that the most we add to Jamaal is Jeff Foster. That's only at the right deal. If that leaves us with Eric Snow or Marko Jaric or Sebastain Telfair as our opitions I really don't care. I just want Jamaal out of here but I would not give up Shawne to do it. Ever.

Andre Miller is a very nice point guard who I would love to have. But when it comes down to it I don't think he is worth Shawne Williams. JMO though.

ApNeDtRiEeW
01-23-2007, 10:44 PM
Wow... with Jackson gone its pretty clear who the new scapegoat will be.

OK...so when a player is taking bad shots....plays the point but at times doesn't look to pass..and it adds up to us losing games what are we supposed to say?

Were not blaming all our problems on him but we all realize he causes some problems and would like to see a change. Is it to much to ask for your point guard to look for the assist over the running jumper in the lane with two guys jumping at him? Or the horrible looking three that makes everyone cringe followed by another that misses a few possesions later?

If Tinsley took 5 less shots a game and got his teammates involved even more we wouldn't be discussing another trade because this team would be SET. Hopefully he took a look at Armstrong last night and saw the differences between taking bad shots and losing or passing for a higher percentage shot from a higher percentage shooter and winning.

Young
01-23-2007, 10:51 PM
Hopefully he took a look at Armstrong last night and saw the differences between taking bad shots and losing or passing for a higher percentage shot from a higher percentage shooter and winning.

Well Jamaal has had some good examples backing him up over the years but he hasn't really learned from them it seems. Kevin Ollie (I think Reggie said he was one of his favorite point guards to play with, gets the ball where you want it.), Kenny Anderson, and even Anthony Johnson.

I was optimistic about Jamaal coming into the season. I said, hey new team, new system, new year, hopefully a new Jamaal, right? No. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of waiting for Jamaal. Trade him. I don't care if it's for Eric Snow or whoever. Just get rid of Jamaal and get what you can. I don't think that he is going to look at DA's performance last night and get anything from it. He sure hasn't seemed to learn from others who have been here.

imawhat
01-23-2007, 11:02 PM
I'd like to have Raja Bell, then maybe Antonio Daniels.

Anthem
01-23-2007, 11:17 PM
I'd like to have Steve Nash. We should go after that guy, as long as we don't trade Jermaine or Granger. I'd consider trading Jermaine if they threw in Amare. Plus S. Marion to make the salaries match.

Naptown_Seth
01-24-2007, 02:17 AM
So to you, the last 3 months have completely erased the past history of 4 years?
4 years?

Benched when Rick took over. Missed some games later due to his mother.

Then got injured after carrying the team mostly alone for a few weeks after the brawl. Came back for playoffs. That's year 1 of injuries.

Last year spent half the season out with injury, never really came back strong. That's year 2.

And the year before RC came on board the guy played over 70 games.


I just don't get this, why do you make up stuff like this? Is it honestly just to justify your opinion, as if saying "2 years of major time missed due to health" doesn't sound good enough to make your case? Let's make it 20, and throw in a murder charge, and the time he ate babies. Yeah, now I really hate him.

Good grief. Can we at least discuss the reality. I'm not saying he hasn't had major injury issues the last 2 years, enough to warrant being questioned on his health. I just don't get why that has to be modified to make it sound even worse.



Andre - love the guy, love getting him here...no F'n way I give up Shawne in order to do that. The Pacers already let one pure shooter go with James Jones. Shawne's shot looks even better than that, and his all-around game looks much stronger than JJ's was or even is now.



To be fair to Tinsley...I didn't see Rick objecting or saying much of anything when Tinsley was trying to take it over down the strech. Personally, I hate when Tinsley goes into Rucker Park mode, but it seems like there is more to it then just Tinsley calling his own number. We've seen it in the last 3 games and there has been more then enough oppertunities for Carlisle to bring this to a halt if this is truely not wanted.
True, and it confuses me because it would seem to go against what RC wants to do on offense. Maybe it's a lack of faith in the rest of the offense. Add to this Rick's strong verbal support of Tinsley recently (I think on his show, but maybe just a post game).

Eindar
01-24-2007, 07:02 AM
I'd love to get Andre Miller, but Shawne is too much. I also agree that Shawne is going to have problems getting minutes with the way the roster is currently constructed. That's why I'd offer Diogu instead of Williams. Not only is it, in my opinion, better for us talent and position -wise, it's also a better match for Philly, who could really use a guy who could post up on their team. Ditching Diogu also frees up some frontcourt time for Shawne to get more time at 4.

Even if that deal can't be done until the end of the season, I'm ok with that. But giving up Williams better get us a 1st in return or it better be a no-brainer "championship move", and I'm not sure Andre Miller is that guy. Good piece, love the guy, but not worth lottery talent.

Mourning
01-24-2007, 07:22 AM
I'm not willing to give up either Diogu or Shawne at this moment. I want to see what exactly we have with Diogu, while Shawne has shown some real nice things in the very limited minutes he has gotten so far.

I would not have a problem to part ways with either Harrison, Foster, Jamaal or Baston. Not that that is going to net us much though.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Doug
01-24-2007, 08:12 AM
For that reason, I think the stress on getting a new PG should be placed more on his defensive abilities, his ability to handle and take care of the ball, and on his ability to simply hit a wide-open shot.

Rawle to Utah for Dee Brown.