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Unclebuck
01-21-2007, 10:20 AM
Mitch Lawrence is not a very dependable insider, so I post this for entertainment purproses only. But it seems like it could have been true.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/v-pfriendly/story/490453p-413118c.html

New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
Indy's change of Pace

Sunday, January 21st, 2007

In the 26 months since Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest charged into the stands to fight the fans at the Palace of Auburn Hills, the Indiana Pacers had put up with a lot more bad behavior from Jackson: Not only was there an act of insubordination that resulted in a team-ordered suspension earlier this season, but Jackson had been among a group of players who were seemingly more interested in enjoying the nightlife in various NBA cities on a regular basis than they were in trying to get the Pacers into the playoffs.

There was also Jackson's celebrated visit to an Indianapolis strip club, Club Rio, at the start of training camp. Around 3 a.m. on Oct. 10, outside the club, he fired five shots from his 9mm pistol after he was hit in the mouth and struck by a car. Next month, he is scheduled to face charges of criminal recklessness, battery and disorderly conduct. Jackson was also viewed in some quarters as the leader of a group of players who had taken control of the Pacers' locker room, making it harder for coach Rick Carlisle to exert his authority.

So why did the Pacers finally cut ties with Jackson last week, when they sent him to Golden State in an eight-player trade? Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh didn't single out Jackson's previous troubles or the fact that his coach had an almost impossible job trying to control Jackson and several other teammates.

"I felt our team was together and trying to win, but for whatever reason, they weren't looking at the standings, and taking each game like, 'If we get this game, we can move up on this team,' " Walsh said. "They were just out there playing, but we need to go after it and I just didn't see that developing."

Several persons in the organization say that the Pacers finally decided it was time for Jackson to go when they had become concerned about his influence on Danny Granger, their promising second-year forward. Walsh and team president Larry Bird are convinced that Granger has a real chance to become a superstar. As much damage as Jackson had done to the franchise, they didn't want him messing with one of their key performers.

"That was the last straw," said a source. "They saw what was happening and didn't want (Jackson) to be a negative influence on Granger."

In the end, the Pacers took on more money by acquiring Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy Jr., and parted with the best player in the deal, Al Harrington. But they managed to finally get Ike Diogu, a forward with good post skills who they had tried to get from the Warriors last year when they were shopping Artest.

But the best thing about the deal is that the Pacers achieved some closure in the post-Auburn Hills era. While Detroit has moved on from the brawl, the Pacers have needed a public-relations makeover for more than two years. Their once-loyal fans, among the NBA's best when they had Reggie Miller and a team that got to the 2000 Finals, had started to abandon the Pacers in the wake of the Detroit riot. Last spring against the Nets in the playoffs, the empty seats at Conseco Fieldhouse were so plentiful, one New Jersey official looked around and said, "Is this really Indiana?"

The Pacers could never really begin to win their fans back and start anew until they got rid of Jackson. Now, the two players who couldn't wait to race into the seats and fight the Detroit fans are gone. That's why this past week's trade might have been the most important in Indiana Pacers history. Because while it was about helping their future, it was also about putting a close to an ugly part of their past.

Slam dunks


Something's amiss with the Spurs and it really starts with the fact that Manu Ginobili has tailed off since nearly winning the MVP award in the 2005 Finals. He's only in his fifth NBA season, but Ginobili turns 30 this June and he's racked up a lot of mileage playing for his Argentine national team. It's shown in his production. When the Spurs won their last title, he averaged 21 ppg on 51% shooting. Entering this weekend, he was at 16 ppg and 45%. The Spurs are one of several teams looking at the Clippers' Corey Maggette, who could bring them a spark, but also might be a bad fit because he has a low basketball IQ.

In the wake of the Broncos' Darrent Williams' murder in Denver, and other shootings in that city involving pro athletes, the NBA this past week ordered its security forces in all 29 cities to come up with a list of clubs and other night spots that should be made off-limits to players. Once the clubs are identified, with the help of local law enforcement, the league will send a directive to teams mandating that players avoid those spots or be subject to a substantial fine.

The Nets can't be happy that Jason Kidd has decided that he wants to play for Team USA. At his age, the last thing they want is for him to commit to playing in the offseason.

Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony may prove able to play with each other, but swingman J.R. Smith might be the biggest Nuggets' problem, with his superstar-sized ego possibly getting in the way of accepting fewer shots.

He is listed at 185 pounds, although he looks more like he's about 150, but Sacramento shooting guard Kevin Martin continues to amaze with his 51% shooting and 20.9 scoring average. Coming into this season, he was a career 7.8 per game scorer. "You can tell he's been working on his game because now he can get his shot off the dribble," said Allan Houston, after watching Martin blitz the Knicks for 30 points last week. "When a person improves as much as he has, that tells you he's a relentless worker."

Unclebuck
01-21-2007, 10:29 AM
Here is an article on Dunleavy from the S.F Chronicle

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/01/21/SPG6JNM6UK1.DTL&type=printable

Fan appreciation night for Dunleavy
- David White, Chronicle Staff Writer
Sunday, January 21, 2007


(01-21) 04:00 PST Indianapolis -- Some fans pumped a fist, others whistled their approval and most cheered at lungs' top, all for the name of ... Mike Dunleavy?

Those approval screamings during pregame introductions were welcome proof Dunleavy isn't in Oakland anymore, where Warriors fans treated him with disdain ever since he was taken with the No. 3 overall pick of the 2002 NBA draft.

Well, guess what? If Warriors fans were giddy to see Dunleavy sent along his merry way in Wednesday's eight-player swap with the Pacers, Dunleavy can match them clap for clap.

And you thought all that home-game booing didn't get to Dunleavy after all these underachieving years.

"Honestly, I just got used to it," Dunleavy said before scoring 14 points in his Pacers debut, a 108-106 loss to the Knicks on Saturday.

"It was kind of pathetic on their part. But, there's nothing I could do except play as hard as I could. That's all I did. I just kind of tuned it out and didn't really let it affect me day to day."

It's not all bitter herbs. Dunleavy complimented Warriors coach Don Nelson. He thanked team vice president Chris Mullin, then flew to Indiana and chose the No. 17 jersey worn by Mullin as a Pacers player.

Still, Dunleavy kept saying he was "excited" to be here. From the sounds of the Conseco Fieldhouse audience, the hugs and kisses were mutual.

He was 6-for-17 from the field, which is what Warriors fans have been talking about all along, yet there wasn't a single jeer from the fans. Think about it: Dunleavy got booed at home in November for missing a free throw with a 22-point lead.

"A clean slate is exciting for players going to new places," Pacers coach Rick Carlisle said. "These things take time and it seems to go smoother when you win."

Dunleavy scored all his points in a 7-minute span of the third quarter. He made three jumpers, a three-pointer, a tip-in and an underhanded driving layup.

"Way to go Dunleavy!" a fan yelled from Row 3. "Whew!"

Believe Dunleavy, the pleasure's his.

He was in the starting lineup for just the third time since Nov. 7, after which Nelson handed Dunleavy a sideline pass. That was never the plan for the versatile former Duke star who could play guard and both forward positions.

He gave the Warriors 11.4 points and 4.8 rebounds per game this season. Decent numbers, but then, Dunleavy wasn't given a five-year, $45 million extension in the offseason to be decent.

Dunleavy never found a fit in Nelson's up-tempo game, as was the case in whatever it was former coaches Mike Montgomery and Eric Musselman tried to do with him.

"Sometimes in life, things just don't work out and you just have to move on," Dunleavy said. "No matter how hard you try or what you do, it's just not meant to be and you need a new start, a fresh beginning. In terms of the situation, yeah, I question whether it was the right situation.

"That's what I'm hoping for here."

Likewise, said Carlisle, who called Dunleavy a "key player" in the trade that included Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod for Indiana's Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Josh Powell.

Now Dunleavy is a starting guard for Indiana, where no one calls him a draft-day bust or other words inappropriate with preschoolers around.

Murphy came off the bench for 10 points and 11 rebounds. Diogu did not score in 5:28 of play.

"It felt really good tonight, like I was a kid playing the rec league," Dunleavy said afterward. "They have great fans here, this is basketball country. We couldn't have asked for a warmer reception."

E-mail David White at dwhite@sfchronicle.com.

Unclebuck
01-21-2007, 10:39 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2007/01/21/SPGGHNMHM91.DTL&type=printable

- Gwen Knapp
Sunday, January 21, 2007


Before he changed into his uniform, dressing in full Golden State regalia for the first time and started lighting up the scoreboard, Stephen Jackson addressed the weakest part of his game. He went on a charm offensive.

He raved about getting to play for Don Nelson. He made fun of himself. He declared brotherly affection for his new colleague Baron Davis, whom he has known since high school. He acted as the team's designated greeter before tip-off, taking a microphone at mid-court and thanking the fans for welcoming him to the Bay Area.

To divest themselves of Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy's lead feet and suffocating salaries, the Warriors had to take on Indiana's albatross. Jackson's powerful temperament unnerved the Pacers as much as Dunleavy's aimless jumper exasperated Golden State. Jackson is better-known for pummeling a fan during the Pacers' brawl in Detroit two years ago and for being arrested on a weapons charge outside a strip club in October than he is for anything he has done on the court.

After the eight-player trade Wednesday, Chris Mullin got by questions about Jackson's rap sheet with a leading sports cliche: "He's ready to put that behind him.'' What that usually means is: "We want to pretend none of that ever happened.''

So it was a bit surprising to hear Jackson, with a big assist from fellow Pacer exile Al Harrington, give himself some good-natured grief.

At a news conference before the game, the two newcomers were asked what they thought of making their debut without Davis, who was suspended from Saturday's game for taking a swing at Quinton Ross late in Wednesday's loss to the Clippers.

"That's real unfortunate,'' Harrington said slowly. "I don't know, it might be some of that Jackson stuff rubbing off on him.''

The last word had barely left Harrington's mouth when Jackson eagerly followed up: "That's what I told (Davis): 'I just got here, and I'm already rubbing off on you.' ''

His timing wasn't that good when he tipped in Matt Barnes' missed layup in the second quarter.

Despite missing the final shot in an overtime loss to the Cavs, Jackson made a great sales pitch to the crowd Saturday night with 29 points. But the pre-game performance might have been more impressive because it didn't come across as marketing.

He certainly wasn't shy when the chance to criticize Indiana coach Rick Carlisle arose. Asked how he and Harrington felt about leaving a plodding system for Nelson's breathless style, Jackson very forcefully said: ''Let me correct that. We were supposed to be running in Indy. I don't know what happened.''

In his campaign for understanding, there wasn't room for political correctness. He just stayed on message. He can play the game the way he prefers, the way it should be played. He is happy here. He will stay happy here.

"The game's fun again,'' he said, "you know, getting up and down the court, playing like you played in high school, like when you were growing up. It's even better now because you're getting paid for it.'' Later, he added "I love to be in the game where it's a rat race. I play with a lot of emotion, so that's the kind if game I thrive in.''

Most of it might mean nothing in the long term. His temper may be uncontrollable. After all, he wasn't protesting halfcourt basketball when police charged him with firing a gun outside a strip joint.

But at least, Jackson didn't pretend that he came to Golden State with a clean slate. He owned up to being emotional, albeit with a positive spin, and he clearly knows that he has to prove himself. That's a start.

Harrington helped out beyond the comedy sketch. Replying to a question about his ability as an inside player, he finished up with a little tribute to the man next to him at the table.

"This guy right here, Stephen Jackson, is a load, too,'' Harrington said. "He's listed as 6-7, but he plays more like he's 6-9.''

That remark may say more about Harrington's qualities as a teammate, but Jackson must, in some way, have earned the generosity.

On the court, his advertised passion revealed itself early. After a Mickael Pietrus dunk, Jackson waved his arms to the crowd, requesting more affirmation for his new teammate. He celebrated a three-pointer of his own with less panache.

When the game ended, and Jackson was asked if he felt the Warriors had moved fast enough for him, the team's high scorer said: "The question is, 'Can I keep up with them?' '' Another selfless moment.

They were all fairly small gestures, but a charm offensive isn't a power game.

E-mail Gwen Knapp at gknapp@sfchronicle.com.

ajbry
01-21-2007, 10:43 AM
Um, Jack was one of our best players, a 7-year veteran, and had a championship ring. Obviously, he is going to be one of the leaders.

As for Granger, there's nothing there to substantiate the claim that anything Stephen did correlated directly to Granger, so that article, in my opinion, is an overexaggeration on every level.

"His coach had an almost impossible job trying to control Jackson and several other teammates." That is the problem here. It ain't Jack, it ain't JO, it wasn't AJ, etc. The locker room hierarchy is highly flawed no matter who has been there for the past few years, especially since Reggie retired. No use trying to pin the blame solely on Jack, although he is always the easy target.

Evan_The_Dude
01-21-2007, 10:49 AM
I don't know how much I believe that Jackson was rubbing off on Granger [in a negative way]. But I'm glad to see Jackson happy to be where he is. He's a good guy and I like what he brought to our team but with the cloud over his head, he really needed to be moved. If there's a city out there that will embrace him and not be so hard on him regarding his past, it's Oakland, Ca. and the Bay Area as a whole. I wish him the best of luck there, and when I move back to the Bay later this year I'll be sure to make it to plenty of Warriors games like I used to before.

odeez
01-21-2007, 11:51 AM
Rumors - people like to talk, and people love to point fingers. It's in the past, so who really cares, move on. I am more concerned with our record right now. Jack will do fine here in Oakland. I saw he took 25 shots last night, 29 points, that's perfect for him.

speakout4
01-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Jackson was also viewed in some quarters as the leader of a group of players who had taken control of the Pacers' locker room, making it harder for coach Rick Carlisle to exert his authority.


UB
Reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that any player who is not easily manipulated or intimidated mayhave trouble with RC. There are just too many complaints about him from just too many sources and not all these guys have a personal axe to grind. Start with Detroit not retainning him. If the coach can't get his players to buy into his strategy then he isn't doing his job. It doesn't matter whether he is right or not; he has to get the players on board. Well I'm sure that Dun and Murphy will not give him as much trouble as Jax and Harrington but do we sacrifice a talented bunch of players for the likes of Dun and Murphy. The problem is RC and the problem can't be fixed until LB is gone so we start with those two. I like RC as an asst. but not head coach.

odeez
01-21-2007, 12:04 PM
ok let's move on, new day.

speakout4
01-21-2007, 12:10 PM
Rumors - people like to talk, and people love to point fingers. It's in the past, so who really cares, move on. I am more concerned with our record right now. Jack will do fine here in Oakland. I saw he took 25 shots last night, 29 points, that's perfect for him.

Sorry. You don't move on until you solve problems. You just change one problem for another.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-21-2007, 12:42 PM
UB
Reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that any player who is not easily manipulated or intimidated mayhave trouble with RC. There are just too many complaints about him from just too many sources and not all these guys have a personal axe to grind. Start with Detroit not retainning him. If the coach can't get his players to buy into his strategy then he isn't doing his job. It doesn't matter whether he is right or not; he has to get the players on board. Well I'm sure that Dun and Murphy will not give him as much trouble as Jax and Harrington but do we sacrifice a talented bunch of players for the likes of Dun and Murphy. The problem is RC and the problem can't be fixed until LB is gone so we start with those two. I like RC as an asst. but not head coach.


Well said.

Putnam
01-21-2007, 12:51 PM
I've got nothing more to say about Stephen Jackson, but this is something more:


Their once-loyal fans, among the NBA's best when they had Reggie Miller and a team that got to the 2000 Finals, had started to abandon the Pacers in the wake of the Detroit riot. Last spring against the Nets in the playoffs, the empty seats at Conseco Fieldhouse were so plentiful, one New Jersey official looked around and said, "Is this really Indiana?"

The Pacers could never really begin to win their fans back and start anew until they got rid of Jackson.

I thing of two guys in know in particular. One is the night guard in the building where I work. Another is a former work colleague. Both are sports nuts. The guard is extremely knowledgeable about what is going on with the whole NFL and more. The other guy's wife took a lover and left him because he spends so much time watching sports, writing about them in his blog and talking about them.

Neither of those guys likes the Pacers at all: neither would go to a Pacers gfame if you paid for the tickets. And both can tell you with a lot of feeling about the process by which they lost interest. The brawl was a big part of it for both of them. The slowed-down, half-hearted way they play under Carlisle is a big part of it, too.

Lots of people around here say they like the walk-it-up, half-court, 24-second offense and are happy when the Pacers win games by 72-68. But there are lots of people like my two friends who honestly think they see better basketball at the high schools, and certainly at the college level than they get from the pros in general and the Pacers particularly.

Neither of them says that the won-lost record is why they don't like the Pacers. Both were loyal fans of IU through the Davis years. One of them has stuck by the Dodgers all his life, through high and low. They are not fickle fans at all.

There's no saying that either of my two friends -- or any of the thousands of people like them -- are suddenly going to return to the Pacers. But one of their strong objections has been eliminated.

That can only be good for the franchise.

ABADays
01-21-2007, 01:12 PM
With the Artest trade to the Kings and Jackson to the Warriors the Pacers are personally trying to bring the Western Conference to its knees.

hoopsforlife
01-21-2007, 01:15 PM
With the Artest trade to the Kings and Jackson to the Warriors the Pacers are personally trying to bring the Western Conference to its knees.

Thats funny. :lol:

But it just might work...hmmm...Tinsley to the Suns, anyone???

jjbjjbjjb
01-21-2007, 01:41 PM
Lots of people around here say they like the walk-it-up, half-court, 24-second offense and are happy when the Pacers win games by 72-68.

When the Pacers were winning with that offense, no one complained.



But there are lots of people like my two friends who honestly think they see better basketball at the high schools, and certainly at the college level than they get from the pros in general and the Pacers particularly.

This is ignorance (or worse). Anyone who thinks the basketball is better in high schools and colleges than in the NBA does not know much about basketball.

The fans are away because the team is playing .500 ball and the fans are used to better than that. End of story.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-21-2007, 01:57 PM
Not to mention the Colts are playing in the AFC championship game today and could go to the Super Bowl. Another problem is the casual fan , who far outnumber those of us who waste half our lives writing to each other on message boards, have no idea who the hell these players on the team are. They know JO, Foster and to a lesser extent Tinsley but once you get past that many people are like who's Daniels and when did we get Baston ...who'd he play for last year? Rawle Marshall? Where'd he go to college? Now they get to ask what happened to that white guy whose name I couldn't pronounce...oh we traded him...for who?...Ike Diogu? Who the hell is that? Combine that with nothing really positive coming out of the last few years and people lose interest. I know my wife will walk in the room when I'm watching a game and ask those kind of questions. She used to watch the games with me, now she walks thru the room and says things like... Orien Greene? That's a funny name.

Roaming Gnome
01-21-2007, 02:41 PM
Not to mention the Colts are playing in the AFC championship game today and could go to the Super Bowl. Another problem is the casual fan , who far outnumber those of us who waste half our lives writing to each other on message boards, have no idea who the hell these players on the team are. They know JO, Foster and to a lesser extent Tinsley but once you get past that many people are like who's Daniels and when did we get Baston ...who'd he play for last year? Rawle Marshall? Where'd he go to college? Now they get to ask what happened to that white guy whose name I couldn't pronounce...oh we traded him...for who?...Ike Diogu? Who the hell is that? Combine that with nothing really positive coming out of the last few years and people lose interest. I know my wife will walk in the room when I'm watching a game and ask those kind of questions. She used to watch the games with me, now she walks thru the room and says things like... Orien Greene? That's a funny name.

:ding:
I couldn't have said this better myself. To answer Uncle Buck's question from another post....It is still going to take time to get the casual fan back in the fold.

Right now, the casual fan is being wined and dined by the masked maurauder clad in blue. Most casual fans that I deal with on an everyday basis were happy with getting rid of Jackson, but ultamatly really didn't care. One of my co-workers went to the, "NBA doesn't matter until the play-offs" card before conversation at the water jug turned very quickly back to Colts and "damn we were wrong about coach Sampson".

Bball
01-21-2007, 02:55 PM
This is ignorance (or worse). Anyone who thinks the basketball is better in high schools and colleges than in the NBA does not know much about basketball.


It depends on what you are looking for. If you are talking the level of talent at every position then there's no comparison. If you are talking teamwork, passion, effort, etc game in and game out then the gap narrows considerably.

IU this season is much more entertaining than the Pacers IMHO. EDIT: I am speaking prior to the trade with (of course) the jury still out in regards to what will happen now that the trade has been made.

-Bball

v_d_g
01-21-2007, 04:16 PM
I've got nothing more to say about Stephen Jackson, but this is something more:



I thing of two guys in know in particular. One is the night guard in the building where I work. Another is a former work colleague. Both are sports nuts. The guard is extremely knowledgeable about what is going on with the whole NFL and more. The other guy's wife took a lover and left him because he spends so much time watching sports, writing about them in his blog and talking about them.

Neither of those guys likes the Pacers at all: neither would go to a Pacers gfame if you paid for the tickets. And both can tell you with a lot of feeling about the process by which they lost interest. The brawl was a big part of it for both of them. The slowed-down, half-hearted way they play under Carlisle is a big part of it, too.

Lots of people around here say they like the walk-it-up, half-court, 24-second offense and are happy when the Pacers win games by 72-68. But there are lots of people like my two friends who honestly think they see better basketball at the high schools, and certainly at the college level than they get from the pros in general and the Pacers particularly.

Neither of them says that the won-lost record is why they don't like the Pacers. Both were loyal fans of IU through the Davis years. One of them has stuck by the Dodgers all his life, through high and low. They are not fickle fans at all.

There's no saying that either of my two friends -- or any of the thousands of people like them -- are suddenly going to return to the Pacers. But one of their strong objections has been eliminated.

That can only be good for the franchise.

Amen, brother.

You can have a bad team but you'll support the team as long as they put an entertaining product on the court. The Pacers are just not entertaining under Carlisle. If I want to see a slow down, POOR SHOOTING, non athletic brand of BBALL, I'll turn on the women's games (like NEVER) or catch the special olympics' version. Carlisle may be a control freak and stickler for detail but CLEARLY shooting practice is not on his schedule.

Anthem
01-21-2007, 06:44 PM
Amen, brother.

You can have a bad team but you'll support the team as long as they put an entertaining product on the court. The Pacers are just not entertaining under Carlisle. If I want to see a slow down, POOR SHOOTING, non athletic brand of BBALL, I'll turn on the women's games (like NEVER) or catch the special olympics' version. Carlisle may be a control freak and stickler for detail but CLEARLY shooting practice is not on his schedule.
That's awesome.

First post I've read where you haven't complained about that first-round pick.

Well done, sir! :cheers:

BlueNGold
01-21-2007, 06:49 PM
That's awesome.

First post I've read where you haven't complained about that first-round pick.

Well done, sir! :cheers:

A cheap shot at Special Olympics is a step up? :confused:

Los Angeles
01-21-2007, 07:15 PM
A cheap shot at Special Olympics is a step up? :confused:

And puts it in the same category as women's bball. :rolleyes:

Something tells me v_d_g would get his *** handed to him by most players on a girl's HS team, let alone a pro player.

Women's bball is vastly entertaining, especially if you actually care about how the game is played.

Listen v_d_g, even if your point was that you're not very entertained by the Pacers, I think you could have found a classier way of saying it.

I think your idea of entertainment is a Sportscenter highlight reel.

:yawn:

vapacersfan
01-21-2007, 08:09 PM
When the Pacers were winning with that offense, no one complained.




This is ignorance (or worse). Anyone who thinks the basketball is better in high schools and colleges than in the NBA does not know much about basketball.

The fans are away because the team is playing .500 ball and the fans are used to better than that. End of story.

That is ignorace?

I think it is pretty narrow minded to say the best basketball happens at the pro level.

I have seen plenty of great high school and college games that would put some NBA games to shame.

I think all levels are entertaining to watch, but I dont think the NBA is that much better then the other levels.


It depends on what you are looking for. If you are talking the level of talent at every position then there's no comparison. If you are talking teamwork, passion, effort, etc game in and game out then the gap narrows considerably.

IU this season is much more entertaining than the Pacers IMHO. EDIT: I am speaking prior to the trade with (of course) the jury still out in regards to what will happen now that the trade has been made.

-Bball

QFT

BlueNGold
01-21-2007, 09:33 PM
That is ignorace?

I think it is pretty narrow minded to say the best basketball happens at the pro level.

I have seen plenty of great high school and college games that would put some NBA games to shame.

I think all levels are entertaining to watch, but I dont think the NBA is that much better then the other levels.

QFT

This is joke.

The NBA is not a very good style of basketball at all. In fact, it might be one of the worst. That's why we keep losing in international competition to countries like Argentina.

The rest of the world knows how to play TEAM ball, which is SUPERIOR basketball. That is, BETTER basketball than one-on-one AND1 competitions.

Now, if you're looking for entertainment in terms of highlight reels, the NBA cannot be beat. However, if you like to see quality basketball, you will probably need to watch college or overseas ball...until the NBA re-learns the game.

vapacersfan
01-21-2007, 09:43 PM
This is joke.

The NBA is not a very good style of basketball at all. In fact, it might be one of the worst. That's why we keep losing in international competition to countries like Argentina.

The rest of the world knows how to play TEAM ball, which is SUPERIOR basketball. That is, BETTER basketball than one-on-one AND1 competitions.

Now, if you're looking for entertainment in terms of highlight reels, the NBA cannot be beat. However, if you like to see quality basketball, you will probably need to watch college or overseas ball...until the NBA re-learns the game.

"This is Joke" :confused:

FWIW, you basically said what I was trying to say, you just said it better.

ABADays
01-21-2007, 09:49 PM
Back on topic - I just did not like Stephen Jackson but that's a real stretch. And if Danny is getting "influenced" he needs to watch who he runs with.

BlueNGold
01-21-2007, 10:20 PM
"This is Joke" :confused:

FWIW, you basically said what I was trying to say, you just said it better.

I was in agreement with you. Sorry for any confusion.

I really meant there should be no need to even argue the point. I still love NBA ball, but prefer watching teams like the Spurs and Pistons...and now the Bulls who know how to play basketball. Primarily I want to see good passing and involvement from all the players, not a boring one-on-one game by very average players...which seems to be more the norm today. I just hope some day the Pacers have a team like they did in the late 90's. That style is pretty good baskeball. I also liked Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's teams in the 80's. Those guys knew how to make better use of their entire team.

Cobol Sam
01-21-2007, 11:48 PM
I was in agreement with you. Sorry for any confusion.

I really meant there should be no need to even argue the point. I still love NBA ball, but prefer watching teams like the Spurs and Pistons...and now the Bulls who know how to play basketball. Primarily I want to see good passing and involvement from all the players, not a boring one-on-one game by very average players...which seems to be more the norm today. I just hope some day the Pacers have a team like they did in the late 90's. That style is pretty good baskeball. I also liked Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's teams in the 80's. Those guys knew how to make better use of their entire team.


Amen Brother. If you add the Suns to your list you have the perfect post in my book. I'd rather watch Nash dish 20 than Kobe score 50 any time.

Unclebuck
01-22-2007, 12:19 AM
I enjoyed reading Montieth's blog so I'll post it here.

Cleaning up the trade leftovers
Posted by Mark Montieth


As if you haven’t heard enough about the trade already, here’s a few more thoughts.

* There have been a few reports that Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird consulted Jermaine O’Neal about the trade before signing off on it. Peter Vecsey of the New York Post, citing “a source,” was among them.

Uh, no.

Walsh and O’Neal have confirmed that wasn’t true. Walsh, in fact, has never consulted a player about a trade, Reggie Miller included. It wouldn’t make sense, because a player isn’t objective and should never be put in the position of having a voice in trading his teammates. You think O’Neal would have voted in favor of trading Harrington, one of his best friends?

Uh, no.

* I’ve heard a lot of people pointing out that the Warriors improved their payroll with the trade by giving up the long-term deals of Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy.

Fans should remember this: when your team starts making trades to reduce payroll, you’re in trouble. It’s not quite the way to build a contender. Yes, it can be a step toward rebuilding, but that’s usually a long process.

It doesn’t seem the Warriors did the deal for that reason. They believe they got players who better fit Don Nelson’s system, with the added benefit of shorter contracts. The contracts of Harrington and Jackson, however, are only one year shorter than those of Dunleavy and Murphy. Not a big deal.

Speaking of Nelson's system, I don't understand all the fuss about it. To say a player didn't fit into it is hardly an insult. Nelson's system is sometimes cute and can produce points, but what has it ever won long-term? Dallas' improvement after he left there and Avery Johnson took over and gave more than lip service to defense provides a clear picture of the worth of Nelson's system.

Harrington, Jackson and Jasikevicius will probably enjoy it. The bigger question is whether they'll win with it.

* The “expert” reaction to the trade has been interesting to follow.

Bay Area columnists jumped all over it, reacting as if the Pacers had just been sold swamp land. The Star’s Bob Kravitz, also blasted it.

Most of those farther removed from the trade thought the Pacers got the better end of it. I’m told Charles Barkley raved about the Pacers’ side of it on TNT Thursday night, claiming it would return them to the top of the Eastern Conference. John Hollinger of ESPN and Jeff Weltman of Scouts, Inc. gave the Pacers an edge, as did Dave D’Alessandro of the Newark Star-Ledger.

“Better for the Warriors short-term, and much better for Indy in the long run,” D’Alessandro wrote.

It's become clear to me people in the Bay Area had developed warped opinions of Murphy and Dunleavy, particularly Dunleavy. He's like Darko Milicic was in Detroit. He was drafted too high, so fans and media took it out on him instead of the front office. That doesn't mean he's not a good player.

Dunleavy scored 18 points and grabbed 13 rebounds in his last game with the Warriors, but was booed. If he does that in his first game with the Pacers he'll get a slightly different response.

• User comments (2)

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/

quiller
01-22-2007, 01:09 AM
Okay... I understand all the arguments on this thread... this whole superior verses best though gets a little complicated yes Princton might play the "best" basket ball in college and from time to time when the stars align just right they can get a big win i.e. UCLA game. But in the final analysis they will end up loosing to a team with better quality players that is coached properly.

Any basket ball game comes down to Player A beating Player B in a one on one situation. This is usually done in two basic ways:

1 Running a play desided to take advantage of the other team not being able to play disiplined defense for a long period of time and start making mistakes.

2. Just depending upon Player A being so talented that no player B can stop him with out help. thus leaving a second Player A not being played by a Player B.

The key here and why the NBA seems to go to Plan 2 more then Plan 1 and most of the time Plan 1 turns out to be PnR is the developement over the years of the shot clock, or why teams try and transision from Defense to Offense so quickly the Defense does not have time to set up is It is harder to run plays designed to break down defenses with out having enough time to run a complicated play and a top flight NBA coach can design a defense that can stop a Plan 1 if they know the other team only has limited time to run a play.

JayRedd
01-22-2007, 11:07 AM
* There have been a few reports that Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird consulted Jermaine O’Neal about the trade before signing off on it. Peter Vecsey of the New York Post, citing “a source,” was among them.

Uh, no.

Walsh and O’Neal have confirmed that wasn’t true. Walsh, in fact, has never consulted a player about a trade, Reggie Miller included. It wouldn’t make sense, because a player isn’t objective and should never be put in the position of having a voice in trading his teammates. You think O’Neal would have voted in favor of trading Harrington, one of his best friends?



For what it's worth, I have not heard Vescey state that Walsh/Bird "consulted" JO prior to the trade for approval or something of that sort. Vescey had only said that Walsh/Bird "spoke with" JO, from the times I've heard him talk, anyway.

I don't believe Walsh/Bird would ever consult a player on a deal (Walsh said as much in his "Daily Dish" appearance with Chad Ford), but I still think it's possible that they met with him to inform him it was happening as it was going down.

Anthem
01-22-2007, 12:23 PM
Allen Iverson and Carmelo Anthony may prove able to play with each other, but swingman J.R. Smith might be the biggest Nuggets' problem, with his superstar-sized ego possibly getting in the way of accepting fewer shots.
:chin: Never noticed this before.

Not that we need more egos, but we've been needing a shooting guard...

NPFII
01-22-2007, 12:54 PM
Okay... I understand all the arguments on this thread... this whole superior verses best though gets a little complicated yes Princton might play the "best" basket ball in college and from time to time when the stars align just right they can get a big win i.e. UCLA game. But in the final analysis they will end up loosing to a team with better quality players that is coached properly.

Any basket ball game comes down to Player A beating Player B in a one on one situation. This is usually done in two basic ways:

1 Running a play desided to take advantage of the other team not being able to play disiplined defense for a long period of time and start making mistakes.

2. Just depending upon Player A being so talented that no player B can stop him with out help. thus leaving a second Player A not being played by a Player B.

The key here and why the NBA seems to go to Plan 2 more then Plan 1 and most of the time Plan 1 turns out to be PnR is the developement over the years of the shot clock, or why teams try and transision from Defense to Offense so quickly the Defense does not have time to set up is It is harder to run plays designed to break down defenses with out having enough time to run a complicated play and a top flight NBA coach can design a defense that can stop a Plan 1 if they know the other team only has limited time to run a play.


I like your analysis, and I'd like to add that unless you've got an ultra-superstar such as MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Nowitzki or Duncan (who can get better results for Plan 2) - you get:
- Plan 1 50% FG, 40% 3FG, 10 FTA, 25 APG, 10 TOs, balanced scoring
- Plan 2 40% FG, 30% 3FG, 20 FTA, 15 APG, 15 TOs, lopsided scoring

gph
01-22-2007, 01:52 PM
Not to mention the Colts are playing in the AFC championship game today and could go to the Super Bowl. Another problem is the casual fan , who far outnumber those of us who waste half our lives writing to each other on message boards, have no idea who the hell these players on the team are. They know JO, Foster and to a lesser extent Tinsley but once you get past that many people are like who's Daniels and when did we get Baston ...who'd he play for last year? Rawle Marshall? Where'd he go to college? Now they get to ask what happened to that white guy whose name I couldn't pronounce...oh we traded him...for who?...Ike Diogu? Who the hell is that? Combine that with nothing really positive coming out of the last few years and people lose interest. I know my wife will walk in the room when I'm watching a game and ask those kind of questions. She used to watch the games with me, now she walks thru the room and says things like... Orien Greene? That's a funny name.

Good points, and true. I give this post a thumbs up while listening to a Velkro Fish tape.

Team Indy
01-22-2007, 09:05 PM
Reluctantly I am coming to the conclusion that any player who is not easily manipulated or intimidated mayhave trouble with RC. There are just too many complaints about him from just too many sources and not all these guys have a personal axe to grind. Start with Detroit not retainning him. If the coach can't get his players to buy into his strategy then he isn't doing his job. It doesn't matter whether he is right or not; he has to get the players on board. Well I'm sure that Dun and Murphy will not give him as much trouble as Jax and Harrington but do we sacrifice a talented bunch of players for the likes of Dun and Murphy. The problem is RC and the problem can't be fixed until LB is gone so we start with those two. I like RC as an asst. but not head coach.

I think the multiple complaints about RC are more indicative of excessive player power in this league. In terms of playing style, RC tailors it to fit his roster. It had been discussed often that the previous roster wasn't good at running.

A more valid point was that he has to get players on board whether he was right or not. The implication is that he should maybe play a style players like but with less chance of winning. However he tries to deal with the issue, coaches should also be allowed to develop. He should be a better coach in his 7th year than in his first.