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View Full Version : I guess it's Sarunas turn to criticize Carlisle



Unclebuck
01-20-2007, 09:55 AM
I'm going to make a prediction that I believe will turn out to be true. In about 6 or 7 weeks after an initial time when Nellie plays Saras, slowly but surely Saras will play less and less to the point where he isn't playing at all. So in about 7 weeks we'll all get to read an article with quotes from Saras about how he isn't happy and how he isn't allowed to play his game.

Saras quote in this article about how he should be used as a point guard to bring the ball up the floor and run pick and rolls - is humorous to me. I thought he failed miserably in his opportunities to do just that. The Pacers have been begging for a point guard to be a leader, to be a guy they could just give the ball to and say OK run the team. Last year when Tinsley got hurt and this year with AJ gone, Saras had his chance - but he failed.



http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070120/SPORTS04/701200477/1088&template=printart


More ex-Pacers say they had issues with Carlisle
By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com
January 20, 2007


First it was Ron Artest in a solo. Then Al Harrington made it a duet. And now Sarunas Jasikevicius and Stephen Jackson have made it a chorus.

Jasikevicius and Jackson, part of Wednesday's eight-player trade between the Indiana Pacers and Golden State, echoed the complaints of other traded Pacers regarding coach Rick Carlisle's offense, which they regarded as restrictive.

Jasikevicius, interviewed by telephone by a television station in Tel Aviv, Israel, said he had asked for a trade from the Pacers "a long time ago" and had hoped to be moved in the offseason.

"All that happened in Indiana was strange," Jasikevicius said. "(Team president) Larry Bird and (CEO) Donnie Walsh bring players they think can fit the team's style, which was supposed to be free and fast, but the coach keeps on with his own style.

"They brought me in as a point guard, but I was used most of the time as a shooting guard, who runs . . . and then gets stuck in the corner waiting for the ball.

Everybody knows my style is to bring the ball up the floor and play pick and roll, but it didn't happen in Indiana."
Jackson is confident he'll find a niche in Warriors coach Don Nelson's up-tempo offense.

"It's night-and-day," Jackson told Bay Area reporters in a conference call. "Nellie has a lot of confidence in his point guards and guys that are out there to get the team in its offense and get shots. Rick wants to control a lot of the offense, control the game. That's one thing we didn't see eye-to-eye on."

McKeyFan
01-20-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm about 70 percent sure you're right. But 30 percent thinks he could find his groove in a new situation. We'll see.

Roaming Gnome
01-20-2007, 10:29 AM
Where there is smoke...there is fire, UB

I just hope the guys we've received from Golden State will be able to make Carlisle's system look a bit better. Right now, It seems like instead of building a team around players, we are trying to build a team around a coach with major flaws.

hoopsforlife
01-20-2007, 10:32 AM
I predict that Sarunas will get his chance to show what he can really do and will be the number 2 point by the end of the season for GS. If Baron Davis gets injured he will become the number 1. I think he will thrive in Don Nelson's system and will become what Bird saw in him in Israel.

I am glad he was traded for his sake and am happy the Pacers got players who fit Carlisle's system.

Rick plays a ball control style and our new guys will fit this much better than Jackson, Al and Saras did.

I predict this trade will be a win, win for both teams.

I believe the Pacers have a great opportunity to win the east this year and make the NBA finals against Dallas. We will win that matchup for the title if that happens.

If we play against Phoenix in the finals we will get smoked.

PS: I'm 90% serious so you can start laughing now. :)

BlueNGold
01-20-2007, 10:38 AM
What a joke. Sarunas cannot bring the ball down the floor. If he could have done that and defended just a little bit, he now be our starting PG. Sarunas' problems were brought on by his own deficiencies.

hoopsforlife
01-20-2007, 10:43 AM
What a joke. Sarunas cannot bring the ball down the floor. If he could have done that and defended just a little bit, he now be our starting PG. Sarunas' problems were brought on by his own deficiencies.


:lol: We will see, won't we. :)

Unclebuck
01-20-2007, 11:17 AM
Where there is smoke...there is fire, UB

I just hope the guys we've received from Golden State will be able to make Carlisle's system look a bit better. Right now, It seems like instead of building a team around players, we are trying to build a team around a coach with major flaws.

Did you read the quote from Rick today about how they are scrapping parts of their offense

Los Angeles
01-20-2007, 11:24 AM
Did you read the quote from Rick today about how they are scrapping parts of their offense

Well of course he would, he has new players with entirely different skills to consider.

When I hear players complain about Rick, I don't hear them complaining about the plays or the system. I hear them complain about

1) the lack of rotation consistency; and
2) Rick's personality - namely that he's too controlling during the games.

Changing the offensive sets does nothing to address those two flaws.

EDIT: I should point out that the only PG Rick seems to have ever trusted was Anthony Johnson. That should be alarming right there. (And I'm not trying to pile on here, I'm actually a closet Rick fan.)

Kegboy
01-20-2007, 11:39 AM
If Rick were the least bit vindictive, he'd give Tinsley the greenlight to Mel Mel Cabbage into the ground come February 5th, but he's not. Still doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

hoopsforlife
01-20-2007, 11:41 AM
If Rick were the least bit vindictive, he'd give Tinsley the greenlight to Mel Mel Cabbage into the ground come February 5th, but he's not. Still doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

Tinsley would be too winded after 1 quarter is the reason it won't happen. :)

odeez
01-20-2007, 11:45 AM
Another case of grass is greener. I saw all three of them on the local news here in Oakland and it was all about saying Saruns name. It was wierd seeing them here. Good luck, now can we all just move on>>>

Los Angeles
01-20-2007, 11:47 AM
Another case of grass is greener. I saw all three of them on the local news here in Oakland and it was all about saying Saruns name. It was wierd seeing them here. Good luck, now can we all just move on>>>

Because that's how you live your life now?

;)


(EDIT - This is a PD joke regarding "Earl". I no insult intended.)

odeez
01-20-2007, 11:57 AM
Because that's how you live your life now?

;)


(EDIT - This is a PD joke regarding "Earl". I no insult intended.)


ok

Michigan central st.
01-20-2007, 12:10 PM
Just because some european fans put Jasikevicius on a piedestal when he came here first, we still se some people on this board showing their really ugly mugs when discussing him even now that he is gone.
I mean, seriously, get over it. He didn't succeed in our team, and now those of us who care will see how it works out with the Warriors, and those who don't will forget about him.
He was never happy here, but he gave a really decent backup pg this season and certainly didn't complain.

If you wish for Tinsley to beat Jasikevicius rather than the Pacers to beat Al and Jackson, the main guys in the picture, it just goes to show how stiff you get whenever you hear Runi's name.

Seed
01-20-2007, 12:11 PM
No more Saras as your scapegoat my friends.That's the greatest part of this trade.
It didn't matter to you a bit that the 2nd unit was almost always better than the opponent's, and kept Indiana in the game many many times. It doesn't matter to you that you just lost your 3rd +- player. All you can see is 'deficiencies'.

Let's just see how you enjoy Keith McBrick now.

You just lost your scapegoats. So hurry to find the new one (Tins isn't it)?

3rdStrike
01-20-2007, 12:15 PM
I'm glad that Sarunas was for the most part professional during his time with the Pacers. I never knew about the trade requests, for example. That's how it should be done.

rexnom
01-20-2007, 12:18 PM
No more Saras as your scapegoat my friends.That's the greatest part of this trade.
It didn't matter to you a bit that the 2nd unit was almost always better than the opponent's, and kept Indiana in the game many many times. It doesn't matter to you that you just lost your 3rd +- player. All you can see is 'deficiencies'.

Let's just see how you enjoy Keith McBrick now.

You just lost your scapegoats. So hurry to find the new one (Tins isn't it)?
Good to know you're behind us 100%!

Anyways, I'm just glad to get some players that are probably dying to play under Carlisle. All these quotes say to me is that these players are too selfish to conform to a system that would probably have gotten us 50 wins this season if everyone was on the same page (see Carlisle in Detroit). I am really excited for this team now.

PacerMan
01-20-2007, 12:20 PM
Where there is smoke...there is fire, UB

I just hope the guys we've received from Golden State will be able to make Carlisle's system look a bit better. Right now, It seems like instead of building a team around players, we are trying to build a team around a coach with major flaws.

I've been a hard core Carlisle supporter, but I'm REALLY fading fast on that.
One player complaining, normal. A couple, hmm. A CHORUS????????
After Detroit???????????????

rexnom
01-20-2007, 12:27 PM
Just because some european fans put Jasikevicius on a piedestal when he came here first, we still se some people on this board showing their really ugly mugs when discussing him even now that he is gone.
I mean, seriously, get over it. He didn't succeed in our team, and now those of us who care will see how it works out with the Warriors, and those who don't will forget about him.
He was never happy here, but he gave a really decent backup pg this season and certainly didn't complain.

If you wish for Tinsley to beat Jasikevicius rather than the Pacers to beat Al and Jackson, the main guys in the picture, it just goes to show how stiff you get whenever you hear Runi's name.
I don't know about everyone else, but I kind of saw Sarunas as an insignificant part of this trade. I'm not too concerned about losing him. He might even do well. I hope he does well, though it's kind of unrealistic when I think he's going to be giving up a lot of minutes to Ellis and Davis.

I, too, would like to just move on. I wouldn't trade Rick for many coaches in the NBA and I still maintain that he has one of basketball foremost minds.

Jermaniac
01-20-2007, 12:28 PM
Why does this surprise anyone? Everybody hates this mans offense, well probably everyone but Anthony Johnson and Jeff Foster.

LoneGranger33
01-20-2007, 12:30 PM
I've been a hard core Carlisle supporter, but I'm REALLY fading fast on that.
One player complaining, normal. A couple, hmm. A CHORUS????????
After Detroit???????????????

As a band geek, I never liked listening to the Chorus...

hoopsforlife
01-20-2007, 12:30 PM
I've been a hard core Carlisle supporter, but I'm REALLY fading fast on that.
One player complaining, normal. A couple, hmm. A CHORUS????????
After Detroit???????????????

Thats the way I feel about Carlisle. In my mind Rick didn't give some deserving guys a chance to play to their potential. Now he has guys who, I hope, are on the same page with him. I really am happy Rick's getting some high IQ basketball player who will listen to him. I believe this will get us back to the top of the east.

If he doesn't succeed with these guys then I'm ready for a new coach next year.

Kegboy
01-20-2007, 12:31 PM
He was never happy here, but he gave a really decent backup pg this season and certainly didn't complain.


:eyebrow2:

Jermaniac
01-20-2007, 12:45 PM
LMAO He asked for a trade a long time ago. What a bum, its like Eddie Gill marching up into Larry's office and saying he wants to be traded. It was a sad day when this dude signed for this franchise, thank God he is gone.

He thinks he is the second coming of John Stockton, he blames everything on other people and nothing on himself. Yeah its Rick Carlisle's fault you couldnt shoot consistently, play defense or beat a press. Go back to Europe.

Unclebuck
01-20-2007, 01:30 PM
EDIT: I should point out that the only PG Rick seems to have ever trusted was Anthony Johnson. That should be alarming right there. (And I'm not trying to pile on here, I'm actually a closet Rick fan.)



That earns Rick some points in my book.


Different topic: part of me wishes Rick would start ripping players in the media, current players, former players - and let's see how much they like it. Rick goes out of his way to protect his players, he never criticizes them and what do they do - they complain about him. Regardless of whether the players have a point or not, it just seems classless to me.

rexnom
01-20-2007, 01:35 PM
I'm not gonna lie, I'm kind of regretting that AJ trade right about now. Trust me, I hate saying that but I think it might end up being a mistake. I mean, AJ could sort of bring it up and defend and he could definitely shoot. The only thing that would concern me would be his willingness to give up the ball.

Mushmouth
01-20-2007, 01:37 PM
F Sarunas. Hope he enjoys losing 50 games. I know he'll enjoy getting used every play on d (as long as he can run the pick and roll in a 120-90 loss every night).

Roferr
01-20-2007, 01:39 PM
Where there is smoke...there is fire, UB

I just hope the guys we've received from Golden State will be able to make Carlisle's system look a bit better. Right now, It seems like instead of building a team around players, we are trying to build a team around a coach with major flaws.

I have to disagree. With the new players, I believe we are building a team around JO. With the outside shooting of both Murphy and Dun, the offensive pressure will be taken off JO. Also, Diogu will be able to accomplish about what Brad did, taking even more pressure off JO. Diogu will be a great relief for Jeff or even the other way around which will give us a great rebounder down low at all times.

vapacersfan
01-20-2007, 01:41 PM
That earns Rick some points in my book.


Different topic: part of me wishes Rick would start ripping players in the media, current players, former players - and let's see how much they like it. Rick goes out of his way to protect his players, he never criticizes them and what do they do - they complain about him. Regardless of whether the players have a point or not, it just seems classless to me.

You want Rick to turn classless because his players are imature and cant handle that sometimes things dont work out?

I am dissappointed in you, UB.

I feel like I have said this 10 times the past few weeks, but "Class shows". We got a honeymoon period with Jack and Artest, but at the end of the day class shows and you are able to see the real "person".

I was shocked, and frankly a little dissappointed when Rick made the negative comments about Al and how bad he was running the fast break when he was here.

Sure, all of is true, but I prefer a person just sit back and let another make a fool of themselves. Sure the media is piling on with Jax and Al and Runi running their mouts right now, but as soon as Al starting complaining because he is not getting enough touches, Jax gets beat down the court because he is back arguing with the refs over a no call, and once again Runi cant get the ball up the floor, Rick will get the last laugh. He can do all of that, however, without bashing his former or current players in the media.

AesopRockOn
01-20-2007, 01:43 PM
Why are people saying that Saras is acting professionally? He just blamed his lack of basketball abilities on the coach. He acts like 'his style' was going to bring the team to the Finals or something. He's a loudmouthed backup's backup and is really going to be crying when the DNP's pile up with Nellie. Jack expressed his opinion on the matter and actually has developed some professionalism about making statements regarding Carlisle. Rick is a weak in-game, down-the-stretch coach and Jack made the 'eye-to-eye' statement to demonstrate that the trade is beneficial. Meanwhile, Saras is just *****ing and any one of his fanboys, who are still lingering, could have written that garbage. Saras is OK in spurts and is a bench/role player; he should start acting like it.

Michigan central st.
01-20-2007, 01:43 PM
Are you out of your mind?
I didn't see you using the F word for Jackson or Harrington who have complained plenty more. Sinking this low really makes me disappointed in parts of the Pacers fanbase, and I hope racism isn't part of the picture.

Doug
01-20-2007, 01:45 PM
No more Saras as your scapegoat my friends. ... All you can see is 'deficiencies'.


Not picking on you Seed..


What many of our Sarunas fans overlook is that

WE WANTED SARUNAS TO SUCCEED!!!

Nothing would have made Pacer fans happier than to see him come in, play at a high level, and be our starting point guard.

And he couldn't do it.

And, IMO, he *was* given a chance. He played in 73 games last year, starting 15 of them. The players in front of him all had injuries, issues, or problems with their game that opened the door for him. If he had taken advantage of it... But he didn't. He couldn't defend well enough, or had trouble handling pressure, or was a streaky shooter, or was just plain inconsistent. He's improved in a couple of those areas this year - enough to be a solid backup - but still didn't show that he could handle the starting point guard duties with the current roster.

Roferr
01-20-2007, 01:54 PM
I have to admit that my patience was wearing a little thin with RC before the trade. I couldn't stand his inconsistencies and waffling. Why he couldn't come up with a consistent substitution pattern is beyond me.

He stuck with Al and Jax and they were sandbagging his scheme all along, and RC allowed it to happen, game in and game out. I can only assume that he was afraid of upsetting them. He should have benched Jax and Al and allowed Daniels, Williams and Marshall to show what they had.

I am enthused with the new players and am willing to give RC the benefit of the doubt and see what he can do about coming up with a consistent starting five and rotation pattern. If he can't bring this group together and let players go their separate ways, then I'm all for moving him to the front office somewhere and bringing in a new HC.

I think he mishandled Runi from day one. I know most posters don't have any confidence in Runi but I think he's going to make a sound contribution for the Warriors, even though he'll still be playing with two players that had a tendency to freeze him out. Oh well, that's not our problem anymore so this will probably be one of my last posts on the subject. Other than to occasionally point out some of the good or bad things that they are doing with the Warriors.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-20-2007, 01:59 PM
Just wanted to add that Fred Jones ripped Carlisle and his offense too, didn't he?

pwee31
01-20-2007, 02:02 PM
I was a big Runi supporter, and I still hope he does well! I'm still a bigger Pacer fan, so if moving him makes the team better, then no complaints! Notice the switch of avatars from Runi, to Dun Dun!

bnd45
01-20-2007, 02:19 PM
When J-Rich returns, Runi fans better get used to seeing DNP-CD next to his name. Baron plays about 40 minutes a night and they use Ellis as much as possible off the bench at both guard spots. Then you have JR, Pietrus and Jack fighting for minutes at the 2/3 spot. Nellie loves small ball but it's extremely difficult to give 6 guys backcourt minutes.

Seed
01-20-2007, 02:25 PM
Not picking on you Seed..


What many of our Sarunas fans overlook is that

WE WANTED SARUNAS TO SUCCEED!!!

Nothing would have made Pacer fans happier than to see him come in, play at a high level, and be our starting point guard.

And he couldn't do it.

And, IMO, he *was* given a chance. He played in 73 games last year, starting 15 of them. The players in front of him all had injuries, issues, or problems with their game that opened the door for him. If he had taken advantage of it... But he didn't. He couldn't defend well enough, or had trouble handling pressure, or was a streaky shooter, or was just plain inconsistent. He's improved in a couple of those areas this year - enough to be a solid backup - but still didn't show that he could handle the starting point guard duties with the current roster.
Look, I've pretty much had it with this subject. I'm going to say it one more time, and this will be the last:
Many of the posters on this forum have displayed double standards when it came to Sarunas. Even now, after being traded he gets much colder showers than Al for saying much less. I think I am pretty much the only Sarunas' fan who came to this forum following his arrival, and have intentions to stay. And I assure you this is DESPITE the behavior of many posters here, including mods.

I don't doubt the fact you wished the guy to succeed, but he wasn't a good fit with Carslile style, and that's basically what he just said in an interview. I find it compeletely legit.

And that's the last thing I am going to say on this issue.

maragin
01-20-2007, 02:27 PM
Notice the switch of avatars from Runi, to Dun Dun!

Noted. Nothing against Saras, but he had the worst "generic" avatar picture here. (the one that looked like a close up of a porn star's face, mid grunt)

I think Saras's stint with the Pacers could be summed up in two words: Unfulfilled Expectations. Whether it was him not being the next Stockton, his adjustment to the NBA game/ season, or his fans feeling he didn't get the chance to prove himself. When he showed up, I really wanted him to dazzle us, and take the starting point guard job. This year, I'd been pleasantly surprised in the little improvements of his game. Much like Dunleavy, he was a decent player, but never lived up to his hype here. Better luck to him in greener pastures, though I think he'd fit well in Toronto or Cleveland.

My unsubstantiated theory: Sarunas Jasikevicius failed to succeed in Indiana because he was distracted by his marriage.

BillS
01-20-2007, 02:31 PM
Saras' credibility suffers for me when he claims to be the kind of player whose style is to "bring the ball up the floor". If I'd had a drink in my mouth it would have come out my nose when I read that.

Regarding Rick's controlling style, I will point out again (and again, probably) that for the preseason and many of the first games of the season Rick sat on the bench and no one looked to him for plays. The offense was still out of sync, no one could run a pick-and-roll to save their lives, and no one could hit the broad side of the scoreboard with the basketball. It wasn't working.

Peck
01-20-2007, 02:35 PM
I know I am giving a clean slate to people & I am holding that to be true, but that does not mean that I can not forget something as well.

For 8 games Rick Carlisle tried to run a motion offense that was not dependant on half court low post offense.

From 1997 to 2000 Rick Carlisle was in charge of a Pacers offense that had almost no low post offense & was filled with motion & pick & rolls.

For almost three seasons Rick ran an offense in Detroit that was not half court low post.

So for about three seasons now Rick has run a slow down low post offense.

To me there are only a couple of reasons for this.

1. He's had a CVA & the part of his brain that allows for motion has been affected & thus he is not capable of coaching this style.

2. His point guards are not always crisp passers & not everyone on the team is a good ball handler so he slows down the play to lessen the turnovers & fast breaks.

3. His best player is better in the low post so he taylors the game plan to fit with this strength.

4. His best player & highest paid player (same person) was not happy with the running offense because it limited his effectiveness & his touches.

5. Some combonation of the above.

Look like all of you I pretty much had written off Rick for being the fault for this offense. But Rick committed to a fluid style this summer & for 8 games he ran it. Then something happened that changed that. Was it the meeting? Was it because he wasn't happy with it either? Who knows, I just know that out of 9 years Rick has ran a motion non low post offense for 6 of them.

Hey, it may just be as simple as J.O. is that good in the low post so why not run this offense?

We'll see.

Either way I am glad the team is committing to something.

Unclebuck
01-20-2007, 02:50 PM
You want Rick to turn classless because his players are imature and cant handle that sometimes things dont work out?

I am dissappointed in you, UB.

I feel like I have said this 10 times the past few weeks, but "Class shows". We got a honeymoon period with Jack and Artest, but at the end of the day class shows and you are able to see the real "person".

I was shocked, and frankly a little dissappointed when Rick made the negative comments about Al and how bad he was running the fast break when he was here.

Sure, all of is true, but I prefer a person just sit back and let another make a fool of themselves. Sure the media is piling on with Jax and Al and Runi running their mouts right now, but as soon as Al starting complaining because he is not getting enough touches, Jax gets beat down the court because he is back arguing with the refs over a no call, and once again Runi cant get the ball up the floor, Rick will get the last laugh. He can do all of that, however, without bashing his former or current players in the media.


I said part of me - but no overall I don't want Rick to do that and besides I know he never will. We know that because of the way he exited Detroit and the way he acted when he didn't get hired here in 2000

Unclebuck
01-20-2007, 02:55 PM
What many of our Sarunas fans overlook is that

WE WANTED SARUNAS TO SUCCEED!!!

Nothing would have made Pacer fans happier than to see him come in, play at a high level, and be our starting point guard.

And he couldn't do it.

.

I've been so hungry for a point guard that I would have loved it if Saras had beaten Tinsley, AJ, or Armstrong out, but he couldn't. I've been so hungry I've been lusting after players like Earl Watson, Delonte West - that is how sick I am, lusting after players like that I should be ashamed.

I was as ready as anyone to welcome Saras in and welcome him in to being the pacers starting point guard. That is what I wanted, and I wanted it very badly. But he just isn't capable

The role Rick used him in this season was perfect for him. Play Saras with another point guard - use Saras in pick and rolls in the middle of the play and run him off screens for open shots. That is perfect use of Runi

imawhat
01-20-2007, 03:00 PM
I think Sarunas has a legit complaint. Despite his own undoings, Rick misused him a lot last year. You can't take the ball out of a playmaker's hands and expect to get the most out of him. I think this year was slightly different. Rick tried to use him in clever ways, and it was working. And you didn't hear Sarunas complain about his use this year (other than the inconsistent rotations). Either way, he can kiss his playing time goodbye. Then again, Nellie isn't known for using defensive players over offensive ones.

Bball
01-20-2007, 03:03 PM
I've been so hungry I've been lusting after players like Earl Watson, Delonte West - that is how sick I am, lusting after players like that I should be ashamed.



:banned:
This is a family board, UB!

-Bball :zip:

vapacersfan
01-20-2007, 03:04 PM
I said part of me - but no overall I don't want Rick to do that and besides I know he never will. We know that because of the way he exited Detroit and the way he acted when he didn't get hired here in 2000

My mistake.

In that case I would only be "partly" disappointed. :-p

vapacersfan
01-20-2007, 03:08 PM
:banned:
This is a family board, UB!

-Bball :zip:

You think that is bad?

When I first read his post I read "beaten Tinsley, AJ, or Armstrong out" I mis-read "beaten" for "eaten"............

Bball
01-20-2007, 03:15 PM
The only question I have as to the reason the offense changed after 8 games is whether management signed off on it too... or this is a case where Carlisle didn't have the backbone to say STFU and maintain the course. The Pacers obviously tried to give Carlisle more power with his extension and new title. Did he fail to effectively use it when push came to shove? Is that why Vecsey mentioned Carlisle wasn't exactly on strong ground with TPTB?

As Peck said, maybe JO is so good that they've decided this is the way to the promised land. But then you're asking the other players to sacrifice a lot of their own games to play this way. And JO has already balked at sacrificing any of his. It takes some mature role players to get in line and not whine or moan about their own roles. Your making everyone else effectively role players. And it takes a strong leader on the court and off. I'm not sure we really have either.

I'm starting to wonder if Carlisle was so snake-bitten by his time in Detroit and subsequent firing that he can no longer be effective at the top of the pyramid. (Maybe) His problems now are more because he's trying to be accomodating and playing favorites rather than risk alienating certain players.

-Bball

Bball
01-20-2007, 03:19 PM
You think that is bad?

When I first read his post I read "beaten Tinsley, AJ, or Armstrong out" I mis-read "beaten" for "eaten"............

The part I highlighted would certainly make someone an interesting sig! ;)

Hmmmmm :-p

-Bball

________________

"I've been so hungry I've been lusting after players like Earl Watson, Delonte West - that is how sick I am, lusting after players like that I should be ashamed. "
-Uncle Buck

pwee31
01-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Noted. Nothing against Saras, but he had the worst "generic" avatar picture here. (the one that looked like a close up of a porn star's face, mid grunt)

I think Saras's stint with the Pacers could be summed up in two words: Unfulfilled Expectations. Whether it was him not being the next Stockton, his adjustment to the NBA game/ season, or his fans feeling he didn't get the chance to prove himself. When he showed up, I really wanted him to dazzle us, and take the starting point guard job. This year, I'd been pleasantly surprised in the little improvements of his game. Much like Dunleavy, he was a decent player, but never lived up to his hype here. Better luck to him in greener pastures, though I think he'd fit well in Toronto or Cleveland.

My unsubstantiated theory: Sarunas Jasikevicius failed to succeed in Indiana because he was distracted by his marriage.

Yeah I don't really like the avatars on here, so I browse pics and select my own!

I was one of those who felt Sarunas didn't get a fair shot. I jsut felt with consistent minutes, that he would be consistent. Most of it was b/c Tinsley makes mistakes all the time, but he knows he's gonna start and his minutes will be there. I felt like Runi would make a couple and then he wouldn't see the floor. He would come off a good game, and then DA would be the 1st PG to sub out Tinsley? Things like that. I think I'm pretty unbiased so, that was my point of view.

That being said, I'm looking to him getting a fresh start, and I'm even more excited about the Pacers getting a fresh start.

Anthem
01-20-2007, 03:56 PM
No more Saras as your scapegoat my friends.That's the greatest part of this trade.
Nope, the greatest part is getting rid of the guys that were just here to talk about Sarunas.

pacerfreak
01-20-2007, 04:26 PM
Some of you want to rip Sarunus for speaking up after he was traded. Why? Are there really double standards? Did he make as many stupid plays, jaw jack with the refs, and not give 100% when he was on the floor? I agree that he would play well one game and not see the floor the next because of "match-ups". You can rip all you want but you can't say he was any more inconsistant than any other player, or the head coach, over the last two seasons. Basically we have been average at best. I do think Rick Carlise does protect his players and really thats about the only thing he is consistant at....oh and well I can't think of any thing else.

v_d_g
01-20-2007, 04:29 PM
Dude can't bring up the ball against MINIMAL pressure.

Dude is slow and UNathletic and can't guard an elephant.

And he has the balls to ***** that he wasn't used correctly. If Bird weren't about trying to save face he'd never have gotten off the bench.

It was comical watching him on the court, with Lindsey Hunter and even Jacques Vaughan making him look silly trying to get the ball over the half court line. No pressure D in Tel Aviv, Saras? :laugh:

No wonder the team basically laughed in his face when he attempted to shout instructions at them. Well, you need to actually be able to do some of the basic things in BBall, SARAS, before you attempt to admonish others for their lack of game.

Why are we still devoting thread space to this fool?

Alpolloloco
01-20-2007, 04:39 PM
OK, the final word on this matter:

JASIK RULES!!!

hoopsforlife
01-20-2007, 04:47 PM
OK, the final word on this matter:

JASIK RULES!!!

The first time I saw that picture in your avatar I thought Sarunas looked more relaxed and happier than pictures I've seen of him here. The move is going to be good for him.

Cornrows
01-20-2007, 05:14 PM
Dude can't bring up the ball against MINIMAL pressure.

Dude is slow and UNathletic and can't guard an elephant.

And he has the balls to ***** that he wasn't used correctly. If Bird weren't about trying to save face he'd never have gotten off the bench.

It was comical watching him on the court, with Lindsey Hunter and even Jacques Vaughan making him look silly trying to get the ball over the half court line. No pressure D in Tel Aviv, Saras? :laugh:

No wonder the team basically laughed in his face when he attempted to shout instructions at them. Well, you need to actually be able to do some of the basic things in BBall, SARAS, before you attempt to admonish others for their lack of game.

Why are we still devoting thread space to this fool?

Just keep spitting the truth. We've seen Saras play enough. How many bounce passes to the other team does it take to realize it's not all his coaches fault.

Naptown_Seth
01-20-2007, 05:16 PM
Kobe Bryant used to complain about Phil Jackson. He even had a "oh, I shoot too much, I'll show you" pout-fest where he intentionally passed up open looks.

Then Phil left and Kobe changed his tune after finding out the difference. It's not pure luck that Kobe without Phil missed the playoffs and the Kobe with Phil makes the playoffs and almost knocks out Phoenix.

Mourning complained about Riley in his first go-around as the Heat coach, talked about how he burned them out with his intensity, etc. Suddenly Riley returns with Zo back on the Heat and it's all good on the way to a title.


Even still you hear national commentators of every sort talking up how great a coach Rick is. You can't dismiss that because players going to work everyday in a non-winning situation don't like their job.


I was shocked, and frankly a little dissappointed when Rick made the negative comments about Al and how bad he was running the fast break when he was here.
Yeah, that surprised me and I found it pretty telling of how he felt about that situation, especially paired with the 2nd half benching vs NJ.



Saras quote in this article about how he should be used as a point guard to bring the ball up the floor and run pick and rolls - is humorous to me. I thought he failed miserably in his opportunities to do just that. The Pacers have been begging for a point guard to be a leader, to be a guy they could just give the ball to and say OK run the team. Last year when Tinsley got hurt and this year with AJ gone, Saras had his chance - but he failed.
Lots of people have seconded this already, and I will too. Anyone that thinks that ANY COACH, not just RC but any of them, would pass up a chance to look smart and win just to hold a guy down is not thinking straight. If Saras had done the job he would have been Kenny Anderson to Tinsley all over again. RC has proven that he is willing to put Tins on the bench.

Heck, he brought back Tins last year, didn't like it, and remade AJ the starter again. That says it all about Rick's desire to overlook good PG options.

Too many of us saw Saras with his problems for it to just be RC full of it.



With Rick I think the problem is simple - he has a vision of a system he wants to see run, no different than Tom Moore and Peyton Manning working a system. The reason for them is because one play sets up another, not just because of some power trip.

RC has always been a coach that likes coordinated offensive attacks that force opponents to defend one way with the intention of attacking that very defensive reaction.

But that works like a$$ if you don't run the first plays to set up the 2nd, or don't run them correctly.

With Jax (ie Mark) et. al you saw a really large playbook develop. It didn't start off big, but as the team ran some plays well until defenses figured it out, RC/Bird would stick in some new variations. So in the end a player like Jax had a huge bag of tricks to go to and could work the system from a lot of different APPROPRIATE angles.

Because Jax ran the system he was given the freedom to do so on his own, much like Manning and the Colts as mentioned.


The day this group runs anything in the ballpark of competent, multi-leveled plays (like more than 2 screens, a basic PnR, simple low post) will be the day you see RC back off.

At least in my strong-willed opinion.

RC is going to hold the reigns as long as it looks like the crap we've seen them run on the fly in the past. Sloppy passes, terrible lanes, guys not spacing the HC sets correctly, standing around working a jab step at the arc, etc. That crap gets you put in "coach jail" I think, mainly because it loses games.

Cobol Sam
01-20-2007, 05:37 PM
Kobe Bryant used to complain about Phil Jackson. He even had a "oh, I shoot too much, I'll show you" pout-fest where he intentionally passed up open looks.

Then Phil left and Kobe changed his tune after finding out the difference. It's not pure luck that Kobe without Phil missed the playoffs and the Kobe with Phil makes the playoffs and almost knocks out Phoenix.

Mourning complained about Riley in his first go-around as the Heat coach, talked about how he burned them out with his intensity, etc. Suddenly Riley returns with Zo back on the Heat and it's all good on the way to a title.


Even still you hear national commentators of every sort talking up how great a coach Rick is. You can't dismiss that because players going to work everyday in a non-winning situation don't like their job.


Yeah, that surprised me and I found it pretty telling of how he felt about that situation, especially paired with the 2nd half benching vs NJ.



Lots of people have seconded this already, and I will too. Anyone that thinks that ANY COACH, not just RC but any of them, would pass up a chance to look smart and win just to hold a guy down is not thinking straight. If Saras had done the job he would have been Kenny Anderson to Tinsley all over again. RC has proven that he is willing to put Tins on the bench.

Heck, he brought back Tins last year, didn't like it, and remade AJ the starter again. That says it all about Rick's desire to overlook good PG options.

Too many of us saw Saras with his problems for it to just be RC full of it.



With Rick I think the problem is simple - he has a vision of a system he wants to see run, no different than Tom Moore and Peyton Manning working a system. The reason for them is because one play sets up another, not just because of some power trip.

RC has always been a coach that likes coordinated offensive attacks that force opponents to defend one way with the intention of attacking that very defensive reaction.

But that works like a$$ if you don't run the first plays to set up the 2nd, or don't run them correctly.

With Jax (ie Mark) et. al you saw a really large playbook develop. It didn't start off big, but as the team ran some plays well until defenses figured it out, RC/Bird would stick in some new variations. So in the end a player like Jax had a huge bag of tricks to go to and could work the system from a lot of different APPROPRIATE angles.

Because Jax ran the system he was given the freedom to do so on his own, much like Manning and the Colts as mentioned.


The day this group runs anything in the ballpark of competent, multi-leveled plays (like more than 2 screens, a basic PnR, simple low post) will be the day you see RC back off.

At least in my strong-willed opinion.

RC is going to hold the reigns as long as it looks like the crap we've seen them run on the fly in the past. Sloppy passes, terrible lanes, guys not spacing the HC sets correctly, standing around working a jab step at the arc, etc. That crap gets you put in "coach jail" I think, mainly because it loses games.

A breath of fresh air compared to the "trade and fire everyone" posts. Thanks man.

Naptown_Seth
01-20-2007, 05:38 PM
Nope, the greatest part is getting rid of the guys that were just here to talk about Sarunas.
EXACTLY!

And for me it also means the end of Jackson as the actual scapegoat. Something I really grew tired of as a focus of 30-40% of most comments.

Basically a whole ton of "fans" just lost their only reasons for posting, and that has to make both PD and the Star better places to be.



ps - who ever blamed Saras for the losses? No one. People just got tired of hearing fanboys say "play Saras and it will solve everything". No one within reason ever thought he played enough to truly cost the team wins, at least all on his own.

JO, Jack, Al, Tins, maybe some Foster and Granger just a tiny bit, those were the guys getting blamed for losses.



A breath of fresh air compared to the "trade and fire everyone" posts. Thanks man.
I appreciate that. I should add though that elsewhere I've ripped on this latest trade. But that shouldn't be mistaken for me being a fan of the team still and hopeful against my current thinking that somehow this will work great for the team.

Heck, I was thinking of picking up at least a cheap ticket just to get a chance to see the new guys play a little in person.

Israfan
01-20-2007, 05:52 PM
Look, its true that many of "fanboys" as you offensively call us were here mostly for Saras. I dont think its a bad thing. But few I think wanted him to play ahead of team winning. For me personally it is more than a single player - it is attempt of European style in NBA. Most of us are exhausted of the style in NBA because we are used to the teamwork and only few teams in NBA are doing that.

The time will tell if this player is below average in NBA or not.

Jermaniac
01-20-2007, 06:02 PM
Monta is gonna start tonight at PG, Quis.

Naptown_Seth
01-20-2007, 06:22 PM
I know I am giving a clean slate to people & I am holding that to be true, but that does not mean that I can not forget something as well.

For 8 games Rick Carlisle tried to run a motion offense that was not dependant on half court low post offense.

From 1997 to 2000 Rick Carlisle was in charge of a Pacers offense that had almost no low post offense & was filled with motion & pick & rolls.

For almost three seasons Rick ran an offense in Detroit that was not half court low post.

So for about three seasons now Rick has run a slow down low post offense.

To me there are only a couple of reasons for this.

1. He's had a CVA & the part of his brain that allows for motion has been affected & thus he is not capable of coaching this style.

2. His point guards are not always crisp passers & not everyone on the team is a good ball handler so he slows down the play to lessen the turnovers & fast breaks.

3. His best player is better in the low post so he taylors the game plan to fit with this strength.

4. His best player & highest paid player (same person) was not happy with the running offense because it limited his effectiveness & his touches.

5. Some combonation of the above.

Look like all of you I pretty much had written off Rick for being the fault for this offense. But Rick committed to a fluid style this summer & for 8 games he ran it. Then something happened that changed that. Was it the meeting? Was it because he wasn't happy with it either? Who knows, I just know that out of 9 years Rick has ran a motion non low post offense for 6 of them.

Hey, it may just be as simple as J.O. is that good in the low post so why not run this offense?

We'll see.

Either way I am glad the team is committing to something.
#2 and #3 don't require anything but regular thinking (ie, no grudges, insanity, whatever) to explain how things have gone and why RC runs the system he currently does.

It's so freaking obvious it hurts. Who the F would expect the ball NOT TO TOUCH Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Shaq, KG, Dirk, Tim, Billups, Howard, etc on most of their team's plays? There is a reason PHX plays the style they do, his name is Steve Nash.


This gets me so worked up because if you have some Pacers fans forget about Indy and instead just evaluate other situations, all these common sense answers start popping up. The stuff that is "unthinkable" with the Pacers is considered 'obvious" with other teams when the emotion and unreasonable expectations are removed.


You don't have to go looking for secret reasons when there are simple, obvious, reasonable ones for anyone to see.




Regarding Rick's controlling style, I will point out again (and again, probably) that for the preseason and many of the first games of the season Rick sat on the bench and no one looked to him for plays. The offense was still out of sync, no one could run a pick-and-roll to save their lives, and no one could hit the broad side of the scoreboard with the basketball. It wasn't working.
I just don't get why this stuff is so easily forgotten by some fans. I thought it was pretty clear that we'd looked at that and realized it wasn't for this team after all. Once they left it things started looking better.

It also was done last year and THE PLAYERS (AJ being one of them IIRC) commented on how he was giving them more freedom. Then that started to look like crap and it got taken away again.

The idea that RC hasn't taken a look at other styles is flat-out wrong.

vapacersfan
01-20-2007, 06:49 PM
I am really, really scared.

I agree with everything you just said, Seth.

I see you quoted me, so I just want to clarify one point. I do not fault RC for calling Al out, I was a little shocked but I could see there was obvious frustration.

McKeyFan
01-20-2007, 07:46 PM
I know I am giving a clean slate to people & I am holding that to be true, but that does not mean that I can not forget something as well.

For 8 games Rick Carlisle tried to run a motion offense that was not dependant on half court low post offense.

From 1997 to 2000 Rick Carlisle was in charge of a Pacers offense that had almost no low post offense & was filled with motion & pick & rolls.

For almost three seasons Rick ran an offense in Detroit that was not half court low post.

So for about three seasons now Rick has run a slow down low post offense.

To me there are only a couple of reasons for this.

1. He's had a CVA & the part of his brain that allows for motion has been affected & thus he is not capable of coaching this style.

2. His point guards are not always crisp passers & not everyone on the team is a good ball handler so he slows down the play to lessen the turnovers & fast breaks.

3. His best player is better in the low post so he taylors the game plan to fit with this strength.

4. His best player & highest paid player (same person) was not happy with the running offense because it limited his effectiveness & his touches.

5. Some combonation of the above.

Look like all of you I pretty much had written off Rick for being the fault for this offense. But Rick committed to a fluid style this summer & for 8 games he ran it. Then something happened that changed that. Was it the meeting? Was it because he wasn't happy with it either? Who knows, I just know that out of 9 years Rick has ran a motion non low post offense for 6 of them.

Hey, it may just be as simple as J.O. is that good in the low post so why not run this offense?

We'll see.

Either way I am glad the team is committing to something.

Yeah, it's a combination, IMO.

I would like to think that JO would not have had the "I need more touches" conversation if the supporting cast were not the likes of Jax, Al, and Tins.

Those three just don't provide high percentage scoring. Given that situation, I agreed with JO--it was better for him to get the touches.

Maybe the new cast will change things a bit.

I'm no card-carrying member of the JO fan club, but I do think he's a better scoring bet than those other guys. And, I will say, when I saw JO live in Philly this year, I was mega-impressed. I've seen him play live five or six other times, and he seemed to have improved markedly.

Now, it may be fair to say that JO is a bit schyzophrenic in wanting more touches and also being upset that his best friend got traded. But that's just being human. The evidence seems to show he'll get over it and will be be a mature professional about trying to make this new cast of characters effective.

And I agree with other comments on this thread: bring in a mature, intelligent point guard and we could see a lot of different stuff from Carlisle.

Kegboy
01-20-2007, 07:49 PM
The part I highlighted would certainly make someone an interesting sig! ;)

Hmmmmm :-p

-Bball

________________

"I've been so hungry I've been lusting after players like Earl Watson, Delonte West - that is how sick I am, lusting after players like that I should be ashamed. "
-Uncle Buck

:lolchair:

And Buck, it's a perfectly acceptable lifestyle choice. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Freak.

Anthem
01-21-2007, 01:12 AM
How many times do we have to drive a stake through the "JO needed more touches" line before people realize it's a flat-out lie?

JO got fewer touches after the magical eighth game, not more.

Last time: Jermaine never complained about his touches.

Peck
01-21-2007, 03:29 AM
How many times do we have to drive a stake through the "JO needed more touches" line before people realize it's a flat-out lie?

JO got fewer touches after the magical eighth game, not more.

Last time: Jermaine never complained about his touches.

Really?

Look I can't say for certain if he did or did not say anything about his touches because I wasn't there. But then again, neither were you.

I've read reports to suggest both ways. I've read Jermaine's own words that read both ways.

Let's not kid ourselves though, he did not go into the room to complain to Larry & Rick about Shawne Williams not getting enough low post looks in the offense.

But why beat this to death again. Neither of us can prove a thing because neither of us were there.

So in respect to the new day, let's just agree that the post game 8 meeting is irrelevant now.

Fair?

Anthem
01-21-2007, 12:30 PM
Really?

Look I can't say for certain if he did or did not say anything about his touches because I wasn't there. But then again, neither were you.

I've read reports to suggest both ways. I've read Jermaine's own words that read both ways.

Let's not kid ourselves though, he did not go into the room to complain to Larry & Rick about Shawne Williams not getting enough low post looks in the offense.

But why beat this to death again. Neither of us can prove a thing because neither of us were there.

So in respect to the new day, let's just agree that the post game 8 meeting is irrelevant now.

Fair?
Dale Davis has a pink room in his basement where he has tea parties for his dolls. I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it. Fair? :devil:

Regardless, I'm content to let the subject go. Let's just acknowledge that Jermaine's touches went down after that meeting, and we're good to go.

ChicagoPacer
01-21-2007, 06:35 PM
If there is any player I have some sympathy for in the last 18 months, it's Jasikevicius. He was never going to be a world beater in the NBA. Nothing in any quote I've read from him contradicts this statement. He gave up a very nice career in Euroleague in his prime with thought of playing a role on a championship team in the NBA. If the guy wanted fame, more money, and a better personal lifestyle, he would have stayed in Europe. He took a chance based upon what Bird, Walsh, and Carlisle sold him.

Tinsley came off a bad year in 2005, but a lot of that could be blamed on the personnel lost in the fight.

Management stood firmly behind Artest and he was supposedly a changed (for the better) player.

Management (and coaching) put faith in personnel to create a style suitable for bringing in a piece like Sarunas. They failed here and the rest is history. If Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley played the way they were supposed to, Sara's defensive deficiencies could have been overcome and he would have found his spots to contribute offensively. We've become a selfish team.

It's like any of us taking a new job. You and your fiancee move halfway across the world for the same money, less notoreity, but the chance to be a part of a bigger company. You'll miss the weather, the beach, European nightlife, and being a short plane ride from your family. Your new employers tell you the company will be run a certain way. You show up, and guys have gone AWOL, the company has taken a dive, and you're stuck with a three year employment contract. I personally would be pissed. I would be upset with the department head (Carlisle), upper management (Bird and Walsh), and a lot of my teammates (Artest, Jax, Tinsley, etc.)

I don't think he will be a starting-caliber player for anyone in this league, but he could be more useful elsewhere. GS is probably not a good fit for him either, but from his perspective, I can understand why he would be happy. At least it's a change of scenery. And for a Euro, I can understand why the Bay Area could appeal to him.

If I were him, I'd work hard, keep my skills sharp, enjoy San Francisco for the next 16 months, and get back over to Europe.

Alpolloloco
01-21-2007, 09:52 PM
Wow, finally a person here who talks with some sense (instead of emotions). VERY VERY GOOD POST!

denyfizle
01-21-2007, 10:05 PM
This will be the last time anybody hears about Sarunas in the NBA. After Baron Davis comes back Runi will be nothing more than a 3rd string cheerleader that will get less than 5 mins per game of PT.

Kestas
01-22-2007, 03:33 AM
it's just plain ridicuous how ome of you people are playing dumb by totally missing the point of Saras' complaints. although that is in your blood - you can't understand how a player can complain about the coach not because of the egoistic reasons. Saras was dissapointed in the style of the team, not in his role. I assure you he would be perfectly ok, if the team would play like he was told they will but with him glued to the bench. that would show that he's not capable to help in the situation he was getting into by chosing Indiana out of that bunch. but with Rick there was no such situation. he waited, but it did not materialise. how things were I'm sure he did not want those minutes, coz it was obvious he will not be a huge asset or whatever. Saras barely cares about his personal stats, - he wants to play with people who think like him (even if he's benched) and he wants to play with the people who have a freaking will to win something. there were none of those things in Indiana, unfortunatelly. Bird promised Saras it'll be there, but he was unable or unwilling to make changes. and I'll repeat: changes were expected not to suit some other player named Saras, but to lead the team to success. if not for this already dead vision, Saras would not go to Indiana, period.

Good luck raving about all things nonamerican (read: you don't understand), coz there'll certainly be less people to correct you.

cheers.

Robertmto
01-22-2007, 04:09 AM
He'll get less time in GS than he did here.

Anthem
01-22-2007, 12:26 PM
Wow, finally a person here who talks with some sense (instead of emotions). VERY VERY GOOD POST!
"sense" = "agrees with me."

Come on, pollo loco. You talk with your emotions all the time. That's ok, we've learned to live with it. But don't pretend that you're the sole voice of dispassionate reason here. Everything you write is emotional.

Anthem
01-22-2007, 12:28 PM
Good luck raving about all things nonamerican (read: you don't understand), coz there'll certainly be less people to correct you.

cheers.
Best news I've heard today. Best of luck to your new team, and I hope Sarunas plays well for them.

Please don't come back to remind us every time Sarunas hits a shot.

docpaul
01-22-2007, 06:31 PM
Best news I've heard today. Best of luck to your new team, and I hope Sarunas plays well for them.

Please don't come back to remind us every time Sarunas hits a shot.

Sheesh. I'm far from a Sarunas supporter, but this is a bit harsh. What happened to hospitality and tolerance? :)

Don't you think it'd be boring if everyone on this board agreed with each other?

Anthem
01-22-2007, 07:49 PM
Sheesh. I'm far from a Sarunas supporter, but this is a bit harsh. What happened to hospitality and tolerance? :)

Don't you think it'd be boring if everyone on this board agreed with each other?
I wrote a response to this. It was well-written, as accurate as I knew how to make it, and highly inflammatory. I decided not to print it. Not because it wasn't true (it was), and not because I was afraid of administrative punishment (I'm not), but because I just want this chapter to be done. And so I'll leave it alone.

Kestas, best of luck with your new team.