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View Full Version : A clean slate & a new day....



Peck
01-19-2007, 06:08 AM
Now that the dust has settled & the last game played before the new team arrives it's time to clean the slate for the year & start over fresh.

As of Saturday night we will begin our very abreviated season. How will the season be? Will the results be better, the same or worse? Only time will truely tell on this and in truth this season may not be enough time to tell.

There are other factors at play here as well. Are we done trading? If we do make trades how big or how significant will those trades be? Will we still have the same coach?

Who knows, that is for the future to decide I guess.

All I know is that as of now everybody gets to start fresh.

Now to the trade itself.

Hmmmmm.......Do I like the trade?

First off it doesn't matter if I like the trade on a player by player basis. All that matters to me & this is why I LOVE this trade is that Walsh & Bird took a look at the team & said "this isn't good enough".

Do you have any idea how much that restores my faith in mankind? I have lived year after year after year after year of hearing "we don't make trades for the sake of trade" & "We have to be patient" or "we need to get to the off season & then evaluate our future from there" that I had become numb from it all.

It would have been easy for them to sit back & just be content with making the playoffs again, which they will do, and then try & do something over the summer.

But the fact that they had the nads to just literally say we are on a treadmill to nowhere impresses me more than I think I've ever been impressed before by them.

Also, I feel that this goes a long way in ending another big problem of ours. Being half @ssed.

We were half @ss trying to be a running team. We were half @ss trying to be a half court play through Jermaine team. We were doing a lot of things this way.

Well, like it or not, we now have committed to a style & a focus on which we will play.

Jermaine O'Neal is now the one & only. Oh sure someone will have to be scoring option # 2 & heck maybe even they will come close to J.O. in scoring.

But make no mistake this trade does one thing & one thing only. It puts a team in place around O'Neal that should allow him to thrive.

Frankly this may be the best way to go. Instead of trying to find a Robin to go along with his Batman maybe we should have been looking for a legion of superheros (sorry that was truely nerdy on my part but I had to throw in some DC love for Skaut ech)

Not only do I love the trade from the managment side of things I am probably about the only one of you who loves it from a player for player trade.

I harken back to Brad Miller in this part because it's just to obvious for me to pass up.

They go out & get Brad Miller light (Troy Murphy) when they could have just kept the real thing, but that is for a past argument.

Troy will immediately pay dividends on the offensive end with J.O. in the game. Teams will no longer be able to just leave one of our big men uncovered on the floor. In fact if they do decide to do that Troy can burn them from out to about 18'. Now I haven't watched him play for a good while so I'll defer to the good posters from the bay who have already given their reports on him, but I always thought he was a good rebounder.

Defensively? Again, they are adamant that he won't play physical. If that is true I don't see where he will help on the defensive end at all but let's see what he does here first.

My gut feeling? By the end of the first week Troy will either be starting with J.O. or he will be getting the majority of the min. at center.

As to Dunleavy? I have never understood the hate for the guy. Again, I don't watch G.S. that much anymore but whenever I've seen him play in the past I always thought he was a good player. I like his rebounding & I think he is good with the ball.

I don't know where he will end up on the roster btw. I could see him being anything from starting shooting guard to the 6th man who swings between the 2-3.

Ike, come on we all want "I like Ike" pins don't we? I know people are high on him & I like him to but I just don't know where he fits in with J.O. on the team.

He is a 4 pure & simple & J.O. is firmly planted in the four slot. Unless they are hedgin their bets with J.O. (you know in case he walks after next season) I just don't see where he will be anything more than a good big man off of the bench. Sadly this will probably put an end to Maceo Baston playing much.

McCloud? Meh. This years version of Kevin Ollie.

The other thing that I love about this trade is that it will now force Rick Carlisle to go big & not adjust down as he is so want to do.

We now have fourlegitimate big men in Murphy, Foster, O'Neal & Harrison. We now have Baston, Diagu, Williams & Granger who are all big enough to play at the four. We have Daniels, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy who can swing between the 3-4 & we have Tins.,Greene, Armstrong & McCloud at the point

Not to mention Marshal.

Anyway even if he wants to go small someone on the floor is going to have some bulk.

Another thing I love about this trade is the fact that Bird addressed the one major glaring need that we have had on this team in so long I can't remember when it wasn't a problem.

Rebounding.

We should now be a good rebounding team. We may not be great but we should very rarely lose the battle of the boards again.

Defense? I don't think it hurt us IMO, but time will tell.

Now to the players we lost?

Al. I like Al Harrington. I liked Al Harrington returning. However it wasn't working. Was it Al's fault? Maybe. It could also be Jermaines fault or Rick's fault or the moon's fault. The fact is it doesn't matter who's fault it was it just wasn't working.

I'll miss Al & I wish him well in the bay, but frankly this time I am not stomping the ground cursing the fact he was traded.

Jackson? It was time. Actually it was past time. Jackson was not a bad player nor was he even a bad person probably. But he just was not a good fit with our team. On a team of veterans that could shrug off his oddness like S.A. a few years ago he could get by with that. But on a team filled with some people less than mature he was just a disaster. The fans were often times to hard on him but there were times he deserved every single boo he got. I'll miss his defense. I won't miss him harping to the refs. after every offensive possesion.

Saras. Sad really. I thought at the beginning of this season that he was really starting to get it. In fact I loved when he & Armstrong would come into the game & often times would change the tempo. He's a good passer & a good shooter. He has improved his defense. However he was never as good as advertised & sorry to say this but a lot of his fans hurt his popularity more than they helped it here. But he was never as bad as some of us were saying either. I also wish him well in G.S. & I have a feeling that Saras will retire from Europe not the NBA. Not that he is not good enough, but I think he will go back to where he is more comfortable after this contract is up.

Josh Powell. Sorry fellas, but I blame Rick for us not knowing what Josh could offer. Instead of keeping 5 point guards on the active roster he should have put Powell in there for more than a few token apperances. In the pre-season he looke very good. Not a star but somebody who looked like they could have helped on the glass & some post defense. But Ricks fascination with playing his small forwards at the 4 & even the 5 spot never let this happen. I don't think Josh will ever amount to much in the NBA but I think he could have been & still could be the 3rd or 4th big man on an NBA team.

Overall let me just say this.

I love the trade from the aspect that it says to me that TPTB are not content.

That is all that I ever ask of them.

But on top of that I actually like the trade itself & what it does to the team.

So starting Saturday everybody starts fresh with me. That means J.O. gets a clean slate as well. I will now try my best to put the post game 8 argument out of my mind.

Maybe the team hasn't ever really tried to give him the players to elevate his game before. Well with this trade I think they have.

So my avatar changes & my sig. changes.

What other changes will come?

Bball
01-19-2007, 06:25 AM
What other changes will come?

If they can find a way to send Tinsley packing I'll be right there with you. Until then, it's a wait and see attitude from me. As long as Tinsley is here I fear any moves will still be 'half-@$$ed' (because he needs to be part of the housecleaning too IMHO) but I'm mostly keeping my mouth shut and waiting to see if something clicks with the new blood, the adjustments we'll make, and Tinsley himself. That doesn't mean I can't be skeptical tho.

-Bball

McKeyFan
01-19-2007, 06:50 AM
Agreed.

TPTB are not content. This was a gigantic move, and I'm excited about it.

However, I do agree with BBall. As long as Tinsley has the ball in his hands and controls the offense, a great many of our demons still remain.

lumber man
01-19-2007, 06:53 AM
i like this, i think alot more people will get behind this team now.

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-19-2007, 07:31 AM
If they can find a way to send Tinsley packing I'll be right there with you. Until then, it's a wait and see attitude from me. As long as Tinsley is here I fear any moves will still be 'half-@$$ed' (because he needs to be part of the housecleaning too IMHO) but I'm mostly keeping my mouth shut and waiting to see if something clicks with the new blood, the adjustments we'll make, and Tinsley himself. That doesn't mean I can't be skeptical tho.

-Bball


First, great post Peck. Second, I second you Bball. I still want Tinsley gone, and I think he needs a fresh start elsewhere to get him back on track anyway. Hopefully they will move him soon, but who can we get in return? Hmmm.

One bonus for me - I can watch Al Harrington play for GS locally. I wish him the best out here...

Alabama-Redneck
01-19-2007, 08:41 AM
Peck,

Welcome back to the "Sunny Side of the Street". Let me tell you it is damn lonely over here as the current population is very sparse.

Hopefully this trade will start an exodus from the "dark side" back to a more friendly area containing sunshine and fellowship.

That is a lot of BS even for me. :-o ;)

Anyway, glad to have you back. Now, we need to work on IndyGeezer, that is if we can keep him awake long enough. :laugh: :D

:cool:

tadscout
01-19-2007, 08:49 AM
I agree... :cheers:

I also don't understand the MDJ hate... I think he'll be a really good player for us... It'll be nice to always have a 2nd ball handler on the court that can run the O in him and Daniels if our PGs are getting locked down, or like last night just playing terribly...

I join others that can't wait to see Tinsley go.... his matadoor D... and his extremely selfish play on the offensive end, drive me crazy...:banghead:

Unclebuck
01-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Peck, I was waiting for your thoughts on the trade and I'm glad you're happy.

Let me say I have a lot of pre-conceived notions about the 3 players coming in and I've posted a lot of those notions over the past few days - but at this point I'm willing to wait a see what they look like on this team. I never really know a player until they are in a Pacers uniform and once they are I feel I know them extremely well after about 40 games so we'll see.

I have some real doubts about how Murphy will fare defensively alongside JO and if he's no better than Brad in this area then I will have a huge problem (I don't care how good Murph is offensively). But I'm willing to see how Murph and JO play together - my approach is convince me that Murph and JO are better than Jeff and JO - and believe me I'm willing to be convinced. I also fear that Murph plays smaller than his listed height, but we'll see.

Peck, I consider Diogu a big guy and I lump him in with JO, Jeff and Murph (in fact I consider Murph as the smallest of those 4). DH and Baston will be sitting behind the bench in street clothes. There will not be any minutes for them - at all. There won't be any minutes for Williams either.

I'd love to see what we could get for Jamaal and Harrison. if we could get an adequate point guard for those two - I'd make that trade in a heartbeat. And yes I choose the word adequate on purpose.

Like I said over the summer the rebuilding of this team won't be complete until Jax and Tinsley are gone and I said the rebuilding started with the Artest trade and then continued with the moves over the summer and now the Jackson trade. We need to rid ourselves of Jamaal and then and only then can we truely evaluate this team.

DaSMASH
01-19-2007, 12:30 PM
I'm with Peck on this deal..............I LOVE IT......

After talking to a few people DOWNTOWN it seems that everyone in Pacer land that collects a paycheck from the Simons is very POSITIVE of this deal.

Now it gives the Franchise some breathing room from the fans that kept saying they would stay away until the "bad element" had been extracted. Whats funny is that most "casual pacer fans" look at this trade and start reading other teams blogs and see what kind of stiffs that Golden State has sent us. Most of the "casual" pacer fans listen to sports radio as their bible and believe what those "sportswriters" say. To say that I have no room for sportswriters on sports radio would be a lie, I need my afternoon chuckle from these Knuckleheads more than anyone.

This trade is what it is:

Troy Murphy is your rich mans Brad Miller with a Norte Dame education compared to a Purdue education. The last time I looked Brad and the Kings were on a 7 game losing streak and in a free fall from the playoffs. Murphy gives you that consistant mid range jumper at 6'11 inches. His defensive liability will be covered up by both Foster and O'Neal. For all you "casual" fans that cried for months about Brad Miller being traded for Scott Pollard its time to just (fill in the blank).

Mike Dunleavy Jr or MDJ as he will be henceforth called. Never has a player been more scrutinized for what he was supposed to be coming out of a draft, but then again many of youu wanted Steve Alford instead of Reggie Miller...so that should show you how much that the "casual" fan knows. Lets face it this trade had DONNIE WALSH all written over it and if he believes in MDJ then so do I. Donnie has made some important trades to shape this franchise over the years, more hits then misses. MDJ will bring a very good pedigree here. He is from a Duke team that was a VERY good college team that played a very structured system, much like Carlisle's. Yes, he has problems on the defensive end, but lately so had Harrington and Jackson, neither of which could stop dribble penetration or rebound. This kid will finally get a chance to play with an ALl Star low post player who demands double teams. This kid can hit the mid range jumper given the chance -- in a structured system.

Ike Diogu was the key to this trade, the Pacers had tried to get him for Artest last year with no luck, but now he's here and again any of his liabilities can be covered with Foster and O'Neal beside him. This kid is a waiting to happen stud in pro basketball. He can score and rebound. In two years this guy alone will make this a great trade for this franchise.

Keith McCloud is a backup point guard who is much like the Kevin Ollie throw in with Chicago trade from a few years back. He will give you maybe 5 good minutes of point relief, but will be gone after this season is done.


Now do I think the Pacers are done dealing......No...The point guard situation on this team needs a severe change. Jamal Tinsley keeps making poor decision after poor decision game in and game out. The ONLY reason he is playing is because thats the only way to showcase what positive talent that he has. Jamal has lasted two years longer than I thought he would here with the Pacers. His inability to stay healthy and make the SMART decisions of when to shoot and when to pass in the forth quarter of games is beyond definition or explination now. His contract makes him a HARD trade, not impossible but hard.

I'm still hearing Memphis, so its probably going to be Boston that Donnie is talking to.

By the way I heard that Mullin asked for Bird to be included in the trade, but Larry can stand seafood.

Shade
01-19-2007, 12:39 PM
A trade was definitely needed here, and we got rid of the 2 most problematic starters, so it looks good on the surface.

On the other hand, I'm very concerned about Murphy's and Dunleavy's contracts hamstringing us to the point where we'll never be able to acquire the players necessary to make a legitimate title run. I don't see this trade as making us title contenders, even in the east.

We also downgraded our backcourt depth even further. We need to upgrade that department if nothing else.

I'm remaining neutral on the deal right now because Donnie has pulled off some amazing trades that looked really bad on the surface (Bulls deal, Blazers deal).

I'm just glad Jackson is someone else's problem now. :-p

Los Angeles
01-19-2007, 12:47 PM
Sorry to sidetrack - is that the DaSMASH of lore?

Shade
01-19-2007, 12:51 PM
Sorry to sidetrack - is that the DaSMASH of lore?

Yes.

ABADays
01-19-2007, 12:53 PM
From what I've been reading from the analysts, the contracts and the salary cap don't seem to be an issue. How - I don't know. If Austin's was a problem how can X2 not be.

Naptown_Seth
01-19-2007, 01:08 PM
But the fact that they had the nads to just literally say we are on a treadmill to nowhere impresses me more than I think I've ever been impressed before by them.
Um, what about when you just change treadmills, or maybe get on a crappier one?

And this idea about settling or not trading???

Dale for JO (about to have the most AS appearances of any Pacer)
Rose/Best for Ron/Miller (both Pacer AS)
Al for Jackson
Ron for Peja
Peja for Al (technically)
AJ for DA/Powell/Rawle
AC for Quis

Even Tinsley and Foster were products of DRAFT DAY trades, not actual draft picks. James White as a draft day trade that didn't even make the team.

I know that FA signings like AJ, Hardaway, Anderson, Saras and Baston aren't groundbreaking moves, but given the amount of major players traded since 2000 I'm not sure I understand the "no risks/no moves" attitude.


What are all these great trades other teams are making for all-stars. The Pacers have traded FOR 4 all-stars since 2000 if you include Peja as an AS caliber player.

They have traded for or moved starters from all 5 positions in the last 5 years.

PG - Best (out)
SG - Rose (out), Jackson (in/out)
SF - Ron (in/out), Al (first time, out)
PF - Dale (out), JO (in), Al (2nd time, in/out)
C - Miller (in)



Like this trade or not, the idea that they "finally did something" is insane. They even changed coaches despite not missing the playoffs in this time frame.

BillS
01-19-2007, 01:29 PM
From what I've been reading from the analysts, the contracts and the salary cap don't seem to be an issue. How - I don't know. If Austin's was a problem how can X2 not be.

salaries lower as a percentage of the expected cap.
Players expected to be more versatile and therefore tradeable later if needed.

odeez
01-19-2007, 01:44 PM
Now that the dust has settled & the last game played before the new team arrives it's time to clean the slate for the year & start over fresh.

As of Saturday night we will begin our very abreviated season. How will the season be? Will the results be better, the same or worse? Only time will truely tell on this and in truth this season may not be enough time to tell.

There are other factors at play here as well. Are we done trading? If we do make trades how big or how significant will those trades be? Will we still have the same coach?

Who knows, that is for the future to decide I guess.

All I know is that as of now everybody gets to start fresh.

Now to the trade itself.

Hmmmmm.......Do I like the trade?

First off it doesn't matter if I like the trade on a player by player basis. All that matters to me & this is why I LOVE this trade is that Walsh & Bird took a look at the team & said "this isn't good enough".

Do you have any idea how much that restores my faith in mankind? I have lived year after year after year after year of hearing "we don't make trades for the sake of trade" & "We have to be patient" or "we need to get to the off season & then evaluate our future from there" that I had become numb from it all.

It would have been easy for them to sit back & just be content with making the playoffs again, which they will do, and then try & do something over the summer.

But the fact that they had the nads to just literally say we are on a treadmill to nowhere impresses me more than I think I've ever been impressed before by them.

Also, I feel that this goes a long way in ending another big problem of ours. Being half @ssed.

We were half @ss trying to be a running team. We were half @ss trying to be a half court play through Jermaine team. We were doing a lot of things this way.

Well, like it or not, we now have committed to a style & a focus on which we will play.

Jermaine O'Neal is now the one & only. Oh sure someone will have to be scoring option # 2 & heck maybe even they will come close to J.O. in scoring.

But make no mistake this trade does one thing & one thing only. It puts a team in place around O'Neal that should allow him to thrive.

Frankly this may be the best way to go. Instead of trying to find a Robin to go along with his Batman maybe we should have been looking for a legion of superheros (sorry that was truely nerdy on my part but I had to throw in some DC love for Skaut ech)

Not only do I love the trade from the managment side of things I am probably about the only one of you who loves it from a player for player trade.

I harken back to Brad Miller in this part because it's just to obvious for me to pass up.

They go out & get Brad Miller light (Troy Murphy) when they could have just kept the real thing, but that is for a past argument.

Troy will immediately pay dividends on the offensive end with J.O. in the game. Teams will no longer be able to just leave one of our big men uncovered on the floor. In fact if they do decide to do that Troy can burn them from out to about 18'. Now I haven't watched him play for a good while so I'll defer to the good posters from the bay who have already given their reports on him, but I always thought he was a good rebounder.

Defensively? Again, they are adamant that he won't play physical. If that is true I don't see where he will help on the defensive end at all but let's see what he does here first.

My gut feeling? By the end of the first week Troy will either be starting with J.O. or he will be getting the majority of the min. at center.

As to Dunleavy? I have never understood the hate for the guy. Again, I don't watch G.S. that much anymore but whenever I've seen him play in the past I always thought he was a good player. I like his rebounding & I think he is good with the ball.

I don't know where he will end up on the roster btw. I could see him being anything from starting shooting guard to the 6th man who swings between the 2-3.

Ike, come on we all want "I like Ike" pins don't we? I know people are high on him & I like him to but I just don't know where he fits in with J.O. on the team.

He is a 4 pure & simple & J.O. is firmly planted in the four slot. Unless they are hedgin their bets with J.O. (you know in case he walks after next season) I just don't see where he will be anything more than a good big man off of the bench. Sadly this will probably put an end to Maceo Baston playing much.

McCloud? Meh. This years version of Kevin Ollie.

The other thing that I love about this trade is that it will now force Rick Carlisle to go big & not adjust down as he is so want to do.

We now have fourlegitimate big men in Murphy, Foster, O'Neal & Harrison. We now have Baston, Diagu, Williams & Granger who are all big enough to play at the four. We have Daniels, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy who can swing between the 3-4 & we have Tins.,Greene, Armstrong & McCloud at the point

Not to mention Marshal.

Anyway even if he wants to go small someone on the floor is going to have some bulk.

Another thing I love about this trade is the fact that Bird addressed the one major glaring need that we have had on this team in so long I can't remember when it wasn't a problem.

Rebounding.

We should now be a good rebounding team. We may not be great but we should very rarely lose the battle of the boards again.

Defense? I don't think it hurt us IMO, but time will tell.

Now to the players we lost?

Al. I like Al Harrington. I liked Al Harrington returning. However it wasn't working. Was it Al's fault? Maybe. It could also be Jermaines fault or Rick's fault or the moon's fault. The fact is it doesn't matter who's fault it was it just wasn't working.

I'll miss Al & I wish him well in the bay, but frankly this time I am not stomping the ground cursing the fact he was traded.

Jackson? It was time. Actually it was past time. Jackson was not a bad player nor was he even a bad person probably. But he just was not a good fit with our team. On a team of veterans that could shrug off his oddness like S.A. a few years ago he could get by with that. But on a team filled with some people less than mature he was just a disaster. The fans were often times to hard on him but there were times he deserved every single boo he got. I'll miss his defense. I won't miss him harping to the refs. after every offensive possesion.

Saras. Sad really. I thought at the beginning of this season that he was really starting to get it. In fact I loved when he & Armstrong would come into the game & often times would change the tempo. He's a good passer & a good shooter. He has improved his defense. However he was never as good as advertised & sorry to say this but a lot of his fans hurt his popularity more than they helped it here. But he was never as bad as some of us were saying either. I also wish him well in G.S. & I have a feeling that Saras will retire from Europe not the NBA. Not that he is not good enough, but I think he will go back to where he is more comfortable after this contract is up.

Josh Powell. Sorry fellas, but I blame Rick for us not knowing what Josh could offer. Instead of keeping 5 point guards on the active roster he should have put Powell in there for more than a few token apperances. In the pre-season he looke very good. Not a star but somebody who looked like they could have helped on the glass & some post defense. But Ricks fascination with playing his small forwards at the 4 & even the 5 spot never let this happen. I don't think Josh will ever amount to much in the NBA but I think he could have been & still could be the 3rd or 4th big man on an NBA team.

Overall let me just say this.

I love the trade from the aspect that it says to me that TPTB are not content.

That is all that I ever ask of them.

But on top of that I actually like the trade itself & what it does to the team.

So starting Saturday everybody starts fresh with me. That means J.O. gets a clean slate as well. I will now try my best to put the post game 8 argument out of my mind.

Maybe the team hasn't ever really tried to give him the players to elevate his game before. Well with this trade I think they have.

So my avatar changes & my sig. changes.

What other changes will come?

long post, but nice one, thanks for the read!

PacerMan
01-19-2007, 01:49 PM
Now that the dust has settled & the last game played before the new team arrives it's time to clean the slate for the year & start over fresh.

As of Saturday night we will begin our very abreviated season. How will the season be? Will the results be better, the same or worse? Only time will truely tell on this and in truth this season may not be enough time to tell.

There are other factors at play here as well. Are we done trading? If we do make trades how big or how significant will those trades be? Will we still have the same coach?

Who knows, that is for the future to decide I guess.

All I know is that as of now everybody gets to start fresh.

Now to the trade itself.

Hmmmmm.......Do I like the trade?

First off it doesn't matter if I like the trade on a player by player basis. All that matters to me & this is why I LOVE this trade is that Walsh & Bird took a look at the team & said "this isn't good enough".

Do you have any idea how much that restores my faith in mankind? I have lived year after year after year after year of hearing "we don't make trades for the sake of trade" & "We have to be patient" or "we need to get to the off season & then evaluate our future from there" that I had become numb from it all.

It would have been easy for them to sit back & just be content with making the playoffs again, which they will do, and then try & do something over the summer.

But the fact that they had the nads to just literally say we are on a treadmill to nowhere impresses me more than I think I've ever been impressed before by them.

Also, I feel that this goes a long way in ending another big problem of ours. Being half @ssed.

We were half @ss trying to be a running team. We were half @ss trying to be a half court play through Jermaine team. We were doing a lot of things this way.

Well, like it or not, we now have committed to a style & a focus on which we will play.

Jermaine O'Neal is now the one & only. Oh sure someone will have to be scoring option # 2 & heck maybe even they will come close to J.O. in scoring.

But make no mistake this trade does one thing & one thing only. It puts a team in place around O'Neal that should allow him to thrive.

Frankly this may be the best way to go. Instead of trying to find a Robin to go along with his Batman maybe we should have been looking for a legion of superheros (sorry that was truely nerdy on my part but I had to throw in some DC love for Skaut ech)

Not only do I love the trade from the managment side of things I am probably about the only one of you who loves it from a player for player trade.

I harken back to Brad Miller in this part because it's just to obvious for me to pass up.

They go out & get Brad Miller light (Troy Murphy) when they could have just kept the real thing, but that is for a past argument.

Troy will immediately pay dividends on the offensive end with J.O. in the game. Teams will no longer be able to just leave one of our big men uncovered on the floor. In fact if they do decide to do that Troy can burn them from out to about 18'. Now I haven't watched him play for a good while so I'll defer to the good posters from the bay who have already given their reports on him, but I always thought he was a good rebounder.

Defensively? Again, they are adamant that he won't play physical. If that is true I don't see where he will help on the defensive end at all but let's see what he does here first.

My gut feeling? By the end of the first week Troy will either be starting with J.O. or he will be getting the majority of the min. at center.

As to Dunleavy? I have never understood the hate for the guy. Again, I don't watch G.S. that much anymore but whenever I've seen him play in the past I always thought he was a good player. I like his rebounding & I think he is good with the ball.

I don't know where he will end up on the roster btw. I could see him being anything from starting shooting guard to the 6th man who swings between the 2-3.

Ike, come on we all want "I like Ike" pins don't we? I know people are high on him & I like him to but I just don't know where he fits in with J.O. on the team.

He is a 4 pure & simple & J.O. is firmly planted in the four slot. Unless they are hedgin their bets with J.O. (you know in case he walks after next season) I just don't see where he will be anything more than a good big man off of the bench. Sadly this will probably put an end to Maceo Baston playing much.

McCloud? Meh. This years version of Kevin Ollie.

The other thing that I love about this trade is that it will now force Rick Carlisle to go big & not adjust down as he is so want to do.

We now have fourlegitimate big men in Murphy, Foster, O'Neal & Harrison. We now have Baston, Diagu, Williams & Granger who are all big enough to play at the four. We have Daniels, Granger, Williams, Dunleavy who can swing between the 3-4 & we have Tins.,Greene, Armstrong & McCloud at the point

Not to mention Marshal.

Anyway even if he wants to go small someone on the floor is going to have some bulk.

Another thing I love about this trade is the fact that Bird addressed the one major glaring need that we have had on this team in so long I can't remember when it wasn't a problem.

Rebounding.

We should now be a good rebounding team. We may not be great but we should very rarely lose the battle of the boards again.

Defense? I don't think it hurt us IMO, but time will tell.

Now to the players we lost?

Al. I like Al Harrington. I liked Al Harrington returning. However it wasn't working. Was it Al's fault? Maybe. It could also be Jermaines fault or Rick's fault or the moon's fault. The fact is it doesn't matter who's fault it was it just wasn't working.

I'll miss Al & I wish him well in the bay, but frankly this time I am not stomping the ground cursing the fact he was traded.

Jackson? It was time. Actually it was past time. Jackson was not a bad player nor was he even a bad person probably. But he just was not a good fit with our team. On a team of veterans that could shrug off his oddness like S.A. a few years ago he could get by with that. But on a team filled with some people less than mature he was just a disaster. The fans were often times to hard on him but there were times he deserved every single boo he got. I'll miss his defense. I won't miss him harping to the refs. after every offensive possesion.

Saras. Sad really. I thought at the beginning of this season that he was really starting to get it. In fact I loved when he & Armstrong would come into the game & often times would change the tempo. He's a good passer & a good shooter. He has improved his defense. However he was never as good as advertised & sorry to say this but a lot of his fans hurt his popularity more than they helped it here. But he was never as bad as some of us were saying either. I also wish him well in G.S. & I have a feeling that Saras will retire from Europe not the NBA. Not that he is not good enough, but I think he will go back to where he is more comfortable after this contract is up.

Josh Powell. Sorry fellas, but I blame Rick for us not knowing what Josh could offer. Instead of keeping 5 point guards on the active roster he should have put Powell in there for more than a few token apperances. In the pre-season he looke very good. Not a star but somebody who looked like they could have helped on the glass & some post defense. But Ricks fascination with playing his small forwards at the 4 & even the 5 spot never let this happen. I don't think Josh will ever amount to much in the NBA but I think he could have been & still could be the 3rd or 4th big man on an NBA team.

Overall let me just say this.

I love the trade from the aspect that it says to me that TPTB are not content.

That is all that I ever ask of them.

But on top of that I actually like the trade itself & what it does to the team.

So starting Saturday everybody starts fresh with me. That means J.O. gets a clean slate as well. I will now try my best to put the post game 8 argument out of my mind.

Maybe the team hasn't ever really tried to give him the players to elevate his game before. Well with this trade I think they have.

So my avatar changes & my sig. changes.

What other changes will come?

Well said. Agree with all of it. I'll miss Al and I think it would have worked in the long run, but something needed to be done to shake this bunch up. And I think Danny is ready to be the full time 3 guy, so losing Al won't hurt much.
Dumping Jackson was the highlight of this trade for me. NOT because I hate the guy or don't think he's an adequate player, but he just needed a fresh start somewhere. Once somebody becomes the "local whipping boy" it seldom changes. I think for a lot of Indy fans, that is the part that opened the drapes on that sunlight.
Indifferent on Saras. I worry we'll miss his shooting, but happy to see Orien get those minutes. I think we need a defensive presence back there very badly.
What the new guys will bring I have no idea. I've never been impressed with them (except Ike is very short spurts) but then I've only seen them a few times.
I like what I hear about Dunleavy being a fundamentals guy. We need more of that so maybe he'll be a bigger factor here than in a wide open offense.
I read that Murphy has been hurt so maybe that's why his stats are down so much.
Worries me how openly they both get bashed in the local press and by their own coach! THat doesn't happen for no reason....................................

PacerMan
01-19-2007, 01:55 PM
I'm with Peck on this deal..............I LOVE IT......

After talking to a few people DOWNTOWN it seems that everyone in Pacer land that collects a paycheck from the Simons is very POSITIVE of this deal.

Now it gives the Franchise some breathing room from the fans that kept saying they would stay away until the "bad element" had been extracted. Whats funny is that most "casual pacer fans" look at this trade and start reading other teams blogs and see what kind of stiffs that Golden State has sent us. Most of the "casual" pacer fans listen to sports radio as their bible and believe what those "sportswriters" say. To say that I have no room for sportswriters on sports radio would be a lie, I need my afternoon chuckle from these Knuckleheads more than anyone.

This trade is what it is:

Troy Murphy is your rich mans Brad Miller with a Norte Dame education compared to a Purdue education.

It's not Purdue, but a Notre Dame education is nothing to sneeze at. :)
And Murphy is definitely a poor man's Miller.

Naptown_Seth
01-19-2007, 02:01 PM
i like this, i think alot more people will get behind this team now.
Give it a month. Everyone loves the greener grass, that's why it's a cliche.

58% FG by Miami, 10% worse than any other Miami game the last few years. How in the world do the defensive aces Dun and Murphy solve that?

Would things really have finished better with Foster off the floor in those final minutes last night? Looked like he was saving their butt from a double digit loss.

Shawne is no defensive stud yet, but will Dunleavy actually matchup better on defense than Shawne did last night?

Golden State is 21st in opponents FG%. The Pacers are 10th. GS is LAST in PPG allowed, the Pacers are again 10th. And the Pacers have a better rebounding PCT at both ends of the court.


If the Pacers had lost that Miami game due to a lack of offense, then I could see the hope. But I'm not looking forward to teams going 55% against the Pacers on a regular basis and them just losing games with higher scores.


And in fact if you look at the scoring and spreading the floor, consider this: the Pacers just sent 9.3 3PA in December at a 41% rate to the Warriors.

January it was 8.5 3PA at a 40% rate. For all the complaints about Jackson, the last month and a half he's shot the 3 around 35-36% which is his normal rate.

Coming back from 3
DEC - 6.8 3PA at 34%
JAN - 4.0 3PA at 32% (without McLeod's 3 for 4 in 2 appearances for the month, goes to 4.6 3PA at 37.5% with it)

So less defense, weaker threats from 3 including less attempts despite the higher tempo of play. And even in the per 48 minutes Dunleavy's assists aren't outpacing Jackson's by more than about 1 per 48.


That's the concern. A lot less defense, less 3pt threats total, and not the rebounding impact that is implied (Al, bad as he was, still put up modest RPG numbers that are better than Dun's per 48, Murph doesn't outrebound Foster if he replaces him).

All this for maybe 1-2 extra assists per game out of Dunleavy?


And let's not overlook the Murph injury concerns in comparison to the health of Jack and Al the last 3-4 years.


I'm glad people like the warm fuzzies, but I want some answers in regards to how this improves the team's ability to physically win games. If they don't win at least 11 games in this upcoming stretch of mostly home games this team is going to be headed for real trouble when the schedule gets tough again (and boy does it).

BillS
01-19-2007, 03:34 PM
Seth, I understand what you are saying, but I think you're looking at this as if the individual players summed together make up the result.

That isn't the case.

I really don't care about a high percentage at 3 point shooting if the missed shots lead to an opponents score.

I'd rather see a high percentage of midrange shots that allow us to open up the middle and get the ball into the paint more easily, leading to a higher OVERALL percentage of shots.

GS is low in opponent FG% ratings because <i>Nellie doesn't coach defense</i>. So we can't just say it's because MDJ or Murphy suck as defenders - it could be as much because the team defense is non-existant.

Yes, on the face of it we gave up the higher-powered individual players. However, if the players we get are able to fulfill some roles the ones we gave up were unable to fill, we still get what we want out of the trade.

RWB
01-19-2007, 03:43 PM
Yes, on the face of it we gave up the higher-powered individual players. However, if the players we get are able to fulfill some roles the ones we gave up were unable to fill, we still get what we want out of the trade.

Good point, I remember personally I about had a fit when the Ps traded a two time 6th man in Detlef Schrempf for DMcKey. Trade turned out good for both teams.

rexnom
01-19-2007, 04:05 PM
Give it a month. Everyone loves the greener grass, that's why it's a cliche.

58% FG by Miami, 10% worse than any other Miami game the last few years. How in the world do the defensive aces Dun and Murphy solve that?

Would things really have finished better with Foster off the floor in those final minutes last night? Looked like he was saving their butt from a double digit loss.

Shawne is no defensive stud yet, but will Dunleavy actually matchup better on defense than Shawne did last night?

Golden State is 21st in opponents FG%. The Pacers are 10th. GS is LAST in PPG allowed, the Pacers are again 10th. And the Pacers have a better rebounding PCT at both ends of the court.


If the Pacers had lost that Miami game due to a lack of offense, then I could see the hope. But I'm not looking forward to teams going 55% against the Pacers on a regular basis and them just losing games with higher scores.


And in fact if you look at the scoring and spreading the floor, consider this: the Pacers just sent 9.3 3PA in December at a 41% rate to the Warriors.

January it was 8.5 3PA at a 40% rate. For all the complaints about Jackson, the last month and a half he's shot the 3 around 35-36% which is his normal rate.

Coming back from 3
DEC - 6.8 3PA at 34%
JAN - 4.0 3PA at 32% (without McLeod's 3 for 4 in 2 appearances for the month, goes to 4.6 3PA at 37.5% with it)

So less defense, weaker threats from 3 including less attempts despite the higher tempo of play. And even in the per 48 minutes Dunleavy's assists aren't outpacing Jackson's by more than about 1 per 48.


That's the concern. A lot less defense, less 3pt threats total, and not the rebounding impact that is implied (Al, bad as he was, still put up modest RPG numbers that are better than Dun's per 48, Murph doesn't outrebound Foster if he replaces him).

All this for maybe 1-2 extra assists per game out of Dunleavy?


And let's not overlook the Murph injury concerns in comparison to the health of Jack and Al the last 3-4 years.


I'm glad people like the warm fuzzies, but I want some answers in regards to how this improves the team's ability to physically win games. If they don't win at least 11 games in this upcoming stretch of mostly home games this team is going to be headed for real trouble when the schedule gets tough again (and boy does it).
It's almost as if the coach in Golden State told his players never to play defense...give it some time you too, Seth, I think these players can function well in a good defensive scheme.

Also, as much as Jack's D and intensity will be missed, Sarunas and Al weren't exactly defensive stoppers.

v_d_g
01-19-2007, 05:21 PM
Yo, SETH, take a deep breath.

You can't take a single game, where MIAMI shot UNCHARACTERISTICALLY LIGHTS OUT, and make it an issue.

When's the last time you saw Jason Williams with that stroke (9-12) ---like, NEVER?

And did Doleac miss (5-6)?

Let's see: Doleac 48% for the year; Williams 39%.

Can't beat ***, no matter what you do.

I will say this much, however, I definitely want to see more of Shawne Williams, and Granger and Daniels need to play MAJOR roles.

P.S. if the refs don't blow the kicked ball (Mourning) call, the Pacers probably win.

Fool
01-19-2007, 05:24 PM
Williams shot like that in the Pistons series durring last years playoffs.
It was hard to watch.

AesopRockOn
01-19-2007, 05:50 PM
Yo, SETH, take a deep breath.

You can't take a single game, where MIAMI shot UNCHARACTERISTICALLY LIGHTS OUT, and make it an issue.

When's the last time you saw Jason Williams with that stroke (9-12) ---like, NEVER?

And did Doleac miss (5-6)?

Let's see: Doleac 48% for the year; Williams 39%.

Can't beat ***, no matter what you do.

I will say this much, however, I definitely want to see more of Shawne Williams, and Granger and Daniels need to play MAJOR roles.

P.S. if the refs don't blow the kicked ball (Mourning) call, the Pacers probably win.

Doleac was left wide open for free throw line jumpers.

arenn
01-19-2007, 06:34 PM
It's tough for me to get excited about a trade designed to build a team around a guy who is a) IMO, not a legitimate superstar player and b) may not be around much longer anyway. If JO were MJ, I'd be ok with it. But he's far down from there. The last thing the team needs to be doing is stroking his ego - he needs to be under pressure to produce. Don't get me wrong. I think JO is a well above average player who'd be an asset to almost any team. But he's not the guy I believe you can build a championship caliber team around. As I said at the forum party, he's Scottie Pippen, not Michael Jordan.

On the other hand, I'm glad to see management not wait till the offseason to make a move. I'm happy to see Jax gone (though who knows he may be back to serve out his jail term by the end of the year). Harrington, as much as I like him, obviously wasn't working out. It's hard to see how we've hurt ourselves with this.

Roferr
01-19-2007, 06:42 PM
Give it a month. Everyone loves the greener grass, that's why it's a cliche.

58% FG by Miami, 10% worse than any other Miami game the last few years. How in the world do the defensive aces Dun and Murphy solve that?

Would things really have finished better with Foster off the floor in those final minutes last night? Looked like he was saving their butt from a double digit loss.

Shawne is no defensive stud yet, but will Dunleavy actually matchup better on defense than Shawne did last night?

Golden State is 21st in opponents FG%. The Pacers are 10th. GS is LAST in PPG allowed, the Pacers are again 10th. And the Pacers have a better rebounding PCT at both ends of the court.


If the Pacers had lost that Miami game due to a lack of offense, then I could see the hope. But I'm not looking forward to teams going 55% against the Pacers on a regular basis and them just losing games with higher scores.


And in fact if you look at the scoring and spreading the floor, consider this: the Pacers just sent 9.3 3PA in December at a 41% rate to the Warriors.

January it was 8.5 3PA at a 40% rate. For all the complaints about Jackson, the last month and a half he's shot the 3 around 35-36% which is his normal rate.

Coming back from 3
DEC - 6.8 3PA at 34%
JAN - 4.0 3PA at 32% (without McLeod's 3 for 4 in 2 appearances for the month, goes to 4.6 3PA at 37.5% with it)

So less defense, weaker threats from 3 including less attempts despite the higher tempo of play. And even in the per 48 minutes Dunleavy's assists aren't outpacing Jackson's by more than about 1 per 48.


That's the concern. A lot less defense, less 3pt threats total, and not the rebounding impact that is implied (Al, bad as he was, still put up modest RPG numbers that are better than Dun's per 48, Murph doesn't outrebound Foster if he replaces him).

All this for maybe 1-2 extra assists per game out of Dunleavy?


And let's not overlook the Murph injury concerns in comparison to the health of Jack and Al the last 3-4 years.


I'm glad people like the warm fuzzies, but I want some answers in regards to how this improves the team's ability to physically win games. If they don't win at least 11 games in this upcoming stretch of mostly home games this team is going to be headed for real trouble when the schedule gets tough again (and boy does it).

Damn Seth, why be so negative!!!

At least, give the new team a chance. You haven't even seen them play yet and you're already bad-mouthing their production. You're trying to play the game on paper and it's just not done that way.

If the Pacers win 11 games of the upcoming stretch that would be phenomenal, with working 4 new players in, almost like pre-season again.

CableKC
01-19-2007, 06:51 PM
The feeling after this trade ( or what we could consider to be a major change to the makeup of the team ) seems to be different then the major changes that occured in the past ( like compared to after the trade for Harrington or Sarunas during the offseasons or the jettisoning of Artest for Peja ).

I pointed this out before in the Post-Game thread....but didn't the feel of the team and the overall game ( both in a positive manner ) seem different to you guys?

brichard
01-19-2007, 08:12 PM
Like all trades, this trade offers some opportunity and some risk. The opportunities are that we have some addition by subraction (Jackson) and the opportunity to get some people who can score. It is pretty amazing how poor the Pacers have been in shooting. The risk is obviously with the rather bloated contracts that now reside in our payroll.

But, you don't get rid of a problem (Jackson) without taking on somebody else's problem (salaries.) I don't like Mike Dunleavy. It may be because he reminds me of his dad. Perhaps it is because he played for Duke. I have no basketball reasons, I just don't like him.

I've always liked Murphy and unless I am dreaming, he typically likes to light us up like a Christmas tree. I really know nothing about Ike or McLeod, but people seem to be really high on Ike. And the best news is we didn't really lose anything. When I say we didn't lose anything, I don't mean we didn't lose good players. I just don't think they were well matched due to styles of play or just reaching a point where they needed a new opportunity.

I do think this trade makes us worse defensively, which is the oddest part of all. Carlisle tends to like defensive minded guys, and Al and Jax had to be in our top 5 defenders. It seems like we are receiving more offense in this trade.

On a positive note, it has perked my interest. Mediocrity is boring and it has least awoken my thoughts to what is going on with the Pacers.

BlueNGold
01-19-2007, 08:26 PM
There seems to be a lot of concern about losing D in this trade.

First, losing Sarunas helps our D.

Second, Powell wasn't even playing.

Third, Harrington is not a good defender. Not at SF and not at his more natural position of PF.

Fourth. OK, Jack is a good defensive player. However, Quis is very good. Granger is sometimes better. Marshall is a very good defender. Greene is awesome and might get more minutes with Jack gone....even though he's a PG.

We lost a little bit, but seriously...it's not going to make a difference. Don't be confused by Miami's good shooting last night. We still have enough defenders.

The biggest impact will be on offense, unless Dun and Murphy play 30mpg. If they are both starters, we are choosing to keep our good defenders on the bench. That's very different than not having enough defenders.

speakout4
01-19-2007, 08:43 PM
Every time I think that this is a really bad trade I remind myslef what we gave up. Al was only interested in promoting his own game; his lack of defense was terrible; getting rid of Al lets Danny play SF and play it better than Al could; Jax is a nightmare waiting for the next deep sleep. The major loss was Sarunas who found a way to contribute. Sure Murphy and Dun are not any better players but are probably not really worse all things considered. The worst is that their contracts suck. Ike will probably be a plus and the real plus that everyone overlooks is that Donnie will probably live a few years longer now that Jax, Artest, and even Al are out of his life.

Now I am really whistling in the dark here but perhaps leaving GS has to be a plus for a player's career. All those losses for what?

Big Smooth
01-19-2007, 08:51 PM
Brother Peck,

Short & sweet version - I agree with you 100% on Murphy and Dunleavy.

And I certainly hold no ill feelings toward Baby Al, Cabbages or SJax but I think moving on will be the best move for them.

It's certainly a new season now. For me, the 20 game rule starts over now.

PacerMan
01-19-2007, 08:54 PM
Doleac was left wide open for free throw line jumpers.

I think most of them were well beyond 15'.

Alpolloloco
01-19-2007, 09:19 PM
And he was guarded by our best defender JO, who didn't want to step out to contest these shots.

owl
01-19-2007, 10:06 PM
I believe several things were accomplished with this trade.

1-Danny Granger will flourish
2-A better midrange game will develope with Granger and Quis and
Murphy playing
3-Jackson is gone
4-Chemistry will improve
5-A more watchable TEAM GAME
6-If JO does leave the Pacers are left with very good young talent
to start over. I believe this is unlikely.
7-With MDJ maybe the number of bad, lazy passes will decrease

As you can guess I like this trade.

rexnom
01-19-2007, 10:15 PM
And he was guarded by our best defender JO, who didn't want to step out to contest these shots.
The entire point was to bring JO out, which can't happen because he is so crucial to stopping penetration. They only did manage to stop penetration when they forced Wade to pass the ball. Unfortunately both Williams and Doleac nailed shots all night that I doubt they would make consistently.

mike_D
01-20-2007, 02:54 AM
I believe several things were accomplished with this trade.

1-Danny Granger will flourish
2-A better midrange game will develope with Granger and Quis and
Murphy playing
3-Jackson is gone
4-Chemistry will improve
5-A more watchable TEAM GAME
6-If JO does leave the Pacers are left with very good young talent
to start over. I believe this is unlikely.
7-With MDJ maybe the number of bad, lazy passes will decrease

As you can guess I like this trade.

I would also say this trade will allow Daniels to flourish.They just got rid of the starting two guard and the main backup pg.Either way Daniels wins.They could start Daniels at two guard and he gets big minutes or if they decide to start Dunlevy then Daniels comes off the bench and becomes a combo guard splitting time at pg/sg.

owl
01-20-2007, 08:11 AM
Mike, I agree with you on the Quis issue. He is a midrange game player
and that is badly overlooked part of the NBA game. How about the dunk he tried to lay on ZO the other night. He was way up there but it is hard to get
through ZO's big mitt.

aceace
01-20-2007, 03:20 PM
Defense? I don't think it hurt us IMO, but time will tell.
I don't remember our defense being any good all year other then JO. Jax had some good defensive games. All in all we've given up way too many points night in and night out.