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Evan_The_Dude
01-18-2007, 09:56 PM
I liked what I saw from Daniels, Granger, and Williams. Foster was clutch down the stretch. Granger needs to remember that he's now the #2 option. He played well tonight, but at times he was still a little passive. Props to Daniels, he was off the hook and he wasn't just jacking up shots, he was putting up shots he's fully capable of making. Way to step up. Another moral victory...

odeez
01-18-2007, 09:56 PM
Nice game by the Pacers

pizza guy
01-18-2007, 10:00 PM
What an absolutely hideous call on the over and back that really changed the momentum of the game. Nevertheless, a great comeback, with great effort. And, did anyone else absolutely LOVE to see the rookie take and make such a big 3-pt shot?

Can't wait to see this Saturday though, with the full compliment of players.

Destined4Greatness
01-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Sadly this isn't the first time the refs flat out screwed us in the last couple of weeks. Remember Dallas.

Jermaniac
01-18-2007, 10:08 PM
The team fought hard with half a roster missing. Would have been better if the refs didnt cheat us on that call but hey what can you do when Stern made Wade the boss of all the refs.

Evan_The_Dude
01-18-2007, 10:11 PM
One thing this does prove is that Granger can put up numbers playing from the 2 position -- an idea I wasn't exactly sold on. I think they plan on starting Dunleavy, but I think they should start a combo of Granger and Daniels instead. They'd get us off to a quick start for sure.

owl
01-18-2007, 10:11 PM
Granger starting and having offense run for him is the greatest thing to come of this trade. Plus we get to see Marquis and if he really does have a game.
I can see that the Pacers still need to move some players. Dunleavy, Murphy,
and Diogu are going to play and that takes away from Shawne for sure.
Can we trade Dunleavy for a pick? To the Clippers? Diogu and maybe Murphy
fill a role but not Dunleavy.

Aw Heck
01-18-2007, 10:14 PM
I think most of us expected a loss tonight with the Pacers being short-handed. But I think a lot of us were impressed with what we saw tonight, especially from Granger and Marquis. We're beginning to see what this team could look like without JO, Harrington, and Jackson taking most of the shots. We're starting to see what others can do with more shots.

Good effort tonight. Sure there were way too many turnovers, bad defense, and the Heat were just hitting everything, but the Pacers hung in there.

Unclebuck
01-18-2007, 10:16 PM
I have some positive things to say about the game tonight and I'll get to that. But first I have to do this.

Jamaal Tinsley tonight was an embarrassment to the game of basketball. He should be suspended 5 games for conduct determental to winning. Here he is one of the veterans, here is is one of the leaders, here he is supposedly trying to help the new look Pacers perhaps win a game and what does he do - he acts like the game doesn't matter. I'm ashamed he's on my favorite team. I'm ashamed and disgusted by his lack of effort, intensity and heart. I would have bench him about 4 minutes into the game tonight. There were several situations tonight where he just gave up on the defensive end.

I can accept almost anything - look I loved Artest - I didn't hate Jax as much as many of you did - I explained away the brawl, I explained away the Club Rio thing, but I will not explain away what I saw from JT tonight a total and utter embarassment.

I cannot state how strongly I feel about JT's performance tonight - a complete lack of effort.

I am disgusted.


OK, enough of that. I could go on though.


Tonight we saw what Daniels can do. One of the big reasons the pacers came back in the 4th is because Marquis was creating the offense, he was driving - it looked to me like Rick took the ball out of Tinsley's hands and more or less forced Marquis to be aggressive and it really paid off.

Tonight we saw what happens when we get dribble penetration - it opens up the boards for Jeff, we also saw what happens when Jeff is not blocked out - the 4th quarter almost reminded me of the Pistons playoff game 2 from 2005.

Granger also was excellent tonight even though twice he didn't seem to know what play was being run. But his consistant offense kept us in the game.

I was happy for Shawne that he hit that three - that should help his confidence

OK, I'm going to stop right there.

I assume you all heard Doug Collins say that he expects Murphy and Dunleavy to start with JO, Granger and Tinsley. My feelings right now is there is one more player we have to get rid of and I'd love to do it before the trade deadline - we'll see.

Coop
01-18-2007, 10:20 PM
I agree 100% with UB.


As far as Murph and Dunleavy starting together, I don't like it. I still think we should find a way to get Mo-Pete from Toronto while finding somewhere to send MD.

Fireball Kid
01-18-2007, 10:27 PM
Jamaal Tinsley tonight was an embarrassment to the game of basketball. He should be suspended 5 games for conduct determental to winning. Here he is one of the veterans, here is is one of the leaders, here he is supposedly trying to help the new look Pacers perhaps win a game and what does he do - he acts like the game doesn't matter. I'm ashamed he's on my favorite team. I'm ashamed and disgusted by his lack of effort, intensity and heart. I would have bench him about 4 minutes into the game tonight. There were several situations tonight where he just gave up on the defensive end.

I can accept almost anything - look I loved Artest - I didn't hate Jax as much as many of you did - I explained away the brawl, I explained away the Club Rio thing, but I will not explain away what I saw from JT tonight a total and utter embarassment.

I cannot state how strongly I feel about JT's performance tonight - a complete lack of effort.

I am disgusted.




I'm disgusted with him as well. He wasn't always like this. After his rookie season, I thought "Man, this guy is gonna be a top 10-15 point guard for sure". But he has just changed the way he approaches the game. His decision making, his turnovers, his shooting, his defense is all terrible.

The sad truth is that he will more then likely remain a Pacer for a long time because seriously, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WOULD WANT THIS GUY ON THEIR TEAM?

Nobody, that's who. This team needs a new point guard and quick.

Cobol Sam
01-18-2007, 10:28 PM
I like the idea of Dunleavy starting over Daniels. I think Daniels is more able to create his own shot off the bench while Dunleavy will create for the starting unit taking pressure of off JT.

UB I like what you had to say on the upside of the game tonight. When I look at our team I see we a lot of emerging talent in Granger, Daniels, Williams, and Diogu. Orien Greene had some good minutes tonight and I could see him turning into a rotation player. We are invested in the future with those guys.

My biggest concern is the defense. Our team defense I think is just fine, especially with JO in the paint. What we no longer seem to have is a guy to play the premiere wing players. Danny is sufficient and Daniels is OKAY. I just hope its enough to get things done.

Shack80
01-18-2007, 10:29 PM
That game sucked in many ways, but the play of Quis and Granger mae me feel alot better about the trade. I was pretty much ok with the trade, but now I think at worst we should be better. I like the Pacers better today. Love seeing Granger get the minuters and looks, I like him as a big part of the future. Now I can't wait to see what the new guys will bring.

v_d_g
01-18-2007, 10:30 PM
Got my first look, abbreviated though it might have been, of Shawne Williams tonight. Though the look was brief, the following was EVIDENT (and YES I did has my glasses on):

1) he can shoot

2) he's athletic and can go get the ball

3) he doesn't look like he (desperately) needs MORE STRENGTH and he certainly didn't appear WEAK when he went over everyone for the JAM PUTBACK. In fact, the kid is a specimen.

He didn't appear particularly overmatched to me UNLESS of course we're gauging his strength or lack of in comparison to a YOUNG KARL MALONE. Is Anthony Mason his matchup on every team? wtf?

Why is this kid riding the pine and having to deal with all the comments (from Bird and Carlisle and others) that he's not ready yet? He's as ready as any other rookie out there. Let him play. Put him out there with Granger and Quis. Turn them loose. Let them run, shoot and board. Tired of this midwest slowdown, take a charge, grunt BBALL.

It was a pleasure watching a game featuring the Pacers and actually seeing ATHLETES out there.

What's next, Dallas Smith not tripping over himself on a pattern and actually catching a pass when it counts?

pacerDU
01-18-2007, 10:34 PM
I completely agree with you regarding Tinsley UB. I turned to my buddy during the game and said Tinsley may be the worst starting PG in the NBA. Not in regard to talent, but in regard to heart and attitude. He's just horrendous in these aspects.

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed that at one stage Tinsley got something in his eye, at which point he deliberately fouled so that he could stop the action. I was shocked. To me, you play on with one eye (it's only one defensive possesion) and then call a timeout once that sequence is over if it's bothering you that badly. He essentially gave the Heat 2 points as they went to the line for the foul.

I'd love to package Tinsley and either Dunleavy or Murphy for a servicable PG or swingman. Only problem is, no one will want to take on these contracts.

Other than that, the rest of the team showed a lot of heart to comeback in the 4th and it was great seeing some of the other guys get opportunities.

Fireball Kid
01-18-2007, 10:34 PM
BTW, great game by Granger and Daniels. Daniels had a couple of bad turnovers, but I was overall impressed by his performance. If Granger can drive to the basket and finish more efficiently, he will be an 18-19 ppg player in no time.

If you ask me, start Daniels at point and bench Tinsley.

Coop
01-18-2007, 10:35 PM
What's next, Dallas Smith not tripping over himself on a pattern and actually catching a pass when it counts?


I'm assuming you mean Dallas Clark. I get your point though

Unclebuck
01-18-2007, 10:36 PM
I thought the heats defense was excellent in playing the passing lanes they really pressured us into a lot of turnovers. However I liked the Pacers ball movement without Jax and Al - those two tended to hold the ball and take bad shots -

Overall I am encouraged about where the franchise is and where it is going - just one more move, please

Destined4Greatness
01-18-2007, 10:48 PM
I'm assuming you mean Dallas Clark. I get your point though

I don't get his point, as I recall Dallas Clark made the most important/difficult catch of the game. If not for that drive we would have only needed one slip up to go from a 12-6 win to a 13-12 loss. Clark kept that drive alive.

BlueNGold
01-18-2007, 10:50 PM
I don't think people who want to see Tinsley gone will be disappointed. That is on the drawing board and Tinsley knows it. It's just a matter of time.

As for tonight, it is clear that Granger is snatching that #2 option now that the two black holes have gone back to outer space. This might be the best thing about this trade. We now have a legit #2 option who, with a little more seasoning, will be more consistent and effective than Jack or Al.

Quis has clearly been told he has a green light. It's no surprise he had his season high too.

What I like most about what I've seen is better ball movement. There is clearly less selfishness on the floor now. Once we get Dunleavy out there, the passing game might get even better.

Anyone think Dunleavy can play point? How about this lineup?

Dunleavy - PG
Quis - SG
Granger - SF
JO - PF
Foster - C

Dun and Quis are good ball handlers. Dun can shoot ok and is a great passer. Quis and Granger could guard the quicker, high scoring players.

pizza guy
01-18-2007, 10:52 PM
I thought the heats defense was excellent in playing the passing lanes they really pressured us into a lot of turnovers. However I liked the Pacers ball movement without Jax and Al - those two tended to hold the ball and take bad shots -

Overall I am encouraged about where the franchise is and where it is going - just one more move, please

Who?


I was only able to catch the last half of the fourth quarter (the good part) because of work tonight, but I saw some things I really liked. Good ball movement, once it left Tinsley's hands. Good penetration by 'Quis (BTW, why do we need Maggette--another penetrator that can't shoot well outside--when we have a less injury-prone version of him in MD?), and great production from Granger. I understand he played at the 2 tonight? Looks like it worked.

It looked like a team out there tonight. A collective effort to win a ballgame--for the name on the FRONT of the jersey.

Like I said, I missed the bulk of the game, so it's hard for me to comment on Tinsley's attitude tonight, but I will say this: when I read what UB wrote initially, I was absolutely not shocked by it. And, of what I did see (a comeback from 11 down to the end) was in no way Tinsley's doing. I saw 'Quis making plays, Foster coming out of nowhere for three put-backs that were and-1 plays, Danny playing well, JO playing well, two bogus calls (5th foul on JO and over-and-back), and a ballsy shot by a rookie.

And I certainly agree with the last part of this post. Just one more move, please.

purdue101
01-18-2007, 10:54 PM
I have some positive things to say about the game tonight and I'll get to that. But first I have to do this.

Jamaal Tinsley tonight was an embarrassment to the game of basketball. He should be suspended 5 games for conduct determental to winning. Here he is one of the veterans, here is is one of the leaders, here he is supposedly trying to help the new look Pacers perhaps win a game and what does he do - he acts like the game doesn't matter. I'm ashamed he's on my favorite team. I'm ashamed and disgusted by his lack of effort, intensity and heart. I would have bench him about 4 minutes into the game tonight. There were several situations tonight where he just gave up on the defensive end.

I can accept almost anything - look I loved Artest - I didn't hate Jax as much as many of you did - I explained away the brawl, I explained away the Club Rio thing, but I will not explain away what I saw from JT tonight a total and utter embarassment.

I cannot state how strongly I feel about JT's performance tonight - a complete lack of effort.

I am disgusted.


OK, enough of that. I could go on though.


Tonight we saw what Daniels can do. One of the big reasons the pacers came back in the 4th is because Marquis was creating the offense, he was driving - it looked to me like Rick took the ball out of Tinsley's hands and more or less forced Marquis to be aggressive and it really paid off.

Tonight we saw what happens when we get dribble penetration - it opens up the boards for Jeff, we also saw what happens when Jeff is not blocked out - the 4th quarter almost reminded me of the Pistons playoff game 2 from 2005.

Granger also was excellent tonight even though twice he didn't seem to know what play was being run. But his consistant offense kept us in the game.

I was happy for Shawne that he hit that three - that should help his confidence

OK, I'm going to stop right there.

I assume you all heard Doug Collins say that he expects Murphy and Dunleavy to start with JO, Granger and Tinsley. My feelings right now is there is one more player we have to get rid of and I'd love to do it before the trade deadline - we'll see.

i gotta agree with you UB. I've been one of tinsley's biggest fans over the years but he is clearly not the difference maker he used to be. it's great that he has been healthy all year but i am fed up of watching his shameful defense and outside shooting. we are getting killed by dribble penetration by the opposing points. on the other end tinsley can be effective when he gets in the paint but unfortunately he tends to spend more time heaving up garbage around the 3 pt line.

with the addition of two young bigs in murphy and diogu i would love to package tins and harrison for an upgrade in the backcourt. i expect one, if not both of these guys, to be gone by the trade deadline. we are headed in the right direction but like you said - one more deal is needed.

purdue101
01-18-2007, 10:56 PM
Who?


I was only able to catch the last half of the fourth quarter (the good part) because of work tonight, but I saw some things I really liked. Good ball movement, once it left Tinsley's hands. Good penetration by 'Quis (BTW, why do we need Maggette--another penetrator that can't shoot well outside--when we have a less injury-prone version of him in MD?), and great production from Granger. I understand he played at the 2 tonight? Looks like it worked.

It looked like a team out there tonight. A collective effort to win a ballgame--for the name on the FRONT of the jersey.

Like I said, I missed the bulk of the game, so it's hard for me to comment on Tinsley's attitude tonight, but I will say this: when I read what UB wrote initially, I was absolutely not shocked by it. And, of what I did see (a comeback from 11 down to the end) was in no way Tinsley's doing. I saw 'Quis making plays, Foster coming out of nowhere for three put-backs that were and-1 plays, Danny playing well, JO playing well, two bogus calls (5th foul on JO and over-and-back), and a ballsy shot by a rookie.

And I certainly agree with the last part of this post. Just one more move, please.

quis played amazing in the 4th. he is such an effective player when he snakes his way into the paint and pulls up for an 8-10 footer. watching him tonight makes me more comfortable with losing sarunas and possible shipping out tinsley.

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2007, 10:59 PM
Tonight we saw what Daniels can do. One of the big reasons the pacers came back in the 4th is because Marquis was creating the offense, he was driving - it looked to me like Rick took the ball out of Tinsley's hands and more or less forced Marquis to be aggressive and it really paid off.
We already saw this with MD playing some PG a few games ago (with no other PG on the court). Quis is great with the ball and driving.

He's a "scatback", a Barry Sanders driver rather than a head of steam slasher, but it's very effective. I didn't really understand why he hit the doghouse and have been pleased with his game all year. People talk about his ups and downs, but to me its mostly been based on his PT only.

He's not an ace starter IMO, but he's a nice, solid 6th man type that can work the 1-3...you know, pretty much what we thought last summer.


I didn't get to see some of the early 1st and 3rd yet, so no comment on Tins. But I can imagine. I just don't get his game this year. Very odd. Doesn't look like the same guy we saw 2-3 years ago.


Williams is a great draft pick. That shot is feathery soft, pure as new snow. Great touch. And on top of that he plays a pretty smart game. Again, I said this after the Chicago game, and he still looks identical to that. He should play more.


Greene CARRIES ALL THE TIME. He can't handle the ball without carrying. Several of us have complained about it earlier this year and here it was yet again. Ugh. Like the defense, but he needs someone else to bring it up.


Granger. Great offense which I've been saying, still off and on when it comes to the team strategy. Doesn't seem to read the floor as well as Williams, same thing I also thought back around that CHI game. Still surprises me.

But the kid has the ability and I think most of the confidence. He's a guy that by year 4 is going to be near AS level I think.


FOSTER - this was why we complained about those putback misses. Look at the impact they have when he makes them! He even drew fouls with it. Love his energy, especially when he turns it into points like that.


I still thought they could have at least used Jackson out there to boost the defense. It really showed that he was missing, but at least there is some young talent to work with.

I'm just afraid that this team is really heading out of the playoffs but not high enough to get a true superstar impact player (unless by pure luck or draft savvy).

I really do wish another trade was in the works to sort out the balance of the team. Doesn't look like it will happen now unless it doesn't involve the people just brought in (other than 1 for 1 deals).

Quis
01-18-2007, 11:07 PM
Marquis Daniels is, was, and will always be a better basketball player than Stephen Jackson.

Shade
01-18-2007, 11:10 PM
Jamaal Tinsley tonight was an embarrassment to the game of basketball. He should be suspended 5 games for conduct determental to winning.

:laugh:

Destined4Greatness
01-18-2007, 11:13 PM
Marquis Daniels is, was, and will always be a better basketball player than Stephen Jackson.

Except in the effort department. Far more talent, does not always give it his all.

Naptown_Seth
01-18-2007, 11:15 PM
Marquis Daniels is, was, and will always be a better basketball player than Stephen Jackson.

We all know you feel that way.

We also all know that the Heat shot 58% for the game tonight, which is pathetic defense. Not bad. Pathetic.

The comeback from 16 down made this go away in fans' minds, but it shouldn't have. Last year the most they gave up to them was 48% and that was with Ron even. Later after he was dealt they held them to 43% and in Miami. The year before with all the OT games it was similar, even sub 40% at least once.


So tonight there was a serious problem with the defense, it wasn't just a Miami/Wade thing. This was by far the worst they've defended Miami in the last 3 seasons at least.

58% allowed won't win games. It's a miracle it ended this close as it was.

PacerMan
01-18-2007, 11:23 PM
I have some positive things to say about the game tonight and I'll get to that. But first I have to do this.

Jamaal Tinsley tonight was an embarrassment to the game of basketball. He should be suspended 5 games for conduct determental to winning. Here he is one of the veterans, here is is one of the leaders, here he is supposedly trying to help the new look Pacers perhaps win a game and what does he do - he acts like the game doesn't matter. I'm ashamed he's on my favorite team. I'm ashamed and disgusted by his lack of effort, intensity and heart. I would have bench him about 4 minutes into the game tonight. There were several situations tonight where he just gave up on the defensive end.

I can accept almost anything - look I loved Artest - I didn't hate Jax as much as many of you did - I explained away the brawl, I explained away the Club Rio thing, but I will not explain away what I saw from JT tonight a total and utter embarassment.

I cannot state how strongly I feel about JT's performance tonight - a complete lack of effort.

I am disgusted.




Can't say I agree with ANY of what you just said. He sucked for sure, but I didn't see any lack of effort. Now I will agree that 2 air balls on uncontested 3's was pretty disgusting.

PacerMan
01-18-2007, 11:25 PM
Got my first look, abbreviated though it might have been, of Shawne Williams tonight. Though the look was brief, the following was EVIDENT (and YES I did has my glasses on):

1) he can shoot

2) he's athletic and can go get the ball

3) he doesn't look like he (desperately) needs MORE STRENGTH and he certainly didn't appear WEAK when he went over everyone for the JAM PUTBACK. In fact, the kid is a specimen.


The putback jam was totally uncontested. Nobody boxed out and he came from the side while everyone was out front.

Shack80
01-18-2007, 11:26 PM
I like the idea of a Tinman and Harrison for a Guard trade. Neve thought I would say that. I always thought Tins would be a god aurd and until recently thought Harrison had a huge potential. I was wrong, please move them. Mostly David, Tinsley has at least been healthy.

Unclebuck
01-18-2007, 11:26 PM
Can't say I agree with ANY of what you just said. He sucked for sure, but I didn't see any lack of effort. Now I will agree that 2 air balls on uncontested 3's was pretty disgusting.

To be honest I missed probably 10-15% of the game and until you just posted that I had no idea he airballed 2 threes. So none of my comments in my earlier post had anything to do with the airballs.

Hicks
01-18-2007, 11:28 PM
We all know you feel that way.

We also all know that the Heat shot 58% for the game tonight, which is pathetic defense. Not bad. Pathetic.

The comeback from 16 down made this go away in fans' minds, but it shouldn't have. Last year the most they gave up to them was 48% and that was with Ron even. Later after he was dealt they held them to 43% and in Miami. The year before with all the OT games it was similar, even sub 40% at least once.


So tonight there was a serious problem with the defense, it wasn't just a Miami/Wade thing. This was by far the worst they've defended Miami in the last 3 seasons at least.

58% allowed won't win games. It's a miracle it ended this close as it was.

58% is awful, but I don't think that was all us. Miami was on fire tonight, and it reminded me of (I don't remember which) a game during the Pistons series last year where they just torched Detroit offensively, and we all know how they play D. If I had to guess, on a normal night (for Miami) with the defense we were playing, they'd be shooting about 48%. Which while not great, is not nearly as awful as what we saw tonight.

Quis
01-18-2007, 11:32 PM
We all know you feel that way.

We also all know that the Heat shot 58% for the game tonight, which is pathetic defense. Not bad. Pathetic.

The comeback from 16 down made this go away in fans' minds, but it shouldn't have. Last year the most they gave up to them was 48% and that was with Ron even. Later after he was dealt they held them to 43% and in Miami. The year before with all the OT games it was similar, even sub 40% at least once.


So tonight there was a serious problem with the defense, it wasn't just a Miami/Wade thing. This was by far the worst they've defended Miami in the last 3 seasons at least.

58% allowed won't win games. It's a miracle it ended this close as it was.

PG Jason Williams 9-12
C Alonzo Mourning 5-8
C Michael Doleac 5-6


Don't blame Marquis.

Team Indy
01-18-2007, 11:38 PM
I thought the heats defense was excellent in playing the passing lanes they really pressured us into a lot of turnovers. However I liked the Pacers ball movement without Jax and Al - those two tended to hold the ball and take bad shots -

Overall I am encouraged about where the franchise is and where it is going - just one more move, please

And the new players are not going to hog the ball either. Most of the ball movement was nice, and maybe JO should receive the ball off ball movement, instead of setting up stall in a fixed spot to receive it. Then he might shoot a higher percentage. I was more confident watching Daniels shoot than seeing JO make his move.

NZPacer
01-18-2007, 11:41 PM
Except in the effort department. Far more talent, does not always give it his all.

I have to disagree with you there. While Jack may criticised due to his questionable decision-making at times, one thing you can't fault him for is his intensity - he gives 100% every night.

Destined4Greatness
01-18-2007, 11:42 PM
I have to disagree with you there. While Jack may criticised due to his questionable decision-making at times, one thing you can't fault him for is his intensity - he gives 100% every night.

Thats what I was saying, Jack gives it 100%, Daniels not always.

Anthem
01-18-2007, 11:46 PM
Except in the effort department. Far more talent, does not always give it his all.
Technically, neither does Jack. But don't confuse Daniels' laid-back demeanor as a lack of effort.

Quis
01-18-2007, 11:46 PM
Thats what I was saying, Jack gives it 100%, Daniels not always.

How do you figure? I wouldn't exactly call jacking up 20 footer after 20 footer giving 100%. I think I saw Quis drive to the basket more times tonight than I've seen from Jackson in the past month.

Unclebuck
01-18-2007, 11:47 PM
One thing that I haven't seen anyone mention about the trade - is the effect it is going to have on Baston.

Two things are working against him now.

1) Saras is gone - they had great chemistry and worked great together.

2) more importantly with the Pacers adding another big guy (Al leaves but Ike and Murph come in) there aren't going to be any minutes for Baston. Jeff, JO, Murph and Ike will take every power forward and center minute there is. There are only 96 minutes available. JO is going to get 36. That leaves 60 for Ike, Jeff and Murph - that is only 20 minutes a piece.

Of course all this applies to Harrison as well.

Edit: why I put this in a post game thread I'll never know

Bball
01-18-2007, 11:48 PM
My feelings right now is there is one more player we have to get rid of and I'd love to do it before the trade deadline - we'll see.

UB,
I just don't see how getting rid of Greene will make that much difference to you.


-Bball

Anthem
01-18-2007, 11:52 PM
UB, I just don't see how getting rid of Greene will make that much difference to you.
:loser: He's talking about Keith McLeod. Duh.

Destined4Greatness
01-18-2007, 11:54 PM
Since when did driving to the basket=Effort. Look Daniels is talented enough that if he had been trying all year, we more than likely would have notice him more often, and would have better stats he just has that much talent.

Shack80
01-18-2007, 11:58 PM
I don't think that is fair, I dont recall that ,many opps for Quis to play the majority of the game, where he had to be a major opption, Perhaps judgement needs to be withheld a bit? Does not seem honest to compare anything we saw tonight, since 4 players are gone. Thisgame wa an anomly interesting o watch, but not something to judge. Lets wait a ew weeks.

Destined4Greatness
01-19-2007, 12:01 AM
His FG% dropped almost 10% points, and his TO ratio went from around 2 to 1, to about the same. Those stats have nothing to do with how many minutes you get per game, they have to do with what you do in teh time you do get. The fact of the matter Daniels wasn't playing to his level, and that streak lasted too long for it to be a simple bad stint, it had to be an effort issue. Everybody said Jack would have the problem coming off the bench looked like Daniels might have beeen the one with the problem.

rimock31
01-19-2007, 12:18 AM
Seems we can all agree that Tinsley is reverting to his usual horrible self, which only means that he's soon to go down with another mysterious injury for the rest of the season. Our problem, we don't have anyone remotely good to back him up. I still don't get this trade. It seems like all we have on this team is 3,4, and 5s and barely any backcourt players who can make an impact, let alone take a 3 pt shot...i only hope theres a trade for a good point guard in the works . If not, I'll go out and say that Pacers should have given up Foster or Harrison instead of Sarunas since clearly we have enough guys who can play inside.

Unclebuck
01-19-2007, 12:18 AM
I like these comments from Ron Rothstein


http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/quotes_070118.html
HEAT COACH RON ROTHSTEIN

“We won ! A win is a win is a win. They do a great job against us, for whatever reason, of not going away. They don’t go away.”
"Jeff Foster had three three-point plays in the fourth quarter. He had six offensive rebounds, four in the fourth quarter. Jeff is a great offensive rebounder. That is how he makes his living. I don’t mean good, he is a great offensive rebounder. We just lost him. We didn’t sink and fill; we didn’t put a body on him. If you do that he will absolutely kill you.

rimock31
01-19-2007, 12:19 AM
Oh, and whoever was saying Jack always gave 100% has to be on crack

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-19-2007, 12:39 AM
Most of what I wanted to say about this game has already been said so Ill try to add something new.

Being the first Pacers game I've seen all season I was surprised by the number of people I didn't recognize. I caught myself more than once saying 'Who the hell was that?'. Even so, as a whole these Pacers don't look much different from last years, at least in their play. When they share the ball the offense looks great and everyones' shots fall better than when they try to do it alone. I still don't see the ability to run effectively.

And for the love of God someone teach Foster the idea of the pumpfake. That would solve half of his problems right there. He still played great though, I love Feisty.

imawhat
01-19-2007, 02:10 AM
Seems we can all agree that Tinsley is reverting to his usual horrible self, which only means that he's soon to go down with another mysterious injury for the rest of the season.


This is NOT going to be a popular opinion around here after tonight's game, but I think Tinsley's problems are "fixable".


I think what we saw tonight shows Tinsley's key problem; lack of faith in teammates. I know he was forcing these shots tonight because he took the responsibility to be the #2 scorer onto himself. We see Mel Mel the Abuser when he loses trust, and tonight he lost it because we lost two starters and he wasn't comfortable with the lineup. Up until tonight he'd played his best basketball of the year this week. Not a single forced shot, and I'd even go as far as to say he passed too much. But tonight was a complete 180.

I think Tinsley has some real trust issues, and maybe I'm wrong in thinking this, but I think he can be just fine. And he's shown it.

imawhat
01-19-2007, 02:14 AM
Greene CARRIES ALL THE TIME. He can't handle the ball without carrying. Several of us have complained about it earlier this year and here it was yet again. Ugh. Like the defense, but he needs someone else to bring it up.


He's been called for the carry twice now, and I'm surprised it isn't called on most every possession. He has looked better with dribbling the past two games.


I really, really think he's earned a spot in the rotation with his play of late. He was a defensive stud tonight. He didn't stay in front of Wade very well, but his impact was obvious once again. He forced several bad passes from the Heat, and he pressured the defense by bringing the ball up court fast. Granger gets props for finishing his miss. He really works his a55 off out there. It reminds me of Heywoode Workman, though Heywoode was a better passer. Regardless, it was great to see his effort tonight, and I think that sparked our late 1st quarter/2nd quarter play.

dohman
01-19-2007, 03:48 AM
I think we need to trade murphy and baston to miami for Michael Doleac. I have never seen that guy play before but holly hell can he shoot that top of the key shot. Everytime on the pick and roll they would cover the guard option and he would just sink it. That may be a rare game for him I dont really know but I was really impressed with his game tonight.

Did anyone else think walker was gettin to the basket way to easy on jermaine?

Can we still sign jimmy snap hunter and cut tinsely and green? I am sure he would give his all everynight.. The guy has just been dyin to play pro ball.

Did I see harrison play some tonight or was that just my mind playing trick on me. Thinking I seen a monster.



He's been called for the carry twice now, and I'm surprised it isn't called on most every possession. He has looked better with dribbling the past two games.


I really, really think he's earned a spot in the rotation with his play of late. He was a defensive stud tonight. He didn't stay in front of Wade very well, but his impact was obvious once again. He forced several bad passes from the Heat, and he pressured the defense by bringing the ball up court fast. Granger gets props for finishing his miss. He really works his a55 off out there. It reminds me of Heywoode Workman, though Heywoode was a better passer. Regardless, it was great to see his effort tonight, and I think that sparked our late 1st quarter/2nd quarter play.

OakMoses
01-19-2007, 08:46 AM
Thanks to TNT I actually got to watch the game and participate in this thread rather than reading it and trying to figure out what happened. I'll start with what I liked.

- Granger showed that he can be a legit #2 scoring option. This is what he'll need to be for the rest of the season.

- Quis looked great. He was the primary creative force on offense, routinely split double teams, took it to the hole, and either passed or scored most of the time.

- Foster & Quis were the only reasons we made it a game in the 4th quarter.

- Shawne Williams can shoot.

What I didn't like:

- Tinsley. Granger and Quis stepped up their game with the team short handed. Tinsley was completely worthless. We would have done better with Kevin Ollie playing point all night.

- Shawne Williams had a couple of big-time rookie moments. One where he was easily overpowered by Antoine Walker in the post. Another where he was isolated against Doleac at the 3 point line and couldn't manage to take him to the whole.

- This team clearly does not know how to play zone defense.

- I didn't really like anything I saw from the PG position tonight.

Other thoughts:

- JO is obviously not 100% healthy. He didn't play a bad game, but he wasn't nearly as aggressive as he needed to be at either end of the floor.

- I'm wondering if we can use Troy Murphy like they used Doleac. That sure would open things up down low for JO.

- I'm also wondering about Dunleavy and Quis as a guard combo, with Quis being our drive and kick guy and Dunleavy being the up top throw it into JO guy.

- It would be nice if we didn't have to play Marshall and Baston very much for the rest of the season. They're not bad, but they're not real good either.

- I'm glad this game was against the Heat. Dwayne Wade is more fun to watch than anyone in the NBA. You can have Kobe and LeBron, I'll take Wade anyday.

JB's Breakout Year
01-19-2007, 08:48 AM
How do you figure? I wouldn't exactly call jacking up 20 footer after 20 footer giving 100%. I think I saw Quis drive to the basket more times tonight than I've seen from Jackson in the past month.

Entirely different skill sets as players. While Jackson is a more consistent outside shooter, Daniels is so much better going to the basket.

Loved Daniels' game last night. He'd be deadly if he could develop into even just a 35% 3PT shooter.

MagicRat
01-19-2007, 08:59 AM
Jamaal Tinsley tonight...

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all........
http://freepages.school-alumni.rootsweb.com/~mjolson/MillerPix/Cowboy-Bob.jpg

Ragnar
01-19-2007, 09:18 AM
You know UB we usually disagree about a lot of things and every time we do I think where the heck is he coming from. And I will give you that a lot of the game Jamaal looked like someone had just traded away our athletic players for soft white players who fit more into Ricks controlling offense.

When Rick had no choice but to open up the offense at the end of the game Jamaal ran the floor extremely well and thats what led to the comeback. Of course once we got close Rick went back to play calling but hey you cant win them all.

And on the subject of Rick ok you have a guy who scores 9 points in three possessions so you take him out for the last couple of plays. He is the guy the Heat are admitting they could not stop so you put him on the bench??

Phildog
01-19-2007, 09:25 AM
I watch every game, and we all need to hold back a little here. This is Daniels 1st good game of the year. This is Granger's career best night. These might be signs of things to come, but come on, its ONE game. And it was a nationally televised game--something to get jacked for.

In addition, around 6 weeks ago, everyone is hyping Jamaal and saying how great he is playing and may be back. Look, he's played every game this year, he's had his inconsistencies, but he's had good games, he's had games where he's been the reason we win. A good TEAM will mask weaknesses of their players and play as a unit. We will need that to help with Jamaals D. Anyways...just a small rant. The emotional comments made by many on this board crack me up. It's still a long season and I'll be watching along with everyone else. Let's not trade everyone who has a bad game/bad week/bad month.

FlavaDave
01-19-2007, 09:25 AM
The sad truth is that he will more then likely remain a Pacer for a long time because seriously, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS WOULD WANT THIS GUY ON THEIR TEAM?

Nobody, that's who. This team needs a new point guard and quick.


Remember, we said the same thing about SJax.

I predict that, assuming Troy Murphy pans out, we will use Jeff Foster as bait to move Tinsley.

I would personally try to package Tinsley and Harrison for an expiring contract and a second round pick/backup point guard.

stlouis steve
01-19-2007, 09:28 AM
Hey guys, I haven't posted before except in the welcome thread since I rarely get to see non-playoff games of the Pacers. I come here to read and learn from people who DID get to see the games. BUT, since the game was on TNT last night (and I watched about half the game at the local pub), I thought I'd put in my two cents.

My general feeling is that the forum was happy with how our offense performed last night, and I agree so I won't comment further. Our defense was just awful while I was watching, but a lot of that was due to Dwayne Wade being so good, and since I don't watch too many games I'll give them a pass on that for the most part.

But I would like to comment on one interesting sequence I observed, spread over the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

In the 2nd quarter, over the course of about a minute or two, there was a sequence that just about made me vomit: first, someone (J. Williams?) threw Wade an alley-oop with M. Daniels standing there "defending". Obviously, Daniels didn't see the pass go up (this happens, no big deal); instead,he noticed it when it was half way to Wade, and instead of defending did absolutely nothing. Really, nothing--no movement whatsoever. His head might have turned. I thought to myself, there's a play where as a defender, even if you're late seeing it, you should get a body on the dunker, get up in the air, in his face--even if you're late. NOTHING dirty, just say "this is some ground I will NOT yield--I'm playing DEFENSE here, you can NOT just start throwing alley-oops over my head to my man in traffic!" Don't try to foul, but also don't worry about it if you do pick up a foul, because it's just too important, and too basic, that the offense shouldn't be throwing alley-oops over you in traffic. That Daniels didn't respond is either due to lack of effort (I really doubt that), or because he's a nice guy (alley oops are dangerous to the dunker when a defender plays defense and has position as Daniels did), or because he was just resigned to having no option on the play (which I would disagree with--he could have made it a much more difficult play, even if he ended up drawing a foul, instead of quitting on it).

At any rate, the Heat had obviously learned a valuable lesson. Within 60 seconds, someone (I believe Wade) sent an alley-oop pass over Tinsley's head to someone (I don't know who), who just dunked over Tinsley. Like Daniels, Tinsley had NO response.

This is getting long-winded. I like Tinsley, and think that Daniels is adequate at defense, so I don't mean to say these guys are bad basketball players or don't give enough effort. I just hope Carlisle (who immediately called a timeout after the 2nd dunk) alerted them to the fact that it's ok to give up a foul in that situation.

In the 3rd quarter, the Heat went to that well one more time. But this time, they tried it over a defender who won't put up with that crap. Someone sailed a alley-oop pass to Alonzo Mourning, who went up for the dunk. Jermaine O'Neal was defending. He saw the pass on the way, and backed up, as if boxing out. Down went Alonzo, awkwardly, pounding the floor. I thought "Poor Alonzo, I hope he's ok, but THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T THROW ALLEY-OOPS ALL THE TIME IN TRAFFIC!" A foul was called (which I have no problem with, but it actually COULD have been a no-call, since JO was just bodying his man).

Anywho, by this time I was running late to get home, so I watched to the end of the 3rd quarter and left. Not sure if the Heat tried any more of those alley-oops or not. I was just glad I saw one of them defended before I had to go.

I also don't know if this is a common trend for the Pacers--have you guys seen a lot of alley-oops against the team this season? I feel like Miami tries more of them than most teams I've watched. But if you give up an alley-oop, not on a fast break, but while back on defense...I just can't think of anything that could show WORSE defense. I hope they learn from JO on this one, because it's really easy to put a stop to this.

Sorry for the long winded post, that sequence just bothered me, and I had to get it off my chest.

Unclebuck
01-19-2007, 10:05 AM
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all........
http://freepages.school-alumni.rootsweb.com/~mjolson/MillerPix/Cowboy-Bob.jpg



Ok, that is a good phrase - but wouldn't the forum cease to exist if we all took that to heart.

odeez
01-19-2007, 11:27 AM
Yeah let's just move on from the Jackson and Al era. Over and done. I thought Quis played great. He went to the rim alot, more then any Pacer I have seen this year. Granger needs to be aggresive like tonight, he should be the second option or at least get a shot at it.

TINS was really bad at time and good in others. He just needs to pass first and score when he is open in the mid range.

Foster played well, especially at the end. I wish he had brought that earlier. I like the thought of him and Murphy in rotation.

All in all it was a good game. Miami has Wade and he is a great player.

bnd45
01-19-2007, 02:05 PM
I just finished watching the game on tape so now I can post my thoughts:

1) It's difficult to knock a guy who's clearly giving 100%, but Jeff Foster was absolutely horrible for the first 3 quarters. If he doesn't come up with all of those putbacks late in the game no one on this board is defedning him to remain the starting 5. Miami jumped the passing lane every time he went to pass and yet every time he threw it away. White Chocolate must have had 3 clean 1 on 0 breaks due to this. He wasn't the only one being careless with the ball, but his were the most glaring.

2. Now that game is why I was so pumped we got Marquis Daniels. By far our best player last night. He was aggressive and showed off the whole arsenal. Even when he would miss it would create huge lanes for Foster to come in for the putback. 3 Heat defenders would come over to contest every time down the stretch. Those might as well be assists becasue Jeff won't get too many better looks than those. Off the ball MD was real good at roaming the baseline and finding openings to make some excellent passes to our big guys (JO and Foster)

3. I didn't think Tinsley was as horrbile as UB. The one shot that really bothered me was the airballed 3 after he missed one 2 seconds before. Reset the offense and be greatful that JO gave the offense a second chance by pulling down the O-board. He also lost White Chocalate at a pivotal moment late and allowed a wide open jumper in the corner. Sticking with the PG's, I loved Greene's activity. He's everywhere on D. I can live with the fact that he's a trainwreck on offense if he's gonna bring that kind of D for 5 minutes a half.

4. JO's reluctancy to go out and guard Doleac really hurt us. 4 uncontested jumpers come back to haunt you in a 3 pt. loss. JO is so used to having to protect the rim that you could see the hesitation in his steps each time Doleac received the ball. Offensively Haslem really got him out of his game in the 2nd half. JO always ends up wrestling for position with haslem and it is very unprodcutive. Take what the D gives you and attack from there.

5. It was sure nice to have a SF smoothly chip in 28 and not require 30 shots. Granger was dynamite in the 1st half and solid in the 2nd half. He wasn't as consistent as Daniels last night, but he can't do much more to show that he's ready to be JO's sidekick. Him and Daniels should remain the starters with Dunleavy coming off the bench and the three of them rotating accordingly.

6. The D sucked because Miami has one of the top 3 players in the league. No matter how much attention you give to him he's still getting 30 and we let other guys get off as well. Mourning punished us early, Doleac's shootaround extended into the 2nd quarter, White Chocalate was solid, and 'Toine even played well (he went by S. Williams with ease a couple of times). Odds are that Miami will not shoot that well next time against us, and having some veteran depth will help our D.

Season 2 begins Saurday.

CableKC
01-19-2007, 02:15 PM
I finished watching the game on tape at 12am and I wanted to be sure that I get my impressions in before I read most of your thoughts on the game.

Tinsley
On the offensive end....as usual, Tinsley took too many ill-advised shots that are clearly outside of his comfort zone ( basically anywhere near or beyond the 3pt line ). There was a play in the 3rd or 4th QTR...where he took a 3pt shot....the ball clanked...somebody tipped the ball back to him...and he IMMEDIATELY ( without hesistation ) jacked up another 3pt shot that didn't even touch the rim. This doesn't mean that I don't want him to take too many shots cuz there were several shots that he made that were consistently dropping ( all midrange jumpers close to the FT line ). Tinsley can figure out when to take that type of shots that he is clearly capable of making. The problem is that he...more often then not...takes shots that he definitely should not be taking. I don't know if he simply wants to be a 2nd/3rd scoring option PG ( and therefore "acts before he thinks" ) or if Carlisle wants him to be a score-first ( rather then a "score some but mostly pass more" ) PG. On the defensive end....there were several plays where...for some reason or another...he was guarding a significantly bigger player ( not sure who it was )....which subsequently led to a mismatch that led ( of course ) to several easy points. What's worse was that they were able to easily lose Tinsley behind screens. I don't know if Tinsley was supposed to guard him...or if he got lost somewhere and picked up the wrong guy :shrug: . The bottomline is that Tinsley simply played like he usually played when we lose....there were positives and negatives to his game that we simply cannot fix.

Marquis
There were parts of the game where I just thought that his midrange jumper was automatic....whether it was from the FT line...or in a crowd of player. I really have no idea why he didn't get more minutes at either Guard positions before the trade. He may not have as much of an offensive arsenal as SJax...but he was way more consistent with those midrange jumpers. He seemed to get most of those shots up before the defense could properly setup. I don't recall if he and Tinsley were on the floor at the same time towards the end....but there were two plays towards the end of the game...where he SPECIFICALLLY got the ball to Foster underneath the basket. When the game was on the line....I like that he was able to handle the ball and look for the right player to get the ball to..as opposed to simply looking for JONeal and getting it to him. The only part of his game that I do not like ( and one of the reasons why I really do not want to trade DunDun for Maggette ) is that Marquis SHOULD NEVER take a 3pt shot. He simply can't make them.

Granger
There really isn't much to say that probably hasn't been said already...his was Granger's coming out party.....he was clearly capable of carrying the offensive load. I wasn't able to keep track of whether he was playing the "SG or SF" role on the offensive or defensive end...but for him...I don't think it matters as much when it comes to him. The only concern that I have is when teams start double-teaming him when they realize ( like we do ) that he is now the 2nd scoring option on the team ( which will command more defensive pressure then he is used to ). I just hope that he is able to figure out how to pass the ball out when they collapse on him.

Foster
He rebounded...made some stupid offensive plays now and then....but was amazingly clutch towards the end of the game with his standard "garbageman" style of play. There really isn't much else to say. Foster was...as always...Foster.

JONeal
Same as Foster....JONeal played like he usually played....outstanding. Maybe it was me...but we didn't seem to continually resort to "get the ball to JONeal" ball...especially when we were getting close in the game. I was surprised that he didn't play as much of an offensive role towards the end of the game...but I think this was mostly due to some BS foul that were called by Refs that got him into foul trouble towards the end.

Turnovers
Like usual....turnovers killed us...we just seemed to be careless...I don't know how many times JWill picked the ball from the perimeter and went in for an easy layup.

3pt Shooting
We NEED ANOTHER decent 3pt option on the floor other then Granger that can consistently hit the shot. I liked that Shawne took and made that 3pt shot towards the end....but he ( and I think Rawle ) took several 3pt shots that simply clanked. I would much rather live with a Granger/DunDun/Marquis SG/SF rotation just so that we can have better 3pt scoring option with DunDun then trade him to the Clippers for Maggette ( whose 3pt shot is as bad as Marquis ).

Intangibles
This was the single most important thing that I felt was important. I don't know how to put it...but when watching the game...from the beginning to the end...I didn't have the same dreaded feeling that I usually have. I only screamed at the TV when Tinsley did something stupid ( like jack up yet another 3pt shot ), when there was a turnover and when Marquis took a 3pt shot...but these were all issues that I had before the trade was made. I didn't have to worry about SJax pounding the ball....telegraphing that he will be shooting the ball after 10 seconds...there seemed to be more movement among players and overall effort. Everything else about the game.....watching Marquis man the Point or the SG position and ( just like Granger ) take a greater role on the offensive end...JONeal properly deferring when he had to and taking over when he needed to....seemed different to me....in a positive way. I think that is what this trade did for me...it took away that level of uncertainty and negativity that I felt with the team. Although we lost....it didn't feel like a "bad loss"...it seemed like a "good loss" cuz we were able to make several solid runs against them and was able to stay in the game all the way to the end.

Since86
01-19-2007, 02:21 PM
Rick Carlisle is again the root problems of Jamaal Tinsley. :laugh:

Somewhere in the NBA, the term "professional" has to be identified and players have to be responsible for actually working for their paycheck.

It's Rick's fault Tins shoots too much, and it's Rick's fault the trade went down and sent all the athletic players he depends on to GS. It's Rick's fault that Jamaal can't stay healthy and has to fake "sinus infections." When in the ****ing world is Jamaal Tinsley going to be responsible for his own actions?

AesopRockOn
01-19-2007, 02:58 PM
I thought Jermaine looked a little slow out there, especially trying to block some of the quicker players aka Wade.

And the call should have been reversed, NFD.

PacerMan
01-19-2007, 04:25 PM
He's been called for the carry twice now, and I'm surprised it isn't called on most every possession. He has looked better with dribbling the past two games.


I really, really think he's earned a spot in the rotation with his play of late. He was a defensive stud tonight. He didn't stay in front of Wade very well, but his impact was obvious once again. He forced several bad passes from the Heat, and he pressured the defense by bringing the ball up court fast. Granger gets props for finishing his miss. He really works his a55 off out there. It reminds me of Heywoode Workman, though Heywoode was a better passer. Regardless, it was great to see his effort tonight, and I think that sparked our late 1st quarter/2nd quarter play.

Had a great block on a fast break (Wade?) and then next trip down threw an awesome olly oop for a monster dunk. I like him.

vapacersfan
01-19-2007, 05:11 PM
Rick Carlisle is again the root problems of Jamaal Tinsley. :laugh:

Somewhere in the NBA, the term "professional" has to be identified and players have to be responsible for actually working for their paycheck.

It's Rick's fault Tins shoots too much, and it's Rick's fault the trade went down and sent all the athletic players he depends on to GS. It's Rick's fault that Jamaal can't stay healthy and has to fake "sinus infections." When in the ****ing world is Jamaal Tinsley going to be responsible for his own actions?

I was going to post "QFMFT" but that is frowned upon so I will reply with a very strong "AMEN"!

Hicks
01-19-2007, 05:16 PM
I was going to post "QFMFT" but that is frowned upon so I will reply with a very strong "AMEN"!

It's fine in moderation.

Roferr
01-19-2007, 05:55 PM
We already saw this with MD playing some PG a few games ago (with no other PG on the court). Quis is great with the ball and driving.

He's a "scatback", a Barry Sanders driver rather than a head of steam slasher, but it's very effective. I didn't really understand why he hit the doghouse and have been pleased with his game all year. People talk about his ups and downs, but to me its mostly been based on his PT only.

He's not an ace starter IMO, but he's a nice, solid 6th man type that can work the 1-3...you know, pretty much what we thought last summer.


I didn't get to see some of the early 1st and 3rd yet, so no comment on Tins. But I can imagine. I just don't get his game this year. Very odd. Doesn't look like the same guy we saw 2-3 years ago.


Williams is a great draft pick. That shot is feathery soft, pure as new snow. Great touch. And on top of that he plays a pretty smart game. Again, I said this after the Chicago game, and he still looks identical to that. He should play more.


Greene CARRIES ALL THE TIME. He can't handle the ball without carrying. Several of us have complained about it earlier this year and here it was yet again. Ugh. Like the defense, but he needs someone else to bring it up.


Granger. Great offense which I've been saying, still off and on when it comes to the team strategy. Doesn't seem to read the floor as well as Williams, same thing I also thought back around that CHI game. Still surprises me.

But the kid has the ability and I think most of the confidence. He's a guy that by year 4 is going to be near AS level I think.


FOSTER - this was why we complained about those putback misses. Look at the impact they have when he makes them! He even drew fouls with it. Love his energy, especially when he turns it into points like that.


I still thought they could have at least used Jackson out there to boost the defense. It really showed that he was missing, but at least there is some young talent to work with.

I'm just afraid that this team is really heading out of the playoffs but not high enough to get a true superstar impact player (unless by pure luck or draft savvy).

I really do wish another trade was in the works to sort out the balance of the team. Doesn't look like it will happen now unless it doesn't involve the people just brought in (other than 1 for 1 deals).

I don't believe for a minute that this team is out of the playoffs. Jax is gone and the quicker you get use to the idea and get behind the Pacers and get off the negativity, the better off you'll be.

FlavaDave
01-19-2007, 06:30 PM
I don't believe for a minute that this team is out of the playoffs. Jax is gone and the quicker you get use to the idea and get behind the Pacers and get off the negativity, the better off you'll be.



When did he say he wasn't behind the team?

"I'm just afraid that this team is really heading out of the playoffs......."

That is worlds apart from saying "This team will never make the playoffs! Donnie Bird was a moron for drafting Harrison! Blow the team up! FIRE CARLISLE!!!!"

This is the same issue as the Jeff Foster thread. Just because you point out problems with the team doesn't make you negative. In fact, I believe the honest discussion of flaws (in this case, the lost defense of Jackson, the carries of Greene, and the possibility that this team might not have enough talent to make the playoffs) is a prerequiste to a good discussion.

I think blatant negativity and derogatory hyperbole are big problems on this board. But Seth's post clearly does not fit that description.

(And Seth, I know you can speak for yourself, but I thought a third party perspective might help).

Roferr
01-19-2007, 06:57 PM
When did he say he wasn't behind the team?

"I'm just afraid that this team is really heading out of the playoffs......."

That is worlds apart from saying "This team will never make the playoffs! Donnie Bird was a moron for drafting Harrison! Blow the team up! FIRE CARLISLE!!!!"

This is the same issue as the Jeff Foster thread. Just because you point out problems with the team doesn't make you negative. In fact, I believe the honest discussion of flaws (in this case, the lost defense of Jackson, the carries of Greene, and the possibility that this team might not have enough talent to make the playoffs) is a prerequiste to a good discussion.

I think blatant negativity and derogatory hyperbole are big problems on this board. But Seth's post clearly does not fit that description.

(And Seth, I know you can speak for yourself, but I thought a third party perspective might help).

This isn't the only post that he's put up. He can't stand the fact that Jax is gone. He's not even willing to let the team play with it's new members before saying that it's heading south.

You don't know him from the Star forum. Frankly, I'm surprised that he's still posting here because Jax is gone. I looked for him to go to a Warriors message board.

FlavaDave
01-19-2007, 06:59 PM
This isn't the only post that he's put up. He can't stand the fact that Jax is gone. He's not even willing to let the team play with it's new members before saying that it's heading south.

You don't know him from the Star forum. Frankly, I'm surprised that he's still posting here because Jax is gone. I looked for him to go to a Warriors message board.


Your entitled to your opinion. I'm only replying to say that I do indeed know him from the Star boards if that makes a difference.

Roferr
01-19-2007, 08:09 PM
Your entitled to your opinion. I'm only replying to say that I do indeed know him from the Star boards if that makes a difference.

Then you should know that Jax can do no wrong.

Actually, I picked a poor post to criticize him. I guess it was an accumulative effect. There's been a lot of negativity concerning Murphy and Dunleavey, when they haven't even had a chance to play yet. At least let them show what they can or can't do before blasting the trade and them.