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View Full Version : Huge trade! Murphy/Dunleavy/Diogu/McLeod for Harrington/Jackson/Sarunas/Powell



Grant
01-17-2007, 02:35 PM
The Golden State Warriors have agreed to trade Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod to the Indiana Pacers for Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Josh Powell, NBA front-office sources tell ESPN.com's Marc Stein.The trade is scheduled to be announced later Wednesday.


Al Harrington
15.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.4 apg in 33.6 minutes

Stephen Jackson
14.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.1 apg in 32.0 minutes

Sarunas Jasikevicius
7.4 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 3.0 apg in 17.9 minutes

Josh Powell
1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg in 9.1 minutes


Troy Murphy
8.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.3 apg in 25.6 minutes

Mike Dunleavy
11.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 27.0 minutes

Ike Diogu
7.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.1 minutes

Keith McLeod
5.3 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.7 apg in 14.6 minutes

Fool
01-17-2007, 02:37 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2733891

Good morning, you have a new team.

(And about 4 new threads on the same topic.)

Seed
01-17-2007, 02:39 PM
Holy cow.

Grant
01-17-2007, 02:39 PM
Wow that just kinda came out of nowhere.....need to digest this. Weird that they would go after Harrington and then trade him so quickly.

pwee31
01-17-2007, 02:40 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2733891

Good morning, you have a new team.

(And about 4 new threads on the same topic.)


haha no kidding, I just saw that link, I've been on ESPNews and saw the breaking news, but didn't know the players.

sweabs
01-17-2007, 02:43 PM
I love Ike Diogu.

DG4mvp
01-17-2007, 02:45 PM
Hummm, at first it looks like a pretty even trade and it makes sense for both teams. It all hangs on whether Diogu can fulfill his potential. Does anyone know how many years are left on Murphy and Dunleavy's contracts ?

Diamond Dave
01-17-2007, 02:46 PM
Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since86
01-17-2007, 02:48 PM
First response?

OH MY!!!

Second response after reading who?

STEPHEN JACKSON IS GONE!!!

Dr. Goldfoot
01-17-2007, 02:51 PM
There's the bench players I've been saying we needed all year. I just can't believe we traded two starters to solidify our bench. I know some of you guys are in love w/ Murphy and Dunleavy but they are bench players for the sub .500 Warriors. Murphy's contract is ludicris. 12 million in 2011? Dunleavy gets 11 million in 2011.


BOO!


<---not a Jack fan or a Runi fan or really a Harrington/Powell fan just a sucky trade.

Doug
01-17-2007, 02:51 PM
Does anyone know how many years are left on Murphy and Dunleavy's contracts ?

WAY too many for WAY too much money. I hate that part of this trade. I like Ike.

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 02:52 PM
Does anyone know how many years are left on Murphy and Dunleavy's contracts ?

A LOT

Troy's and Dunleavy are both signed through 2011

Murphy

06/07
<table border="0" bordercolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$8,285,714
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$9,206,349
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$10,126,984
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$11,047,619
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$11,968,253
</td></tr></tbody></table>
Dunleavy -
<table border="0" bordercolor="#ffffff" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#ffffff"><td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$7,438,016
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$8,219,008
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$9,000,000
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$9,780,992
</td> <td nowrap="nowrap" valign="top">
$10,561,984
</td></tr></tbody></table>

JB's Breakout Year
01-17-2007, 02:52 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Hallelujah!!!!!!

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 02:52 PM
I heard this a few minutes ago on ESPN radio - I was driving on 465 south bound towards 56th street on the east side. The reason why I'm telling you this is because if anyone saw me they would have thought I was having some medical problems. I was in shock.

First the guy said G.State traded so and so and the first thing I thought wow I wonder if the Pacers are involved and - I could hardly drive I was in shock, I kept yelling - "oh my goodness".

Some of you will be upset about the Pacers trading Powell - I'm not he's a dime a dozen. Some will be upset about trading Saras - I'm not I just don't think he's that good. Some will be upset about us trading Al - I'm not he's wasn't fitting in. No one will be upset about us trading Jax

In essense this trade was Al for Ike. That is how I'm sure it started - all the other players were throw ins. We'll take Dun and Murphy but you have to take Jax. That type of thing.

Ike is the key.

I like Dunleavy more than most people do, he's not a defender so I might learn to hate him, and he's not a great shooter - but he's extremely smart and a great passer.

Murph is a good shooter and an excellent rebounder.

Ike is the key.

I don't know Mcloud - I assume he's a backup point guard. Pacers also want to get Granger more minutes and maybe Daniel????

I think the Pacers are in effect doubling down on JO

Natston
01-17-2007, 02:53 PM
First response?

OH MY!!!

Second response after reading who?

STEPHEN JACKSON IS GONE!!!

But we now have Murphy and Dunleavy... :puke:

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 02:53 PM
At least they waited until after Monday.

Anthem
01-17-2007, 02:54 PM
Holy cow. This is bizarre.

I don't understand it at all. I'm not upset about it yet, I just don't get it.

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 02:56 PM
Wow, this trade sucks, looks like its up to the Colts to have success for both Indy teams.

This is a prime example of a Trade for the sake of trading. The causal fan will come back for a few months but then leave again because we will still not be any good.

ajbry
01-17-2007, 02:58 PM
:laugh:

We bring in Al a few months ago for big money to put us over the edge. We bring in Jack to be our shooting guard for many years. We bring in Sarunas to solidify our outside shooting and leadership.

Basically, that is our 3 biggest offseason moves in each particular offseason, and we manage to GIVE THEM AWAY for Troy Murphy, Ike Diogu, and Mike Dunleavy?

This is hilarious. I can't believe it. I used to have faith in Larry and Donnie, but this is insane.

Murphy and Dunleavy are flat-out mediocre, bench-quality NBA players that have Croshere-esque contracts. WOW.

IndyFan032589
01-17-2007, 02:58 PM
This is THE STUPIDEST TRADE EVER MADE BY THE PACERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I give them exactly 1 month to improve, I will be going to the game against the Heat next week and I will be able to see in person if I like the new team, if they do not improve I am becoming a Heat fan on February 17th, ridicule me if you like but this is the most heinous thing I have ever seen.

Anthem
01-17-2007, 02:59 PM
So what's our roster now?

JO - Murphey - Dunleavy - Daniels - Tinsley
Foster - Diogu - Granger - Rawle - Armstrong
Harrison - Baston - Williams - Greene - McLeod

Is that how it's going to go?

ABADays
01-17-2007, 03:00 PM
Interestingly I learned about it while listening to WEEI in Boston. Must have been a really boring day in the Pacer FO. Seems like a trade just for the sake of making a trade.

Natston
01-17-2007, 03:00 PM
Is JO the center again with the addition of two power forwards?

hoopsforlife
01-17-2007, 03:01 PM
I liked Sarunas but if it means we got rid of Jackson and AL its OK. I liked Al as a person but he wan't working out here.

Sarunas will now get a real opportunity to show what he can do. I'm good with that too.

I really like this trade and I don't even know who these GS guys are.

I don't even care if they can play or not.

Whooo Hoooooo!!!!

Frank Slade
01-17-2007, 03:02 PM
Wow !!! I was waiting for the punchline on this one. I saw the title and said yeah right. Getting Diogu is great. The large salaries not so much. But some
baggage has been lifted, that is for sure.

Since86
01-17-2007, 03:02 PM
Would TPTB look at this is getting another Brad Miller to let JO play the 4?

EDIT:
This is THE STUPIDEST TRADE EVER MADE BY THE PACERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I give them exactly 1 month to improve, I will be going to the game against the Heat next week and I will be able to see in person if I like the new team, if they do not improve I am becoming a Heat fan on February 17th, ridicule me if you like but this is the most heinous thing I have ever seen.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. :wave:

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 03:03 PM
I liked Sarunas but if it means we got rid of Jackson and AL its OK. I liked Al as a person but he wan't working out here.

Sarunas will now get a real opportunity to show what he can do. I'm good with that too.

<B>I really like this trade and I don't even know who these GS guys are. </B>

I don't even care if they can play or not.

Whooo Hoooooo!!!!

WOW! If you knew who these guys were, you wouldn't

Israfan
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
SAD

nbrans
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
Wow, I'm a Kings fan who likes the Pacers a lot more than the Warriors, and I really hate this trade for you guys. It would be one thing to take on Dunleavy or Murphy to get Diogu, but to take on both??? Your cap is screwed indefinitely. Sorry guys. Mullin took Bird to the cleaners.

Seed
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
I like Dunleavy more than most people do, he's not a defender so I might learn to hate him, and he's not a great shooter - but he's extremely smart and a great passer.
Not that it matters now, but Saras has the same nunmber of assists with 9 mpg less. He also gets paid less and has a shorter contract.



Ike is the key.

Yup.

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
I'm sure G. State wanted Jeff - but we held firm.

Although Jeff really isn't a Don Nelson type player.

I'm happy about this trade, but I need to learn more about McLoud

duke dynamite
01-17-2007, 03:04 PM
You've got to be kidding me!!!

Ugh....





The Golden State Warriors have agreed to trade Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod to the Indiana Pacers for Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, Sarunas Jasikevicius and Josh Powell, NBA front-office sources tell ESPN.com's Marc Stein.The trade is scheduled to be announced later Wednesday.


Al Harrington
15.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.4 apg in 33.6 minutes

Stephen Jackson
14.1 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.1 apg in 32.0 minutes

Sarunas Jasikevicius
7.4 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 3.0 apg in 17.9 minutes

Josh Powell
1.7 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.4 apg in 9.1 minutes


Troy Murphy
8.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.3 apg in 25.6 minutes

Mike Dunleavy
11.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 3.0 apg in 27.0 minutes

Ike Diogu
7.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.1 minutes

Keith McLeod
5.3 ppg, 0.8 rpg, 1.7 apg in 14.6 minutes

Black Sox
01-17-2007, 03:05 PM
I love this trade. Finally we get players who understand the game of basketball. Dunleavy and Murphy have high basketball IQ.

I hope we get back to the way it was in 97 through 99 where the team didn't have the best players or the best team in the league but they had by far had the best basketball players as far as Basketball IQ and fed off each other.

Hicks
01-17-2007, 03:05 PM
Holy Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed! :-o My goodness. I did not see this coming at all it goes without saying (and yet I just did). Wow. I need to think about this one for a while. At first glance, the positives I see are:

We just added two quality big men. We just got rid of Stephen Jackson.

ajbry
01-17-2007, 03:07 PM
I cannot fathom how we managed to downgrade our talent and kill our salary cap in the same trade. This is quite the accomplishment.

bulldog
01-17-2007, 03:08 PM
Quick thoughts:
1) Can Ike and JO play together? Key to this trade for me.
2) Murphy and Dunleavy are Pacers until 2011. No way we move those contracts again. Get used to them.
3) Who's our back-up point when DA wears out? Can Orien step up.
4) We'll have better ball movement and passing with Jax gone and Dunleavy in.
5) Murphy's a good rebounder and can space the floor a bit with his shooting, can he play with JO?

hoopsforlife
01-17-2007, 03:08 PM
WOW! If you knew who these guys were, you wouldn't

Your probably right but I'm just happy to be rid of Jackson.

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 03:08 PM
I love this trade. Finally we get players who understand the game of basketball. Dunleavy and Murphy have high basketball IQ.

I hope we get back to the way it was in 97 through 99 where the team didn't have the best players or the best team in the league but they had by far had the best basketball players as far as Basketball IQ and fed off each other.


There is a very good reason these guys are on the bench and its not because they are to spectacular to see without giving the fans a warmup.

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 03:12 PM
This entire trade comes down to one thing: How good will Ike Diogu be in a few seasons. Is he an allstar player - can he and JO play together - IMO nothing else in this trade really matters. We know Dun and Murph - we know they are paid way too much for too many years - we had to take them to get rid of Jackson.

The outcome of the trade is really simple and it all depends on Ike. The players we gave up - it doesn't bother me at all. We kept the 3 players I want to keep, DG, Jeff and JO.

Yes I'm sure we tried to get Petrus - I'm sure we tried to get their young point guard (I'm trying a blank on his name) I'm sure we tried to get other players we wanted.


I just got an e-mail from the Pacers confirming the trade

CompACE
01-17-2007, 03:12 PM
mike dunleavy :(
troy murphy :(
keith mcleod :(
ike diogu :)

check this out - http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2750~1708~2522~1013~308~378~28 13~2197&teams=11~11~11~11~9~9~9~9 - our cap room (assuming we had any) just went down the drain with this trade

Fireball Kid
01-17-2007, 03:13 PM
Holy cow. This is bizarre.

I don't understand it at all. I'm not upset about it yet, I just don't get it.

I'm in that same boat as well. I like Diogu, but Murphy and Dunleavy?

I kinda figured that they were going to sign Harrington only to trade him for something better better during the season. But damn, they could of done a whole lot better than this.

And what is the lineup going to be now? They better not start Dunleavy over Granger. Don't Murphy and Diogu play the same position? So many questions need to be answered.

sweabs
01-17-2007, 03:13 PM
One team looks better; the other one feels better.

CableKC
01-17-2007, 03:14 PM
Geez louise....I leave my desk for 45 minutes...and this happens.....WTF happened here?

Dunleavy...I think is a decent 6th man coming off the bench......the problem is that we are now stacked at the SF / PF spots.

Murphy....solid PF option...but he is another PF that plays further away from the paint...something that we don't need.

Ike...I like...as a potential PF to develop...but he won't develop or get minutes behind JONeal and Murphy.

I'm not sold on this.....I don't mind the players....I just don't think that they fit on this team.

indyman37
01-17-2007, 03:16 PM
I'm sure we tried to get their young point guard (I'm trying a blank on his name)
Are you thinking of Monta Ellis?

Diamond Dave
01-17-2007, 03:16 PM
Who cares about cap space? I'd rather be 3 trillion dollars over the cap then watch another second of what was this season's team.

Its not about money, its about the fact that this team was on a treadmill to nowhere, and either Donna or Larry had the pair to do something about it.

pig norton
01-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Mother ******!!!!! Ahhh ****!!! **** **** **** ****!!!!!! of all the **** to happen to the pacers!!!!

(deep breath)

Mother ******!!!

Shade
01-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Wow, the Black Hole Duo just became the Black Hole Trio in GS (with Baron). :laugh:

The only player I'm shocked we're sending out is Al. He was a favorite of casual fans. I'm sure he's got to be shocked about this as well.

I HATE Murphy's and Dunleavy's contracts. HORRIBLE.

And I'm surprised we got Diogu without sending Harrison out in the deal.

I'll have to think about this a bit. At first glacnce, I don't really like, though I'm ECSTATIC that Jack is gone! I'm just really concerned about those massive contracts.

Young
01-17-2007, 03:17 PM
A lot of good and bad things with this trade.

The Good:
+ Getting some skilled players. Troy Murphy can shoot, and Dunleavy has a range of offenseive skills.
+ Getting rid of Jackson.
+ Getting Ike Digou. A good talent.
The bad:
- The salaries. Sarunas and Al have good contracts, atleast they are short. Dunleavy and Troy make huge money.
- This is such a major trade to make during mid-season. I like that we made a major roster shakeup. Although I do sort of wonder what Larry is thinking sometimes. Trading up for James White, speaking so highly of him, then cutting him. Signing Al, then trading him at mid-season. Heck even talking of becoming more athletic. I think that we got more versatile for sure. IDK I just sort of wonder if Larry knows what he is doing sometimes.

I like Troy more for this team than Al. Troy can Al can both score but Troy is a better rebounder. I also think that Troy and Al are about the same defenseively even though Al is a good athlete, I don't think he has played that well defenseively this year.

People are going to say that Dunleavy sucks and he isn't worth his money. Truth is, he doesn't suck and he isn't worth his money. He is overpaid. With that said, He is still just entering his prime and he has a great range of skills and he isn't a known locker room problem. You might say that he can't guard anyone but he brings so much offenseively. We have others who can defend. Just remember that when we went to the Finals we didn't have a lot of guys known as defenders atleast that I can remember. (Jackson, Best, Rose, Miller, Mullin)

I'm a Troy Murphy guy. I think that he can return to his old form pre-Nellie era in Golden State. Troy had back to back seasons of 15-10. I think that he can return to those numbers alongside Jermaine here in Indiana.

I like Ike. I don't know how good he will get. He is a nice young talent though.

McLeod really isn't all that great. He is a backup point guard. I think he has some good quickness and hopefully he can do well for us.

Anthem
01-17-2007, 03:18 PM
When we played GS, they put Dunleavy at the 2 a lot. Think we'll do that?

Natston
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
“We feel we made a pretty significant trade for the franchise that will be good for both teams,”

“Trades are always painful because you give up players you like, but in this case, we think it’s a good trade that works for both teams. We feel the players we got will make a significant difference in the franchise.”

Straight forward and cliched, but the bigger question is, was this Larry's or Donnie's trade?

MagicRat
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
My first thought is that Donnie and Larry need to keep Santa in the loop on these things since he just brought an Al Harrington jersey for my 2 year old............

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 03:19 PM
1) Can Ike and JO play together? Key to this trade for me.



This is definitely the key for me...Ike is pretty post reliant though from what I've seen. His back to the basket game is tremendous---great foot work, uses both hands, drop steps, fadeaways, jump hooks...he really does have the whole arsenal. But isn't that what JO is for?

Meanwhile...even if they do work well together, we've got $53.5 million tied up in JO/Murphy/Dunleavy/Jamaal/Shawne for the year that we'll have to re-sign both Danny and Ike.

Our financial flexibility just went from bad to unmovable object.

hoopsforlife
01-17-2007, 03:22 PM
I don't think they are done trading yet. Is Jo packing?

pwee31
01-17-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm not going to jump to conclusions quite yet! Murphy when healthy can be a solid double double guy. He can rebound and shoot!

Dunleavy is still young, and has shown signs of being a good player. I think he can excel in the right system.

Diogu has a huge upside and should be nice to have.

Mcleod seems like a throw, just like Powell.

I expect to see a starting lineup of:
PG: Tinsley
SG: Dunleavy
SF: Granger
PF: JO
C: Foster

Murphy, and Ike will come off the bench. I'm guessing Orien and DA will split time at PG.

I also wouldn't rule out another trade in the future. Though Murphy and Dunleavy have sizable contracts, they're still more valuable to Jack/AL IMO!

We'll see what happens! I'm interested to see if they'll be dressed for tomorrow's NATIONALLY TELEVISED game!

FrenchConnection
01-17-2007, 03:23 PM
I have a feeling that this is not the end of it. We traded two back court players and added more frontcourt players. But if it is, I think that there could be some good to come of this.

1) The cloud that has hung over this team is now gone.

2) I like Troy Murphy. I think that he can do the things that we wanted Al to do to help JO.

3) Ike is another good player for the future.

4) We may be able to move Dun-Dun to the Clips in the offseason if Dunlevey Sr. still coaches there. Or, he may improve as a player by working with Bird. Peja sure seemed to.

pig norton
01-17-2007, 03:25 PM
Sarunas will be forever missed.


The warriors win a title this year and you can all remember I called it.

indyman37
01-17-2007, 03:26 PM
Now excuse me if this is a totally off the wall quesiton because I have never watched GS play, but is this just further diminishing any plans we had of trying to have a more uptempo offense (even though it was working at all)? Or are we back to the halfcourt grind?

CableKC
01-17-2007, 03:26 PM
This entire trade comes down to one thing: How good will Ike Diogu be in a few seasons. Is he an allstar player - can he and JO play together - IMO nothing else in this trade really matters. We know Dun and Murph - we know they are paid way too much for too many years - we had to take them to get rid of Jackson.

The outcome of the trade is really simple and it all depends on Ike. The players we gave up - it doesn't bother me at all. We kept the 3 players I want to keep, DG, Jeff and JO.

Yes I'm sure we tried to get Petrus - I'm sure we tried to get their young point guard (I'm trying a blank on his name) I'm sure we tried to get other players we wanted.

I just got an e-mail from the Pacers confirming the trade
I don't think that its hard to pry Diogu off of Mullin's hands...he just doesn't fit into Nellie's offense as his primary skills are his low-post scoring. Unless this is a move to shore up the frontline in favor of moving JONeal in the near future....the only MAJOR reservations cuz I think that Ike will get miniimal minutes at the PF or Center spot stuck behind 2 huge contract Big Men that can't be moved.

Am I the only one that is concerned when we take on 2 PFs that can't find significant minutes in an high-octane offense run by Nellie?

How on earth is Murphy gonna fit in here?

Also....how on Earth did DW and Bird not get a single 2007 draft pick out of this while taking on two 4+ year long term contracts that stretch until 2010/2011 season?

Ragnar
01-17-2007, 03:26 PM
Why the heck did we go out and get Al back just to move him?

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 03:27 PM
I don't think they are done trading yet. Is Jo packing?


I think you're definitely right on the first point. Probably on the second one too.

Kinda weird to trade for two PFs when your franchise guy is a PF.

Dukins
01-17-2007, 03:27 PM
I guess after seeing Kevin Durant play last night the pacers decided to tank the season.


WE WANT DURANT WE WANT DURANT !!!!!!!!!!!

storm1015
01-17-2007, 03:27 PM
This trade also sets the Pacers up for the next move. This move might not be this year but now we have some pieces to build around. We have a surplus of bigs that will be valuable. We still need that one perimeter guy that can really take over off the dribble and finish. This could come in the future but probably not this year. It seems like we are building infrastucture and assembling pieces.

We were becoming the same old plowing team with this group. Al proved he can't coexist with JO. Saras needed a new start. Jax needed to go. If two of of the group of Murphy/Ike/Dunleavy work out it will really help our team.

Two other thoughts:
1) How will JO take this?
2) How many possesions will GS need to keep these guys happy? A team full of black holes. At least Dunleavy was unselfish. Good luck with Al and Jax.

Team Indy
01-17-2007, 03:29 PM
Besides the promise of Diogu, this trade is about JO. Surrounding him with better shooters. Murphy can help spread the floor for JO, while Dunleavy is a decent ballhandler and shooter as well. I just wish the shooting came in the form of backcourt players. I was just reading an article the other day about how Dunleavy and Murphy were virtually untradable because of their contracts and the fact that they are Nellie type players who haven't quite thrived in the new Nellie system. I hope they can be revitalised.

Looks like Kidd is not coming then, unless the Simons decide they have too much money. I hope Dunleavy can help this team, take some responsibilty off Tinsley and I guess also allow Greene to play. Who starts at the 2 and 3 will also be interesting.

Anthem
01-17-2007, 03:32 PM
Why the heck did we go out and get Al back just to move him?
I always assumed we got Al to move him. He wasn't a good fit, but the trade exception couldn't be used in this kind of a situation.

pig norton
01-17-2007, 03:32 PM
If JO goes, and we don't get a lot back, We're done for.

Anthem
01-17-2007, 03:34 PM
I tell you what. I don't know if this is a good trade for the team, but it's definitely a good trade for the forum.

TheDon
01-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Wow this one came way way way deep from left field...kind of WTF over the whole salary situation we are into right now. Maybe more trades are coming perhaps so we can get rid of either one of those huge contracts like Murphy or Dunleavy has.

I think Murphy could play pretty well with JO just because Murphy reminds me a lot of Brad Miller. He can go out and hit the three and pick up some crazy amounts of rebounds, which would help space the floor greatly for JO. Not only that but now the paint won't have to look like a giant train-wreck with people like Danny/Al/Jo/Foster all clogging up the middle. I agree with what one poster said here earlier I think Murphy can easily be a 15/10 guy on this team as he had two seasons back to back with those numbers pre nellie. Troy just isn't a fast-paced run up and down the floor offense type of guy I think he'll thrive in Rick's schemes.

Dunleavey I don't really know much about, although I've heard Golden State fans complain for years about him being worth the money and years he's signed for so i'll hold my opinion of him until further notice.

Always heard talks of what could be about Ike but even if he has a teensy amount of talent he's already leaps and bounds above harrison which I think means TPTB are thinking of him as more and more of a bust. I'm glad we cleared up that log jam at PG I hope Orien gets some solid minutes now and hopefully Shawne gets some minutes too so that he may continue to develop.

and who the heck is mcleoud? did we just trade for highlander?

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 03:34 PM
Why the heck did we go out and get Al back just to move him?

That's why I figured you couldn't argue with the Al move regardless of whether or not he fit in. We got him for a "hometown", under-market value, so he was at least an asset for us to trade later.

dohman
01-17-2007, 03:38 PM
I sit here and listen to everyone on this forum complain about runi all last year.. stepehen jackson the last 2 years and al harrington all this year. We manage to move all three in a trade where we actually get equal return in players that are not nut cases. have high basketbal iq. and can rebound.

I swear it doesnt matter who is on the pacers team. you will find a way to complain. TPTB just made a statement and are looking out for the fans who have been requesting trades for these players.

I like the trade:D

Naptown_Seth
01-17-2007, 03:39 PM
I cannot fathom how we managed to downgrade our talent and kill our salary cap in the same trade. This is quite the accomplishment.
No kidding.

I saw the Pacers listed and that Saras and Powell were thrown in too and I thought "boy, we must have pulled in some serious talent to give up that much".

Nope. Team is slower and in a worse contract situation. I agree that Al had been problematic with his recent play, but Jack seemed to be doing well enough.


And don't give me that "high IQ players" crap. You've got a high IQ for the game, maybe try using it to put up BETTER RESULTS. WTF good is talent, IQ or anything if it doesn't produce something.


There are a lot of versions of this I could have liked, I'm not such a Jackson fan that I don't appreciate the reasons to move him, but GD at least get something in return besides a couple of slow, spot up shooting types with perhaps "limited" defensive ability.



One thing though, doesn't this show us that I was right about the Daniels and Greene PT? RC obviously was taking a look at the possible options just in case. My guess is that they felt good enough with Quis to move Saras and Jack. Probably puts Greene into regular minutes as well.


I probably hate giving up Powell over Rawle most of all, but I guess Diogu is meant to take care of that. We'll see. A year ago he was nothing but big promise. Has anything come from that?


I have a feeling that this is not the end of it. We traded two back court players and added more frontcourt players. But if it is, I think that there could be some good to come of this.

1) The cloud that has hung over this team is now gone.
I agree that more trading makes more sense than this being it, but I guess we will see about that.

However, how is the cloud gone? Jack was alone at Rio? Tins hasn't been a big issue still?

And Al and Saras were supposed to be 2 of the "good guys". Maybe they didn't play defense, but they seemed to have positive attitudes.

One thing with them though, I can see how neither was living up to what RC wanted out of them. Moving them makes some sense, though it's a quick trigger on Al. But the trade overall doesn't make the bad vibes around the team go away.


BTW, I recall someone around here making HUGE promises regarding improved attendence if only the Pacers traded Jackson and Tinsley, this in contrast to me saying that wins were the only cure, Jack or otherwise.

DisplacedKnick
01-17-2007, 03:39 PM
Here I spend the first half of the season saying it's time for Donnie and Bird to go and then they go and redeem my faith in them.

First the obvious - Jackson had to go. Getting a stale dog biscuit for him would have been fine.

Second, the more obvious - Harrington should never have come - now he isn't.

Saras - bye. Powell - meh.

Murphy and Dunleavy are both very skilled, soft players. I'd call Murphy somewhat soft, Dunleavy very soft. At the same time, both can handle the ball, shoot and get up and down the court. These are the anti-Carlisle players but they're also great players to have if you really want an open court running type team.

Diogu may start right away - I don't see him much, just hear about him. But he'll instantly become your most physical defender.

You have cap issues but not that much worse - Harrington was a cap killer too.

The other thing with Murphy is on offense he'll complement JO very well by being able to step out to 15-18 feet.

Totally changes the complexion of the team but you get rid of a cancer who the fans hate, a player who absolutely doesn't fit and a mediocre backup PG for 2 skill players and one guy who might really turn into something.

And best of all, Danny Granger now starts.

Really good trade by DW & LB IMO.

pwee31
01-17-2007, 03:40 PM
they won't be in the lineup until Saturday, so we'll see how the team flows without Al, Jack, and Runi tomorrow night.


LOOK AT THE ACTIVE USERS IN THIS THREAD! SCREW WORK HUH?!!

Frank Slade
01-17-2007, 03:41 PM
From the Indystar (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/SPORTS04/70117035)


The Indiana Pacers will hold a 3:30 p.m. press conference to announce an eight-player trade with the Golden State Warriors.

The Pacers are sending starters Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, and reserves Sarunas Jasikevicius and Josh Powell to the Warriors for Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy, Ike Diogu and Keith McLeod

“We feel we made a pretty significant trade for the franchise that will be good for both teams,” said Pacers President of Basketball Operations Larry Bird. “Trades are always painful because you give up players you like, but in this case, we think it’s a good trade that works for both teams. We feel the players we got will make a significant difference in the franchise.”

The players acquired from Golden State will not be in uniform Thursday night when the Pacers play at Miami. They are expected to be in uniform when the Pacers host the New York Knicks Saturday night in Conseco Fieldhouse, the team said

This story will be updated.

Seed
01-17-2007, 03:47 PM
GS fans are absolutely thrilled by the trade. Mostly contract-wise.

Kingsfanbmiller
01-17-2007, 03:47 PM
WOW! If you knew who these guys were, you wouldn't


That is too true:laugh:

Trader Joe
01-17-2007, 03:50 PM
WOW. I was on the computer not even a half hour before this happened and not even a single trade breeze let alone a full blown hurricane. For those saying this is a Bird trade I heartily disagree. This has all the earmarks of a Walsh trade. Out of left field, getting rid of Jack, having the guts to move Al already and picking up Diogu. Diogu and Granger in a year or two could be intimidating for opposing teams. Murphy and Dunleavy while not great are not nearly as bad as they are made out to be. The question I have for GS is what happens when JRich returns? Jack will go to the bench and all hell will break loose.

pwee31
01-17-2007, 03:51 PM
I'm not going to jump to conclusions quite yet! Murphy when healthy can be a solid double double guy. He can rebound and shoot!

Dunleavy is still young, and has shown signs of being a good player. I think he can excel in the right system.

Diogu has a huge upside and should be nice to have.

Mcleod seems like a throw, just like Powell.

I expect to see a starting lineup of:
PG: Tinsley
SG: Dunleavy
SF: Granger
PF: JO
C: Foster

Murphy, and Ike will come off the bench. I'm guessing Orien and DA will split time at PG.

I also wouldn't rule out another trade in the future. Though Murphy and Dunleavy have sizable contracts, they're still more valuable to Jack/AL IMO!

We'll see what happens! I'm interested to see if they'll be dressed for tomorrow's NATIONALLY TELEVISED game!


How long after a trade, does it take for a player to be re-traded? I'm guessing if things don't workout that Dunleavy may end up with dad in a Maggette deal.

You must admit, that this trade has gotten you more interested in the Pacers again. I personally was tired of the .500 ball. So we'll see where this take us. We have pieces to trade now, and who knows.... thing may work out!!

If not then I'll lottery pick is still protected next year as well!

I think we'll be better off. We'll be a better team!:D

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 03:54 PM
GS fans are absolutely thrilled by the trade. Mostly contract-wise.

I agree with DK about the fact that we did add more talent to the roster than we previously had. Sarunas and Powell were both whatever to me. And while I think Jack is better than Dunleavy, I'd rather have Dunleavy given the team's history. So then I look at it as Al for Diogu and Murphy. I'm huge on Ike and have liked Troy's game since he was tearing up the Big East at Notre Dame, so that's a no-brainer.

But that's all assuming we're just talking about talent (and history in Jack's case). Well, the NBA is as much about the salary cap nowadays as talent and it's the "contract-wise" part of it that kills me.

And for that reason, I feel like it's subtraction by addition.

But who knows...the East is terrible, and this team does feel a little better constructed on the court, anyway, than what we had.

I need a nap.

DisplacedKnick
01-17-2007, 03:55 PM
WOW. I was on the computer not even a half hour before this happened and not even a single trade breeze let alone a full blown hurricane. For those saying this is a Bird trade I heartily disagree. This has all the earmarks of a Walsh trade. Out of left field, getting rid of Jack, having the guts to move Al already and picking up Diogu. Diogu and Granger in a year or two could be intimidating for opposing teams. Murphy and Dunleavy while not great are not nearly as bad as they are made out to be. The question I have for GS is what happens when JRich returns? Jack will go to the bench and all hell will break loose.

You think they'll start Jack over Pietrus? Because they won't start him over Ellis.

gph
01-17-2007, 04:07 PM
What a fantastic trade.

I love this. Great step 1, and step 2 seems to be coming. Now...is step 2 moving JO or moving one of these guys again?

First...if the trigger is ever pulled on Dunleavy/Maggette, it might as well be us pulling it.

Secondly, we offload a bloated PG/SG contract for runi and jack and get bloated big man contracts. Much better chance to ace out a big than a guard with attitude problems. Secondly, murphy can play the 4 or 5 and score and rebound. Isn't that what we wanted to compliment JO? Isn't everyones problem with Jeff that he has D and no scoring?

Mcleod is an upgrade over a Kevin Ollie or Eddie Gill, and IMO a fairly nice, cheap option. To me, for those of you drooling over Orien Greene, say hello to Mcleod. he is your new celebrity cause.

Give me Ike over Powell. and really, i like al, but given where we are, murphy fits better. I think you can argue neither of them really have much upside, they are what they are.

The thing that I love the most is that this screams for another deal. Dynamite time. boom baby!!!

RWB
01-17-2007, 04:12 PM
This deal sounds like the Pacers have decided to ride JO as far as we can. Remove everyone who might be willing to challenge his authority and bring in only those who are willing to play a secondary role.

naptown
01-17-2007, 04:13 PM
Ramble ramble ramble.... speculation speculation speculation.....

Lets give it 25 games and see where the CHEMISTRY of this new team stands then. Until then I will sit happily on my fence about this move.

tdubb03
01-17-2007, 04:15 PM
There's got to be another trade looming. I'd say probably involving Dunleavy. We've got Danger and Shawne at the 3 already,

I like Troy Murphy a lot more than any of you guys it seems. Dude's a double double machine. Not quite the rebounder Jeff is, but infinitely more offensive game.

I just hope Larry and Donnie already have a suitor lined up for at least one of these bad contracts. Dunleavy + Harrison = new starting 2?

Naptown_Seth
01-17-2007, 04:18 PM
Let's see if those attendence jumps someone told me would happen if Jackson was traded actually come about. Especially after this version of the team doesn't win any more games than the other version was.

Murph = Al (no defense, 3pt shooter, Al is better at that actually)
Dunleavy at SG??? Really? No way. Just another guy bleeding time from Danny. edit - and Shawne, how could I forget.

Danny at SG? I hope not, he hasn't shown the speed or ability for that position. He's as pure as SFs get IMO.

Ike - um, JO, Foster, Murph...even Baston is still on the team. What's this solve exactly?


I keep hearing all this "team got better" stuff and I still don't see it. What these players ACTUALLY DO ON THE COURT isn't an improvement. I think UncleBuck said it was all about will Ike pan out. I agree, and I don't think he will, at least at the level to justify this.


I'm moving from not sure to "this BETTER NOT BE the end of it". This roster looks like a total mess. The backcourt is now Tins, DA, Greene, Quis, Rawle. Think about that.


As frustrating as the team's inability to consistantly play great this year has been, they HAD played great on many nights and looked better in total than they did to start the season.

Now they become the Hornets. Not getting a top pick, not making the playoffs perhaps, nothing special at all in either direction. You wanted the blandest, you got the blandest.


I'm no Baron fan, but if it was him instead of Ike at the center of this I'd get it totally.


If JO is traded I'm gonna be PO'd, that's for sure. This needs to be about getting him some help after the effort he put in. You are not going to find a better effort from a big than he's been putting in, especially not from Diogu.

Trader Joe
01-17-2007, 04:19 PM
You think they'll start Jack over Pietrus? Because they won't start him over Ellis.

Wow I forgot about Pietrus. I dunno thats a big curve ball. Either way Jack won't take being on the bench for a mediocre team.

Fool
01-17-2007, 04:20 PM
I would call this a DW trade as well (though I'm definately not the one to go to about that). To me it looks like you went back to choosing to add depth over the quality of your starters.

tdubb03
01-17-2007, 04:27 PM
I have to think the Pacers could've gotten Ellis, Richardson, or Pietrus. I'd of been estatic if we'd gotten Pietrus.

Did Mullin tell Larry "if you want us to take Jax, you're taking ALL our bad contracts." Take out Dunleavy, insert Pietrus. If that had been the trade, I'd of liked it A LOT more.

naptown
01-17-2007, 04:27 PM
I have felt all season long that one of the biggest issues with this team was that a few players were not playing selfless enough. Too selfish and not buying into a true team concept.

I think that issue got solved without a drop off in over all talent. The more I look at this trade the more I like it.

tdubb03
01-17-2007, 04:33 PM
I have felt all season long that one of the biggest issues with this team was that a few players were not playing selfless enough. Too selfish and not buying into a true team concept.

I think that issue got solved without a drop off in over all talent. The more I look at this trade the more I like it.

I'm beginning to agree. But the contracts man! I want to see who we move Dunleavy for though. I hope it happens this season, not some stupidity like Danny having to play the 2 the rest of this season.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
01-17-2007, 04:36 PM
Heads up: Pacers press conference is live (I think) on nba.com.

Sorry if this was already posted

porsche
01-17-2007, 04:41 PM
Aight...
What about jersey numbers? We already got numbers 9 and 4 (Baston, Williams, accordingly), Diogu is also No.9 and McLeod is 4.
They will obviously have to change them (unless Maceo or Shawne agrees to give up their current, right?)

There's some rule that if the player wants to change his number, he needs to let NBA know that in advance, in like 6 months if I'm not wrong.

But what about trade cases? Does the player have the right to change his number only if there is already the same number on the roster? Or he might change it despite the fact there's nobody with the same number on the team?

Kegboy
01-17-2007, 04:42 PM
My first thought is that Donnie and Larry need to keep Santa in the loop on these things since he just brought an Al Harrington jersey for my 2 year old............

:console:

You know, you could always take your mind off of it by making me a picture of a Cabbage Patch Kid with a Warriors jersey on. :eyebrow:

As for my thoughts, Anthem's right, this trade will do wonders for the forum. I may just start watching games again. I don't care that Larry just mortgaged our future on not one, but two great white hopes. All I know is my 3 least favorite Pacers are gone! :yay2:

Frank Slade
01-17-2007, 04:44 PM
Can anyone give the summary of the press conference ?

4040
01-17-2007, 04:45 PM
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1341/300pxstatueoflibertyinpkd0.jpg

You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! Damn you all to hell!

ABADays
01-17-2007, 04:49 PM
Laugh if you want but I'm sad to see Runi go. The guy played with fire and I hope this turns out well for him.

Seed
01-17-2007, 04:57 PM
I think the risk taken here was ill-calculated.
DW & LB just made a HUGE bet on Ike Diogu. Unless he delivers big-time, the Pacers have just damned themselves to years of mediocrity.

3rdStrike
01-17-2007, 04:58 PM
WHERE IS THE DRAFT PICK?

I mean, we spent a 1st rounder in what will be one of the deepest drafts in memory and cut James White to take on the salaries of Dunleavy and Murphy?

What.....the......


* as an aside, I'm glad to see Jackson and Harrington go. But you have to get back a draft pick if you're taking back the other team's garbage like that.

kybjones
01-17-2007, 04:59 PM
Harrington, 27 (72nd highest salary, 3 years remaining)
Jackson, 29 (99th highest salary, 3 years remaining)
Jasikevicius, 31 (161st highest salary, 1 year remaining)
Powell, 24 (379th highest salary, expiring contract)

Murphy, 27 (57th highest salary, 4 years remaining)
Dunleavy, 27 (78th highest salary, 4 years remaining)
Diogu, 24 (244th highest salary, 2 years remaining)
McLeod, 28 (301st highest salary, expiring contract)

I'm fine with the players involved. I don't love any of the players we got, but I understand moving a malcontent. It's a slight downgrade IMO, but nothing crazy. The problem is, Larry Legend is mismanaging the financials.

If you are going to downgrade in talent, even slightly, you have to be working towards fixing the roster's financials. Bird has downgraded talent somewhat, while acquiring two more "circa 2002 Austin Croshere contracts" because this past summer no one in the league wanted to touch Murphy or Dunleavy's salaries through 2010.

Look. The Warriors weren't about to part with Beidrins or Ellis. Petrius isn't anything. Davis is injury prone and overpaid. And other than Diogu, Richardson was probably the only other trade commodity they had. No one wanted Murphy or Dunleavy for the remainder of their deals.

The only thing that can salvage the financial mismanagement of this deal is Diogu. If he can turn into a legit big man off the bench (albiet undersized), replace JO if he is dealt, or play as an undersized starting center next to JO, there is a chance it can do the Pacers some good ON THE COURT. In the general ledger, it's a bum deal all around.

1) Firing Isiah
2) Resigning J.O. -- whether you like him or not at his max salary you
had to keep him as a key player and as a trade commodity
3) Drafting Granger

Have there been any other obvious "victories" by the front office in the past few seasons?

In only a year

an affordable Harrington through 2010.
an afffordable but hard to trade cancer in Artest through 2010.
a role player with a short term contract in Jasikevicius
Croshere's expiring contract
Anthony Johnson's expiring contract
2007 1st round pick

have turned into

an untradeable, overpaid Murphy through 2011
an untradeable, overpaid Dunleavy through 2011
a hard to trade, overpaid Daniels through 2010
a young role player with "some" potential to become a double double guy in Diogu
a 38 year old stopgap, sparkplug backup PG in Armstrong
a throw in journeyman in McLeod.
a throw in prospect in Marshall.
a check paid immediatley to Jon Edwards.

Had Bird held on to those expiring contracts, he could have packaged those together with any combination of guys from the roster to do some really interesting deals for a star player or an overpaid or aging player with an expiring contract to begin rebuilding in 2007-08.

Instead, our cap situation has gone from bad to worse and we are stuck with mediocre, overpaid talent over the luxury tax that is going to be difficult to move probably until Summer 2010. The pain has been prolonged.

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 04:59 PM
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1341/300pxstatueoflibertyinpkd0.jpg

You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! Damn you all to hell!

We need to trade JO for Capspace. Because lets face it, even if you do like JO we are locked up with bad contracts till after he could do anything. Even if you think he is hte answer he isn't going to have any help till its too late.

rexnom
01-17-2007, 04:59 PM
I see this as a stylistic trade in many ways as well. The three core guys we're getting just couldn't play Nellie-ball. I think they can be a lot more effective under Rick.

FrenchConnection
01-17-2007, 05:05 PM
I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but lets take a close look at Larry's comments on the trade:


"We feel we made a pretty significant trade for the franchise that will be good for both teams,” said Pacers President of Basketball Operations Larry Bird. “Trades are always painful because you give up players you like, but in this case, we think it’s a good trade that works for both teams. We feel the players we got will make a significant difference in the franchise.”

That last statement is rather ambiguous if you ask me. I really think that one or more of the bigs, probably Murphy, will be moving on before the 24 hour window is closed. I have no idea for whom, but I do think that he will never play for Indiana.

v_d_g
01-17-2007, 05:07 PM
While I'll never forgive TPTB for giving up our 207 #1 for AL:

This is a joyous day for a number of reasons:

1) AL is gone --- NOT clutch, can't guard anybody, can't board

2) Sharunas is gone --- why is this guy in the NBA?

3) Jackson is gone ---- when did he ever make a difference?

5) Diogu is coming ----- finally, a post presence

4) Tinsley is gone --- I WISH

back on course

at least Murphy and Dunleavy can shoot the ball and Murphy can board and Dunleavy can pass.

Maybe we will no longer be at the bottom in terms of team shooting percentage. Maybe we can now become watchable

Can't believe the whinning over losing AL and Sharunas --- you guys have to be kidding.

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 05:08 PM
Never said a difference for the better.

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 05:11 PM
Greg Rakestraw just earned my respect. He rightfully knew that Ike was the player the Pacers wanted and that Ike is the key to the deal.

JMV is out to lunch and I usually like JMV better


I watched the press conference on Pacers.com although I missed the first minute or two.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 05:12 PM
I dont understand why we did this trade OTHER then Ike "FEED THE BEAST".

Murphy is going to help JO like Brad Miller, but Brad could pass the ball some and was willing to pass it. Murphy does not pass the ball this guy jacks shots up also, not like Al but he does it.

Dunleavy just sucks, he is horrible, other then his 3 point shot, which isnt that good he is a bad player. With a horrible contract. His nicknames around the Bay are Stiffleavy,Dumplevy,Dungina.

Jack and Al, peace. I like Al, liked Jack, didnt like how how played. Ohh well. I dont run the franchise all I do is watch.

We got 2 horrible contracts back, just so we could trade Jack. WHATEVER.

IKE FEED THE BEAST

Aw Heck
01-17-2007, 05:12 PM
I agree with the thinking that this must be a precursor to another trade. Maybe the Pacers inquired about Kidd or Carter and were told they needed certain pieces. Maybe this trade was about getting those pieces. Or maybe we finally are trading JO.

One thing's for sure, we don't have a starting-quality SG right now. And our frontcourt is loaded with O'Neal, Foster, Murphy, Diogu, Baston, and Harrison. Not enough minutes to go around.

There has to be another move...right?

rexnom
01-17-2007, 05:20 PM
I agree with the thinking that this must be a precursor to another trade. Maybe the Pacers inquired about Kidd or Carter and were told they needed certain pieces. Maybe this trade was about getting those pieces. Or maybe we finally are trading JO.

One thing's for sure, we don't have a starting-quality SG right now. And our frontcourt is loaded with O'Neal, Foster, Murphy, Diogu, Baston, and Harrison. Not enough minutes to go around.

There has to be another move...right?
I like this trade but are we at the point where if there isn't another trade it's a disappointement?

bnd45
01-17-2007, 05:21 PM
Maceo Baston is the only guy in the rotation who will lose his minutes.

Other than that Shawne Williams' role and future are now huge ????'s. Too many guys are ahead of him at the 3 and 4. This is the only negative to the deal in my opinion (the $ issue is meaningless as UB has pointed out in several different threads. Also, how many FA's list the Pacers as their top choice every summer?)

I'm pumped that Marquis Daniels role is going to expand. He should now start at the 2 and be given a chance to take his game to the next level (Dunleavy and Granger can't consistently play the 2)

Granger will still get the same minutes despite 2 bigs coming off the bench (Ike and Murph) Instead of playing the 4 for short stints he will now play a little 2. We can always go zone if him and Dunleavy are the 2 and 3.

Seed
01-17-2007, 05:21 PM
What's expected for our guys with the Warriors:

Al will start at PF, good move for him.

Jax will have to prove a lot to have a major role, considering Nellie's opinions, and GS guards abundance. If Jax stays focused enough he might do it.

Saras will get consistent backup minutes there. Good trade for him, except he won't have his shot at the title..

ChicagoJ
01-17-2007, 05:28 PM
Jay's take on the trade:

Incoming

Dunleavy - I like Mike, Jr., a lot. He's smart. He plays well under pressure. He can make up for his lack of athleticism by making smart plays.

Are we ever going to like him on the defensive end of the court? Heck, no. But he can bring a lot of intangibles with him, and I look forward to seeing if Rick will use him in a point-forward role. I have no problem with him starting ahead of Granger (or vise versa.) I've wanted Brent Barry for this team for years, to me Dunleavy is just a younger version of BB. I don't care about his contract, its the price you pay to unload a guy right before he goes on a felony trial.

Neither Dun nor Granger should play SG, IMO. So the team may (or may not) still need another move there.

Troy - I didn't want Troy when this team still had Croshere. I think he's a fine "fit" with this team. Since he's more physical and rugged than Foster, I like the flexibility Rick now has with those guys.

Ike - :drool:

David is now expendable. And I'll miss David. But I really like Ike.

the Guard - can't even remember his name as I type this... He may be a throw-in. Or he may be better than O. Greene. I don't know. We'd all like to see Greene's "upside", but there is a reason that we were able to claim him off waivers.

Outgoing

Al - There's no way we get Ike without including Al, so this is a no-brainer, IMO. I liked the idea of getting Al for nothing. I liked the idea of a 4-out with Al and Granger at the forward spots. But Al isn't a SF, and if he was impeding with Granger AND playing out of position, he was expendable. And since Rick didn't like the four-out, Al was just in everyone's way, the square peg getting driven into a round hole.

Does anybody think we can possibly make this trade without getting Al last summer? That's exactly the reason why you pursue a player in that situation, something the Pacers haven't always done in the past. Who was the runner up in that bidding? The Warriors. Who were we trying to get last winter for Artest? Diogu. Its all come full circle, I guess.

Jackson - Good riddance. I didn't want him the in first place, found his game and his attitude to be repulsive the entire time he was here. I can't believe Mullin is trading for him *before* the trial. Either Bird dug up some nasty pictures of Mullin and blackmailed him, or Mullin is really banking on a conviction and the ability to void the contract. Either way, he's a bad fit for the Warriors considering they still have JRich, Pietrus, and the young kid that play the same position and are all better than Jackson. How's he going to like being seventh man? (And for that matter, how is Al going to like being the third option with two guards that dominate the ball in Baron Davis and Richardson... Nellie: good luck with that.)

Saras - Probably went to the one place where he'll get even fewer minutes or have an even smaller role than in Indiana where Davis, Ellis, Richardson, Peitrus and Jackson are going to gobble up all the backcourt minutes. Still, if there is an NBA coach that can invent a role for Saras, its Nellie. I just don't know why he'd take minutes away from Davis, Ellis, Richardson and Peitrus for him.

And considering the contempt he's displayed towards Indiana and the NBA, it couldn't happen to a better guy. Good riddance.

Powell - I really liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason. But it didn't translate to the regular season, so I guess there's no big loss here.

Was this a "Bird" move or a "Walsh" move? It looks to me like a Bird move - mostly because it was to get rid of a couple of players that did not fit in the image of Larry Bird, and acquire a couple of players that do. Like trading for Chris Mullin.

Contract status. Dunleavy's and Murphy's contracts are outrageous, no doubt about that. But cap space never helps anybody win games. I think cap flexibility is overrated. Its important if you don't like your current players, and that's why the Knicks are in such bad shape. But if you like your current players, its just a cost of doing business. Do the Pacers ever make big splashes in free agency? No. Does "lack of cap flexibility" keep the Pacers from making trades when management wants to make trades? No.

Depth chart as I see it:

PG - Tinsley, {pick one: McLeod, Greene, Armstrong}
SG - Daniels, Marshall
SF - Dunleavy, Granger
PF - JO, Murphy, Baston
C - Ike, Foster, Harrison

Actual playing rotation

JT, MDan, MDun, JO, Ike, PG-TBD, DG, TM or JF based on matchups.

This is a better team for Rick Carlisle to coach than the Pacers we've seen on the court recently. The babysitting he's had to waste too much time on can finally come to halt, and now he can go back to x's and o's and find a way to use Dunleavy at point forward, can mix and match Murphy and Foster based on matchups, has another banger to pair with JO, and can bring Granger along at the right pace (and our collective lack of patience with Granger's progress needs to take rest.)

Outlook: Could Tinsley, Foster and/or Harrison be packaged to upgrade our backcourt? I think so. There is still time to make additional moves if necessary.

Many of us felt the rebuilding was incomplete last summer, and IMO this gets us one step closer to a finished project. And I'm finally happy with where its going. So far, this team has kept the four players I wanted to keep: JO, Granger, Tinsley, and Harrison. If a legit PG or C could be obtained, I could part with Tinsley and Harrison, and as I said above, Diogu might turn out to be the guy that makes Harrison expendable in my mind.

Anyway, we wanted a shake-up, and we wanted "likeable" players. TPTB seems to have delivered on both requests. I'm happy to give this trade time to work.

bulldog
01-17-2007, 05:29 PM
We need to trade JO for Capspace. Because lets face it, even if you do like JO we are locked up with bad contracts till after he could do anything. Even if you think he is hte answer he isn't going to have any help till its too late.

That's so ridiculous its laughable. With Murphy and Dunleavy on the roster, there's no point in JO. Why would we trade JO for cap space and still be over the cap? Sorry, but its a pet peeve of mine when fans yell about NBA players big contracts and argue for cap-saving moves. Yea, they're overpaid, but if you're the GM of an NBA team there's no point in making a cap saving move unless your team needs the financial help or you're looking to get significantly under the cap and make another signing.


Greg Rakestraw just earned my respect. He rightfully knew that Ike was the player the Pacers wanted and that Ike is the key to the deal.

I think you're overstating your case.
Murphy and Dunleavy are two veterans who, although they are underachievers for the amount they're paid and their earlier expectations, have several great skills they'll bring to this team.
Some of their poor play is attributable to Don Nelson's system, not everyone is comfortable playing run and gun.
I think the arrival of Mike, Ike, and Troy signals more half-court basketball, but we've become better on the boards and will be able to move the ball better in a slow down game.
Ike is key, but Troy and Mike are solid players.
Now their contracts are a totally different situation entirely.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 05:43 PM
You know what I like about the trade. JASIKAVICUS GOT TRADED YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Thank THE LORD. Now we will see who is really a Pacers fan and who is a Jasikavicus fan.

Jack and Al wont fit in right in Nellies offense, they can sure jack shots up but they suck on the fast break. Well atleast Al wont be asked to play defense in GS.

Aw Heck
01-17-2007, 05:45 PM
I like this trade but are we at the point where if there isn't another trade it's a disappointement?
I think we do need backcourt help. It needs to be addressed for sure by the deadline or this offseason. But it's not a disappointment so far. We got rid of Jack, and:

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466&stc=1&d=1169070313
1430_xweb.jpg

pizza guy
01-17-2007, 05:48 PM
Here's my take:

1.) JACKSON IS GONE!!!!
2.) Al, who simply didn't fit with JO, is gone.
3.) Sarunas didn't really fit here. Some people think he just doesn't have talent, but I disagree. Hopefully, for him, GS is a better fit.
4.) Powell...oh well.
5.) The news guys seem to fit well with JO and RC's system.
6.) This is just the beginning, there are more deals on the horizon.
7.) JACKSON IS GONE!!!!
8.) Their contracts are hideous.
9.) We should have been able to pull a draft pick out of it.
10.) Guys like Greene and Williams should be able to get more minutes, and that's a plus.

Obviously, only time will tell how good this deal really is--especially if it's just a set-up deal for the next move. Either way, it's nice to see them shake it up some more, and try to improve the team some how. I'm excited about Diogu, and I like Murphy. DunDun is a push to me, we'll see. McLeod is a complete question mark.

JACKSON IS GONE!!!!

naptown
01-17-2007, 05:50 PM
Rock on Jay!! Pretty good breakdown.

Except about Saras. You put the ball in his hands as a PG in a true up tempo offense (not what the Pacers were doing) and I think you have one of the leagues best back up point guards.

Seed
01-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Jay's
Saras - Probably went to the one place where he'll get even fewer minutes or have an even smaller role than in Indiana where Davis, Ellis, Richardson, Peitrus and Jackson are going to gobble up all the backcourt minutes. Still, if there is an NBA coach that can invent a role for Saras, its Nellie. I just don't know why he'd take minutes away from Davis, Ellis, Richardson and Peitrus for him.

And considering the contempt he's displayed towards Indiana and the NBA, it couldn't happen to a better guy. Good riddance.

You got it wrong this time, Jay.
GSW are craving for a back-up PG. Baron plays way too many minutes, and is injury prone. Saras will get his shot there. consider also that GSW just sent their back-up PG to the Pacers (that's the guy who's name you don't remember).

As for his so-called 'contempt' to the NBA, here you are reaching and plain inventing stuff. When legit criticism is considered as 'contempt', that's a bad sign. That's sad, and unfair for a guy who gave his 100% on the court, and expressed his appreciation for the NBA, the Pacers club and the Pacers fans on numerous occasions. Goodbye Sarunas, and good luck.

avoidingtheclowns
01-17-2007, 05:53 PM
I don’t know if there is a clear winner in the trade… which may in fact make it a really solid trade.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>
I have to agree that there are probably more trades on the horizon. It doesn’t make sense to bring in a bunch of forwards and a back up PG. Those are the positions we were overstocked with to begin with. I think this move signals either Harrison or Foster being traded (or maybe both). Ike is a more promising <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Harrison</st1:place>, and Murphy is a more offensively talented Foster (albeit a lesser defensive presence).
<o:p> </o:p>
I think this indicates us going back to the half-court set rather than up-tempo. Dun and Murphy were out of Nellie’s rotation for a reason. I don’t think its because they aren’t decent or competent players but not as helpful in Nellie’s “run-gun, defense-what?” style.
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m shocked that we picked up both Dun and Murphy’s contracts without <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Richardson</st1:place></st1:City> being involved. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jackson</st1:place></st1:City>’s contract wasn’t favorable but I always felt JT’s was worse because of the length, and now you have 2 more players on salary thru 2010? How did we not end up with a draft pick out of this?
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m surprised to see both Jax and Al traded. I assumed it’d be one or the other (my guess was that Jax would be headed to <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Utah</st1:place></st1:State>). I thought Runi would thrive in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Phoenix</st1:place></st1:City>, which is sorta the same thing as GS. Powell, I gotta say, maybe he didn’t get the minutes he should have here, but in the preseason it was Marshall who was impressive, not Powell (at least from what I can recall). So I’m not broken up about him.
<o:p> </o:p>
A few people have mentioned a Murphy / Brad Miller connection… I think this could be dead on. Not about Murphy becoming Miller per se, more that I think this is what TPTB had in mind. I think Murphy could very well grow into a role very similar to what Miller played with JO. As for Dun, I’ve always felt he and Luke Walton were almost identical… until this season when Walton developed a nice 3pt shot. I would have preferred Walton over Dun, but the non-shooting offensive skills are identical.
<o:p> </o:p>
Okay, not a lot of time has been spent on the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Golden</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> perspective (rightly so, as this is a Pacers board). The <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Golden</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">State</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> depth chart looks something like this…
<o:p> </o:p>
Baron Davis / Sarunas Jasikevicius
Monta Ellis / Kelena Azubuike / Jason Richardson (injured)
Stephen Jackson / Mickel Pietrus / Matt Barnes (injured)
Al Harrington / Zarko Cabarkapa / Josh Powell
Andre Biedrins / Adonal Foyle / Patrick O’Bryant (d-league)
<o:p> </o:p>
I think everyone but Powell helps out immediately. Between SG/SF you’ve got a solid rotation of three in Ellis, Pietrus and Jax (Harrington too depending on how Nellie plays it). Baron Davis, like JT, is an injury waiting to happen, so I would think Runi is very attractive to Nellie. Here is the question: how much does this help the Warriors long-term? I think it gives them the leverage to trade JRich but does the squad have any more chemistry than what they just traded away? Does this team perform any better? I know someone just predicted a Warriors championship, but I really don’t see that happening with this lineup.
<o:p> </o:p>
In conclusion… I think the move indicates this isn’t the last trade. I think the move is okay, hate the salaries, more optimistic about the chemistry and talent.

aceace
01-17-2007, 06:18 PM
I'm expecting Oneal,Foster,Tins,Granger and Marquis to start. Anybody thats upset with this trade is someone that loves mediocrity, brawls, hot and cold shooting etc. Dunleavy and Murphy could be much better here. Ike has a solid future. I expect him to improve. As Bob Ryan (Boston Globe)said just a few minutes ago on ESPN. Bird and Walsh are not stupid, advantage Pacers. He said Golden State may buy out Jacksons contract (does that tell you anything)

Moses
01-17-2007, 06:38 PM
Eek, I'm not the biggest fan of this trade. We gave away too much for too little..but that's what happens when you have problem guys like Jackson. We'll see how this works out. I'm glad we got rid of Jackson and Harrington though. They would have kept us at mediocrity if that was our path...now we are either going to improve or drastically un-improve very soon. So either lottery bound (not so bad) or championship bound (pretty good).

Mourning
01-17-2007, 06:47 PM
You got it wrong this time, Jay.
GSW are craving for a back-up PG. Baron plays way too many minutes, and is injury prone. Saras will get his shot there. consider also that GSW just sent their back-up PG to the Pacers (that's the guy who's name you don't remember).

As for his so-called 'contempt' to the NBA, here you are reaching and plain inventing stuff. When legit criticism is considered as 'contempt', that's a bad sign. That's sad, and unfair for a guy who gave his 100% on the court, and expressed his appreciation for the NBA, the Pacers club and the Pacers fans on numerous occasions. Goodbye Sarunas, and good luck.

I have to agree 100% with Seed here.

I'm starting to warm up on this trade and like others I agree that another trade HAS to be on the horizon because we are so stocked on our frontcourt positions and even shallower in the backcourt then we allready were that we have have to do something there. There's too much imbalance in that sense.

I'm afraid, UB, that Foster might very well be the one that's going to get moved maybe with David? Probably for some point guard help from team(s) that need to upgrade their frontcourt.

Quickly what I like about this trade is that we seem to be building a new nucleus of young players in Danny, Shawne and Ike that can play around JO who will be more then ever asked to be the leader, which is probably going to be easier because these guys are younger, less experienced and in essence want to listen and show what they can do, they are less likely (compared to say some veterans we had) to nod "yes" and think "no".

I also like that we just got a lot more offense AND rebounding from the frontcourt positions in Ike and Murphy. I THINK, not sure yet though, that we also got the better deal in the sense of team oriented players with regards to sharing the ball and basketball IQ.

What I don't like is pretty obvious: big contracts for long periods that could hostage our franchise which makes Croshere seem like a little mistake AND I think we got a lot worse defensively as both DunLeavy Jr. and Murphy are known as atrocious defenders. In McLeod we got a defensive specialist back in the back court at PG for minimum minutes probably.

Also maybe even catastrophic with these high scale contracts that we add is that we need to get rid of some salaries starting next summer probably to be able to re-sign the guys we REALLY want too namely: Danny and Ike in the same year (right?) and Shawne the year after that. That will cost the franchise a lot of money and what is the team going to do to be able to find that money when it's so near or over (?) the luxury tax?

They will either have to let one or more of these promising players go or pay they which means others will have to go. Diogu and Danny will get big paydays, Diogu in particular if he succeeds here.

I dare not say it :uhoh:, but could JO be moved this summer or the year after? Because that for expirings and picks (we don't have any this year... uh oh) would give the sort of room I think we would need to get Danny and Ike first, Shawne probably later, back. I don't want to let JO go though, maybe only if we get a VERY high draft pick and some huger expirings.

Another thing is we could make a move about well... now for a PG/SG that has a BIG contract now and hope it expires in the summer of not 2007 but 2008.

No way a huge contract that expires this coming summer will get traded to us IF we would be unwilling to offer JO, Danny, Diogu and Shawne in exchange and we don't have draft picks to entice anyone.

So, I think we should start looking for medium to high salaried guards that have their contracts end in 2008.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

317Kim
01-17-2007, 06:51 PM
Oh My Buddha.

Where in the world did this trade come from?
I'm upset, but still kind of in the "Woah, there's no way that just happened" stage.

I'm going to miss these guys.

Leisure Suit Larry
01-17-2007, 06:53 PM
I'm going to miss Al, Jack, and Sarunas but I like Ike and the other two are alright. I think it'll be a good trade.

arenn
01-17-2007, 06:54 PM
Hope this isn't a dupe, but PD has been wiped out all day.

I just can't believe this deal - very surprising. I'm going to reserve judgement at this time. One thing I can say is that the status quo was clearly intolerable, so I do think a midseason move of some sort was warranted. Not sold yet that this is the right one, but not going to reflexively bash it either.

Roferr
01-17-2007, 06:54 PM
That a trade came off doesn't surprise me but I was thinking that DW/LB were thinking more like Kidd.

Well, one good thing out of the trade will be a little help for JO. Murphy will be somewhat like Brad, a great rebounder with a decent shot to keep the defense honest. I doubt that Murphy and Foster will be playing much at the same time.

I think the trade will help both teams as they were stagnant and new surroundings will rejuvenate both. I think the team chemistry will be better. Al won't have to compete with JO for touches and can do his thing out west.

It'll be quite interesting to see how Jax and Al blend in with them taking a huge hunk of the offense. Also, I honestly believe that Sarunas will come into his own.

Without Al and Jax, Williams and Granger should get more minutes. Maybe even Baston depending on how Diogu works out.

I like the trade and think both teams will improve. Mark down their records so that we can watch the trend.

Maybe, Dunleavy's attitude will improve with different surroundings. He's been a big bust so far.

Team Indy
01-17-2007, 07:01 PM
Jay's take on the trade:


This is a better team for Rick Carlisle to coach than the Pacers we've seen on the court recently. The babysitting he's had to waste too much time on can finally come to halt, and now he can go back to x's and o's and find a way to use Dunleavy at point forward, can mix and match Murphy and Foster based on matchups, has another banger to pair with JO, and can bring Granger along at the right pace (and our collective lack of patience with Granger's progress needs to take rest.)

Outlook: Could Tinsley, Foster and/or Harrison be packaged to upgrade our backcourt? I think so. There is still time to make additional moves if necessary.

Many of us felt the rebuilding was incomplete last summer, and IMO this gets us one step closer to a finished project. And I'm finally happy with where its going. So far, this team has kept the four players I wanted to keep: JO, Granger, Tinsley, and Harrison. If a legit PG or C could be obtained, I could part with Tinsley and Harrison, and as I said above, Diogu might turn out to be the guy that makes Harrison expendable in my mind.

Anyway, we wanted a shake-up, and we wanted "likeable" players. TPTB seems to have delivered on both requests. I'm happy to give this trade time to work.

I think this is one aspect of the trade that's overlooked. These players are more coachable. This means that Rick Carlisle, who is a fantastic coach, will be able to implement schemes on both sides of the ball and have his players execute accordingly. The Pacers will be better because JO will be able to do his thing and RC will also be able to do his thing.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 07:05 PM
Sac is only 2 hours away from Oakland. You know what that means.

WE RIDE TOGETHER BABY - Once again.

naptown
01-17-2007, 07:08 PM
Folks... if we are going to get through Detroit or Miami.... we need to be STACKED in the front court. With Detroit getting CWebb and Shaq getting in shape for the playoffs.... they are both stacked up front. We need the depth.

This was a move made to win now as much as down the road.

ChicagoJ
01-17-2007, 07:10 PM
You got it wrong this time, Jay.
GSW are craving for a back-up PG. Baron plays way too many minutes, and is injury prone. Saras will get his shot there. consider also that GSW just sent their back-up PG to the Pacers (that's the guy who's name you don't remember).

He may get a chance, but if I were Nellie I'd much rather have Ellis getting the PG minutes when BDavis is on the bench. (Especially when J-Rich returns, that's a pretty damn good three-guard rotation.)

:twocents:

Eindar
01-17-2007, 07:15 PM
My take on this is that we removed the two guys who hindered ball movement this year, being Al and Jack. Jack because he never met a shot he didn't like, and Al because while the intent was there, Al is just a terrible passer.

Yes, we're in Salary Cap Hell as it stands now, and we have 5 PFs if you include Jeff. Does this mean more moves are incoming? Maybe, I don't know. All I know is that the team got a lot smarter and a fair bit less athletic.

Of course, if we manage to pull the Dunleavy for Maggette trade off, this trade looks a WHOLE lot better!

My big concern is that this will be like a gun flare telling Tinsley that the running experiment is over, and we'll start seeing some sinusitis problems again.

OnlyPacersLeft
01-17-2007, 07:16 PM
I hate this trade...wtf we get the awful contract of dunleavy and troy murphy!? he sucks! Ike has potential but not for another 2-3 years!
whoa..

CableKC
01-17-2007, 07:16 PM
How will the Big Man PF/C rotation play out?

JONeal will play his standard 35 mpg.
Foster will play his standard 22 to 24 mpg.

That leaves between 37 to 39 mpg to split between Murphy and Ike. Unless the plan is to completely ignore Murphy and somehow give him less minutes then Ike.....Ike will be the 4th Big Man in the rotation.....getting between 10 to 15 mpg.

I get the sense that Ike will encounter the same problem that he did under the Warriors.....he's stuck behind a platoon of Big Men. He may have very solid offensive skills....but the rest of his game ( defense and tendency to get into foul trouble ) cannot justify him getting significant minutes over Murphy ( something that has to happen in order for him to develop....just like Harrison before he got exiled into Carlisle's doghouse ).

Question....wouldn't Ike's offensive game fit the type of slow-proding offense that we ran last season ( as opposed to the type of faster paced offense that we run now )?

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 07:26 PM
Contract status. Dunleavy's and Murphy's contracts are outrageous, no doubt about that. But cap space never helps anybody win games. I think cap flexibility is overrated. Its important if you don't like your current players, and that's why the Knicks are in such bad shape. But if you like your current players, its just a cost of doing business. Do the Pacers ever make big splashes in free agency? No. Does "lack of cap flexibility" keep the Pacers from making trades when management wants to make trades? No.



I hear you somewhat, and I am probably one of those that is always guilty of over-scrutinizing things based on the cap...but there is still the long-term implications of re-signing both Danny and Ike. I know it's a ways down the line and it's likely that one or more of the large, long-term contracts (JO/Murphy/Dunleavy/Tinsley) will be gone, but it still is a concern. I mean, our cap number for '09-10 is already at $51 million. And that's before making Danny or Ike an offer.




Many of us felt the rebuilding was incomplete last summer, and IMO this gets us one step closer to a finished project. And I'm finally happy with where its going.

I agree that we've been able to do a lot more in a shorter time than I thought possible. I mean, we currently have four guys on the team that ever played with Ron Artest. And hey, I've often called both Jack and Tinsley untradeable. And I, and a lot of supposed insiders, have also considered Murphy and Dunleavy untradeable. Maybe, having three "untradeable" guys in one trade scenario balances the equation or something, but maybe it's time to re-evaluate this untradeable thing. Contracts are getting smaller, and there are so many bad ones out there, that it may be looked at as a cost of doing business in this League. Maybe it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be.

Or maybe I'm just talking myself off the ledge and pretending that we didn't just acquire over $95 million worth of soft, white dudes.

ChicagoJ
01-17-2007, 07:32 PM
Murphy ain't "soft." For that matter, Foster, who relies only on quickness, is much "softer" than Murphy.

Dunleavy isn't a great defender, but I don't think I'd call him "soft."

In fact, released from the burden of being drafted way too high (not his fault), I expect him to flourish with the Pacers against a more reasonable set of expectations.

madison
01-17-2007, 07:35 PM
Well, many wanted TPTB to do something -- and, they did. I suspect few will cry over the departure of Jackson, Powell, etc. Harrington is another matter. He is/was well liked. Still, he hasn't really contributed to this year's squad. It's hard to understand what's happened to him. His defense degenerated markedly from the 61-game year, and his rebounding just disappeared. Then, there's Runi. You either loved him or wondered what he was doing in the NBA. No matter which side of the fence you are on with regard to Runi, there's no denying he's not a starter and isn't going to be so his loss is minimal. So, what did we get in return? Pretty hard to say since GS is in the West and we play them just two times a year and they're not on ESPN, etc. very often because GS is not fun to watch. Many will question if the Pacers got 'equal value'. It may not matter. That's because what this trade accomplished isn't an infusion of new, great talent. Rather, it now makes it possible to start Granger and Daniels. Now, will we make more trades this month? I don't think so, but of course, I don't have any real insight into Bird's thinking -- yes, I think this was a Bird orchastrated deal. The trouble with making more trades right now is the fact that LB would be doing so blind. You have to give this new group some time to jell and see what they can do. The next trade will be made this summer.

Roferr
01-17-2007, 07:36 PM
Jay's take on the trade:

Incoming

Dunleavy - I like Mike, Jr., a lot. He's smart. He plays well under pressure. He can make up for his lack of athleticism by making smart plays.

Are we ever going to like him on the defensive end of the court? Heck, no. But he can bring a lot of intangibles with him, and I look forward to seeing if Rick will use him in a point-forward role. I have no problem with him starting ahead of Granger (or vise versa.) I've wanted Brent Barry for this team for years, to me Dunleavy is just a younger version of BB. I don't care about his contract, its the price you pay to unload a guy right before he goes on a felony trial.

Neither Dun nor Granger should play SG, IMO. So the team may (or may not) still need another move there.

Troy - I didn't want Troy when this team still had Croshere. I think he's a fine "fit" with this team. Since he's more physical and rugged than Foster, I like the flexibility Rick now has with those guys.

Ike - :drool:

David is now expendable. And I'll miss David. But I really like Ike.

the Guard - can't even remember his name as I type this... He may be a throw-in. Or he may be better than O. Greene. I don't know. We'd all like to see Greene's "upside", but there is a reason that we were able to claim him off waivers.

Outgoing

Al - There's no way we get Ike without including Al, so this is a no-brainer, IMO. I liked the idea of getting Al for nothing. I liked the idea of a 4-out with Al and Granger at the forward spots. But Al isn't a SF, and if he was impeding with Granger AND playing out of position, he was expendable. And since Rick didn't like the four-out, Al was just in everyone's way, the square peg getting driven into a round hole.

Does anybody think we can possibly make this trade without getting Al last summer? That's exactly the reason why you pursue a player in that situation, something the Pacers haven't always done in the past. Who was the runner up in that bidding? The Warriors. Who were we trying to get last winter for Artest? Diogu. Its all come full circle, I guess.

Jackson - Good riddance. I didn't want him the in first place, found his game and his attitude to be repulsive the entire time he was here. I can't believe Mullin is trading for him *before* the trial. Either Bird dug up some nasty pictures of Mullin and blackmailed him, or Mullin is really banking on a conviction and the ability to void the contract. Either way, he's a bad fit for the Warriors considering they still have JRich, Pietrus, and the young kid that play the same position and are all better than Jackson. How's he going to like being seventh man? (And for that matter, how is Al going to like being the third option with two guards that dominate the ball in Baron Davis and Richardson... Nellie: good luck with that.)

Saras - Probably went to the one place where he'll get even fewer minutes or have an even smaller role than in Indiana where Davis, Ellis, Richardson, Peitrus and Jackson are going to gobble up all the backcourt minutes. Still, if there is an NBA coach that can invent a role for Saras, its Nellie. I just don't know why he'd take minutes away from Davis, Ellis, Richardson and Peitrus for him.

And considering the contempt he's displayed towards Indiana and the NBA, it couldn't happen to a better guy. Good riddance.

Powell - I really liked what I saw from Powell in the preseason. But it didn't translate to the regular season, so I guess there's no big loss here.

Was this a "Bird" move or a "Walsh" move? It looks to me like a Bird move - mostly because it was to get rid of a couple of players that did not fit in the image of Larry Bird, and acquire a couple of players that do. Like trading for Chris Mullin.

Contract status. Dunleavy's and Murphy's contracts are outrageous, no doubt about that. But cap space never helps anybody win games. I think cap flexibility is overrated. Its important if you don't like your current players, and that's why the Knicks are in such bad shape. But if you like your current players, its just a cost of doing business. Do the Pacers ever make big splashes in free agency? No. Does "lack of cap flexibility" keep the Pacers from making trades when management wants to make trades? No.

Depth chart as I see it:

PG - Tinsley, {pick one: McLeod, Greene, Armstrong}
SG - Daniels, Marshall
SF - Dunleavy, Granger
PF - JO, Murphy, Baston
C - Ike, Foster, Harrison

Actual playing rotation

JT, MDan, MDun, JO, Ike, PG-TBD, DG, TM or JF based on matchups.

This is a better team for Rick Carlisle to coach than the Pacers we've seen on the court recently. The babysitting he's had to waste too much time on can finally come to halt, and now he can go back to x's and o's and find a way to use Dunleavy at point forward, can mix and match Murphy and Foster based on matchups, has another banger to pair with JO, and can bring Granger along at the right pace (and our collective lack of patience with Granger's progress needs to take rest.)

Outlook: Could Tinsley, Foster and/or Harrison be packaged to upgrade our backcourt? I think so. There is still time to make additional moves if necessary.

Many of us felt the rebuilding was incomplete last summer, and IMO this gets us one step closer to a finished project. And I'm finally happy with where its going. So far, this team has kept the four players I wanted to keep: JO, Granger, Tinsley, and Harrison. If a legit PG or C could be obtained, I could part with Tinsley and Harrison, and as I said above, Diogu might turn out to be the guy that makes Harrison expendable in my mind.

Anyway, we wanted a shake-up, and we wanted "likeable" players. TPTB seems to have delivered on both requests. I'm happy to give this trade time to work.

I agree with most of your appraisals of the players but I don't think the Pacers or Warriors will stand pat with these teams. GS is heavy in the back court so it wouldn't surprise me if Runi will be moved on. We are now heavy downlow and it wouldn't surprise me if a big name or two will be moved on for Kidd.

ChicagoJ
01-17-2007, 07:44 PM
Roferr,

I agree that the Pacers probably still need to make a move for another wing player. I think that might still be more important (and easier) that attempting to upgrade at PG.

JayRedd
01-17-2007, 07:44 PM
Murphy ain't "soft." For that matter, Foster, who relies only on quickness, is much "softer" than Murphy.

Dunleavy isn't a great defender, but I don't think I'd call him "soft."

In fact, released from the burden of being drafted way too high (not his fault), I expect him to flourish with the Pacers against a more reasonable set of expectations.

I actually like what both guys bring to the table offensively a good deal. But "soft" was the best adjective I could come up with at the moment to describe the "Movable Object" and "Matador" defensive talents of Murphy and Dunleavy, respectively.

Let's just say we're not dealing with Charles Oakley and Bobby Jones here and leave it at that.

Roferr
01-17-2007, 07:46 PM
I hear you somewhat, and I am probably one of those that is always guilty of over-scrutinizing things based on the cap...but there is still the long-term implications of re-signing both Danny and Ike. I know it's a ways down the line and it's likely that one or more of the large, long-term contracts (JO/Murphy/Dunleavy/Tinsley) will be gone, but it still is a concern. I mean, our cap number for '09-10 is already at $51 million. And that's before making Danny or Ike an offer.





I agree that we've been able to do a lot more in a shorter time than I thought possible. I mean, we currently have four guys on the team that ever played with Ron Artest. And hey, I've often called both Jack and Tinsley untradeable. And I, and a lot of supposed insiders, have also considered Murphy and Dunleavy untradeable. Maybe, having three "untradeable" guys in one trade scenario balances the equation or something, but maybe it's time to re-evaluate this untradeable thing. Contracts are getting smaller, and there are so many bad ones out there, that it may be looked at as a cost of doing business in this League. Maybe it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be.

Or maybe I'm just talking myself off the ledge and pretending that we didn't just acquire over $95 million worth of soft, white dudes.

How in the hell do you figure Murphy is soft? In his rookie year too many players assumed that and found out the hard way. He wouldn't back down to anyone and proved it with a few fisticuffs. He gave as good as he got.

Roferr
01-17-2007, 07:50 PM
Roferr,

I agree that the Pacers probably still need to make a move for another wing player. I think that might still be more important (and easier) that attempting to upgrade at PG.

Possibly.

Unless you throw JO's name in the hat. Just a little food for thought.

ChicagoJ
01-17-2007, 07:53 PM
Possibly.

Unless you throw JO's name in the hat. Just a little food for thought.

I still believe the Pacers are building around him.

But my favorite thing about this trade is that it caught EVERYONE offguard. So who knows what to think.

Major props to Donnie, Larry, and Mullin for keeping this quiet until the last minute. Not even a peep from Donnie's high school pal, Vecsey.

#31
01-17-2007, 07:54 PM
I dont like this at all.......... how stupid is this? The only player that is a tiny bit good of those 4 is Ike Diogu.

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 07:56 PM
Jay, I'm agreeing with almost everything you are posting - I don't know how to react to this new experience.

But the more I think about the trade the more I like it. If Murphy and Dunleavy get a haircut I might get really excited.

Disclaimer: I always say that I don't really know a player until the become a Pacer. So even though I've seen all three of the Warriors play many times - dozens of times - until I see them in every game I don't really know what they can do.


I just think the Pacers will be a better team and I think Dunleavy is better than most fans realize.

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 07:56 PM
Hey Roferr you know Tony Blair never said whats in your sig. Well he said the top part, not in those exact words, but something like it.

aceace
01-17-2007, 07:58 PM
After thinking about this for a few hours now. It appears that GS was willing to take Saras contract for a TE in order to off set some of Dunleavy and Murphys money. I expect McCloud to be on the inactive list to begin with. We play 11 of 12 at home in February so these guys will or should get adjusted a little more quickly. The Pacers problem was chemistry. Plain and simple. Jax was a cancer like Artest. Sarunas is either on or off... mostly off. Powell is a throw in who never made an impact here. So what did we really give up, Al Harrington who is a power forward. We got a pretty good one in JO so I don't see how this trade could hurt us. If Marquis gets Jaxs minutes and Granger starts playing the 3 like we know he can, this could be a very good trade. If Dunleavy and Murphy don't work out over the next year and '08. We can make another move. I trust DW and LB on this. Sometimes you have addition by subtraction. Ask the Orlando Magic about a guy named Steve Francis.

Mourning
01-17-2007, 08:00 PM
I still believe the Pacers are building around him.

But my favorite thing about this trade is that it caught EVERYONE offguard. So who knows what to think.

Major props to Donnie, Larry, and Mullin for keeping this quiet until the last minute. Not even a peep from Donnie's high school pal, Vecsey.

Completely aggree!

One more thing. People keep mentioning that we might be moving Dunleavy Jr. for backcourt help, but what if it's Ike that's going to be moved?

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

rexnom
01-17-2007, 08:01 PM
Btw, this is totally not basketball related but I can't let it slide...

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in...And how many want out.
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Chirst, 2. The American GI.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom......"
- NEVER UTTERED BY TONY BLAIR

He only said "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in...And how many want out." The other part was tacked on by some unknown email forwarder...

Destined4Greatness
01-17-2007, 08:03 PM
Btw, this is totally not basketball related but I can't let it slide...

"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in...And how many want out.
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Chirst, 2. The American GI.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom......"
- NEVER UTTERED BY TONY BLAIR

He only said "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in...And how many want out." The other part was tacked on by some unknown email forwarder...

A) I already pointed this out
B) Didn't say that first part, its been slightly changed.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 08:15 PM
Completely aggree!

One more thing. People keep mentioning that we might be moving Dunleavy Jr. for backcourt help, but what if it's Ike that's going to be moved?

Regards,

Mourning :cool:The Pacers tried so hard to get Ike for Ron, I think they are very high on Ike. So I doubt they will give him up. They are building for after JO is gone. At least there is some light in the future.

Ike,Shawne,Danny. Not bad.

Kstat
01-17-2007, 08:23 PM
I can officially start feeling good about watching the pacers again. Thank you larry bird.

don't get me wrong, you got raped talent-wise, but in terms of getting legit human beings, you came out waaaaaay ahead.

Congrats to Indy. Diogu is a real sleeper.

You'll hate dunleavy to his core, but you'll love diogu 2-3 years down the road. He's your heir apparent to Jermaine Oneal.

McCloud is a better all-around PG than Saras, IMO. Not quite as good offensively but WAAAAAAY better defensively.

As for Murphy, if you can find a position for him, he'll produce. I'm not sure he's better than forster though. I'd use him as a 6th man in sort of a david lee role. I don't think he'd play well alongside JO. His offensive game is too much like Al Harrington's, but even more perimeter-oriented.

Mourning
01-17-2007, 08:26 PM
The Pacers tried so hard to get Ike for Ron, I think they are very high on Ike. So I doubt they will give him up. They are building for after JO is gone. At least there is some light in the future.

Ike,Shawne,Danny. Not bad.

That's what I am hoping for too, but it seems two of our three best players are going to be Power Forwards for several years unless JO or Ike gets moved either quickly or in the summer of 2007 or 2008. I mean when Ike gets his new contract and fullfills the promise then how can we responsibly pay him when our best player and best paid player also plays the same position?

Which is actually not true, because we have Murphy and Dunleavy now too with their huge salaries which makes this even more complicated.

Again, hope your right it would be almost like a dream if Ike and JO could play together well.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Alpolloloco
01-17-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm not sold on this trade!

I like the players we got, especially Diogu. I'm pretty pleased that we got rid of Jackson, and Harrington indeed was not a good match for JO.

The bad part for me is obvious Sarunas leaving us. I became a poster at the time he signed a contract and I was (and still am) very excited about his play. Unfortunately he didn't got to show his great skills in Indy but I'm certain he will get a better chance in GS. Nellie has coached some fellow country men of Sarunas in the past, and Biedrins is also a Lithuanian.

I will stay a Pacer fan, as I am since the day Rik Smits got drafted, but I will follow GSW more closely to see how my boy Sarunas is doing.

Calgary Jazz
01-17-2007, 08:27 PM
Can't wait to see Saras playing against Pacers and Carlisle and showing what he is capable for. Knowing that Davis is injury prone, and Nelsons son was assistant coach in Lithuanian national team, I can bet Saras will have significant minutes and chance to show his abilities.
Otherwise, horrible trade talent wise for Pacers.

D-BONE
01-17-2007, 08:30 PM
Not really ready to make a final statement on this trade. While Dunleavy has been a major disappointment to this point, here's a couple things that occured to me:

1) If I'm not mistaken we did get three lottery picks (at least 2 for sure-was murphy?) for Jack, Saras, and Al. None of which is THAT big of a loss IMO.

2) I don't know that this move makes us more of an up-tempo team as far as fast breaking or not, but it could help spacing, passing, and motion from a 1/2 court standpoint. JO just got two good shooters to work with in the half court and and two solid rebounders (Diogu at least potentially). So our offense could actually improve, which would be welcomed.

Of course, Dunleavy and Murphy could continue to suck (Murphy more so just this year so far) and not really add much and Diogu could not pan out. Only time will tell, but at least it's something. And maybe more change will be on the way.

Kstat
01-17-2007, 08:31 PM
I agree that saras will make the pacers look bad in golden state. not because he's better than they thought, but because he won't have to bother playing defense under don nelson.

LG33
01-17-2007, 08:38 PM
Maceo must be confused: "Wasn't I brought here to hang out with Sarunas and catch the occasional alley-oop pass? Am I ever going to play again?"

rexnom
01-17-2007, 08:39 PM
I agree that saras will make the pacers look bad in golden state. not because he's better than they thought, but because he won't have to bother playing defense under don nelson.
I think Al and Saras will do well in GS just because of that. No more facade of having to play defense.

On the flipside, I also think these GS guys can be good here with a coach that won't bury them if they can't run 48mins/game. Especially Diogu who is clearly not meant to play Nellieball but is a wicked awesome talent.

Shack80
01-17-2007, 08:44 PM
I will be pretty happy with this trade if we follow it up with a solid shooting gaurd, or a better PG. If tptb don't then I think this trade is pretty meh. Not bad, but it does not look like it makes us better, and is a cap killer.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 08:51 PM
I'm not sold on this trade!

I like the players we got, especially Diogu. I'm pretty pleased that we got rid of Jackson, and Harrington indeed was not a good match for JO.

The bad part for me is obvious Sarunas leaving us. I became a poster at the time he signed a contract and I was (and still am) very excited about his play. Unfortunately he didn't got to show his great skills in Indy but I'm certain he will get a better chance in GS. Nellie has coached some fellow country men of Sarunas in the past, and Biedrins is also a Lithuanian.

I will stay a Pacer fan, as I am since the day Rik Smits got drafted, but I will follow GSW more closely to see how my boy Sarunas is doing.The only time we will see you post here is when Sarunas has a good game and you come to gloat.

Putnam
01-17-2007, 09:03 PM
I just think the Pacers will be a better team and I think Dunleavy is better than most fans realize.

Good enough for me. You guys know the players better than I do.

All I know is, tomorrow during lunch I'm walking to Conseco and buying a pair of tickets to the Miami and Boston games.

Los Angeles
01-17-2007, 09:12 PM
While I don't have much to add analysis-wise, I might as well spout off my first impressions in this thread so that someone can bump it later to rub it in my face. ;)

I like this trade very much.

I'm thrilled to pieces. I think we still have a certain obvious problem to take care of (His name starts with the letter Tinsley). The contract thing is a non-issue in my book. The pacers have miracled themselves out of a few bad deals, and the only contract I'm all that worried about is JO's.

The idea of Dunleavy and Murphy being soft is a little funny to me. They aren't soft, they just get worn out. I think they will do well.

Love the trade, can't wait to watch more basketball.

BoomBaby31
01-17-2007, 09:27 PM
AHHHHHHHHHHHH hahahahahahaahahahahah, I told you guys Harrington would be traded by All-Star break. I've been looking for about 20 minutes for those old discussions about the Harrington transaction.

Anyway, I'M VERY HAPPY WITH THIS TRADE. Bravo' to the front office, I'm glad the Pacers didn't let me down.

NorCal_Pacerfan
01-17-2007, 09:28 PM
I wash shocked to see pacers.com today. Boom goes the dynamite. LOL.

I'm bummed to see Al go so fast. I agree it was time to move Jax. As for SJ, we wasn't living up to his Euro Legendary status, so I guess Bird had to eat crow and send him packing. I'm more bummed about taking on both Troy M and Dunleavy. One I could deal with I guess, but BOTH? Ack. I hope Diogu can fit in here.

As for the team chemistry this season, I haven't been able to see much of them. Interestingly enough, the last game I saw was Pacers vs. Warrriors.

Still in shock...

joeyd
01-17-2007, 09:53 PM
Apparently I am the only one, or am just one of a small minority, that liked Jackson. Yes, he made some boneheaded moves on and off the court, but the guy was a gamer, at least in the games I've seen him play in, and there have been many.

I'll also miss Al. He hasn't reached his full potential even yet, I believe. The other guys I won't miss.

Remember this, though. Harrington and Jax were on the All-star ballot. Murphy is the only Golden State player that we got who is also on the ballot. Granted that we are trading for potential as well, but this trade does not seem fair to me. Hopefully time will prove me wrong.

Unclebuck
01-17-2007, 10:01 PM
I agree that saras will make the pacers look bad in golden state. not because he's better than they thought, but because he won't have to bother playing defense under don nelson.

That was funny. At first I figured you were losing your mind, but I kept reading.


When we play G. State I won't be worried about Saras in fact I pray he plays a lot. Anyone but Baron and Ellis, Nellie please play Saras a ton of minutes

Anthem
01-17-2007, 10:02 PM
Harrington and Jax were on the All-star ballot. Murphy is the only Golden State player that we got who is also on the ballot.
This is something I'm REALLY not worried about. No offense or anything, but that thought hasn't crossed my mind.

Jack and Harrington would never be All-Stars, but they never realized that. I'd rather they figure it out somewhere else.

sportsmusicxboxpacer
01-17-2007, 10:11 PM
trade good n bad here i go

The Bad first if i may

three point shooting?

contracts?

too many big man?


The Good


inside froce

better IQ players

chemisty gets better?!?

Anthem
01-17-2007, 10:17 PM
When we play G. State I won't be worried about Saras in fact I pray he plays a lot. Anyone but Baron and Ellis, Nellie please play Saras a ton of minutes
I think a lot of teams will be saying that.

Jermaniac
01-17-2007, 10:21 PM
DEAR Nellie PLEASE put Sarunas on Mel Mel. When we play them, PLEASE. I want to see Tins PUNISH him, just kill him on that floor, and he will.

Kegboy
01-17-2007, 10:28 PM
DEAR Nellie PLEASE put Sarunas on Mel Mel. When we play them, PLEASE. I want to see Tins PUNISH him, just kill him on that floor, and he will.

February 5th at Conseco. We've already played out there, so you're out of luck, I'm sorry to say.

In the interest of being polite, I'll say that matchup would be quite interesting.

Millerartest
01-17-2007, 10:31 PM
It's been a couple years since I posted, but I wanted to add something since I live in the Bay Area and have caught some Warriors games here and there over the years.

Troy Murphy - I like this guy a lot and always have. He's a good rebounder and a good shooter for a big man who would be a wonderful compliment to JO. He's fairly tough and gives his all. He's kind of like a more consistent version of Croshere except he's bigger. Murphy is around his prime years and will be a wonderful role player who is more than capable of starting. Like Dunleavy, it's not wise to leave him open for a double team. With great players around him in a half court game he could shine.

Mike Dunleavy - I never liked him from the beginning but have grown to appreciate what he brings to the team, and that is hustle, surprise plays and deadly shooting when he is on. Dunleavy has not yet reached his potential as a player, and I suspect that Bird has an interest in helping him develop. Wonderful player coming off the bench because he has the capacity to change the flow of a game.

I have read the board from time to time and completely understand the gripes about the route that this Pacer team has taken from time to time. If anything, management responded to the gripes and brought in role players (Dunleavy and Murphy) who will not bring inflated NBA egos with them. The problem I think is that the Pacers just don't have enough great players to compliment them.

Also, I know virtually nothing about this young guy that everyone is hype on. I think I only saw him in one stretch during a game this year. I hope it works out, but if the Pacers are any indication, it's not wise to put too much stock in young and unproven talent (remember when Bender and co. were the envy of the NBA???)

Funny thing is that the East is so awful the Pacers probably couldn't enter the Oden/Durant sweepstakes no matter how hard they try. Unless they have the guts to make another major move. (And bring in a decent shooting guard along with it.)

And thanks for all the updates folks, I always go here when I want to find out what's going on with the Pacers.

Arcadian
01-17-2007, 10:58 PM
I don't really like the contracts but I'm not going to worry about that now.

The players we traded I don't really miss. I like Al but he didn't add that much here. I'm excited that we have a ball handler like Dunleavy. to beat the best teams in the East we need front court depth. I think we've become a better flowing team with players who aren't as dependent on playing one on one as Jackson and Al are.

But mostly I think we traded players that we knew what we had. They aren't going to suddenly become All-stars. In return we got Ike, a player who may. Whether he does or doesn't, I like the risk.

Los Angeles
01-17-2007, 10:59 PM
Nice Report, Millerartest! And welcome back!

Can I recommend a user name change?

wintermute
01-17-2007, 11:42 PM
my take has been pretty much covered by everyone else, but here it is anyway -

my first reaction was, that's a hell of a lot to pay for ike diogu, and i mean it literally. that's like $30M more in salaries through 2011. but what the heck, the simons are footing the bill anyway.

talentwise, murphy/dunleavy is a downgrade from harrington/jackson, but perhaps they will fit the team better. both guys are overpaid backups but on the other hand harrington and jackson are the most expendable guys among the starters. in fact, troy could even start for us, such is the dearth of good big men on the pacers and the nba in general.

dunleavy though is redundant. either he or shawne should be going out in a trade for a guard, imo. and i definitely prefer dunleavy being traded rather than shawne.

long term, one of either dunleavy or murphy MUST be moved by 2009, when danny and ike are due for extensions.

bottomline, we got a new core guy (ike diogu) without giving up any of our other core guys (j.o., danny, even shawne). the contracts inflicted on us is just the price we had to pay

GetMoney
01-17-2007, 11:51 PM
man... i'mma just let it play out

they coulda kept mcleod tho... and murphy is a bum

shoulda got rid of carlisle instead

Pacerized
01-18-2007, 12:01 AM
I think I feel the same as most everyone in that this was a big surprise to me.
At first I thought what a great trade, but then I thought of the salary implications. If we can ignore the salaries, or move someone later I still think it's a good trade. I don't think Dunleavy is that much of a downgrade from Jax, but our weakest spot was at the 2, and it may have gotten a little weaker. We can't complain about lack of big men, but now we're a little log jammed at the 4/5. J.O. will always play the lions share which doesn't leave a lot for Foster, Murphy, and Ike. Someone won't get 20 min. out of that group, and of them I see Murphy getting less playing time. Shawne, and Orion will pick up a few minutes from this, and I'd say they can handle that. I disagree that both Dunleavy, and Murphy are tradable. Murphy could start on a lot of teams, and centers are always overpriced. We're just lucky to have Foster for what we pay him.
I hope we use the trade exception in a package to go after a better 2.

JayRedd
01-18-2007, 12:22 AM
Peter Vecsey just gave his trade analysis on NBATV. No link or nothing, but here's a synopsis:

* Said the trade was mainly about fitting in with Nellie's system for GState

* Said the trade was in large part about dumping Jackson for Indy. He was surprised that Bird and Walsh would go to such lengths as taking on over $30 million in salary, and he was surprised the GState could get so much back after Nelson basically devalued his own players by riding them about defense and not giving them minutes. But Bird and Walsh were dead set on getting the fan appeal back.

* Said that he talked to Larry and that both Bird and Walsh sat down with JO about the trade before it happened. Wasn't clear if this meeting was just to inform JO so he didn't hear it on Sportscenter or whether they were asking for his input/approval. But they did meet beforehand according to Vecsey.

* Claimed that Dunleavy's rep for shying away from defending people might be unfair. And added the fact that Dunleavy was #5 in the entire NBA last year in charges taken. Given that, I will fully retract my "soft" comment from earlier until further viewing.

* Said that Troy should complement JO very well with his range and that he has no doubt Murphy will again average a double-double in the East.

* Said that Dunleavy should stop wearing his sister's hair accessories. (Okay, Vecsey didn't actually say that...but that does not make it untrue.)


That is all I remember. He talked for a solid 5-7 minutes on the deal though and they showed some of Bird/Walsh's comments from the press conference. A good analysis overall from Peter I thought. And I'm sure NBATV will run it 48 times between now and tomorrow morning if you missed it.

joeyd
01-18-2007, 12:23 AM
This is something I'm REALLY not worried about. No offense or anything, but that thought hasn't crossed my mind.

Jack and Harrington would never be All-Stars, but they never realized that. I'd rather they figure it out somewhere else.

No offense taken. It's just that some folks obviously thought highly enough of Jax and Harrington to get them on the ballot in the first place. The Pacers themselves were also selling them with their promos for fans to earn autographs of the players by filling out 100 All-star ballots.

Unclebuck
01-18-2007, 12:26 AM
Thanks JayRedd - I was so mad I missed the begining of when Vescey was on. Most of you know I really respect Vescey

Big Smooth
01-18-2007, 12:31 AM
My first reaction hearing of this trade on the way home from work today was positive. I think Dunleavy & Murphy will do well here. And I'm interested to see more of Diogu, I've been intrigued by him since his days at Arizona State.

Anthem
01-18-2007, 12:37 AM
* Said that Dunleavy should stop wearing his sister's hair accessories. (Okay, Vecsey didn't actually say that...but that does not make it untrue.)
Gag, I'd forgotten that. Hopefully he shaves his head or something.

Accurate synopsis by Vescey, though.

RamBo_Lamar
01-18-2007, 12:41 AM
This is wonderful news!!! Hate to see Al go again though, especially after
showing what a nice 3 point shot he'd developed. But if that's the price to
pay to get out from under SJax's thumb, then fantastic! SJax could have
had us bent over a barrel for years to come if nobody was willing to take
him off of our hands - THANK YOU Golden State!

And the way it went down...just kind of came out of nowhere unexpectedly.
Seems TPTB got tired of everyone always trying to negotiate and close
deals for them, so didn't let a thing leak out about this trade. Very cloak &
dagger like - nicely done too btw.

This is going to help our chemistry and morale immensely. Great trade for the
Pacers, and I now have alot more of that "dawn of a new era" feeling then
at the beginning of the season. Now things are going to get really
interesting again.

Way To Go Pacers!!!
:fireworks :fireworks :fireworks :fireworks :fireworks

PS: now if we could only trade away all the SJax >groupies< occupying
my "posters to be ignored" list too... :D

ChicagoJ
01-18-2007, 01:21 AM
February 5th at Conseco. We've already played out there, so you're out of luck, I'm sorry to say.

In the interest of being polite, I'll say that matchup would be quite interesting.

Like watching a train wreck?

Anthem
01-18-2007, 01:25 AM
Like watching a train wreck?
But without the lingering feelings of guilt!

tora tora
01-18-2007, 01:49 AM
Dumb trade. Harrington -could have- coexsited with JO if Carlisle wasn't coaching. But I guess management is out to please Coach Carlisle and cater to his neeeeeds. Mike Dunleavy? Oh man.... Keith McLeod is underrated, I'd like to see him team up with Marshall in the backcourt for a defensive "lockdown" lineup. Mike Dunleavy? Oh man.......

Jose Slaughter
01-18-2007, 02:26 AM
This is great news.

I had to wait til the kid was in bed to start reading all this, but I think this is a great trade.

Harrington wasn't fitting in & TPTB didn't wait as long as they have in the past in correcting the error of bringing hin here in the first place.

Jackson is gone!

Man I've waited sooooooooo long to type that it isn't even funny.

I've been so turned off by him still being in a Pacer uniform that I've had a hard time bringing myself to watch a game. I still have my doubts about Bird & Walsh but they arn't as dark as they were at this time yesterday.

Diogu is going to be something special. I can't wait for him to get some regular minutes.

Jackson is gone! -- felt just as good the 2nd time.

The key to the whole trade is how Dunleavy & Murphy will fit in with O'Neal. Each of them brings skills that will help O'Neal be more effective. Murphy's banging & range will take some heat off JO. Dunleavy has very good court vision & passing skills & I suspect, much like Peja did when he got here, his shooting percentage will go up.

It'll be nice starting Daniels at the 2 & hopefully Marshall can get some minutes off the bench.

I know were still saddled with Tinsley but with Sarunas out of the picture I'd like to see Greene get a greater chance to develope.

Yes, this was a very good deal. Don't focus on the contracts, focus on how the new guys blend in with the guys we have. If nothing else.............

Jackson is G.O.N.E. !

ChicagoJ
01-18-2007, 02:47 AM
Peter Vecsey just gave his trade analysis on NBATV. No link or nothing, but here's a synopsis:

* Said the trade was mainly about fitting in with Nellie's system for GState

* Said the trade was in large part about dumping Jackson for Indy. He was surprised that Bird and Walsh would go to such lengths as taking on over $30 million in salary, and he was surprised the GState could get so much back after Nelson basically devalued his own players by riding them about defense and not giving them minutes. But Bird and Walsh were dead set on getting the fan appeal back.

* Said that he talked to Larry and that both Bird and Walsh sat down with JO about the trade before it happened. Wasn't clear if this meeting was just to inform JO so he didn't hear it on Sportscenter or whether they were asking for his input/approval. But they did meet beforehand according to Vecsey.

* Claimed that Dunleavy's rep for shying away from defending people might be unfair. And added the fact that Dunleavy was #5 in the entire NBA last year in charges taken. Given that, I will fully retract my "soft" comment from earlier until further viewing.

* Said that Troy should complement JO very well with his range and that he has no doubt Murphy will again average a double-double in the East.

* Said that Dunleavy should stop wearing his sister's hair accessories. (Okay, Vecsey didn't actually say that...but that does not make it untrue.)


That is all I remember. He talked for a solid 5-7 minutes on the deal though and they showed some of Bird/Walsh's comments from the press conference. A good analysis overall from Peter I thought. And I'm sure NBATV will run it 48 times between now and tomorrow morning if you missed it.

Man.... you left out the big bomb Vecsey dropped...

Says Rick is "still in a little bit of trouble, even though he just signed an extension. I think the franchise feels that there is no way they can really make that kind of decision on their coach when they still have Jackson who did not, you know, adhere to Carlisle's coaching and a lot of other things, so he had to go."

ssmall
01-18-2007, 04:29 AM
I'm not sold on this trade!

I like the players we got, especially Diogu. I'm pretty pleased that we got rid of Jackson, and Harrington indeed was not a good match for JO.

The bad part for me is obvious Sarunas leaving us. I became a poster at the time he signed a contract and I was (and still am) very excited about his play. Unfortunately he didn't got to show his great skills in Indy but I'm certain he will get a better chance in GS. Nellie has coached some fellow country men of Sarunas in the past, and Biedrins is also a Lithuanian.

I will stay a Pacer fan, as I am since the day Rik Smits got drafted, but I will follow GSW more closely to see how my boy Sarunas is doing.

not really, he is Latvian.

Flax
01-18-2007, 05:12 AM
This is interesting situation. Both camps of fans, GSW and Pacers are predominantly enthusiastic about the deal. Pacerland enjoys getting rid off Jackson and underachieving Harrington and Sarunas, while GSW fans praise Mullin for dumping Murphey and Dunlevy.

There is little talk about benefits, rather general enthusiasm about giving up negatives. Swap of "loser for loser" or what? :D

golstarr99
01-18-2007, 05:29 AM
I can officially start feeling good about watching the pacers again. Thank you larry bird.

don't get me wrong, you got raped talent-wise, but in terms of getting legit human beings, you came out waaaaaay ahead.

Congrats to Indy. Diogu is a real sleeper.

You'll hate dunleavy to his core, but you'll love diogu 2-3 years down the road. He's your heir apparent to Jermaine Oneal.

McCloud is a better all-around PG than Saras, IMO. Not quite as good offensively but WAAAAAAY better defensively.

As for Murphy, if you can find a position for him, he'll produce. I'm not sure he's better than forster though. I'd use him as a 6th man in sort of a david lee role. I don't think he'd play well alongside JO. His offensive game is too much like Al Harrington's, but even more perimeter-oriented.

A Piston fan talking about "being a good human being"? Are you serious? Do you know Jack or Harrington in real life? THey are much better human beings than Rasheed Junkie Wallace or Ben Junkie Wallace. Give me a break! THis has to go back by blaming Jackson for the brawl when it was the Detroit fans and Detroit players who were the main instigators...Mr. Sour Apples...

Stephen and Al will surely be missed. Pacers are lottery bound instead of being a team that could have snuck up and made the E.C. Finals...truly how sad and idiotic.

Robertmto
01-18-2007, 05:32 AM
A Piston fan talking about "being a good human being"? Are you serious? Do you know Jack or Harrington in real life? THey are much better human beings than Rasheed Junkie Wallace or Ben Junkie Wallace. Give me a break! THis has to go back by blaming Jackson for the brawl when it was the Detroit fans and Detroit players who were the main instigators...Mr. Sour Apples...

You're new I see. FYI - that isn't really tolerated here.

golstarr99
01-18-2007, 05:40 AM
You're new I see. FYI - that isn't really tolerated here.

But it is tolerated that a Piston fan comes on here and says "Jackson is not a good human being". ?

Robertmto
01-18-2007, 05:43 AM
But it is tolerated that a Piston fan comes on here and says "Jackson is not a good human being". ?

Its not really my place to say any thing further. I was just tryin to throw you a heads up.

EDIT: He never said Jackson.

Seed
01-18-2007, 06:46 AM
This is interesting situation. Both camps of fans, GSW and Pacers are predominantly enthusiastic about the deal. Pacerland enjoys getting rid off Jackson and underachieving Harrington and Sarunas, while GSW fans praise Mullin for dumping Murphey and Dunlevy.

There is little talk about benefits, rather general enthusiasm about giving up negatives. Swap of "loser for loser" or what? :D

Exaclty. When each side thinks it screwed the other one, there's always the possibility that both turn out to be right..

:)

TRich
01-18-2007, 07:03 AM
LOVE this trade. Not just because of who is leaving, but what we are getting back. I like Dunleavy & Murphy, they will definitely help the flow & movement at the offensive end. I trust in Rick's tactics & and JO's cover D to hide their defensive deficiencies.

But obviously the biggest plus is Ike. The prospect of a starting frontcourt or the next 5-10 years of Granger, Ike & JO is very exciting. If Ike can develop a decent jumpshot then the frontline will close to unstoppable at both ends of the floor.

I am just waiting for the next move now. I fully expect one of Harrison, Foster or Dunleavy to be moved for a swingman. Someone like Mike Miller, Mo Pete or Quentin Richardson would be a perfect match for this team.

speakout4
01-18-2007, 08:00 AM
Dunleavy should be bought out for 4-5 M/year so he can join his father and make some of it up on the other end with a small contract. His contract was a huge mistake and we could have just as easily done the same with Jax's contract.

beast23
01-18-2007, 08:43 AM
Dunleavy should be bought out for 4-5 M/year so he can join his father and make some of it up on the other end with a small contract. His contract was a huge mistake and we could have just as easily done the same with Jax's contract.Don't forget one thing... to buy out a contract, it takes two willing participants.

If the Dunleavys want to be together that bad, don't you think that the Pacers now hold ALL the power to make that happen?

That means that Dun Sr would have to negotiate with the Pacers, not the other way around. Since we hold that power and control the bargaining chip, why would we want to buy out Dun Jr if we might be able to get a good player in return to make that trade happen?

And that assumes that we would have any desire to trade Dun Jr to begin with. Personally, I think he will fit into our plans much better than you are giving him credit for.

Pacers
01-18-2007, 11:44 AM
The Pacers are making it very hard on me. I just moved to Dallas 5 months ago and I'm trying to stay on as a Pacers fan, and not sway to the Mavs, but I cannot understand this move.....AT ALL.

gph
01-18-2007, 11:51 AM
I said it before, i say it again....

I love this trade.

If we can flip dunleavy for maggette, as being pitched in the Akron Beacon Journal today, this trade is gold. Murphy is a big improvement WITH OUR TEAM than Al was. I loved Al, but he didn't fit with JO. Murphy can and will.

Ike in the background, good 3rd point in Mcleod, and possibly Maggette would be a killer deal.

GetMoney
01-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Maggette would be a steal for us and i'd have faith in the front office again after that... McLeod is useless tho

PaceBalls
01-18-2007, 07:27 PM
It's good the TPTB have the courage to make a move like this. I applaud them for that. 2 starters and our back up PG. It shows me that they aren't content just being mediocre with a playoff bid.

As for the actual trade.. Losing Jackson really hurts, more than Al. Everyone hates him because of his percieved attitude and off court troubles, but he was the "warrior" on this team. I loved his toughness here, he was our ironman.. and he was our best perimiter defender. I thought he had been having his best season yet, playing the best of his carreer. He will be sorely missed, not by the fans, but by Rick and the team as a whole.

I like Al, but shooting threes isn't his game and he wants post plays called for him. I could tell he wasn't happy. Hope he digs Cali. Hope they start him.

Saras proved to the world he can play in the nba and be a good 3rd string PG. Good luck to him, and I hope we see some of our younger PGs step up, Orion and this new fella McCloud.

So that being said I don't really know much about the guys we are getting. Everyone's high on this Ike fella but I never got the chance to see him or the others play but twice a year when they played the pacers. Supposedly this Dunleavy kid has a Larry Bird like basketball IQ. Maybe that will work out good.
I can't wait to see the new team play and see how they come together.

avoidingtheclowns
01-18-2007, 09:10 PM
didn't want to start a new thread, and hadn't seen this mentioned... here is a link to David Aldridge's analysis of the trade.

http://www.nba.com/news/tradereax_070117.html

Unclebuck
04-04-2007, 02:39 PM
I know many of you don't like when I or others bump threads, but I think it is a good time to bump this thread, just to see who thought what at the time

Jose Slaughter
04-04-2007, 02:45 PM
I was in favor of the deal on post 185, still am.

Unclebuck
04-04-2007, 02:50 PM
I just read the whole thread and the interesting thing is I don't know of anyone who really changed their opinion. Those who didn't like it at first still don't. Those that did like it, still do. Those who were in the middle, I don't know where they are.

pwee31
04-04-2007, 02:51 PM
I wasn't too bad. I was optimsitic, but I didn't jump to conclusions

ajbry
04-04-2007, 02:56 PM
I was irate and questioning how the hell we could make such an awful trade. I still am.

I do enjoy seeing the replies about whether or not Jack would be a starter in GS, people trying to water down his game. That's definitely the comic relief in this thread.

MagicRat
04-04-2007, 02:59 PM
I stand by my post also.....

Los Angeles
04-04-2007, 03:03 PM
While I don't have much to add analysis-wise, I might as well spout off my first impressions in this thread so that someone can bump it later to rub it in my face. ;)

I like this trade very much.

I'm thrilled to pieces. I think we still have a certain obvious problem to take care of (His name starts with the letter Tinsley). The contract thing is a non-issue in my book. The pacers have miracled themselves out of a few bad deals, and the only contract I'm all that worried about is JO's.

The idea of Dunleavy and Murphy being soft is a little funny to me. They aren't soft, they just get worn out. I think they will do well.

Love the trade, can't wait to watch more basketball.

This guy is a genius.

Kegboy
04-04-2007, 03:05 PM
I stand by my post also.....

:console:

JB's Breakout Year
04-04-2007, 03:09 PM
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Hallelujah!!!!!!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!
Hallelujah!!!!!!

Ike has been a pleasant surprise, too.

Anthem
04-04-2007, 03:28 PM
My take then was "this trade is potentially ok, but we need an immediate move to balance out the talent level."

I'm sticking to my guns.

Shade
04-04-2007, 04:19 PM
Wow, the Black Hole Duo just became the Black Hole Trio in GS (with Baron). :laugh:

The only player I'm shocked we're sending out is Al. He was a favorite of casual fans. I'm sure he's got to be shocked about this as well.

I HATE Murphy's and Dunleavy's contracts. HORRIBLE.

And I'm surprised we got Diogu without sending Harrison out in the deal.

I'll have to think about this a bit. At first glacnce, I don't really like, though I'm ECSTATIC that Jack is gone! I'm just really concerned about those massive contracts.

I feel pretty much the same way today.

FlavaDave
04-04-2007, 04:26 PM
At first, I thought this game was about dumping Jackson and gaing Ike Diogu. Still do.

I am surprised that we have played so poorly, but I was throwing this season away anyway.

Gyron
04-04-2007, 04:29 PM
Look I didn't post when the trade happened....So you still don't know my position!!!!

Seriously though, I know we took some hits to do so, but it was a necessary trade to dump Jackson.

Seed
04-04-2007, 04:56 PM
Exaclty. When each side thinks it screwed the other one, there's always the possibility that both turn out to be right..

:)

I still think so.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2007, 05:19 PM
I saw the Pacers listed and that Saras and Powell were thrown in too and I thought "boy, we must have pulled in some serious talent to give up that much".

Nope. Team is slower and in a worse contract situation. I agree that Al had been problematic with his recent play, but Jack seemed to be doing well enough.

And don't give me that "high IQ players" crap. You've got a high IQ for the game, maybe try using it to put up BETTER RESULTS. WTF good is talent, IQ or anything if it doesn't produce something.

There are a lot of versions of this I could have liked, I'm not such a Jackson fan that I don't appreciate the reasons to move him, but GD at least get something in return besides a couple of slow, spot up shooting types with perhaps "limited" defensive ability.


I just read the whole thread and the interesting thing is I don't know of anyone who really changed their opinion. Those who didn't like it at first still don't. Those that did like it, still do. Those who were in the middle, I don't know where they are.
I still don't obviously. I wonder why?????

oh yeah, 12-23, no playoffs, maybe the head coach fired for it, maybe JO or Tinsley or both gone, all of which ensure even more losing.

Ladies and Gentleman, YOUR Indiana Hawks.


I'm sorry Buck, but don't the people that didn't like the trade have scoreboard now. Naptown (not me, just nap) said "give it 25 games" because of chemistry issues. After 25 games we are getting worse results than ever.

The team is worse than the 97 team that missed the playoffs. The team is worse than the Indy 500s of Bob Hill (who had a ton of talent). This team just lost Stipanovich to injury and are throwing the ball into Herb, that's how bad it's been since the trade (forget opinion, let the scoreboard do the talking).


And I'm one of the people actually willing to let the entire situation return to see what they can do with a training camp/offseason, so I'm not pulling for tank or blowing it up. Yet still even I see the reality of the situation, that the team probably doesn't have anywhere near the talent to win.

You bring in guys that are leading a team to a sub-500 record what do you expect them to do here?


If you think Rick is currently the problem then why not fire him and keep Jack/Al/Saras for the new coach to work with...unless you don't truly think RC was the issue (which means he still isn't)?


Looking back at the comments the most telling one was "TPTB saw Kevin Durant play and decided to tank so they would have a shot to get him". The coach and players are trying, but what about management?


I do enjoy seeing the replies about whether or not Jack would be a starter in GS, people trying to water down his game. That's definitely the comic relief in this thread.
Yep. Apparently we were crazy to think Jackson would start over Ellis. To me that shows the massive disconnect between Pacers fans and what NBA coaches and GMs think about the talent here, and of course Flip just backed up the view that Nelson has been proving with actions.

Unclebuck
04-04-2007, 05:24 PM
If I were to list the reasons for the Pacers terrible record since the all star break - the trade would make the list but it wouldn't be at the top of the list. I think if the trade hadn't occurred, the Pacers would still be crashing right now - just not quite as bad

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2007, 05:25 PM
Troy - I didn't want Troy when this team still had Croshere. I think he's a fine "fit" with this team. Since he's more physical and rugged than Foster, I like the flexibility Rick now has with those guys.
Holy miscues does this look painfully wrong. Dude got owned on the glass by Detroit last night. His poor rebounding in the 3rd was a big part of the game getting away from them.

They put Foster on Shaq and beat Miami for chrissake. But you like how tough Murphy is. Yeesh.

Naptown_Seth
04-04-2007, 05:33 PM
If I were to list the reasons for the Pacers terrible record since the all star break - the trade would make the list but it wouldn't be at the top of the list. I think if the trade hadn't occurred, the Pacers would still be crashing right now - just not quite as bad
Here's why I disagree with that. The one possible way the post trade team has won is when Quis played. They've had no other true SG to play, no solid defensive SG, and only Tinsley to really create off the dribble.

All issues solved by having Jack still. Save the Dun passing stuff too, just compare Dun's assists in GS vs Jackson's.

They also have struggled to get consistant outside shooting from anyone. Al is dropping the 3 at a freaking 45% rate still.


That team was a slightly better than .500 team. Right now that might be good enough to catch the Butler-less Wizards in the first round and perhaps get to the 2nd. I like that a lot more than the worst season in almost 20 years.


Let's say that nothing is changes this offseason save a draft pick (assume the get it, still very iffy). You tell me why they will be better next year. I'm not being a tool about this, I'm serious. Like I said, I'm sort of interested in at least seeing what they can do without changes, but I don't really know exactly what they can do to be a better team.

And if you have to make deals to fix the situation couldn't you use the Jackson and Harrington contracts a lot better than the Dun and Murphy deals? No one wants the money/length on either of them. Jack is fair priced and Al is maybe even a bargain.


Stand pat and you are in a better position to deal. This trade only made sense if it A) improved attendence which it failed horribly to do or B) got the team winning more games, another disaster.

People simply hate Jackson so much that they refuse to let the results prove them wrong. No matter what, if it means their dog is killed by a drunk driving Dunleavy and Murph punches their mother in a post strip-club brawl that spills over into a nearby neighborhood, they still will say "at least Jack is gone". To me that's stubborn to the point of stupidity.


I know that I'd be expected to say "you were right" if this team was playing great and Jackson was ruining the Warriors. But that's not what is happening.

Kegboy
04-04-2007, 05:38 PM
My take then was "this trade is potentially ok, but we need an immediate move to balance out the talent level."

I'm sticking to my guns.

Without reading the thread, I do remember a lot of us were convinced other moves would be made before the deadline. Oops.

Arcadian
04-04-2007, 05:42 PM
If we didn't make the trade we would have a better chance to make the playoffs in the East. That still wouldn't have make us a good team.

As long as we are starting Dunleavy at the two we aren't going to be very good. I hope when we made the trade that isn't what we envisioned.

Anthem
04-04-2007, 06:33 PM
As long as we are starting Dunleavy at the two we aren't going to be very good. I hope when we made the trade that isn't what we envisioned.
My thoughts exactly. I've also got two extra QFTs for you from other threads, so I'll just leave them here.

Right on the money today, man.

ajbry
04-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Yep. Apparently we were crazy to think Jackson would start over Ellis. To me that shows the massive disconnect between Pacers fans and what NBA coaches and GMs think about the talent here, and of course Flip just backed up the view that Nelson has been proving with actions.

You are absolutely correct. There are plenty of people whom are not exactly fond of Stephen Jackson and his reputation, but all of those detractors also acknowledge he is a damn good NBA performer. Additionally, as you said, just look at the words given by former teammates and coaches. I'll take Nellie, Flip, Duncan, and Rick's words (just to name a few) any day over a casual fan disenfranchised by the modern-day NBA.

JB's Breakout Year
04-04-2007, 07:27 PM
It's just about the criteria you use to judge the trade.

If you look at the standings now, Golden State has a chance (but just a chance) to make the play-offs, and are showing signs that they're pretty entertaining, if not really all that good.

It's been I don't know how many years since the Warriors have made play-offs (9? 12? A lot). So for them, to even have the chance to make the 8th seed is a big deal for their franchise. Even if JRich, Ellis, and Davis seem more responsible for their run, Al and Jackson have played reasonably well. Hell, I'm even rooting for them now. It's not like we're in direct competition with them...

The Pacers, on the other hand, have been stuck in limbo every season since our Finals trip save one (the infamous 61 win season that gets way too much credit on this board). We needed a significant upgrade at SG before the season, so Jackson needed to go anyway.

How many of the posters here would be thrilled with just making the play-offs? How about even if we made it as high as the 6th seed? Nobody probably. We've been fortunate to have good teams and this one isn't one of those.

So big picture, this was a great trade to me. I couldn't even root for Jackson when he was a Pacer, so I'm glad he's gone. Al, it might have been nice to see what he could have done with a different coach, but he's always going to be a selfish player. Not that that's necessarily bad for a scorer, but it doesn't help much with defense and rebounding.

The four main principles: JO, Carlisle, Jackson, and Harrington-they were a bad mix. That we got a possible replacement for JO in Diogu is a major plus. The salaries we brought on are not that big of a deal when you separate them (Dunleavey and Murphy do not HAVE to be a package deal).

We had to tear it down to start rebuilding. No one said it would feel great losing, but we're in a better position than we were before.

Y2J
04-04-2007, 07:52 PM
Jackson is still a bad player. All we're hearing about his glorious stint in Golden State is nothing more than hyperbolic ranting from fanboys.

He still throws up more bricks than any other shooting guard in the league.
He still is a lousy shooter.
He still literally runs away from rebounds.
He's still a turnover machine.
He's still a team cancer.

He's been ejected twice already while with the Warriors.

And the Warriors are a better team now than before the trade? Then explain this nice little fact...

Pre-Trade: 19-21 (.475)
Post Trade: 16-18 (.470)

Ike is a season way from being by far the best player in this deal and his ability combined with ridding ourselves of the cancer (Jackson) was worth taking on Murphleavys contracts.

rexnom
04-04-2007, 07:58 PM
I was pro-trade. Now I'm anti-trade. This team was looking at being "the team nobody wants to play" in the playoffs, regardless of record. Now? Not so much.

wintermute
04-04-2007, 08:27 PM
my take has been pretty much covered by everyone else, but here it is anyway -

my first reaction was, that's a hell of a lot to pay for ike diogu, and i mean it literally. that's like $30M more in salaries through 2011. but what the heck, the simons are footing the bill anyway.

talentwise, murphy/dunleavy is a downgrade from harrington/jackson, but perhaps they will fit the team better. both guys are overpaid backups but on the other hand harrington and jackson are the most expendable guys among the starters. in fact, troy could even start for us, such is the dearth of good big men on the pacers and the nba in general.

dunleavy though is redundant. either he or shawne should be going out in a trade for a guard, imo. and i definitely prefer dunleavy being traded rather than shawne.

long term, one of either dunleavy or murphy MUST be moved by 2009, when danny and ike are due for extensions.

bottomline, we got a new core guy (ike diogu) without giving up any of our other core guys (j.o., danny, even shawne). the contracts inflicted on us is just the price we had to pay

i think my opinion then was reasonable, and still stand by it.

the only thing i got very wrong was the sjax was expendable part. i thought a quis/rawle rotation would cover jackson's contribution, but quis got his yearly injury and rawle turned out to be worthless.

still in favor because of ike - he really needs to become a starter quality player at least or maybe even star level for this trade to pay off.

Shack80
04-04-2007, 09:24 PM
We sucked before and after the trade. Team needs rebuilt and this will help force the issue. I still like it.

Elgin56
04-04-2007, 09:40 PM
Jackson is still a bad player. All we're hearing about his glorious stint in Golden State is nothing more than hyperbolic ranting from fanboys.

He still throws up more bricks than any other shooting guard in the league.
He still is a lousy shooter.
He still literally runs away from rebounds.
He's still a turnover machine.
He's still a team cancer.

He's been ejected twice already while with the Warriors.

And the Warriors are a better team now than before the trade? Then explain this nice little fact...

Pre-Trade: 19-21 (.475)
Post Trade: 16-18 (.470)

Ike is a season way from being by far the best player in this deal and his ability combined with ridding ourselves of the cancer (Jackson) was worth taking on Murphleavys contracts.

Thanks for saving me the time and effort. Great Post!

Anthem
04-05-2007, 12:03 AM
And the Warriors are a better team now than before the trade? Then explain this nice little fact...

Pre-Trade: 19-21 (.475)
Post Trade: 16-18 (.470)
Interesting... I don't remember the last trade that made both teams WORSE.

Dr. Goldfoot
04-05-2007, 12:12 AM
Technically, they won tonight so now post-trade they are better.

I stand by my original assessment of the trade. Starters for bench players with bad contract's from a bad team====BOO.

DeS
04-05-2007, 10:38 AM
And the Warriors are a better team now than before the trade? Then explain this nice little fact...

Pre-Trade: 19-21 (.475)
Post Trade: 16-18 (.470)


At this point, the pre-trade/post-trade ratio is approximately the same. But you have to take into account that at the begining, the 2 best scorers at GSW were out of the lineup (D. Baron with a surgery and J Richardson with broken arm treatment) for a long time.
Now GSW are playing much better. Since start of the march they have a record of 10:6 (.625).
So, they (GSW) actually got better. From Pacers perspective, I think, this trade is very hard to assess, because it includes so many unknown off-court variables, which fans can only speculate on. I bet, management didn't expected such sequence of loosing. One thing is clear - this team isn't going to win anything and the minor tweaking would not help.

ChicagoPacer
04-05-2007, 11:33 AM
At this point, the pre-trade/post-trade ratio is approximately the same. But you have to take into account that at the begining, the 2 best scorers at GSW were out of the lineup (D. Baron with a surgery and J Richardson with broken arm treatment) for a long time.
Now GSW are playing much better. Since start of the march they have a record of 10:6 (.625).
So, they (GSW) actually got better.

Exactly. Richardson was hurt about the same number of games pre- and post-trade, so his injury effect should be mostly negated. Almost all of Davis' missed games came after the trade, and the Warriors were 4-11 in those games.

Fool
04-05-2007, 11:44 AM
If I were to list the reasons for the Pacers terrible record since the all star break - the trade would make the list but it wouldn't be at the top of the list. I think if the trade hadn't occurred, the Pacers would still be crashing right now - just not quite as bad

I think that's ridiculous. This is the only team Carlisle has ever coached that he will have failed to take to the playoffs. Its almost a natural law that if the guy has any defensive talent at all, he can find a way to win regular season games with it.

I'm happy with my initial accessment (like Dr. Goldfoot). You traded disruptive starters for a mild-mannered but expensive bench.

dfcx26
04-05-2007, 11:54 AM
Looking at the standings, the Warriors seem to have an amazing home record, approaching top 5 in the league. That must be nice for the home fans that go to the games. You have to wonder, if they improve even marginally on the road, how dangerous they could be. I mean, they must have some serious talent and firepower to pull off a 27-11 record at home in the western conference.

Offensively, looking at a couple of recent box scores, it seems like they do a good job of spreading the ball around. Lots of assists, lots of double digit scorers. I don't know, doesn't sound all that bad. If they make the playoffs this year you've got to respect them. The franchise, I don't think, has been in the post-season in a long time. Plus, you have to figure 8th seed in the west is probably the equivalent of 3/4th seed in the east.

Fool
04-05-2007, 01:34 PM
The franchise, I don't think, has been in the post-season in a long time. Plus, you have to figure 8th seed in the west is probably the equivalent of 3/4th seed in the east.

It never works that simply. Their record is better against West teams then East teams. I wouldn't hand them a division championship quite so quickly.

Since86
04-05-2007, 01:58 PM
At this point, the pre-trade/post-trade ratio is approximately the same. But you have to take into account that at the begining, the 2 best scorers at GSW were out of the lineup (D. Baron with a surgery and J Richardson with broken arm treatment) for a long time.
Now GSW are playing much better. Since start of the march they have a record of 10:6 (.625).
So, they (GSW) actually got better. From Pacers perspective, I think, this trade is very hard to assess, because it includes so many unknown off-court variables, which fans can only speculate on. I bet, management didn't expected such sequence of loosing. One thing is clear - this team isn't going to win anything and the minor tweaking would not help.

Two words with regards to the injury discussion.

Marquis Daniels.

NuffSaid
04-05-2007, 05:51 PM
I think the only real way to measure the success of the trade would be to see where both team's stand w/full, healthy rosters.

The Pacers had injured players pre/post trade.

The Warriors had injured players pre/post trade.

Neither are currently in the playoff picture, but both are in the hunt for that elusive 8th seed. By right, the Pacers should be the 6th seed at least had they not gone on that 11 game slide, but even that seeding wouldn't have meant the Pacers got the better end of the deal because they were at the #6 position at the time of the trade anyway. GS, on the other hand, wasn't in the playoff picture then and they aren't now, though IMO their chances of securing a playoff berth is better since the trade than prior to it.

At this point, the only way to know for sure if the trade has helped either team is: 1) see who gets to the post-season; and, 2) see how well either team does, i.e., first-round exit or advance to round 2. At this point I'd say neither team gained anything because the trade hasn't moved either team higher into the standings in their respective division/conference.

Los Angeles
04-05-2007, 07:54 PM
Two words with regards to the injury discussion.

Marquis Daniels.

No ****.

We were doing fine, and eventually could have come together if Quisey could have stayed in. The trade's success was founded on Marquis taking a larger role. I've always believed it, and will continue to believe that.

Hicks
04-05-2007, 08:06 PM
No ****.

We were doing fine, and eventually could have come together if Quisey could have stayed in. The trade's success was founded on Marquis taking a larger role. I've always believed it, and will continue to believe that.

Actually, I totally agree with this. Quis was that important to this post-trade team.

Dez Junuts
04-05-2007, 09:27 PM
Jackson is still a bad player. All we're hearing about his glorious stint in Golden State is nothing more than hyperbolic ranting from fanboys.

He still throws up more bricks than any other shooting guard in the league.
He still is a lousy shooter.
He still literally runs away from rebounds.
He's still a turnover machine.
He's still a team cancer.

He's been ejected twice already while with the Warriors.

And the Warriors are a better team now than before the trade? Then explain this nice little fact...

Pre-Trade: 19-21 (.475)
Post Trade: 16-18 (.470)

Ike is a season way from being by far the best player in this deal and his ability combined with ridding ourselves of the cancer (Jackson) was worth taking on Murphleavys contracts.


Ahh.. valid points!

However, you neglected the fact that Baron had surgery POST trade. SURGERY.

And I know Jackson has been ejected twice, but Baron has been SUSPENDED TWICE, as well as ejected in the first quarter this past Sunday.

Jackson still takes some bad shots, but he makes the big ones, and more importantly, he plays solid D.

SycamoreKen
04-05-2007, 10:33 PM
Before the trade the team was embarassing for what was happening off the court thanks to Jackson and Co. He is a good guy and a good player, but he just makes some dumb decisions. After the trade the team is embarassing because they are not playing very well, horribly actually.

I'll take the second situation any day. Losing isn't going to lose my loyalty, heck I'm a Cubs fan. Having players repeatedly do dumb things that bring negativity to the team will cause me to put the shirt in the closet and not wear it.

Dez Junuts
04-06-2007, 01:01 AM
Neither are currently in the playoff picture, but both are in the hunt for that elusive 8th seed. By right, the Pacers should be the 6th seed at least had they not gone on that 11 game slide, but even that seeding wouldn't have meant the Pacers got the better end of the deal because they were at the #6 position at the time of the trade anyway.

GS, on the other hand, wasn't in the playoff picture then and they aren't now, though IMO their chances of securing a playoff berth is better since the trade than prior to it.

Wins over Phx and Hou (where they hold Yao to 4 FGA), I don't see how you can say they're not in the playoff picture.

Indy is definitely out if there is no Jermaine.



Before the trade the team was embarassing for what was happening off the court thanks to Jackson and Co.

http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/tnt/nbalife/nba_life_040307.asx

Baron is a lot like Jackson (they're both asses!!) I'm waiting to see Jackson do one of these.

Pretty funny; at least it'll give a ya look at Oakland

DeS
04-06-2007, 09:44 AM
Two words with regards to the injury discussion.

Marquis Daniels.

But... Quis isn't on the Baron level yet. He's basicly a role player on a good team. Barons production is somewhat similar to JO. Add leadership and consider he is playing PG position (which usually is regarded as the most important position). This is why Baron made such an impact on his team after he returned from surgery.
I doubt that Quis is an impact player. One of the reasons, the team was playing well, was an easy schedule just after the trade. Imho, as much as he could help team to win several more games, he isn't an answer to Pacers problems.
Actually i agree with someone who said that we should wait till the end of regular season. Remaining games will show which team has stronger character.

Dez Junuts
04-10-2007, 02:42 AM
Not sure if anyone saw highlights from tonite, but damm!

GSW loses in Utah by 4.

Utah comes to GSW and gets blown out by 24 after 3rd quarter garbage time.

Jax shoots 63% FG, 28 points, 7 rbds, 5 asts, 2 stl, 2 TO

Harrington blows a few layups and assists and still gets

60% FG, 15 points, 11 rbds, 2 asts, 0 TO's 1 Blk all while guarding Boozer and Okur

Dez Junuts
04-20-2007, 01:30 AM
I think the only real way to measure the success of the trade would be to see where both team's stand w/full, healthy rosters.

The Pacers had injured players pre/post trade.

The Warriors had injured players pre/post trade.

Neither are currently in the playoff picture, but both are in the hunt for that elusive 8th seed. By right, the Pacers should be the 6th seed at least had they not gone on that 11 game slide, but even that seeding wouldn't have meant the Pacers got the better end of the deal because they were at the #6 position at the time of the trade anyway. GS, on the other hand, wasn't in the playoff picture then and they aren't now, though IMO their chances of securing a playoff berth is better since the trade than prior to it.

At this point, the only way to know for sure if the trade has helped either team is: 1) see who gets to the post-season; and, 2) see how well either team does, i.e., first-round exit or advance to round 2. At this point I'd say neither team gained anything because the trade hasn't moved either team higher into the standings in their respective division/conference.

With a SOS at the end of the season they came through, going 16-5 in their final games (9-1 in their last stretch). I would say with Jackson shooting over 44% in April but only 3 times @ 19 ppg, while Harrington shot 45.6% for the month @ 16 ppg they definitely came thru.

I heard J.O. was going to be going to the Warrior-Mav series? Any confirmation about this?

Jermaniac
04-20-2007, 01:50 AM
Interesting... I don't remember the last trade that made both teams WORSE.This trade did not make both teams worse. The Warriors had their 2 best players hurt for a few weeks after the trade happened. After they got everything settled they finished the season on a 16-5 run. And their first playoff birth in a decade.

Edit - Well I just seen when you made this post, but still.