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Putnam
01-11-2007, 11:06 AM
The Tuesday night game against Atlanta had announced attendance of only 13,500 people. That was more than showed up in Philly the same night to watch the 76ers and Pistons, but it is darned low. The Pacers need something close to 17,000 per game to make a profit, so any game that falls below that is a problem for PS&E and for all of us.

Here's a poll to ask Pacers Digest members what they see as the main reasons for non-attendance.

You can click as many answers as apply. as usual, comments and clarifications are welcome. Please talk about your personal reasons only. If you want to speculate on why other people don't attend, please start another thread.

Skaut_Ech
01-11-2007, 11:20 AM
You left out an option:

*If Tinsley and Jackson were traded.

I went to the first couple of games, but I found I can't stand watching Jackson have his little tirades towards the refs as the ref of the team runs down the floor. As long as this team is lead by those knuckleheads, I'm satying home and voting with my wallet. It's the only way I can make management know that I don't like what I see. As long as people fill the seats, no matter what, TPTB have just that much more reason to stay the course. I mean, they're still making their money, right?

Trade those guys and I'm back in a heartbeat.

D23
01-11-2007, 11:24 AM
Honestly, it's the atmosphere that bothers me. Every time I go to a game, the crowd is full of people who would rather talk on their phones than watch the first 40 minutes of game action. I dunno.. PS&E needs something to motivate the crowd and make it more fun and exciting throughout the entire game. It's a huge contrast to every IU game I've been to, when the whole crowd is jumping and yelling on every possession from the tipoff. If they can do that for a Mike Davis-coached team, then certainly it could happen at Conseco... regardless of how the Pacers are playing :-o

RWB
01-11-2007, 11:25 AM
Bought the 10/11 game package for the Mrs. and I plus additonal tickets for other family members for three other games already. At a round trip of approximately 200 miles yes distance does make a difference.

While it would seem people being able to watch the games on FSN might deter them from going to the game I think the opposite is true. This isn't absolute and of course there are exceptions, but I do believe folks who really like the Ps go to as many games as possible within budget and time. FSN helps sell tickets for those who have a smaller interest I think. The casual fan who may see a game on television get's the notion that maybe it would be cool to see a game live.

The die hards like those who post here are going to the games as the can.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-11-2007, 11:28 AM
I've already gone on record saying I prefer to watch the games from the comfort of my home. I still attend anywhere from 10-15 games a season. I have never actually purchased a ticket. I receive all of my tickets thru relatives and friends. Usually a last minute call and an offer to go to a game that starts in an hour or two. I can't afford to buy the kind of seats I'm accustomed to sitting in. If I do go to a game, I sit on the floor, in a suite, in the 9th row at near center court, in the players wives section ( which is behind the goal and up about 20 rows) or in some other totally sweet company/rich guys season tickets. I can't afford to buy those kind of seats and I've become spoiled. If I can get to half the home games and never buy a ticket that I can't afford in the first place, why on earth would I buy the ones I can afford and then wish I was sitting where I normally do sit. I'll watch the games at home with a couple of buddies, throw down a few beers and wax poetic on the virtues of Mel Mel the Abuser's sweet passes.

I also have two young children and my wife won't let me buy tickets to 41 Pacers games every year.

Robobtowncolt
01-11-2007, 11:29 AM
Where is the "I would never buy one" option?

Putnam
01-11-2007, 11:33 AM
You left out an option:

*If Tinsley and Jackson were traded.

I went to the first couple of games, but I found I can't stand watching Jackson have his little tirades towards the refs as the ref of the team runs down the floor. As long as this team is lead by those knuckleheads, I'm satying home and voting with my wallet. It's the only way I can make management know that I don't like what I see. As long as people fill the seats, no matter what, TPTB have just that much more reason to stay the course. I mean, they're still making their money, right?

Trade those guys and I'm back in a heartbeat.


Scott, I meant for your position to fall under "the players were more likeable." Thanks for making it clear that serious fans DO feel this strongly about certain players on the roster.



.

Dr. Goldfoot
01-11-2007, 11:35 AM
When I do go to the games I forget to actually watch. I get distracted by the beer man, the crew disassembling their trampolines after a timeout, the 4-5 cigarettes I have to go outside to smoke, the hot chick a couple rows over, the cameras that are mounted behind the backboards, the passing of strangers money only to have to pass a beer the other way 4 seconds later.....that's why I prefer to watch the games at home so I can pay attention and not get suprised when there's 3 minutes to go in the fourth and I have no idea what's going on.

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 11:38 AM
Money, time, and family comittments for me (2 teenagers and their activities).

I recently had those freebies for the 12th row behind vistior bnch. Honesty, It has been along time since I had seen that much excitement and enthusiasm from the people around me. This lwer bowl crowd was really into the game, jumpin cheering, carrying on like the crowd I would expect but rarely see in the upper levels. I said that right, I've found as much hand sitting upstairs as I have ever seen down low. Numerous times I've been stared at for getting rowdy (and I don't get that rowdy) upstairs so I have never really bought into the theory that it is endemic with the lower seats.

Add to that, my family and I attend several games a year at Conseco for other events (IE Big 10 Womens Tourney) and always get really really good seats very reasonably. My kids hate going to the Pacer games because we have to sit in the upper level or not go as a family (one or two at a time). One of them even asked why anyone would buy a season ticket up so high. When I told em that they really loved the game I was told you can love it just as much from the couch with cheaper coke and popcorn.

Skaut_Ech
01-11-2007, 11:39 AM
Scott, I meant for your position to fall under "the players were more likeable." Thanks for making it clear that serious fans DO feel this strongly about certain players on the roster.



.

Oh, I know, Putnam. I was just being silly and voicing specifically my complaint, but I'd already checked that category about player likability.

maragin
01-11-2007, 11:39 AM
Distance: 2112.4 miles Time: 29hrs 16 minutes (approx)

Alpolloloco
01-11-2007, 11:40 AM
I would gladly attend at least one game in my life, but being from The Netherlands it would cost me a fortune.

Anyways, I would only go to a game if I could sit next to Dat Dude, I wonder if he is so humorous in real like he is online.

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 11:41 AM
When I do go to the games I forget to actually watch. I get distracted by the beer man, the crew disassembling their trampolines after a timeout, the 4-5 cigarettes I have to go outside to smoke, the hot chick a couple rows over, the cameras that are mounted behind the backboards, the passing of strangers money only to have to pass a beer the other way 4 seconds later.....that's why I prefer to watch the games at home so I can pay attention and not get suprised when there's 3 minutes to go in the fourth and I have no idea what's going on.

Been there done that. That is why I prefer the old coliseum to either MSA or Conseco. They turned the lights out over the crowd and it focused your attention on the playing floor.

RWB
01-11-2007, 11:51 AM
Been there done that. That is why I prefer the old coliseum to either MSA or Conseco. They turned the lights out over the crowd and it focused your attention on the playing floor.

Must have been an insurance adjusters nightmare. :-o :laugh:

I don't remember MSA being that bright Geez? You must have had better seats than I. ;)

indyman37
01-11-2007, 12:22 PM
It's sort of hard for me to go to games in NC when I live 3 hours away from the closest NBA arena. But I couldn't go anyways because no one would take me.

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 12:34 PM
Must have been an insurance adjusters nightmare. :-o :laugh:

I don't remember MSA being that bright Geez? You must have had better seats than I. ;)


About 8 seats to the right of the Simons (in the same row) Top of the 3 point line. I don't recall anywhere in MSA being dim....were you behind the curtains maybe??

Naptown_Seth
01-11-2007, 01:05 PM
Must have been an insurance adjusters nightmare. :-o :laugh:

I don't remember MSA being that bright Geez? You must have had better seats than I. ;)
MSA was always much brighter than MSG, but Conseco is doubly so I think. I really do wish they dimmed the crowd more myself. Feels more like an event that way.

I've been in similar situations as Goldfoot too, but with pretty pricey seats where I ended up really regretting it. It's nice to get to know the person near me, but a couple of times I've ended up talking about other stuff rather than the game. You try and get them refocused with "wow, did you see that" and then it's right back to whatever non-Pacers subject they were on. "Hey, can we take this over to the bar over free admission and $3 beers instead?" :D

Contrast that to going with Gnome or Imawhat where we did talk a lot, but at least it was mostly about what we were watching.


I never watch a game only live anymore, I always watch the Tivo later because I can rewind and look at plays and stuff, especially OFF THE BALL. That's where a lot of the good stuff happens anyway.


And right now I just gots no bread man. If it wasn't for PD charity I still wouldn't have seen a single game live this year. :(
But that's the only reason for me. I'd be there every night if I could afford it.

Destined4Greatness
01-11-2007, 01:07 PM
You left out an option:

*If Tinsley and Jackson were traded.

I went to the first couple of games, but I found I can't stand watching Jackson have his little tirades towards the refs as the ref of the team runs down the floor. As long as this team is lead by those knuckleheads, I'm satying home and voting with my wallet. It's the only way I can make management know that I don't like what I see. As long as people fill the seats, no matter what, TPTB have just that much more reason to stay the course. I mean, they're still making their money, right?

Trade those guys and I'm back in a heartbeat.

So in essence, bandwagon fan. Or just a fan of players. Support the team no matter who plays man the same as if they had 15 guys you loved.

31andonly
01-11-2007, 01:16 PM
Distance: 4600 miles
Plane ticket: 350 (=455 $)

:(

RWB
01-11-2007, 01:32 PM
About 8 seats to the right of the Simons (in the same row) Top of the 3 point line. I don't recall anywhere in MSA being dim....were you behind the curtains maybe??


Behind the curtains...........:laugh: you're killing me smalls.

I must be getting old because I always thought starting a few rows from the start to the upper levels where the tv cameras were at half court the lights were dimmed pretty well.

Close to the Simons huh? Should have had them buy you a round while you were down there.

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 01:34 PM
So in essence, bandwagon fan. Or just a fan of players. Support the team no matter who plays man the same as if they had 15 guys you loved.

Substitute Carol Burnett for Angelina Jolie and do you still go see Tomb Raiders?

Destined4Greatness
01-11-2007, 01:42 PM
Substitute Carol Burnett for Angelina Jolie and do you still go see Tomb Raiders?

OK I think I get what you are saying. Same title less quality. Isn't only rooting for a team when they are great the essence of being a bandwagon fan?

Naptown_Seth
01-11-2007, 01:51 PM
Substitute Carol Burnett for Angelina Jolie and do you still go see Tomb Raiders?
Man, you are a geezer. Tomb Raider.

Let me guess, it's like my dad used to say, "Let's go to Best Buys". ;)


And does Burnett on board mean a better script? And what if Natalie Portman is added as a sidekick character with a nude swimming hole scene?

Point - I'm pretty sure JO, Al and Jeff are all major pieces of this current team too. Why would you protest Jack at the expense of supporting the rest of the team?

You don't like one of your kid's classmates, so you protest the school play featuring him by not going even though your own kid is also in it???

Imagine skipping a mid-90's Pacers game because you didn't like how Ferrell lived his life. Or pretend Dale is at Club Rio in 98 and you pass up seeing Reggie drop his shot over Jordan just to make a point.


So I don't think it's as simple as taking a stand against 2 players.

Plus if the point is that you want players of a certain style or character, then that implies that you would go as long as they played that better style and stayed out of trouble. Somehow I'm doubtful that kind of positive reinforcement is on the agenda.

Maybe go to every game following one in which Jackson plays "the right way" and skip every game following one in which he doesn't. Right now skipping games for Jack and Tins gets mixed into the batch with skipping just because the team doesn't win enough.

And if attendence goes up as the team wins more games then it only reinforces that as the reason, telling the Simons "just win baby".

Knucklehead Warrior
01-11-2007, 02:02 PM
And if attendence goes up as the team wins more games then it only reinforces that as the reason, telling the Simons "just win baby".

yes, for some that's quite true, but for others it's just JT and Jax2. That's their opinion.

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 02:08 PM
and for others...who are borderline as to whether to go or not....their presence could be the reason for going or not going. Their continued knuckleheadedness could be the tipping point for those deciding whether to buy season tix or not.

This is an old arguement that takes away from the thread tho.

(and that was the only AJ movie I could think of at the time)

Putnam
01-11-2007, 02:37 PM
1. Great gag, geezer.

2. Seth, the point of this thread is that people have a lot of reasons for not attending more games than they do. It is not a simple matter of "just win baby." Disabuse yourself of that notion, please.

We are men of science, so we know that 32 records on a voluntary poll is not conclusive. But so far, "the character of the players" is outpacing "the won/lost record" by more than 4 to 1. A lot of us DO care about character.

But it is not simply the "win v. play the right way" dichotomy that was discussed last week. There are people who stay away from Pacers' games because they love their kids or their wife and want to spend evenings ith them. Or because they are in college and are serious about their studies. Or because their local high school or college plays a more entertaining brand of basketball than the pro game. Or because attending the game really isn't even a very good way to follow the team.

3. If you can manage to get the Pacers to 10 games over .500 and leading the East, and if the attendance then zooms to more than 17,000 per game, I will be delighted to admit I was wrong here.

MagicRat
01-11-2007, 02:47 PM
I'd buy more tickets, but my wife would more than likely kill me.........

imawhat
01-11-2007, 02:48 PM
Point - I'm pretty sure JO, Al and Jeff are all major pieces of this current team too. Why would you protest Jack at the expense of supporting the rest of the team?


It's easy to protest just out of frustration. I said I wouldn't pay to see a Pacers game if Jax was on the team. That was directly after the Rio incident, and it's a lot easier to say when I'm 1800 airplane miles away. But I eventually got over my frustration and went, and for the reasons you state later in your post.



Putnam, I know in your other thread I stated that the city/people are to blame for the poor attendance, but I've been thinking about it and it obviously isn't that simple. Here we are on a message board with devoted Pacers fans and we're still getting the "I'd go if the team was more likeable" response. It's hard to like our team when previous teams had Reggie, Rik, Dale, etc. on them. But at the same time, Portland was selling out games when they were still the Jailblazers, and that was following the departure of likeable guys like Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, etc. And I'd say our questionable players don't even compare to Isiah Rider and Co., so what is holding our fans back?

FrenchConnection
01-11-2007, 06:15 PM
I'd buy more tickets, but my wife would more than likely kill me.........

That's the ticket right there!!:rolleyes:

I have two small children and a night at the game means that she has to feed them, bathe them and put them to bed without my help. I don't really like Stephen Jackson too much, but no player could keep me away from watching a game but my wife can and does.

Los Angeles
01-11-2007, 06:43 PM
Mine's easy: I would buy more tickets if I lived closer than 2000 miles away.

No freaking way am I going back to Indiana, when this is virtually in my back yard:

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Mark-Gibson/Pier-Sunset-Santa-Monica-CA-Photographic-Print-C11865705.jpeg

maragin
01-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Mine's easy: I would buy more tickets if I lived closer than 2000 miles away.

No freaking way am I going back to Indiana, when this is virtually in my back yard:

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Mark-Gibson/Pier-Sunset-Santa-Monica-CA-Photographic-Print-C11865705.jpeg

I walked past that spot last week. (I live 3 miles from the Santa Monica coast)

Similarly, no way I'm living in Indiana again. Note: March 3rd, Staples Center, Pacers at the Clips. I'm thinking of seeing my first Pacers away game.

lumber man
01-11-2007, 07:25 PM
I walked past that spot last week. (I live 3 miles from the Santa Monica coast)

Similarly, no way I'm living in Indiana again. Note: March 3rd, Staples Center, Pacers at the Clips. I'm thinking of seeing my first Pacers away game.i got a chance to visit l.a. not too long ago, we stayed at park la brea. if i could afford it, i would be living there. it's more than just a nice place to visit. i miss it terribly:cry:

indygeezer
01-11-2007, 07:41 PM
That's the ticket right there!!:rolleyes:

I have two small children and a night at the game means that she has to feed them, bathe them and put them to bed without my help. I don't really like Stephen Jackson too much, but no player could keep me away from watching a game but my wife can and does.

Oh yeah, that too.



Speaking in generalities, let's not forget that Indy leads the nation in home foreclosures and is at or near the top in bankruptcies. Our economy has been severly hurt by the closings of Ft. Ben, United Repair Hub, Chrysler foundry and the downsizing of Ford...on and on. When ya gotta make tough choices the entertainment dollars have to go first. (not speaking personally there)

imawhat
01-11-2007, 07:45 PM
i got a chance to visit l.a. not too long ago, we stayed at park la brea. if i could afford it, i would be living there. it's more than just a nice place to visit. i miss it terribly:cry:


I live in Park LaBrea!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/DiverseMusicians/IMG_1208.jpg

lumber man
01-11-2007, 07:54 PM
I live in Park LaBrea!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/DiverseMusicians/IMG_1208.jpg:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: . i am envious (but happy for you). i had a bad sinus infection right before we left for there, it took one day in that beautiful air for it to clear up. my favorite part was getting up in the morning and catching the smells coming from the farmers market. my wife gets annoyed with me because i always refer to going back as "going back home":D

ChicagoJ
01-11-2007, 07:56 PM
I live in Park LaBrea!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y129/DiverseMusicians/IMG_1208.jpg

I used to have a client named Doheny.

I think his grandfather was well known in that neighborhood. Something about "occidentally" discovering oil there.

Bball
01-11-2007, 07:57 PM
I would gladly attend at least one game in my life, but being from The Netherlands it would cost me a fortune.

Anyways, I would only go to a game if I could sit next to Dat Dude, I wonder if he is so humorous in real like he is online.

You wouldn't be able to watch the game. People would drive you crazy continually hovering around your seats to get his autograph. OTOH, you might get some leftover groupies if he's too tired to deal with them all!

:cool:

-Bball

Bball
01-11-2007, 08:07 PM
I answered "If the players were more likable".

If I was closer and the tickets were 4.00 then I might be inclined to deal with some of the things I don't like about the team.

But I still probably wouldn't attend as many games than if I liked the players better. IOW... I can't afford to put a lot of money into something that doesn't please me all that much (or better said, I can find better places for that money).

Also, IF the team played more consistently it would help. There's nothing like that feeling I got as the Suns destroyed us at Reggie's rafter ceremony.

So all those things tie together.

If I had money to burn it would help. If I had money to burn and plenty of free time it would help more. But the idea of carving out time and money for these Pacers doesn't thrill me. Maybe those three lines say it best for me.

-Bball

lumber man
01-11-2007, 08:10 PM
I live in Park LaBrea!
i'm pretty sure i stayed in the apartments to your left. would 6th street be at your back from that angle?

imawhat
01-11-2007, 08:26 PM
i'm pretty sure i stayed in the apartments to your left. would 6th street be at your back from that angle?


Yes, 6th street is behind us. I live in the tower off the main entrance...That's the leasing office in the center of the picture.

imawhat
01-11-2007, 08:35 PM
I used to have a client named Doheny.

I think his grandfather was well known in that neighborhood. Something about "occidentally" discovering oil there.


Nice! "Brea" is spanish for tar, and the apartment complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_La_Brea%2C_Los_Angeles%2C_California)is built directly on top of an area that used to be an oil field. There are some interesting pictures in the Trader Joe's close by. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_L._Doheny) might be your client's grandfather.

lumber man
01-11-2007, 08:48 PM
Nice! "Brea" is spanish for tar, and the apartment complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_La_Brea%2C_Los_Angeles%2C_California)is built directly on top of an area that used to be an oil field. There are some interesting pictures in the Trader Joe's close by. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_L._Doheny) might be your client's grandfather.
there is the tar pit(s) near by. i thought that was pretty odd, i guess it makes more sense now knowing what "Brea" actually means. "Tar Park" doesn't fit the neighborhood.

RamBo_Lamar
01-11-2007, 08:58 PM
I would buy more Pacer's tickets if.....

A.) Good seats were less expensive. Some may say I'm a tightwad, but I've
come to the conclusion that NBA games are not meant to be marketed or sold
to average people with average or below average incomes. They are meant
for wealthy people with alot more money to just throw around than most.

B.) Parking and concessions were less expensive (see above).

C.) If the team was really really good. If everyone knew these guys
were going to come out with swagger and play like championship contenders
night-in and night-out, then the costs associated with attending the game
would be largely negated. If I am going to pay to see my team play, I want
to see a team that every other team in the league respects, and knows
is going to give them holy hell when they step foot in our house.

D.) If they got rid of Bowser (I decided to pick on him instead of our
current crop of Pacemates). ;)

Skaut_Ech
01-11-2007, 08:59 PM
So in essence, bandwagon fan. Or just a fan of players. Support the team no matter who plays man the same as if they had 15 guys you loved.

Yes, by all means, I'm a bandwagon fan. That's why I've been going to games since they played at the fairgrounds. Let's see, what's that...oh, almost 40 yeras of being a fan? I didn't say I wouldn't watch them or support them. I just said I'm not going to games. Way to put words in my mouth and twist what I said. Phenomenal comprehension skills you have there.

beast23
01-11-2007, 09:11 PM
So in essence, bandwagon fan. Or just a fan of players. Support the team no matter who plays man the same as if they had 15 guys you loved.I don't really think you know who you are speaking to.

Scott is one of the original forum members, one who has always been behind the team come thick and thin. Probably even attended games when the curtains were up and MSA and they could only draw a couple of thousand fans. I'm pretty certain he's seen every season when our wins were in the low 20s.

For the record, I have EXACTLY the same opinion as Scott on this matter. Tinsley and Jackson are my irritants as well.

And I assure you that I've probably personally attended more games and spent more on tickets than just about anyone on this forum. Disliking Tinsley and Jackson does not prevent me from following the Pacers, nor does it stop me from hoping that they win every game that they play. All it means is that I have one hell of a time identifying with the team and attending the game in person.

I just don't like the 2 players in question. I don't like them as players and I don't like some of the very public displays they have presented in their supposed private lives. And my dislike of them tends to spoil seeing a live game for me.

And, whether they continue to attend games or not, I am of the firm opinion that quite a few, maybe even a majority, of ticket-buying fans 40 and over probably would be far happier if Tinsley and Jackson were not part of the team.

But frankly, the word bandwagon needs to be stricken from the forum. It is a word that evokes almost as much heat on here as a racial or ethnical slur. [And I'm in no way trying to diminish the impact of those slurs, I'm merely trying to place a magnitude of negativity on the word "bandwagon".]

Twes
01-11-2007, 09:59 PM
If my foggy memory serves Skaut post edthe first post on the star news board 36 years ago.

Ok, the math might be off a little.

It goes without saying "bandwagon" is about as far from the truth as a person could get.

beast23
01-11-2007, 10:15 PM
If my foggy memory serves Skaut post edthe first post on the star news board 36 years ago.

Ok, the math might be off a little.

It goes without saying "bandwagon" is about as far from the truth as a person could get.Whoa!!!! A Twes sighting....

What's the world coming to next?

Beast23 / FBOF.

Twes
01-11-2007, 11:14 PM
Whoa!!!! A Twes sighting....

What's the world coming to next?

Beast23 / FBOF.


Peace and prosperity?

:rockon: :rockon:

Robertmto
01-12-2007, 12:49 AM
I would buy more Pacers tickets if.....the Wizards came here more that twice.

;)

Naptown_Seth
01-12-2007, 06:33 AM
2. Seth, the point of this thread is that people have a lot of reasons for not attending more games than they do. It is not a simple matter of "just win baby." Disabuse yourself of that notion, please.
I didn't say that was the only reason, and in fact said that my own reason was lack of money.

What I said was that when they win attendence WILL 100% FOR CERTAIN GO UP. And you tell me what that bit of stats tells ownership.

It sure as heck doesn't say "I refuse to attend till Jack and Tins are gone". It says "just win baby". NOT ME, all those other fans who won't go until the team is winning. Take up your case with them and tell them to disabuse themselves of that notion, please or otherwise.


Now consider which factor would improve sales more. The team goes to 60-22 to end the season WITH Jack and Tins, or the team trades Jack and Tins and ends up around 40 wins.

3. If you can manage to get the Pacers to 10 games over .500 and leading the East, and if the attendance then zooms to more than 17,000 per game, I will be delighted to admit I was wrong here.
What if you get rid of Jack and Tins without improving wins and the attendence DOESN'T IMPROVE? Whoops. That's my point. Not only is this not a scientific poll, it's also not from among the group of people keeping attendence down. The average joe will be happy to point to things like Rio as a reason, but IMO the fact is that they lost touch with the details of the team when the team stopped winning enough.

JO is having his best season ever. Danny is coming along very well. Al is shooting the 3 better than Reggie did (for now). Foster is also having one of his best years.

The average joe doesn't even know these facts. They have no idea how those players are doing. Why? Because they check the scoreboard, see losses, and then turn the page to read about the winning Colts instead. They aren't chosing on character because they aren't even evaluating the situation on the level we are, they aren't reading about the details and seeing how things are going. They know about Rio only because it made big news.

And leads to my other point that there are plenty of good, enjoyable players worth paying to see.


I mean whose character kept these same people away in 1991 - Reggie, Chuck, Rik or Detlef? Bunch a classless thugs deserved the half empty MSA they got on most nights.

11,500 in 90-91, 12,600 in 91-92 - the 2 seasons surrounding that dramatic 1992 5 game series with Boston, ie they were a good, competitive team. It wasn't about winning, right? So I guess fans were taking a stand regarding character or those pricey $17-22 seats in the lower section.

And despite all those feel-good years the Pacers didn't sell out a single season until 99-2000, the first year of Conseco. And that was the only time its ever happened too (even the ABA years).


And to make the point even stronger, the 3rd highest average attendence for a season? THE BRAWL YEAR. Guess all that negative character didn't mean so much when Reggie was on his farewell tour. Sure they are thugs, but its my last chance to see Reggie and I have to make up for all the times I skipped games in 93 when he was actually earning his reputation.

ALF68
01-12-2007, 10:46 AM
Using the just win baby arguement, does not hold water, there are plenty of professional teams that almost yearly have bad teams, ie Cubs, and they pack the house. I would break the fans down into three groups, the first group are the hard core fans, who will attend the games no matter how well the team is doing or what type of players that are on the team, the second group would be the casual fan, they go more for the entertainment aspect rather than the nuts and bolts of the game, the third group, and to use a political analogy, are the independents, they are basically the first group with one major difference, they do care about the type of players that are on the team and they will not attend games if they don't like the players on the team.


Bottom line, the first two groups of fans will get you decent attendance figures, however it takes the participation of the third group to get near the sellout level on a regular basis. I think that the preseason PR was aimed at the third group and the Club RIO incident destroyed any chance to win this group of fans back. This group of fans will never embrace Jack or Tinsley no matter how well they play, that is just the cold hard reality. These two players have to go in order for these fans to come back and I think it will happen before this season ends.IMO

Unclebuck
01-12-2007, 10:51 AM
The first link has the Pacers attendance for every home game this season


http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=nba/teams/Attendance100.htm


This link has attendance for every season since the pacers started.

http://www.kenn.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba_ind_attendance.html

ChicagoJ
01-12-2007, 12:51 PM
I have a hard time believing the mid-80s amounts in the kenn.com link.

The "curtain" years. Averaging 10,000 plus?

Must've been off of "tickets sold" and not "butts in seats". But there's no way ticket sales were that high.

Los Angeles
01-12-2007, 01:12 PM
For trhe LA posters - I'll be out of town until February.

But after that, I'd like to get a west coast forum meeting organized!

ChicagoJ
01-12-2007, 01:20 PM
Nice! "Brea" is spanish for tar, and the apartment complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_La_Brea%2C_Los_Angeles%2C_California)is built directly on top of an area that used to be an oil field. There are some interesting pictures in the Trader Joe's close by. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_L._Doheny) might be your client's grandfather.

Yes he is.

He's got a fascinating history, and one of these times I'm going to have a "Doheny" trip and go to all the places in SoCal named after him. His family has poured a lot of money both into their Beverly Hills mansion and into philanthropy.

Putnam
01-12-2007, 01:31 PM
Excuse for butting in here and steering the off-topic thread even farther off.
But is there a connection between this Doheny of which you speak, and the one that popped into my mind:



If everybody had an ocean
Across the u.s.a.
Then everybodyd be surfin
Like californi-a
Youd seem em wearing their baggies
Huarachi sandals too
A bushy bushy blonde hairdo
Surfin u.s.a.

Youd catch em surfin at del mar
Ventura county line
Santa cruz and trestle
Australias narabine
All over manhattan
And down doheny way

Everybodys gone surfin
Surfin u.s.a.

Well all be planning that route
Were gonna take real soon
Were waxing down our surfboards
We cant wait for june
Well all be gone for the summer
Were on surfari to stay
Tell the teacher were surfin
Surfin u.s.a.

Haggerties and swamies
Pacific palisades
San anofree and sunset
Redondo beach l.a.
All over la jolla
At waimia bay

Everybodys gone surfin
Surfin u.s.a.

Everybodys gone surfin
Surfin u.s.a.

Everybodys gone surfin
Surfin u.s.a.

Putnam
01-12-2007, 01:36 PM
Or



Lets go surfin now
Everybodys learning how
Come on and safari with me
(come on and safari with...)

Early in the morning well be startin out
Some honeys will be coming along
Were loading up our woody
With our boards inside
And headin out singing our song

Come on (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari)with me
Come along (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari)with me

Lets go surfin now
Everybodys learning how
Come on and safari with me
(come on and safari with...)

At huntington and malibu
Theyre shooting the pier
At rincon theyre walking the nose
Were going on safari to the islands this year
So if youre coming get ready to go

Come on (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari) with me
Come along (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari) with me

Lets go surfin now
Everybodys learning how
Come on and safari with me
(come on and safari with...)

Theyre anglin in laguna in cerro azul
Theyre kicking out in dohini too
I tell you surfings mighty wild
Its getting bigger every day
From hawaii to the shores of peru

Come on (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari) with me
Come along (surfin) baby wait and see (surfin safari)
Yes Im gonna (surfin) take you surfin (surfin safari) with me

ChicagoJ
01-12-2007, 01:40 PM
I think Doheny beach was named after him, but I'll need to defer to our SoCal residents.

I know the USC library was named after him/ donated by his family.

Los Angeles
01-12-2007, 01:42 PM
Wow - I've been at it for only a few months and I've already surfed a good number of spots mentioned in Surfin USA.

Awesome!

And MR, yes I'm pretty sure that's the same Doheny.

100 years ago, rich easterners would come to California and create their own towns and even sometimes name the town after themselves (if not the town, then at least the main street.

Venice was a failed experiment by a developer named Abbot Kinney, who thought he could re-create Venice, Italy by scratching a bunch of canals into the sand. I live 2 blocks from Abbott Kinney Blvd, and my street was once under water.

MagicRat
01-12-2007, 01:43 PM
And MR, yes I'm pretty sure that's the same Doheny.

Thanks. I've been wondering that for quite some time.....

Robobtowncolt
01-12-2007, 01:46 PM
I might actually buy more if MagicRat would continue to send me free tickets. But that might interrupt my Final Fantasy XII time.....

MagicRat
01-12-2007, 01:50 PM
I might actually buy more if MagicRat would continue to send me free tickets. But that might interrupt my Final Fantasy XII time.....

You're almost as annoying as Dantro's wife......No free tickets for you!

Putnam
01-12-2007, 02:57 PM
I can't stop myself.........


Venice was a failed experiment by a developer named Abbot Kinney, who thought he could re-create Venice, Italy by scratching a bunch of canals into the sand. I live 2 blocks from Abbott Kinney Blvd, and my street was once under water.




There's blood in the streets, it's up to my ankles
Blood in the streets, it's up to my knee
Blood in the streets in the town of Chicago
Blood on the rise, it's following me

Think about the break of day
She came and then she drove away
Sunlight in her hair

Blood in the streets runs a river of sadness
Blood in the streets it's up to my thigh
Yeah the river runs red down the legs of a city
The women are crying red rivers of weepin'

She came into town and then she drove away
Sunlight in her hair

Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind

Blood in the streets in the town of New Haven
Blood stains the roofs and the palm trees of Venice
Blood in my love in the terrible summer
Bloody red sun of Phantastic L.A.

Blood screams her brain as they chop off her fingers
Blood will be born in the birth of a nation
Blood is the rose of mysterious union

There's blood in the streets, it's up to my ankles
Blood in the streets, it's up to my knee
Blood in the streets in the town of Chicago
Blood on the rise, it's following me

Los Angeles
01-12-2007, 03:05 PM
I can't stop myself.........

There's a place on Washington right off the beach called Hinano's. It's one of the few "unspoiled" dive bars left in the area. Jim Morrison scratched his name on a plank of wood inside. NOBODY - and I mean NOBODY will tell you where the "signature" is. Trust me, I've asked the owner, who replied: "Jim WHO? [long pause] You think I'm going to tell you?" :grumble:

imawhat
01-12-2007, 03:07 PM
Yes, same Doheny. Which makes it even more ironic is that my roommate is employed by the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson's keyboardist lives two floors below me.

maragin
01-12-2007, 04:24 PM
Yes, same Doheny. Which makes it even more ironic is that my roommate is employed by the Beach Boys and Brian Wilson's keyboardist lives two floors below me.

Oh man, I know it's a long shot, but I gotta ask:

Is your roommate a manager/agent type for the Beach Boys that dated/married a crazy girl named Holly who subsequently moved back to Indiana?

...

Probably not, but I would find it hilarious if that was him.

Twes
01-12-2007, 04:26 PM
It's a time and logistics thing for us.

imawhat
01-12-2007, 06:48 PM
Oh man, I know it's a long shot, but I gotta ask:

Is your roommate a manager/agent type for the Beach Boys that dated/married a crazy girl named Holly who subsequently moved back to Indiana?

...

Probably not, but I would find it hilarious if that was him.

Nope, that's not him.

Unclebuck
01-12-2007, 11:49 PM
I'd buy more tickets if the Pacers play like this more often

Naptown_Seth
02-03-2007, 06:52 PM
It should be obvious why I'm bumping this - see the $4 ticket thread and the #2 and #3 reasons listed in this poll for not going to more games.

BobbyMac
02-04-2007, 10:23 AM
I would buy more Pacers Tickets if I still lived in Indiana.

imawhat
02-04-2007, 01:07 PM
I know the Lakers were in town, but Friday's attendance was in the 17,000s. It was at 15,000 for a Heat game feat. Shaq and Wade a couple of weeks ago. Maybe Kobe's a bigger draw, maybe it's the $4 tickets, but maybe we're starting to win back some attendance.