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View Full Version : Non-Pacer Fans - What are your thoughts on JO?



brich
12-10-2006, 01:34 AM
There seems to be alot of talk for or against Jermaine O'neal recently. Most of those discussions around people who are fairly biased for or against him. How do some of you who root for other teams view JO? How talented do you think he is, where do you think he ranks as a player? Do you think he is limited by the players around him, etc.?

Just interested in a different perspective.

brich
12-11-2006, 10:14 AM
I am going to bump this once...just to see if any of our non-Pacer fan members missed this.

DisplacedKnick
12-11-2006, 02:11 PM
I guess I'll answer. About 3 years ago I thought he was a top-ten player in the league - or at the very least was on the verge of that. Now I'm not sure he's a top-50 player in the league.

Part of it's the injury trouble but the real problem is after watching the Pacers over the years, his game impact on a nightly basis seems to be less than his numbers.

He needs a top perimeter player where he becomes the number 2 option - at best 1A depending on the team you're playing. IOW, I don't consider him a true franchise player or worthy of a max contract any more.

brich
12-11-2006, 02:21 PM
Thanks for the post...with all of the non-Pacer fans that frequent this board, I was hoping for more feedback.

It gets hard to find out how objective the feedback on him is sometimes on this board. Jermaine is the favorite player of many on this board, but his recent comments in the press have left him reviled by just as many. I just want to know how some folks who aren't really caught up either way feel.

piksi
12-11-2006, 03:19 PM
Well, we have Kenny Thomas as our starting PF. So I would trade with You in a second. He is an all star player. You guys could do much, much worse on that position especially comparing it to Your issues in the back court. You guys need a new PG and SG.

denyfizle
12-11-2006, 03:37 PM
he is not a top 50 player???? sorry im a Pacer fan but JO not a top 50 player? i dunno about that.

Fireball Kid
12-11-2006, 04:11 PM
he is not a top 50 player???? sorry im a Pacer fan but JO not a top 50 player? i dunno about that.

At this point, I think he is a top 20-25 player. No more, no less.

He might be slightly better than Emeka Okafor. I think he's even with Chris Bosh and Elton Brand.

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-11-2006, 04:21 PM
JO is a top 15 player. Nobody can name me 30 players better then him.

Hes a 20/10/3/3 player and adds a big man in the paint that other teams are scared of. Not a lot of big men like that in the league.

shags
12-11-2006, 04:31 PM
I think he's a year-in, year-out All-Star. Nothing more, nothing less.

I also think he's very injury-prone. This is the 3rd straight year he's been out with an injury (granted, this one doesn't seem to be long term). However, I would expect every player to be available to play 75 games a year. I would divide their totals by 75 games. If you do that for O'Neal, here are the numbers:

2006: 13.7 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.56 bpg, $16,440,000
2005: 14.2 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.17 bpg, $14,796,000

To be fair, his near MVP season.

2004: 20.9 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.65 bpg, $13,152,000

There you have it. Draw your own conclusions from the numbers.

EDIT: Here are his numbers from this season (should have played 20 games based on the formula):

2007: 17.0 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 2.9 bpg, $18,084,000

tdubb03
12-11-2006, 04:41 PM
I'm a Pacers fan, but I'll still answer.

He's great. Probably top 25 or so. But he's not a franchise cornerstone.

Kstat
12-11-2006, 04:44 PM
In a halfcourt set offense playing behind a center, he was an MVP candidate.

But in an up-tempo game where he get lulled into taking a silly amount of 15-18 footers, he's very average offensively, because he's not going to beat double teams with his court vision, and he's a capable but inconsistent shooter. Chris Bosh can get away with it. JO can't.

Stick him on the low block though, and he can beat any big man in the NBA one on one. Post and re-post him every posession, and he can collapse a defense in the paint and change a game with his presence alone.

His defense is very underrated. I think it;s the one area of his game where he's improved over the last 3 years.

Leisure Suit Larry
12-11-2006, 04:45 PM
Why are there non-Pacer fans on here?

DisplacedKnick
12-11-2006, 04:47 PM
At this point, I think he is a top 20-25 player. No more, no less.

He might be slightly better than Emeka Okafor. I think he's even with Chris Bosh and Elton Brand.

Brand's averaged 80 games per year the last two seasons and Bosh has never played less than 70 in a season.

Okafor's an interesting comparison but IMO JO has less impact on games than him - partly because I think Okafor's used more correctly. But he has his own durability issues. I think I'd take JO over him.

But when I look at a combination of age, durability and impact on games, JO is much lower on my radar than he was 2-3 years ago. He's pretty good but not that good. I'm pretty sure I could come up with 40 players I'd definitely want over him and another 20 or so I'd have to sit down and think about.

Hard to get excited about someone you can only count on for 50 games/year.

Kstat
12-11-2006, 04:49 PM
Okafor is much more disciplined, though. He rarely settles for a jumper when he can take it inside.

Naptown_Seth
12-11-2006, 06:18 PM
Interesting views from Kstat and Shags

Obviously if JO goes 70-75 games this year it will boost his rep back up somewhat.

v_d_g
12-11-2006, 06:27 PM
Top TEN??:laugh:

Hey, I wouldn't give David Lee for him, let alone Bosh or Brand.

Kstat
12-11-2006, 06:34 PM
If JO was better used as a full-time power forward (like Duncan has been), he'd be up there in that top-10 class.

IMO, JO is what Duncan would have been if he was drafted and developed by circus clowns.

DisplacedKnick
12-11-2006, 07:23 PM
Okafor is much more disciplined, though. He rarely settles for a jumper when he can take it inside.

Okafor isn't hyped as the number one option on offense though - he can play off Paul and be more selective. A lot of the time JO is almost forced to shoot, even when it's not his shot, because that's what the team expects.

Like I said - Okafor is used more correctly.

shags
12-11-2006, 07:45 PM
Okafor isn't hyped as the number one option on offense though - he can play off Paul and be more selective. A lot of the time JO is almost forced to shoot, even when it's not his shot, because that's what the team expects.

Like I said - Okafor is used more correctly.

IBSRDKTPAODPOTST

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-11-2006, 08:00 PM
KStat has pretty summed it all up.

JO in the post can beat anyone one on one and is a top 10 player.

The JO we have now that stays along the 15-17 foot mark for jumpers isnt as effective. How can Al spend more time in the post then JO does?

Dr. Goldfoot
12-11-2006, 08:23 PM
JO isn't a top 10 player.

Steve Nash
Dwane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Tracy Mcgrady
Yao Ming
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce
Michael Redd


That's 13 and doesn't even include guys like
Elton Brand
Jason Kidd
Shaquille O'Neal
Amare Stoudemire
Zach Randolph
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Emeka Okefor
Lamar Odom
Shawn Marion
Rashard Lewis
Joe Johnson
Dwight Howard
Rip Hamilton
Pau Gasol
Baron Davis
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Chauncey Billups
Ron Artest
Ben Wallace
Gilbert Arenas
Ray Allen

That's 37 players that one could argue have bigger impacts on a game than JO in my opinion.

rexnom
12-11-2006, 08:50 PM
Hate to post as a Pacer fan but I just have to say that JO is such a HUGE part of what we do that right now he has just as good of a season as many of the guys that are considered to be individually more talented than him. Defensively he does so much and I think his offense is starting to open up it for other guys more and more.

Overall, JO's impact is on an elite level and isn't that what matters?

kidthecat
12-11-2006, 09:29 PM
Kstat said it best.

It's probably the biggest reason why I'm upset with this "up-tempo" offense. The Pacers have the best shot at neutralizing JO before the other team.

skyfire
12-11-2006, 09:33 PM
I heard that George Karl uses a system of 10-10-10 with Melo to make sure he doesn't settle for too many jumpers. Put up 10 points in the paint and 10 free throws and you can put up 10 jump shots.

Now the numbers might need to be a bit different for JO but I think he needs to use his ability to hit jump shots as more of a decoy to attack the rim.

McKeyFan
12-11-2006, 10:23 PM
JO isn't a top 10 player.

Steve Nash
Dwane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Tracy Mcgrady
Yao Ming
Dirk Nowitzki
Paul Pierce
Michael Redd


That's 13 and doesn't even include guys like
Elton Brand
Jason Kidd
Shaquille O'Neal
Amare Stoudemire
Zach Randolph
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Emeka Okefor
Lamar Odom
Shawn Marion
Rashard Lewis
Joe Johnson
Dwight Howard
Rip Hamilton
Pau Gasol
Baron Davis
Vince Carter
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Chauncey Billups
Ron Artest
Ben Wallace
Gilbert Arenas
Ray Allen

That's 37 players that one could argue have bigger impacts on a game than JO in my opinion.

How many of those are max contract guys?

That would make the comparison even more insightful.

Jermaniac
12-11-2006, 10:31 PM
lmao JO isnt a top 50 player. Yeah and then you woke up.