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View Full Version : Its time to blow this team up



Destined4Greatness
12-09-2006, 10:36 PM
JO - Hurt already
Jack - Causing problems already
Tinsley - Too much of a gamble, hes increased his value use it

Besides Feisty and possibly Harrison there is nobody from the Brawl team that I think should still be here.

Shade
12-09-2006, 10:43 PM
We either need to blow up the team or trade off a couple "problem" players and get a new coach. Carlisle cannot coach this team, and I'm not sure this team will work with anyone else at the helm either.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 10:46 PM
I see give us the rest of the season with JO and Iverson if we can get him, if that doesn't work BLOW IT UP.

Moses
12-09-2006, 10:47 PM
Some of you guys are hilarious.

You didn't expect us to beat the Cavs without JO did you? He single handedly beat them last game.

odeez
12-09-2006, 10:51 PM
This team needs a few things. I think the most important thing would be a team leader and someone who scores everynight. JO is not a team leader in my opinion. I love JO, but he is not that guy, he is a important piece to a championship puzzle.

I have been calling for Rick's head for a while, I just grow tired of his style of coaching. But I don't think TPTB will fire him.

So one answer, bring in the Answer! Trade whoever you want, just get him. If that can't happen. Be ready for a first round exit in the playoffs and a so-so up and down .500 record.

Destined4Greatness
12-09-2006, 10:51 PM
Some of you guys are hilarious.

You didn't expect us to beat the Cavs without JO did you? He single handedly beat them last game.

Yeah basketball ain't a team game, JO played 5 on 1 passed it to himself.

Slick Pinkham
12-09-2006, 10:55 PM
not sure a "blow up" is necessary, but Jackson must be dealt with. Since he is going on trial, his value may be nothing so about all we can do is suspend him for conduct.

Tinsley has been healthy enough to gain trade value, so I'd move him.

Shade
12-09-2006, 10:59 PM
Yeah basketball ain't a team game, JO played 5 on 1 passed it to himself.

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. It's not like JO is Dallas Clark or something. ;)

Unclebuck
12-09-2006, 11:15 PM
Terms like "blow it up" just bug me to no end. I mean are we no better than Kravitz.

#31
12-09-2006, 11:19 PM
Blow up? Sure! How many C4s do u need?

kidthecat
12-10-2006, 12:01 AM
I think the problem is the lack of identity. Previous Carlisle teams were all walk-em-ups and relied on solid defense and controlling the tempo. This team is in a flux between that and running the break. Honestly, even without any good shooters, this is still a possible 50-win team, if it can go back to the boring ball we all watched the past three years.

lenin_fresh
12-10-2006, 12:09 AM
I think we shouldn't worry so much about playing a tough team on a back to back. Yeah, it sucks that the Pacers got the unholy hell stomped out of them tonight. But it was a back to back without JO.

That said I do think we should try and get Iverson. I have no idea what Philly would want out of this roster. That's not a knock, it's just that they have a promising young swingman and a power forward with a max contract to.

BlueNGold
12-10-2006, 12:18 AM
Bad decisions. It is a set of pretty good players who fit very poorly as a team. It is a failed plan that I thought might happen when TPTB decided to ignore the need to have any pure shooters on the floor. Heck, we are not even particularly quick on the perimeter....and we are fairly soft in the middle. TPTB have made some moves, but it is looking more and more like the wrong moves. We did not get to this stage overnight.

Shack80
12-10-2006, 12:18 AM
No Iverson, we have had enough headcases on this team. Deal jack Asap, hopefully for some value, but he need to leave. I would like to see JO gone. he is a good PF and i think he is a decent guy and really wans to win. I really believe no team will win a championship with him as the franchise, he is just not that good or have the intangibles. Somewhere else he might work out better if they have a player to be the real game winner. He is just not it, he wants and trys to be, but it is never goingto happen here. I would like to se the pacers move both, preferably trades that are heavy in draft picks/ young talent. The team will not be good after, but likely more fun to watch.

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-10-2006, 12:26 AM
We win a game everyones having the times of there lives and we state everythings looking like its going to work well.

We lose a game and we should blow the team up and start from scratch because we are not good enough.

How fun.

3rdStrike
12-10-2006, 12:35 AM
The problem isn't Carlisle. He doesn't make the trades. The problem isn't O'Neal. He plays well. The problem is a general lack of talent at center and shooting guard. Center is not as big of an issue because Foster gets rebounds.

Let's face it, as a starting SG Stephen Jackson is not good. His shooting is poor, he's slow, he doesn't create for teammates, he is a horrible rebounder (and as one of the taller SG in the game it's a real shame), and he's obviously not a great character guy.

The team needs a SG badly. Jackson is not it, Daniels is not it. I say it's Green time.

Leisure Suit Larry
12-10-2006, 01:53 AM
JO - Hurt already
Jack - Causing problems already
Tinsley - Too much of a gamble, hes increased his value use it

Besides Feisty and possibly Harrison there is nobody from the Brawl team that I think should still be here.

What the hell? Why are you on Tinsley. He's played great this year and hasn't done anything wrong. Everyone is going to have off nights in an 82 game season.

Seriously, if we got a whole new team a lot of you would still be whining about how they are a bunch of thugs who don't care and how you wish Reggie was back (Reggie Miller is not walking through that door ;) ). You'll never be satisfied.

Destined4Greatness
12-10-2006, 02:06 AM
The problem isn't Carlisle. He doesn't make the trades. The problem isn't O'Neal. He plays well. The problem is a general lack of talent at center and shooting guard. Center is not as big of an issue because Foster gets rebounds.

Let's face it, as a starting SG Stephen Jackson is not good. His shooting is poor, he's slow, he doesn't create for teammates, he is a horrible rebounder (and as one of the taller SG in the game it's a real shame), and he's obviously not a great character guy.

The team needs a SG badly. Jackson is not it, Daniels is not it. I say it's Green time.

Um, thats a horrible assesment of Jacks ability. Considering he is a scorer not a shooter. And his D is very solid. His Steals are well above League average for guards, and hsi Assists are slightly above it, yeah he doesn't create for team mates. And um since when is your SG supposed to rack up the Rebounding numbers.


And my problem with Tinsley isn't anything he has done, its what are hte odds he stays healthy all year, like 10%. No thanks trade him while he has some value buitl up.

McKeyFan
12-10-2006, 02:08 AM
I say it's Green time.

Green?

He's a defensive point guard, known to be a poor shooter.

We need a "shooting guard," the kind that makes, you know, shots from the outside.

3rdStrike
12-10-2006, 02:13 AM
He's a scorer not a shooter? What is that supposed to mean? He gets about 12.5 points per game on under 40% shooting and jacks up threes.

His D is okay sometimes, but he gets torched sometimes. He's far from a premier defender.

When Jamaal Tinsley is outrebounding your 6'8 SG night it and night out, you have a problem rebounding.


But go ahead, assess Jack's ability from your perspective.. I know enough about your history with defending him that this should be amusing.

3rdStrike
12-10-2006, 02:14 AM
Green?

He's a defensive point guard, known to be a poor shooter.

We need a "shooting guard," the kind that makes, you know, shots from the outside.


No "e". Gerald Green, not Orien Greene.

McKeyFan
12-10-2006, 02:17 AM
No "e". Gerald Green, not Orien Greene.

xcellent.

Evan_The_Dude
12-10-2006, 02:36 AM
Blow the team up? No. We have the right pieces but we need a star player that we can go to in crunch time and count on. J.O. is just a guy that we want to be the start player that we go to in crunch time, but he's not the right guy for that role. As much as most people here might disagree, I' going to say it. If there's any team in the league that has a use for Iverson, I think it's us more than anybody. What do we have to lose by at least making an attempt to get him, or just inquiring about what it would take? I'm sure the inquiry has already been made, but I doubt we'll get him.

Jermaniac
12-10-2006, 02:37 AM
lol @ Harrison.

maragin
12-10-2006, 04:04 AM
I think that after losing one in a row with our our All Star out we should panic, panic, panic. That's the only logical thing to do.

gph
12-10-2006, 11:27 AM
Blow the team up? No. We have the right pieces but we need a star player that we can go to in crunch time and count on. J.O. is just a guy that we want to be the start player that we go to in crunch time, but he's not the right guy for that role. As much as most people here might disagree, I' going to say it. If there's any team in the league that has a use for Iverson, I think it's us more than anybody. What do we have to lose by at least making an attempt to get him, or just inquiring about what it would take? I'm sure the inquiry has already been made, but I doubt we'll get him.

I have to go with the Celtics. To me, Iverson is their best bet. They aren't giving up on Pierce, and Iverson's game will fit Pierce's game. PP did great when Walker was jacking up shots, so welcome to the Answer ball.

For the Pacers, I can't think of a better description than blowing it up. Outside of the Knicks, there isn't any other team that needs a blow up more than the Pacers. When 2nd year players, scrub reserves, and a 38 year old are most people's favorite Pacers AND the most talked about on an educated forum like this, that screams blow up to me. Quis? Orion Greene? the former pacer, Flight? Marshall? Powell? Granger? That is pitiful.

Carlisle can't work with this bunch, Bird and Donnie are lost...everybody needs a change. Getting Iverson to go with JO or Al, or both doesn't fix the lack of a point or the soso defense. And the payscale cripples us.

I love the Pacers through and through, but I can't spend the money on tickets watching these guys, and I feel greasy putting on my hoodies. No matter how this turns out, I am still a Pacers fan, but man...could they make it just a little easier to support them?

Destined4Greatness
12-10-2006, 12:09 PM
He's a scorer not a shooter? What is that supposed to mean? He gets about 12.5 points per game on under 40% shooting and jacks up threes.

His D is okay sometimes, but he gets torched sometimes. He's far from a premier defender.

When Jamaal Tinsley is outrebounding your 6'8 SG night it and night out, you have a problem rebounding.


But go ahead, assess Jack's ability from your perspective.. I know enough about your history with defending him that this should be amusing.

LOL you don't know the difference between a scorer and a shooter. Your new its ok.

3rdStrike
12-10-2006, 12:36 PM
The difference between a scorer and a shooter is that you call someone who can't shoot a scorer because it justifies their inadequacies in your world.


That's my version, now what's yours? How is a SCORER someone who averages uner 13 ppg? Wow.

hoopsforlife
12-10-2006, 01:40 PM
This team has already been blown up. I think this team blew up during the RA episode. TPTB need to pick up the good pieces that are left and throw out the rest. They already threw out some players last summer. Those were good people and good competitors. The kind of players fans could be proud of.

They kept all the real head cases and selfish players who needed to go, so I'm not real surprised this is all coming apart at this time.

My concern is that our young players will be contaminated by these current fools and will be ruined before they get a chance to develop.

I would, as I have previously stated, turn this team upside down. I'd play the young guys with heart who have futures in the league and on this team. I'd trade all the trouble making, bad attitude, poor effort players on the team for draft picks or what ever we could get. Or I'd simply cut them. They would be gone asap. They should have been gone this past summer.

We will not win with these guys and the sooner they are gone the better.

Ragnar
12-10-2006, 01:44 PM
Mainly we need a new coach.

rexnom
12-10-2006, 01:53 PM
Mainly we need a new coach.
Please, that's the only thing I'm sure of with this team. That and Conseco Fieldhouse.

Naptown_Seth
12-10-2006, 02:00 PM
not sure a "blow up" is necessary, but Jackson must be dealt with. Since he is going on trial, his value may be nothing so about all we can do is suspend him for conduct.

Tinsley has been healthy enough to gain trade value, so I'd move him.
Didn't Rick just deal with him?

He got sent packing. That's zero tolerance to me. Now Jack can be mature and recognize his F up, that he let his emotions do the talking for him, and come back focused, or he can continue to be dealt with.


Consider his trade value about 50% of his current contract, which means at best you get a player like AJ back in exchange, but being paid $6-7m to play that way. It will be much worse than a "good" Jackson and will only be a quality deal in the sense of moving a bad attitude.


Hard to say how the Ron thing factors in here because on one hand you have a franchise that has to feel like "enough is enough" but on the other hand you see how much of a talent hit the team took in the process of moving Ron. Even before Ron was traded they struggled, and once Peja got in the team ended up playing poorly after a brief homestand run of good play (including the healthy Foster-Pollard combo which ran out after a week or so).


I think if Jack forces a deal with his attitude then the Pacers probably are in blow-up mode because the talent hit at SG to fix another attitude will take them perhaps just outside the playoffs, and if that's going to be the reality then you might as well fix things properly.

Sadly I'd say that with a focused Jackson this team can be strongly competitive (assuming a regular, healthy roster with him). It's worth it to keep him in the fold as a productive part of the team.

Is that possible? The Jack haters are unreliable to answer that, but RC sending him to the locker room is intersting.



Side note - on one of my teams I had an ultra-talented player who had a ton of bad attitude. He had no tolerance for other players messing up and often gave up on plays in frustration, etc. I had to get tougher and tougher on him until one game I did the same thing Rick did, I said "get out of my dugout" after he threw one of his on field fits.

Here's the point - I really liked the kid both as a person and a player. He was just immature and needed to learn to control himself to go to the next step. We weren't enemies after that incident in the least. Is this the RC/Jack relationship, friendly but emotional, or is Jack just an a-hole? There is a lot of evidence that says emotional IMO. Follow up to that, can he learn to control it better? Iffy, he should have learned it long ago.

Peck
12-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Mainly we need a new coach.

Why?

How would a new coach fix the problem of TPTB trading for players built to play more up tempo & non-isolation basketball but yet still keeping a core group of players intact that either needs or wants to play isolation basketball?

Until we get either a proper mix of players or a clear direction from TPTB on what will be played on the floor I just don't see a coach change making a big differance.

To me, Rick has already proven that he was willing to try something else. It wasn't him that called a meeting demandint that the offense change.

Peck
12-10-2006, 02:10 PM
Didn't Rick just deal with him?

He got sent packing. That's zero tolerance to me. Now Jack can be mature and recognize his F up, that he let his emotions do the talking for him, and come back focused, or he can continue to be dealt with.


Consider his trade value about 50% of his current contract, which means at best you get a player like AJ back in exchange, but being paid $6-7m to play that way. It will be much worse than a "good" Jackson and will only be a quality deal in the sense of moving a bad attitude.


Hard to say how the Ron thing factors in here because on one hand you have a franchise that has to feel like "enough is enough" but on the other hand you see how much of a talent hit the team took in the process of moving Ron. Even before Ron was traded they struggled, and once Peja got in the team ended up playing poorly after a brief homestand run of good play (including the healthy Foster-Pollard combo which ran out after a week or so).


I think if Jack forces a deal with his attitude then the Pacers probably are in blow-up mode because the talent hit at SG to fix another attitude will take them perhaps just outside the playoffs, and if that's going to be the reality then you might as well fix things properly.

Sadly I'd say that with a focused Jackson this team can be strongly competitive (assuming a regular, healthy roster with him). It's worth it to keep him in the fold as a productive part of the team.

Is that possible? The Jack haters are unreliable to answer that, but RC sending him to the locker room is intersting.



Side note - on one of my teams I had an ultra-talented player who had a ton of bad attitude. He had no tolerance for other players messing up and often gave up on plays in frustration, etc. I had to get tougher and tougher on him until one game I did the same thing Rick did, I said "get out of my dugout" after he threw one of his on field fits.

Here's the point - I really liked the kid both as a person and a player. He was just immature and needed to learn to control himself to go to the next step. We weren't enemies after that incident in the least. Is this the RC/Jack relationship, friendly but emotional, or is Jack just an a-hole? There is a lot of evidence that says emotional IMO. Follow up to that, can he learn to control it better? Iffy, he should have learned it long ago.


I think there is a lot of truth in what you are saying & as long as Rick has a firm hand & has 100% support from TPTB it could work.

However here is the only problem. Our team has had to many of these type of players over the past few years & I'm not sure that what is not needed is a fresh start.

denyfizle
12-10-2006, 03:11 PM
My starting 5

ONeal
Harrington
Granger
Iverson
Jasikevicius

trade Jack, JT (they need a PG and SG to replace AI) they would probably want Harrison or Feisty or Daniels. WTH give em to them. AI is worth it and this team needs the change.

Destined4Greatness
12-10-2006, 03:13 PM
My starting 5

ONeal
Harrington
Granger
Iverson
Jasikevicius

trade Jack, JT (they need a PG and SG to replace AI) they would probably want Harrison or Feisty or Daniels. WTH give em to them. AI is worth it and this team needs the change.

So does AI come with a league mandate saying hte pacers can have 3 balls on the court at once.

denyfizle
12-10-2006, 03:31 PM
So does AI come with a league mandate saying hte pacers can have 3 balls on the court at once.

AI has never played with a post prescence like JO before. It'll be perfect man. They'll create opportunities for each other. Besides they're good friends. That really helps with chemistry. Take it from Ashton Kutcher. And if we really wanted to run before the season started, this would bring that into fruition. Man, I can only pray. This would be the best Christmas ever. Please Donnie and Larry.... get AI!!!!!!

JayRedd
12-10-2006, 03:53 PM
xcellent.

Probably the only thing I enjoyed from this thread.

Unclebuck
12-10-2006, 03:56 PM
As I said at the start of training camp the rebuilding job is only half over - this is by no means a finished product - not even close. All the changes this past summer was step one (well it really started with the Artest trade) but next summer will be step two. The Pacers are a team in transition - next year at this time we'll know what we have.

Destined4Greatness
12-10-2006, 04:02 PM
AI has never played with a post prescence like JO before. It'll be perfect man. They'll create opportunities for each other. Besides they're good friends. That really helps with chemistry. Take it from Ashton Kutcher. And if we really wanted to run before the season started, this would bring that into fruition. Man, I can only pray. This would be the best Christmas ever. Please Donnie and Larry.... get AI!!!!!!

Since when does JO play in the post. Granted I haven't seen many games but

A) JO will play only half the season
B) Whenever I check out the box score I see, JO shoots 10 footer, 12 footer etc. Did JO get back to his Post roots without me knowing.

And besides how Is JO wanting 14+ shots from the post going to keep AI from wanting the ball. Please JO HAD to take last second shots when we had Reggie, theres no way in hell he will share the offense with AI.