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View Full Version : Odd thoughts after 21 games & beating Portland



Peck
12-09-2006, 02:54 AM
First off I have a question.

Does Travis Outlaw play this well vs. everybody or does he just light up against us? I haven't seen Portland play another game other than vs. the Pacers so I have no idea, but this guy is just a wrecking ball out there. I like to watch him play.

Ok, let's hit the game.

The first quarter looked decent, the second quarter was abysmal & the entire second half was just fun.

Without making to big a deal of this, well I'm sure it will turn into a huge large giant deal, but I just will make this one comment.

I deeply enjoyed the play of the team during this game & there was a noticable differance between the style of play with JermaIne & without him.

I know he has his fans & they will be offended but I'll say it anyway. I enjoy seeing more players involved in the offense & I enjoy seeing more players play off of the bench.

As was said in another thread, Jamaal Tinsley was the key to this game & I'll just add this to the above there is a reason why he plays better when he is not just dumping it into the post. He can control the offense & control the ball, I'm not always thrilled with any one player controling the ball but I would rather have the p.g. making decisions than a post player.

But let's not just use this post to jump on O'Neal being gone. I freely admit the Blazers just are not very good & they are on their own E.C. road trip just like we did out west a week ago. So it would be fools gold to consider this anything more than just a win.

However I know that all of the O'Neal fans will be lining up for the Cavs. game with knives in hand. Don't get to excited by that either if we lose. It will be the second of a back to back for us & it will be with the Cavs wanting revenge for a loss from earlier & it will be with one the best players in the game eyeing us. So don't use that occasion to say we can't win without him either.

Ok, I'm off of O'Neal for the moment but I can't guarantee I won't be back.

Anyway Jamaal was wonderfull & he was even good on the defensive end. He did a decent job of shutting down the driving lanes for a change & he often disrupted the ball from the Blazers. I think he even blocked a couple of shots.

But he rebounded well & didn't take any shots that made me shake my head in wonder.

My favorite moment of the night was listening to Roaming Gnome have to back track on all of the bad things he was saying about Jamaal:laugh: . Hard to complain when he is playing like that.

Jackson was also a human dynamo. His drives into the lane were nothing short of breathtaking & his shooting was deadeye all night long. The good thing about his game last night was that he didn't forget one thing to do another. He rebounded & defended as well as lead us in scoring. He was great.

Maceo Baston is everything I want in a backup power forward. How this guy hasn't found a home before now in the NBA is beyond me. I'm just happy he has landed here.

For a guy who really is only slightly above average in size he sure knows how to use his body to his advantage. He is not afraid to bang with bigger players & I think right now he is the best pick setter on the entire team.

That 18' jumper he nailed was quite the shocker to all of us in our section. Nobody knew he was that smooth.

He is not a starter in this league but he is one hell of a backup. Actually, I'm not sure he's not a starter given the right circumstance but I know he is not going to start here. But I love the fact that he has cracked the rotation. Nothing makes me happier than having another big man come off of the bench intsead of the endless parade of small forwards that we use.

Speaking of small forwards. If you only read the box score then you will think Al Harrington didn't have that meaningfull of a game. But if you watched you could see that Al was doing hand to hand combat with Zach Randolph & other Portland post players.

Al has certainly learned how to use his body strength to his advantage over the years & he set a screen in the 4th quarter for Saras that blocked out two Blazers & they had no hope of getting around him. Saras missed a wide open layup but it was not Al's fault.

Al didn't rebound like I would have liked, in fact he didn't rebound well at all but between Foster & Tinsley it was hard to get boards.

But I'd probably say that second to Jamaal, both Jax & Al were tied for second in importance in this game.

If Al is going to wear Dale's number than I wish he would rebound more like Dale & shoot freethrows a lot less like Dale. 1-5 from the ft line?:hmm:

Let's not forget Jeff Foster. Have I mentioned to you guys that Jeff Foster has been born again hard? Just like Private Pyle in full metal jacket I think I will let Jeff play power forward/center in my beloved Pacers. I don't know what light switch turned on or what buttons were pushed but Jeff has gone from a dainty finesse player to some form of power player who uses his body to defend bigger players. Hell I can't even complain about his rebounds because they are not all of the weak sissy variety anymore. In fact Jeff has been down in the blocks laying a swath of destruction to the opponets lately.

Harrington, Foster & Baston? Yeah I like that, I like that a lot.

I understand those types of players & really love to watch them play.

I digress.

Saras did very well last night as well. Actually since I haven't been posting much lately I want to be sure to let everyone know that for the most part I have been very pleased with Saras these last few weeks. He will never be the player he was hyped to be & he will not be the star nor would he have ever been. But the guy is a good backup point guard who can hit some timely jump shots. He still can't defend that well & sometimes I close my eyes & pray when he is dribbling but man does he lay down some sweet sweet passes & hit some nice shots. He mixes it up & as Gnome said during the game he doesn't pigeon hole himself into just being a long distance shooter. He is hitting a variety of shots from driving floaters to mid range to long bombs.

David Harrison made his return in this game & I'll just say this. He didn't screw up. He came it & didn't get out of control & ruin the game for himself & everyone else. He wasn't great but it at least was better than the last few times I saw him on the floor. If J.O. is out for any length of time maybe he can start to work himself back into the rotation.

Now just for MagicRat I will let you know I did get off of my fat @ss & cheer once during this game. It was at the end of the quarter (I think it was the third) & Danny Granger blocked a shot at the buzzer of a driving layup that looked to be good. One heck of a block by Danny.

He played a decent game as well, nothing spectacular other than the block & a good drive but he did well. I still don't like him shooting 4 of his 7 shots from beyond the arc but he did hit 3 of 4 so it hard to complain to much about that. However he has got to get back to hitting the boards. I think 3 of his 4 boards came after missed freethrows.

But don't let me kid you, it wasn't all peaches & cream at the game. We did have one God awful thing.

At half time they had Dave the horn guy there. He is some loser from one of those dumb reality shows who plays horns on his body to differant songs. This was as bad as the time the team flew in the singing Flinstones back in the 90's during the Knicks playoff game. He was booed & booed loudly.

Sadly most of the booing was led in my section from my direct left by our good friend Roaming Gnome.:-p He actually got a group of people to boo this guy though so you do have to admire him for that.

Speaking of cheering I guess we had the Darrell Armstrong fan club up in section 204 last night. They were chanting the entire second half to have Darrell brought into the game & when he stood up & waved to them they burst out in cheers. This wasn't a couple of people either, there had to be 40 or so people cheering/chanting this.

Now a quick team summery from 21 games in.

When we started the season I liked what we had. I knew this wasn't a championship team, I never expected it to be. In fact I felt like a .500% would be a good goal at 20 games in so we did hit that mark. We had a bad schedule & let's face it the early pre-season gun play took a small toll on the team.

For the first 8 games of the season I was thrilled with the product. Sure we lost some games & in fact we were blown out of a couple. But then we were forced to change our style of play to suite one player. Now I know a lot of you agree with him & that is your right, but I just never believe that giving a team 8 games that had 8 new players was enough time to decide we should change the game because of one blow out loss. I am never for a player making that demand anyway but I know it happens. But the fact that we were forced to change our play has taken what was going to be one of the more enjoyable seasons for me in recent years into a season of, well frankly I don't know what it is.

I loved watching this team last night. Everybody was involved & more players got on the floor. But I am not dumb I know that it was vs. a bad team.

Kevin Lee said in the post game show that without JermaIne O'Neal this team is nothing but a .500% team & the caller he was talking to astutely pointed out that with JermaIne O'Neal this team was below .500% and had been for the last three seasons.

Does this make JermaIne a bad player? No. His talent is without question.

However as another poster points out in a very eloquent way. Teamball>>>>JOBall .

I know he has his fans & no I do not think if you are a fan of J.O. you are not a Pacers fan. I know fans who have been fans since the ABA days that love J.O.

But IMO he has no right to dictate anything on this team. This is not Shaq we're talking about here nor is it even Tim Duncan.

He is a good player but he is a good player with good stats because he dominates our offense & has for 6 years.

I have always had a luke warm reaction to JermaIne, I won't deny that. I have even for years said that because he was traded for Dale that people should discount what I said about him. But the statute of limitations has run out on that trade for me & what I feel now has nothing to do with Dale.

I do not like players who worry about their game first & yes I consider a player a "me" first player if his answer to a bad game is to make certain that he gets more touches where he prefers to get the ball. To me that is the coach's call, not the players & it certainly is not the players call when the team is at .500% just barely into the season.

Do you think for a min. that if the team was losing & he was getting a lot of low post touches that he would have stormed into the office & demanded that the answer to the losing was for him to get less shots? Me neither.

I'll say here what I said to anther person & please feel free to flame away at me. He is treated by some of our fans as though he wer on par with Tim Duncan, Shaq & Garnett. But in fact he is really no better than Shareef Abdur-Rahim in his prime. That's right I said he is no better. Now don't miss read that & say that I am saying Shareef was better, I'm just saying he's no better than he was back in the day.

So in short, which will come as no big suprise to anyone, I am looking forward to the day he is no longer on our team.

I tried, honestly I did. I even let myself be fooled after that N.Y. game into thinking that this was a one for all and all for one mentality. However when the going got tough, one of our players went & made sure the offense was better suited to his game.

That is why I have done a 180 on Rick Carlisle. Up until this season I was more than ready to see Rick hit the road. Not because he was a bad coach but because I never knew for sure why we kept running the same crap over & over.

Well, it was made crystal clear to me that Rick was more than willing to go a differant route & again one player demanded that that was not the way to go.

I'll say this now, even if you don't like what I have to say, you have to admit that Bird/Walsh were probably less than thrilled with that little speech & I would not be suprised to find out that there have been some calls made.

Also here is my early season prediction. JermaIne has the right to become a free agent this summer if he wants & he will choose to do so. He will expect a new max contract this summer & he will think he will get it from us. I think both he & his fans are going to be dissapointed.

So, while I love my Paces, I just am ready for this particular era of the Pacers to be over.

There are a lot of really good players on our team & our future is not dim by any means. But it is going to take a change in styles to ever maximize these guys & I look forward to when we can.

Yes, I know by actually saying aloud what I've been thinking I am opening up the debate of the factions.

I'll make you a deal. I won't call you a fan boy if you don't call me a hater.

Ok, that probably won't work because by definition I guess I am now an official hater. So never mind flame away at me.

Here as an offering of peace & harmony I give unto you dancing fruit.

:dance: :pepper: :carrot: :mango: :cucumber: :pineapple :rock: :apple: :dorange: :fatbanana :bdance: :bananadan :bgroovy:

And for Roaming Gnome's sake I present :dancingsager:



But I don't want to leave on a sour note. That game was really fun to watch & even though I am going to have to watch the game vs. the Cavs. later than normal because of visitors I am looking forward to it as well.

BTW, one last thing. Did anybody else see O. Greene come in and sink that jumper like he was Earl Monroe? I could stand to see more of that, although with the guard play as good as it was last night I don't know where he is goign to get the time.

Here's hoping Shawne Williams gets to play soone, either here or the D league.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 03:06 AM
LMAO, You are very mad. But thats okay. Making excuses and we didnt even play the Cavs yet. You already know whats gonna happen with out Jermaine so you just wanted to make an excuse for it before the game. Thats pretty good.

You know what I love though, Jermaine O'Neal is her for at least 60 some games, and every game he plays he makes you feel like crap because he is here. You hate it that he is playing on the Pacers but you cant do nothing about it but come on here and moan about it day after day. Just like with Ronnie. You cant stop watching Jermaine, you hate him but you pay to watch him play. So keep on crying about him, but you wont stop watching him play and you know it. Every time he comes out and puts up that 20,10,3,2 it will make me feel good for 2 reasons, one because he had a good game, and two because it hurts your soul that he is GOD and the most talented player to ever play for this franchise.

Back just like I left something.

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:26 AM
LMAO, You are very mad. But thats okay. Making excuses and we didnt even play the Cavs yet. You already know whats gonna happen with out Jermaine so you just wanted to make an excuse for it before the game. Thats pretty good.

You know what I love though, Jermaine O'Neal is her for at least 60 some games, and every game he plays he makes you feel like crap because he is here. You hate it that he is playing on the Pacers but you cant do nothing about it but come on here and moan about it day after day. Just like with Ronnie. You cant stop watching Jermaine, you hate him but you pay to watch him play. So keep on crying about him, but you wont stop watching him play and you know it. Every time he comes out and puts up that 20,10,3,2 it will make me feel good for 2 reasons, one because he had a good game, and two because it hurts your soul that he is GOD and the most talented player to ever play for this franchise.

Back just like I left something.

Hmmmm......

Interesting.

I notice that much like JermaIne you didn't talk about winning. You talked about his individual stats & his individual talents but you didn't talk about him leading us to victory.

I think that's telling.

Also, you really want to use my thoughts about Ron as an example here? Because I'm pretty sure I was proven right about that one as well.

Character my friend, it is something beyond scoring a basket or posing after a dunk.

But just like me you entitled to your opinion. I guess though when I see him put up that stat line you were bragging about & the team loses I can just sit back & know that at least you enjoyed the game.

Sollozzo
12-09-2006, 03:28 AM
Speaking of cheering I guess we had the Darrell Armstrong fan club up in section 204 last night. They were chanting the entire second half to have Darrell brought into the game & when he stood up & waved to them they burst out in cheers. This wasn't a couple of people either, there had to be 40 or so people cheering/chanting this.



I noticed that too. But the chanting wasn't just limited to Darrell Armstrong. They chanted "Donnie Walsh" for a while, but Walsh, who was sitting next to one of the Simon's, never waved.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 03:31 AM
LMAO You are talking to me about winning.
Here is your quote from the thread where it says Jermaine is out for 2 games.

"I don't care if we win or lose"

Don't talk to me about winning. You pride yourself on hating a team and not hoping for the best. Back on the dark side huh. When did you leave the dark side, you hope for this team to do something bad, so you can write about it in your odd thoughts. You go to games to see if Jamaal Tinsley is not cheering off the bench, not to see the Indiana Pacers win.

Kegboy
12-09-2006, 03:58 AM
As I said to Grace today, I just don't care about Jermaine after the latest round of "Don't call me a Center" bull. I don't not like him, but I wouldn't mind getting rid of him for change sake.

That said Peck, you are going a bit overboard. If you really do want to judge on winning, as opposed to stats, than JO is better than KG and much better than Reef.

Alpolloloco
12-09-2006, 04:04 AM
Great read Peck and I almost agree with every word said in it.

Oh and to Jermaniac ... ooops Dat Dude, I'm anxious to know, will you stay a Pacer fan after your GOD is gone?

Eindar
12-09-2006, 04:27 AM
In a perfect world, JO would get traded to the Warriors, and then virtually everyone on this board would be happy :D

Peck
12-09-2006, 04:39 AM
As I said to Grace today, I just don't care about Jermaine after the latest round of "Don't call me a Center" bull. I don't not like him, but I wouldn't mind getting rid of him for change sake.

That said Peck, you are going a bit overboard. If you really do want to judge on winning, as opposed to stats, than JO is better than KG and much better than Reef.

Either I didn't make this very clear or maybe your thinking what I said to Jermainiac was also meant from above.

I do NOT base who is better based on Wins or losses per say. That certainly is a point to argue home in defense of O'Neal but no that's not what I'm saying at all.

When talking to Jermainiac I just pointed out that he talked about a great stat line that JermaIne would lay down & I would have to suffer. However he never made the point that he would see JermaIne lead the team to victory.

As to me, no. I'm done with him.

Like I said above over the years I was always ok with him at best. But I honestly tried to just let it go.

This year I even suckered myself into believing that things were differant but it blew up in my face.

What he is trying to be cute about with the entire winning thing was from a post I made yesterday that said I was looking forward to seeing the game last night no matter if we won or not.

I was looking forward to seeing the other guys get a chance & to watch a team play a style that frankly I just find more appealing.

Somehow someway ball movement and pick & rolls have become synonomous with Eurpean basketball & I know that you remember not to long ago when that was not only not Euro ball that was Pacers ball.

In fact it was just six short years ago that we used those very tools to advance to the finals. Yet over the last six years isolation basketball has become the standard fare on our team.

I'm sorry I think two things of it.

1. Frankly it's just boring to watch.

2. It's easily defended by good teams.

BTW, half court basketball & isolation basketball are not the same thing.

We never thought of those 90's teams as Showtime but under no circumstance would anybody have considered it isolation ball either.

Peck
12-09-2006, 04:47 AM
LMAO You are talking to me about winning.
Here is your quote from the thread where it says Jermaine is out for 2 games.

"I don't care if we win or lose"

Don't talk to me about winning. You pride yourself on hating a team and not hoping for the best. Back on the dark side huh. When did you leave the dark side, you hope for this team to do something bad, so you can write about it in your odd thoughts. You go to games to see if Jamaal Tinsley is not cheering off the bench, not to see the Indiana Pacers win.

Obviously when I posted my initial post I knew it would draw fire. In fact I've waited for 2-3 weeks to post anything of real substance because frankly if I had done this after the Boston game I would have had to ban myself for violating forum rules.

So I guess that it comes as no great suprise to me that a person who went my Jermainiac would be upset that I said the anything.

I don't blame you for being upset but I can't help the way I feel on this one. I'm not holding J.O. to any higher standard I would anyone else. I hated it when Ron did it, I can't stand Iverson for it, I don't like Bryant for it & here is a shocker for you when Dale made the trade demand you can ask anyone who was on the star at the time, I said I hoped they traded him to the Grizzlies so he could rot in the North west.

I just happen to enjoy a differant style of play than you do. That does not make me evil, nor does it make you evil because you are a fan of a player I consider corrupt.

I'll make you a deal. Everytime you see me type the word JermaIne just think of a shetland poney. Why? Hey no real reason other than they are fun to look at. That way what I say won't be offensive to you.:)

I'm still a Jermainiac fan.

MagicRat
12-09-2006, 09:13 AM
I noticed that too. But the chanting wasn't just limited to Darrell Armstrong. They chanted "Donnie Walsh" for a while, but Walsh, who was sitting next to one of the Simon's, never waved.

Looked like some sort of fraternity group in the last few rows in the corner.

They started with "Lar-ry Bir-ird" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Then they realized he was gone.

Then they moved to "Don-nie Wa-alsh" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Donnie didn't budge, but some guy behind him stood up, turned and waved and got a loud cheer and then "You're not Don-nie" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Then they moved back to "Don-nie Wa-alsh" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Donnie seemed to keep his head down lower than usual when he went for his smoke break at a timeout.

After all this time with no valid responses, they finally hit someone who would immediately acknowledge them with a double behind the head finger-point from the bench: "Dar-rell Arm-strong clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Which then turned into "Your turn Don-nie" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat)

Still nothing.

"Jer-maine O-Neal" clapclap-clapclapclap.(repeat) got them nothing

So they went back to the well with "Put in Dar-rell" clapclap-clapclapclap

And "Rick Car-lisle" clapclap-clapclapclap "Put in Dar-rell" clapclap-clapclapclap.

Of course late in a blowout, he's wasn't coming back.

MagicRat
12-09-2006, 09:44 AM
Oh, and my favorite part of the Horn Guy halftime show was the very end, when he threw his knit cap into the crowd and people dodged it..........:duck:

lumber man
12-09-2006, 09:55 AM
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Moses
12-09-2006, 11:39 AM
I don't think we would have had that offensive lapse in the second quarter if JO was here. The game would have been a complete blowout if JO was playing in my opinion.

This team is playing team-ball even with JO in the lineup. Sure we call a few post plays for JO, but that is just when the offense begins to stall. It's easy to say this team is great when JO is out when Tinsley and Jackson have great games against the worst team in the league..but there is no way we can rely on Tinsley and Jackson's erratic shooting as well as Harrington being our primary scorer. Those guys played a great game, and if they can bring it on a consistent basis, then maybe we do not need JO as much as I think. However, if this game isn't against the worst defensive team in the league..maybe we would not have been as fortunate.

On a side-note, Jack needs to take the ball to the hole every single play unless he's wide open. He displayed some nice slashing skills in the 1st quarter as well as the 3rd and 4th. We got stalled when he started shooting 3's, then we completely blew it when the bench came in for the first time.

3rdStrike
12-09-2006, 01:28 PM
You have some weird obsession with Jermaine O'Neal, fella. Let it go.

Just
12-09-2006, 01:31 PM
Dave the Horn Guy was HORRIBLE!




This team is playing team-ball even with JO in the lineup.

I agree.

I'm starting to like Jack. He takes it to the hole like someone who's gonna punch somebody once he gets there. Now, the scary thing is that he might actually wanna do it, but whatever, I LOVE the way he attacks the basket strong.

I am starting to think that without Artest around to hate, Peck has just moved to the next most likely target. Okay. I'm pretty pleased with Jermaine lately. His passing and defense has improved big time. I also find it hard to believe that SAR was ever this good defensively.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 01:33 PM
All you need to know about Reef is that he only made the playoffs once in his career.

Peck dont care about stats right? So no stats just winning, he has never been a winner that Jermaine has been.

Peck
12-09-2006, 01:44 PM
All you need to know about Reef is that he only made the playoffs once in his career.

Peck dont care about stats right? So no stats just winning, he has never been a winner that Jermaine has been.

Again, did I say that SAR was better than J.O.? No, I did not.

The argument could easily be made that SAR never had the talent around him that J.O. has or that SAR has spent the majority of his career in the West where the competition is much higher. You don't have teams with sub .500 records vying to be at the top of a division in the West & haven't for about 10 years.

J.O. has spent the majority of his career (in fact all of his starting career) in the East. During a time where the East, while having produced a couple of champions, has been less than pathetic.

On this one I'm talking pure & simple player by player comparison of talent.

You can disagree, & I know you will, but I've seen both of them play in their prime & I just don't see that big a differance.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 01:51 PM
You also said Drew Gooden is better then JO in the post, thats all I need to know about you making a comparison of talent.

Destined4Greatness
12-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Moses what in the world would make you think that if we had JO we wouldn't have had that lapse, not like he was tearing it up before this game.

bnd45
12-09-2006, 02:00 PM
JO's game used to drive me insane, but I'll admit that he is critical to this year's team. He's playing as close to unselfish basketball as we'll ever see from him and on the defensive end he's been all over the place. We can't look to just dump the guy unless it nest us KG or Bosh because he's still very talented and contributes to making the Indiana Pacers a relevant team. I'm still skpetical of JO because of all the injuries that hamper him year in and year out.

Peck
12-09-2006, 02:00 PM
Dave the Horn Guy was HORRIBLE!



I agree.

I'm starting to like Jack. He takes it to the hole like someone who's gonna punch somebody once he gets there. Now, the scary thing is that he might actually wanna do it, but whatever, I LOVE the way he attacks the basket strong.

I am starting to think that without Artest around to hate, Peck has just moved to the next most likely target. Okay. I'm pretty pleased with Jermaine lately. His passing and defense has improved big time. I also find it hard to believe that SAR was ever this good defensively.


Totally within reason. However in my defense I feel as though I was pushed.

If you will recall I wrote this post http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26136&highlight=special

In which I sang the praises of O'Neal for what I thought to be a selfless attitude.

Of course my high hopes & dreams came crashing down faster than the titanic when I read this post.
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26272&highlight=special

To which I even said that I hoped what was said wasn't said. But sadly I was wrong.

But even then if that wasn't enough to make my stomach turn, which it was but I tried my darndest to keep it under wraps, I totally lost my mind when I read this from Mark Montieth of all people, who I hardly call a hard hitting dirt digging journalist after the Raptors game.

O'Neal complained to the coaches as he walked to the bench for the timeout that followed Bosh's basket. He got the ball on the first play after the break and drew a foul after rebounding two of his own misses. He hit both foul shots.


Then if that wasn't enough this from JermaIne's own mouth sealed the deal.

"I always want the ball in situations where we need baskets," O'Neal said. "They were playing one-on-one coverage. I fully trust my teammates, but at that particular time, they weren't making shots and if they're not making shots, I want the ball to make things happen."

Oh, btw here is the link to the star site for the above.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061127/SPORTS04/611270410/1088


This brought everything crashing down on me. Everything in the past that I had a problem with came rushing back on me.

Am I a hater? Sure, go ahead & call me that.

But remember you all called me that on Ron as well. I don't just pick a pacer player I want to dislike, it is mostly a character issue & with both of these guys they have character in spades.

Yes, J.O. gives to the poor & the needy I never doubted that as an off court person he is a good guy. However IMO he is no superstar who should be dictating how the team should play.

Again I ask this, if the team were losing & he were getting his touches do you think he would have walked in & demanded that they change the offense away from him? Neither do I.

Peck
12-09-2006, 02:02 PM
You also said Drew Gooden is better then JO in the post, thats all I need to know about you making a comparison of talent.

I think you need to check your reading comprehension. I NEVER once said Drew Gooden was better than J.O.

I said he was on par with him but would not argue against J.O. being listed above him. But I still don't think J.O. is worlds better than Drew.

Just
12-09-2006, 02:06 PM
Yeah, you can find reasons to hate any one player. I think you're over-reacting to a few select incidents here, but that's just my opinion. Watching the games, I haven't seen anything that'd make me want to call JO selfish, or whatever. Your Artest hate was justified, as he obviously had major-league issues. With JO, I think you're reaching a bit... well, reaching a whole lot.

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 02:27 PM
I said he was on par with him but would not argue against J.O. being listed above him. But I still don't think J.O. is worlds better than Drew.

I'm a pretty big Gooden fan, but even I gotta call you on that one. That's just erroneous, Peck.

In other news, I just heard a dude on NBA TV say that we're waiting on an MRI to make sure JO's hammy doesn't have a tear. Has anyone else heard about this? Not good news.

Seed
12-09-2006, 02:29 PM
Peck, first, thanks for the recap. I really missed those odd thoughts.
As for JO, I'm sure that with all criticism, you'd agree he's currently our franchise player. The most important player in the current roster.
I take it you'd make a trade for KG in a heartbeat. I think most fans would (me including). But we'll need more than JO to get it done. How much are you willing to give up?

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 02:41 PM
Why does everything have to deteriorate into I hate JO or I love JO and what not. We are 11-10 almost everyone at the start of the season sounded like they would be pleased at this point in the season in the season. I know some might not be happy with how we got here. I say we focus on the fact that this team is finally gonna be able to possibly play some games at home here with a chance to get on a roll and win some consecutive games. Can we at least wait until the wheels fall off before we start calling for player's heads this season?

Oh and as far as Peck capitalizing the I in Jermaine every time he types it :lmao:

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:18 PM
Yeah, you can find reasons to hate any one player. I think you're over-reacting to a few select incidents here, but that's just my opinion. Watching the games, I haven't seen anything that'd make me want to call JO selfish, or whatever. Your Artest hate was justified, as he obviously had major-league issues. With JO, I think you're reaching a bit... well, reaching a whole lot.

I'm sorry but that part just strikes me funny.:laugh:

I list a number of reasons & none of which apply to anyone else on our team but I can stretch & reach to find a reason.

You can think I'm stretching a lot if you want & hey I can't say I blame you. But time will tell.

Believe me if you think I'm reaching now you should have been around me right after I found out what he said in that locker room meeting. Needless to say I am probably, scratch that, definately d@mned to hell for all of eternity for the cursing tirade I went on.

Also on the Artest front, if you agree I was right about him then you also have to remember I made that decision very early on & it wasn't all of what I was seeing on the floor. I'll say it again, Character.

One bad loss in a season where we have 8 new players 8 games in & we were just at .500% & he decides the entire scheme of things wasn't to his liking.

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:20 PM
Peck, first, thanks for the recap. I really missed those odd thoughts.
As for JO, I'm sure that with all criticism, you'd agree he's currently our franchise player. The most important player in the current roster.
I take it you'd make a trade for KG in a heartbeat. I think most fans would (me including). But we'll need more than JO to get it done. How much are you willing to give up?

To be honest with you I'm not a huge Garnett fan either. But I am willing to think that a change of scenery might not be a bad thing for either player.

I don't think K.G. feels the need to play low post isolation offense as much as J.O. does but to be honest I don't watch a lot of Wolves games so I'll defer to someone else on that.

But to make a trade happen I am willing to part with J.O. & just about any other player not named Harrington to make it happen. For Granger to be involved I'll want something else in return though.

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:24 PM
I'm a pretty big Gooden fan, but even I gotta call you on that one. That's just erroneous, Peck.
In other news, I just heard a dude on NBA TV say that we're waiting on an MRI to make sure JO's hammy doesn't have a tear. Has anyone else heard about this? Not good news.

Really? Erroneous.

Hmmmm... Well let's ask why.

J.O. season stats.

PPG 17.8
RPG 9.9
APG 2.9
SPG .79
BPG 3.05
FG% .458
FT% .714
3P% .000
MPG 35.2


Drews season stats.

PPG 11.2
RPG 8.7
APG .7
SPG .44
BPG .50
FG% .467
FT% .737
3P% .333
MPG 26


Is J.O. really worlds better than Drew? Really?

Again everybody re-read what I'm saying. I am not saying Drew is better than J.O., I am saying that I think Drew is almost as good. Remember J.O. plays almost 10 min. more a game & I suspect touches the ball on offense about 10-15 more times a game so is he really really really all that better than Drew?

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:25 PM
Why does everything have to deteriorate into I hate JO or I love JO and what not. We are 11-10 almost everyone at the start of the season sounded like they would be pleased at this point in the season in the season. I know some might not be happy with how we got here. I say we focus on the fact that this team is finally gonna be able to possibly play some games at home here with a chance to get on a roll and win some consecutive games. Can we at least wait until the wheels fall off before we start calling for player's heads this season?

Oh and as far as Peck capitalizing the I in Jermaine every time he types it :lmao:

Glad someone noticed.;)

PaceBalls
12-09-2006, 03:26 PM
Peck,
I've been reading your thoughts on Jermaine since that Raptors blowout and he went to the management. And while there is alot of things that drive me crazy about JO... like not boxing out, you have to admit he is playing really well this year. I think his post game has really improved as far as passing goes. IF he passes like that I have no problem with alot of plays being called to run through him. Let's say 2/3 of them when he is in the game.

I think you are overreacting a bit to JOs overreaction to suffering a bad defeat from a bad team (toronto, and the subsequent media reports). I don't think it is fair to totally give up on him just on media reports from a reaction from one game. IF he is going to be the leader of the team, he has a responsibility to voice his concerns. I'd rather he give a crap than just sit, say nothing and not care while he feels things are not going the right way.

I do not see JO as a selfish ball player this year. Yeah he is asking for the ball, but is that really a bad thing? Espcecially with some of those nice passes to the cutter. Those are nice talents to use.

JO post play bball doesn't have to suck. It's up to the rest of the team to keep moving with backcuts and screens, keeping themselves open for the dish.

Last year JO post play ball sucked. Because everyone just stood there watching him go 1 vs 4. I don't see that near as much this year.

How about we judge JO on his play not what the media says?

Cheers, I love reading your posts peck. Keep up the good reads

Just
12-09-2006, 03:27 PM
I'm sorry but that part just strikes me funny.:laugh:




That's cool. Your intense hatred for JO also strikes me funny. (:laugh:)

I was just saying that if you really wanted to hate any one player, you could find plenty of reasons to do so. And that is what I think you're doing. It's cool, though. I've done the same with Tinsley and Jack.

I don't think you're right about JO. I think you, on some level, WANT JO to have major issues in the same team-destructive way that Ron did, but he just doesn't.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 03:30 PM
Really? Erroneous.

Hmmmm... Well let's ask why.

J.O. season stats.

PPG 17.8
RPG 9.9
APG 2.9
SPG .79
BPG 3.05
FG% .458
FT% .714
3P% .000
MPG 35.2


Drews season stats.

PPG 11.2
RPG 8.7
APG .7
SPG .44
BPG .50
FG% .467
FT% .737
3P% .333
MPG 26


Is J.O. really worlds better than Drew? Really?

Again everybody re-read what I'm saying. I am not saying Drew is better than J.O., I am saying that I think Drew is almost as good. Remember J.O. plays almost 10 min. more a game & I suspect touches the ball on offense about 10-15 more times a game so is he really really really all that better than Drew?
WORLDS BETTER. I have never seen a team go out and put 2 people on Drew Gooden to stop him because he is such a beast. Stop lying to yourself, thats ugly. He is not close to the players Jermaine is, and you know it. But go on and keep living in this fantasy world of yours where Jermaine isnt any good.

brichard
12-09-2006, 03:32 PM
Unfortunately, due to a combination of a busy work schedule and a fairly apathetic opinion of the current Pacer lineup, I have watched very few games. I've also not been able to surf over here as often.

But when I do... the more things change the more they stay the same. :)

I will say this, whether or not I have watched many games or not, I am watching our record. And our record is just about what it has been for the last several seasons... mediocre. Mediocre is better than terrible, but it also isn't very exciting.

Even JO's staunches supporters have to take a look at what we have been able to achieve with him as the nucleus. Is JO getting incrementally better? Is he making his team better?

The thing that seperates a very talented individual from a championship "difference maker" is his ability in which to raise the level of play of others around him. That has been and will continue to be my biggest criticism of JO.

He is an impressive weapon, and I don't think anybody can argue that. We also would be worse without him. But, are we ever going to win a championship with him?

Peck
12-09-2006, 03:47 PM
WORLDS BETTER. I have never seen a team go out and put 2 people on Drew Gooden to stop him because he is such a beast. Stop lying to yourself, thats ugly. He is not close to the players Jermaine is, and you know it. But go on and keep living in this fantasy world of yours where Jermaine isnt any good.

You madd doggy????

Y the playa hate for D-God????? Step up ur life.

I know deep inside there is a D-God lover in there so free you inhibitions, get into the walla

Holla if u here me!!!!!!

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 03:51 PM
You madd doggy????

Y the playa hate for D-God????? Step up ur life.

I know deep inside there is a D-God lover in there so free you inhibitions, get into the walla

Holla if u here me!!!!!!God bless your heart. I must have hurt your feelings.

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 04:38 PM
Really? Erroneous.

Hmmmm... Well let's ask why.

J.O. season stats.

PPG 17.8
RPG 9.9
APG 2.9
SPG .79
BPG 3.05
FG% .458
FT% .714
3P% .000
MPG 35.2


Drews season stats.

PPG 11.2
RPG 8.7
APG .7
SPG .44
BPG .50
FG% .467
FT% .737
3P% .333
MPG 26


Is J.O. really worlds better than Drew? Really?

Again everybody re-read what I'm saying. I am not saying Drew is better than J.O., I am saying that I think Drew is almost as good. Remember J.O. plays almost 10 min. more a game & I suspect touches the ball on offense about 10-15 more times a game so is he really really really all that better than Drew?

C'Mon, Peck.

I know JO has his major faults just like every other PF in this league not named Tim Duncan.....but do you really think it's pure coincidence that Drew plays only 25 mins per game? When you're having trouble getting minutes because of Anderson Varejao, you are indeed WORLDS worse than a someone who has A) three All-NBA honors (two 3rds and a 2nd) and five All Star game appareances; B) three years in the top five in the NBA in blocks (including the overall League leader in 2001); C) four years in the top 10 in overall rebounds.

Talk about JO's durability. Talk about JO holding the ball too much. Talk about how players defer to him too much. Talk about leadership if you must.

But don't start bringing Drew Gooden comparisons into the conversation. It's not close and you (hafta) know it.

Peck
12-09-2006, 04:46 PM
C'Mon, Peck.

I know JO has his major faults just like every other PF in this league not named Tim Duncan.....but do you really think it's pure coincidence that Drew plays only 25 mins per game? When you're having trouble getting minutes because of Anderson Varejao, you are indeed WORLDS worse than a someone who has A) three All-NBA honors (two 3rds and a 2nd) and five All Star game appareances; B) three years in the top five in the NBA in blocks (including the overall League leader in 2001); C) four years in the top 10 in overall rebounds.

Talk about JO's durability. Talk about JO holding the ball too much. Talk about how players defer to him too much. Talk about leadership if you must.

But don't start bringing Drew Gooden comparisons into the conversation. It's not close and you (hafta) know it.


I must be speaking in latin or something.

I have never said that Gooden was better. But I just don't think J.O. is all that better.

You can make a valid argument about the min. on the floor thing though. But if I talk about all of those other things you brought up how can I not compare it to Gooden in all of this. Since players defer to J.O. all of the time can it be argued that he gets 5-6 more shots a game? Thus his hole whopping 3 more made baskets a game?

Drews rebounding has dropped off since I first made that comparison but still one less board a game in 10 less min.

Again I ask, is he really that much better?

I think since day one here J.O. has been told he was going to be the franchise because we had nothing else to offer the world. To his credit he took advantage of that.

Drew is on a team and part of a machine.

Shade
12-09-2006, 05:07 PM
The problem concerning JO and the Pacers is pretty simple, really. We're trying to run superstar plays...and JO is not a superstar.

Don't get me wrong, he's a very good player, but he's not on the same level as a Kobe or Wade or even Iverson. If JO were our second-best player, we'd be all set. In fact, when Ron was here, JO WAS our second-best player. And that's when we were close to being title contenders. Unfortunately, having a superstar who's a bonehead is no better than trying to run superstar plays for a regular star player.

Just
12-09-2006, 06:15 PM
I must be speaking in latin or something.

I have never said that Gooden was better.



:hmm:

Nothing Redd said warranted this kind of response, as he was just refuting your assertion that Gooden is almost as good as JO.

Peck, I think you're blinded to the point of becoming irrational. I'm not sure why you hate JO so much, but it is getting kind of goofy. Jermaine O'Neal being MUCH, MUCH better than someone like Drew Gooden is about as close as you can come to something being a clear-cut FACT in this league, and the fact that you're disputing it has me kinda worried, man....

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 06:43 PM
I must be speaking in latin or something.


Again I ask, is he really that much better?




To answer your question:

YES, YES, YES and YES.....

Jermaine O'Neal is THAT much better than Drew Gooden and has been in every possible understanding of the word better throughout his career (aside from in the NCAA, that is).

The one place where your "really that much better?" argument applies would be rebounding---specifically offensive rebounding. Drew has always been a terrific offensive rebounder and more than adaquete on the defensive glass as well. But, I'd argue that big reason Drew's offensive board numbers are so superior is because he has spent much of his time on the weakside snatching up misses from Big Z and Juwan Howard. It's a lot harder to concentrate on getting offensive boards when you're the focus of the offense and taking as many shots as JO. Great offensive rebounders are almost always less-essential offensive guys, as is Gooden.

Essentially, Drew Gooden is a poor-man's Horace Grant
And essentially, JO is a poor-man's Kevin Garnett

I'm not even a huge JO supporter. And I'm probably one of the bigger Drew Gooden backers as far as "those who have no rational reason to care about the guy" are concerned.

But this debate is absurd. You know who these two guys are. And you are reeeeeaaaaaaacccccching on this one.

Peck
12-09-2006, 09:00 PM
The problem concerning JO and the Pacers is pretty simple, really. We're trying to run superstar plays...and JO is not a superstar.

Don't get me wrong, he's a very good player, but he's not on the same level as a Kobe or Wade or even Iverson. If JO were our second-best player, we'd be all set. In fact, when Ron was here, JO WAS our second-best player. And that's when we were close to being title contenders. Unfortunately, having a superstar who's a bonehead is no better than trying to run superstar plays for a regular star player.

Well leave it to Shade to have to come in & clean up my mess.

This is exactly the right answer without all of the bile & hatred that I was uttering.

To use a DC analogy (forgive me Scott) J.O. would be a good Robin to someones Batman.

However I think J.O. envisions himself more along the lines of the all-father Odin.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 09:18 PM
Looking great tonight, thank God, Jermaine isnt playing. I havent enjoyed a basketball game like this since we beat the Pistons in game won of the ECF.

Arcadian
12-09-2006, 09:22 PM
I'd like to know how many superstars make their teams true title contenders without a second all star?

I don't know about all this Batman and Robin but the reality is the Pacers overall talent level isn't good enough top be contenders. Replace JO with any player and we still wouldn't be contenders.

sixthman
12-10-2006, 12:16 AM
Take JO out of our lineup and we have no interior defense whatsover.

I sympathize with the thought that running the offense through JO all the time is not pretty to watch and will not take us close to a championship, but it was also awful tonight watching our lack of interior defense. We were not nearly big enough or good enough tonight to compete with the Cavs on the inside.

Big Smooth
12-10-2006, 12:31 AM
The problem concerning JO and the Pacers is pretty simple, really. We're trying to run superstar plays...and JO is not a superstar.

Don't get me wrong, he's a very good player, but he's not on the same level as a Kobe or Wade or even Iverson. If JO were our second-best player, we'd be all set. In fact, when Ron was here, JO WAS our second-best player. And that's when we were close to being title contenders. Unfortunately, having a superstar who's a bonehead is no better than trying to run superstar plays for a regular star player.

Amen. JO is nowhere near SUPERSTAR status.

BlueNGold
12-10-2006, 12:39 AM
I'd like to know how many superstars make their teams true title contenders without a second all star?

I don't know about all this Batman and Robin but the reality is the Pacers overall talent level isn't good enough top be contenders. Replace JO with any player and we still wouldn't be contenders.

JO IS Robin and Batman retired a couple years ago...and is working as an analyst.

But you are right, it would take more than replacing JO with just about anyone except Lebron James. Our main problem is a poor strategy and a string of bad personnel decisions.

Arcadian
12-10-2006, 12:45 AM
Also big men are always under-appreciated.

Just
12-10-2006, 01:08 AM
Well leave it to Shade to have to come in & clean up my mess.

This is exactly the right answer without all of the bile & hatred that I was uttering.

To use a DC analogy (forgive me Scott) J.O. would be a good Robin to someones Batman.

However I think J.O. envisions himself more along the lines of the all-father Odin.

Hopefully JO is soon the Robin to Iverson's Batman. :) :pray:




Ooh.... just thought of this: Then we can win it all with two players that you can't stand. ;) Just kidding there, of course. :-p

R-R
12-10-2006, 05:07 AM
Excuse me, did I miss something?

I love Jermanine very much and think he is a very good player, but of course I know he is not as great as Tim Duncan. And if there are fans who think J.O. is not better than Gooden or Rahim, it doesn't matter for me. Although I don't agree with them, that's their opinion. I respect that.

But, in my opinion, even if it's Tim Duncan, any players shouldn't be given a right to DEMAND to change the style of the team. To say just his opinion, I think that's OK. Jermaine could say his when he feeled the style was the problem, and at least it's his right.

And Rick, or Larry and Donny had their rights to disagree with him when they feeled his opinion was wrong or not good for the team. Then why should they be FORCED to obey J.O.?? Why couldn't they disagree with him and couldn't they persuade him to figure better conclusion? It was their job, wasn't it?

I'm not saying J.O.'s expressing his feeling in an emotional way was best thing he could do. But he was not only person to be blamed. If Rick, Larry and Donny blindly obeyed him and it caused the team going into wrong direction, it was their fault too.

It was not about whether J.O. is great player or not. Even if that was Tim Duncan, I think Popovich shouldn't allow him to DEMAND to change the style of the team. Coach should tell it his player, it's coach's job.

Anyway, I agree with Burtrem Redneck. We never know what was really going on in the lockerroom from what based on just some comments on media. Maybe J.O. really DEMANDed to adjust the team to his comfortable style and not cared what was good for the team, but who knows? Maybe he just wanted to win and honestly wanted to say something what he thought the best way for the team was, although it might not be a perfect opinion. There are nothing to prove J.O. is not a selfish player, but nothing to prove he is selfish either.

Sorry for my poor English. If there are error on spelling or grammer, please let me know... I am willing to learn. :blush: ;)

Eindar
12-10-2006, 05:35 AM
So then we all agree that JO needs another all-star caliber player in order for us to win a title. Hmmm, I wonder where we could find an all-star player for below market value?

indygeezer
12-10-2006, 08:23 AM
So then we all agree that JO needs another all-star caliber player in order for us to win a title. Hmmm, I wonder where we could find an all-star player for below market value?

I thought Al Harrington was supposed to be this "be-all-end-all" that was needed to compliment JO. At least that was what was being shoved down my throat this past summer by people that disagreed with me. What happend to that?

JayRedd
12-10-2006, 03:12 PM
Sorry for my poor English. If there are error on spelling or grammer, please let me know... I am willing to learn. :blush: ;)

Your English is better than most. Don't worry about it. And while we're at it, so is your posting. Do it more often.

R-R
12-11-2006, 07:17 AM
Your English is better than most. Don't worry about it. And while we're at it, so is your posting. Do it more often.

Thank you. :blush::blush::blush: Your words encouraged me.
Actually, the biggest problem on my English skill is, I'm a desperately slow writer... :dead:

Just
12-11-2006, 10:23 AM
Your English is better than most. Don't worry about it. And while we're at it, so is your posting. Do it more often.

Agreed.

sixthman
12-11-2006, 03:25 PM
Thank you. :blush::blush::blush: Your words encouraged me.
Actually, the biggest problem on my English skill is, I'm a desperately slow writer... :dead:

Practice will make perfect. I find the Google spell checker helpful.

You know how to bang out those smilies, so you're most of the way there already as a poster.

You are doing great.

RWB
12-11-2006, 03:38 PM
I thought Al Harrington was supposed to be this "be-all-end-all" that was needed to compliment JO. At least that was what was being shoved down my throat this past summer by people that disagreed with me. What happend to that?

Geez, have you been disappointed in Al's play? I for one have not. What I remember people saying is Al would be a decent pickup at a fair price.

Don't hurt me we're still friends, but tell your buddy Cato the Colts need some real help on their D. ;)

Israfan
12-11-2006, 03:48 PM
I'm not crazy JO fan and don't hate him either.

He is what he is. He is not superb passer and rebounder but excellent scorer and shot blocker. He is fast but thin even for PF. He has excellent moves and his shot is OK. He is what most people here think he is - Robin. If he would add one of the things - passing or rebounds and mature, he would become Batman. I guess he can add passing with experience.

Is this enough to be a franchise player? For some teams, yes. For mediocre teams that unfortunately Pacers are right now.

R-R
12-12-2006, 03:42 AM
Is this enough to be a franchise player? For some teams, yes. For mediocre teams that unfortunately Pacers are right now.

Sadly, it's true. I have to admit at present.

I also admit Jermanine is not a type of player who completely suits the style of teamball. I understand some fans are frustrated by the fact (and by his emotional attitude sometimes).

But I think J.O. has tried to adjust himself. I believe at least he's tried, although he still needs much more effort. That's why his passing skill is improving, I believe.

I think it's natural way that any player who believe he can help his team wants to play in his comfortable style. I can't blame him for that only. And if it is not good way for the team, coaches should tell him, make him understand what the better way is. As I said before, it's coaches' job.

Don't get me wrong, I am always a big fan of Peck's post. This is rare case I couldn't agree with you, but anyway... ;)

By the way, I thank the posters who gave me encouragement. It helps me a lot. Thanks again. :wave: