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Slick Pinkham
12-08-2006, 09:16 AM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12082006/sports/bad_answer_sports_peter_vecsey.htm?page=0

Bad Answer
IVERSON ON WAY OUT OF PHILLY
by Peter Vecsey

December 8, 2006 -- THE Allen Iverson Period in Philadelphia is rapidly dragging to an undignified conclusion.

According to two agents whose clients play for the 76ers, Iverson went to team president Billy King this past Tuesday and demanded to be traded, something he professed repeatedly over the years he'd never do.

According to two general managers King contacted yesterday, the 76ers are aggressively attempting to accommodate their forlorn franchise player, whose prohibitive salary (currently $17.1 million with $19M and $20.8M remaining) makes him a difficult sell despite a 31-point average - at least if the Sixers hope to harvest relatively equal value.

At the same time, emphasized one of those GMs: "A.I. is not the only player Billy is looking to move. His second breath is about Chris Webber." And that's not where the conversation stops.

Everybody is gladly available. Andre Iguodala or Sam Dalembert may have to be surrendered in order to move Webber ($20.7M/22.3M next season) or A.I. "But the big push is on to deal Iverson."

That's not solely because he wants out, but because his attitude leaves management no other option. If he were going along with the program, the 76ers would hide and wait for the right opening.

The night after filing for divorce, Iverson essentially put his effort on cruise control in Chicago as the Bulls exterminated the 76ers, 121-94, vaulting to a 39-16 first-quarter spread and winning the subsequent three.

Imagine how competitive it would've been had the Sixers not held a team meeting that afternoon.

A convulsive back was cited as the explanation for Iverson's 25-point (7-17) seven-assist, seven-turnover, defensively-felonious performance. Don't be foolish enough to fall for it. Or Maurice Cheeks' counterfeit contention the 76ers' spirit is "still there," players "still are trying" and "no one has given up."

Iverson, indeed, gave up. "If you know your leader doesn't care, how are we supposed to play with the guy?" steamed a teammate to his agent.

According to the same agent, Iverson told King he likes Cheeks as a person "but not as a coach." In other words, "either he goes or I go."

Despite numerous people in Philadelphia and Portland (where Cheeks coached for three seasons and 55 games) believing Maurice is overmatched on the sidelines, he has the full support of Chairman Ed Snider and King.

As yet another GM points out: "The [76ers] didn't make the playoffs last year and didn't do anything of consequence during the offseason to improve. Regardless of what you may think of Cheeks' coaching acumen, how can be his fault?"

Iverson may not blame Cheeks for the 76ers' worst record in the Atlantic Division, but there's no question they've got differences that aren't going away. One of them pertains to Iverson's lack of attention to detail, lack of respect for authority and unwillingness to practice hard.

Following a conflict at workout last week, Iverson stormed out of the building. That evening he failed to show for a mandatory team function for corporate sponsors and prime season ticket holders.

The announced reason was "after-effects of dental surgery." One of the aforementioned agents contends Iverson told teammates earlier in the day he planned to blow off the event and was simply going to take the fine. For whatever it's worth, Iverson apologized to everyone he stiffed.

Last but certainly not least, it's time to try to figure out Iverson's destination. That is, if it's humanely possible to re-route him. I have to believe there are plenty of teams that would take the plunge because they're desperate for help in the stands, as well as the standings . . . as long as the cost isn't excessive. All it takes is one.

Eliminate the Knicks from the git-go; there's not a chowder clam's chance of the 76ers taking Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis off Isiah Thomas' Dead Sea payroll.

Why wouldn't the staggering Celtics still be interested? The 76ers can do a lot worse than accept several of their young players along with, say, chronically injured Theo Ratliff, who would be allowed to retire gracefully.

The Hawks, too, possess a surplus of young talent at several positions, though the startling play of Tyronn Lue is packing them in (four sellouts in eight home games) so far.

Denver's George Karl expressed interest at one point last season. Andre Miller, Linas Kleiza and Joe Smith might pique the 76ers' interest.

Or how great would it be to see Iverson and Kevin Garnett paired in Minnesota, giving them the opportunity to win their first championship in concert. That way the 76ers could acquire Randy Foye, the object of their affections last June (in Celtics trade talk) and maybe Mike James. That way Minnesota could dump a particularly burdensome contract or two, either Marko Jaric or Troy Hudson.

The Pacers, too, are looking to do something big, reveals a league source. Larry Bird is unhappy with his team's chemistry, meaning Stephen Jackson and Jamaal Tinsley aren't fitting into Rick Carlisle's system. Another $4M-to-$5M piece would have to be included.

peter.vecsey@nypost.com

aero
12-08-2006, 09:18 AM
Stephen Jackson and Jamaal Tinsley and maybe Harrison for Iverson ?

SOLD where do i sign ?

edit: after doing a trade check it looks like that deal wouldnt work...hmmm...ahh well

edit 2: im guessing if a trade were to happen it would involve a 3rd team ?

Quis
12-08-2006, 09:19 AM
Thats way too good to be true. Although I'm not a huge fan of Iverson and I don't think he'd mix well with Al & JO, getting that quality of talent would be too good to pass up.

ssmall
12-08-2006, 09:32 AM
I don't like Iverson. I don't think he would improve chemistry.

Skaut_Ech
12-08-2006, 09:58 AM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="500"><tbody><tr><td class="title_bl">Indiana Trade Breakdown</td></tr><tr><td class="body_bl_np" width="100%"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">Outgoing</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/ONeal_Jermaine_ind.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Jackson_Stephen_ind.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Stephen Jackson
6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
16.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 2.8 apg in 35.9 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Tinsley_Jamaal_ind.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes</td></tr><tr> <td colspan="2" class="title_dt">Incoming</td></tr> <tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Iverson_Allen_phi.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Dalembert_Samuel_phi.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes</td></tr><tr><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="75">http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Randolph_Shavlik_phi.jpg</td><td class="tdpad" valign="top" width="425">Shavlik Randolph
6-10 PF from Duke
2.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8.6 minutes</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="title_gr">
</td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table>Successful Scenario

I don't see any way a trade with us could work without some real financial wrangling and a third, desperate team as a partner.

That's the best team-to-team trade I could come up with, not that I would do it. No way would I want Iverson here.

Interesting story, but won't affect us one bit.

Alpolloloco
12-08-2006, 10:05 AM
Big Al
Jackowacko
Mel Mel

for

AI
Jones
#2nd pick 2007

works in the trade checker!

We could pair AI with Saras (or Daniels) in the backcourt, and still have a frontcourt of Danger, JO and Feisty.

Unclebuck
12-08-2006, 10:15 AM
I consider the stuff on Iverson to be completely separate from the stuff on the Pacers. In other words, I don't think the Pacers will even inquire into what it would take to get Iverson.

But it is intersting that the Pacers are looking to do something big.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-08-2006, 10:16 AM
Iverson is certainly an exciting player with unquestionable talent. My concern is how would he fit in with JO & Al. I know alot of people just don't like Jamaal and Stephen but you can't deny their talent either. Iverson is 31 years old. He's a ballhog. He shoots .421 from the field for his career. He averages 23 shots a game for his career. He has no three point shot, .309 for career. He also makes the news just as often for off court/nonperformance reasons as he does for his play. At this price, I'd have to say pass.

Putnam
12-08-2006, 10:21 AM
....Iverson's lack of attention to detail, lack of respect for authority and unwillingness to practice hard.

Include me out. The Pacers must improve their consistency, and that means discipline. Talent alone is not going to help. This means no to Iverson, and no to any other wild talent grabs that may be contemplated, whether they work in the Trade checker or not, unless the player acquired is a good citizen.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-08-2006, 10:32 AM
Another thing, if you held the rights to Allen Iverson wouldn't you want more in return than the players I'd expect the Pacers to be willing to part with. The way our roster is currently contructed, we can't afford to give up any big guys. Outside of JO,Al & Foster, I'm not comfortable riding any of the other guys for 25+ minutes a game. At the point we have Jamaal & Runi past that I'm not comfortable with the game of Armstong or Greene for 25+ either. There is an overflow at the swingman (2/3) position with Jack, Daniels, Marshall, Granger and Runi can play the 2 while Al can play the 3. I think that's where you'll see movement. It won't be for AI though. I think you'll see a couple of those guys + maybe a big we aren't using sent packing for a big (5) we will use.

Destined4Greatness
12-08-2006, 10:33 AM
JO for AI straight up, nothing else.

AI
Jack
Granger
Al
Foster

^ Not sure if its a better team but its more balanced, plus AI's insanely stupid deal is slightly better than JO's insanely stupid deal.

BTW I know it ain't going to happen

BlueNGold
12-08-2006, 10:43 AM
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=500 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=title_bl>Indiana Trade Breakdown</TD></TR><TR><TD class=body_bl_np width="100%"><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=title_dt colSpan=2>Outgoing</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/ONeal_Jermaine_ind.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Jackson_Stephen_ind.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Stephen Jackson
6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
16.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 2.8 apg in 35.9 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Tinsley_Jamaal_ind.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=title_dt colSpan=2>Incoming</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Iverson_Allen_phi.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Dalembert_Samuel_phi.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=75>http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Randolph_Shavlik_phi.jpg</TD><TD class=tdpad vAlign=top width=425>Shavlik Randolph
6-10 PF from Duke
2.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 8.6 minutes
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=title_gr colSpan=2>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Successful Scenario

I don't see any way a trade with us could work without some real financial wrangling and a third, desperate team as a partner.

That's the best team-to-team trade I could come up with, not that I would do it. No way would I want Iverson here.

Interesting story, but won't affect us one bit.

That would be a pretty fair trade. We need AI's quickness and shooting...and particularly his ability to hit in the clutch. We need Sam's toughness and interior presence. We already have a good PF in Harrington who does many of the same things as JO. We need Granger to start. We have Quis who can start at SG....and with AI our perimeter game just got a boost. The only concern would be AI's age...but he's only 3 years older than JO, while Sam is 3 years younger. I think we would be a more dangerous team with AI.

Destined4Greatness
12-08-2006, 11:08 AM
Did I just hear AI and clutch in the same sentence without the word, Isn't. Maybe my definition of clutch is warped by having reggie around, but IMO a guy that doesn't hit his first game winning shot till he is 30, Isn't clutch.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-08-2006, 11:20 AM
You're willing to trade three starters for AI? Not just three starters but our current franchise player and the starting point guard and starting shooting guard.

Slick Pinkham
12-08-2006, 11:57 AM
This looks like a fit for Danny Ainge. I could see the C's dangling a package including a lot of youth (Jefferson or Gomes or Perkins, Delonte West, perhaps Gerald Green) and some salary ballast like Theo Ratliff or Sczerbiak and some mid-level guys like Scalabrine to make the numbers work, and draft picks too.

An AI/ Paul Pierce backcourt would be pretty scary.

Doc Rivers needs to be fired first, though.

Evan_The_Dude
12-08-2006, 12:13 PM
I was just thinking something the other day. In the offseason we got more athletic at every position, except for at point guard. I think Iverson is exactly the type of player we need. It would give us a go-to guy in crunch time, a strong defender, a playmaker, and the athleticism we need at that position. I'm not Iversons biggest fan, but having him on this team would certainly help push the tempo we're trying to run. Not to mention it would sell more tickets.

However I agree that the Pacers mention seems to be seperate from the Iverson part. I'm glad TPTB have gone against the patience policy of past years and took notice to the fact that something needs to be done NOW.

ajbry
12-08-2006, 12:37 PM
The Pacers, too, are looking to do something big, reveals a league source. Larry Bird is unhappy with his team's chemistry, meaning Stephen Jackson and Jamaal Tinsley aren't fitting into Rick Carlisle's system. Another $4M-to-$5M piece would have to be included.

Nobody else feels this was an extrapolation on Vescey's part? Bird certainly could be "unhappy with his team's chemistry," but the part about Jack and Tinsley is added by Vescey, not as what Bird could have inferred.

Either way, I find it disconcerting that some of you are just ready to ship out JO and sing the praises of AI. I don't think it would be a good trade.

Alpolloloco
12-08-2006, 12:50 PM
Nobody else feels this was an extrapolation on Vescey's part? Bird certainly could be "unhappy with his team's chemistry," but the part about Jack and Tinsley is added by Vescey, not as what Bird could have inferred.

Either way, I find it disconcerting that some of you are just ready to ship out JO and sing the praises of AI. I don't think it would be a good trade.

I for sure won't trade JO for AI, Jackson + Tinsley on the other hand?

Slick Pinkham
12-08-2006, 12:52 PM
I would not want to trade JO for AI.

Anything else, fine.

But Philly wouldn't want anything else. Tinsley? Please. Jackson? Give me a break. they want young talent and draft picks. Granger/Harrison/Marshall would be a start but not nearly enough-- not even close.

Putnam
12-08-2006, 01:00 PM
Nobody else feels this was an extrapolation on Vescey's part? Bird certainly could be "unhappy with his team's chemistry," but the part about Jack and Tinsley is added by Vescey, not as what Bird could have implied.

Fixed. The speaker implies. The listener infers.

I doubt Bird would have revealed this much information to Vecsey or anyone else, so it probably is an extrapolation. But it could be the truth, even if Vecsey inferred it.

imawhat
12-08-2006, 01:20 PM
Has to be an assumption. Vescey always comes up with wild information, so it's nothing new there.


*edit*

I'd take Iverson for our guys. I'm not much of an Iverson fan, but I think he'd be an improvement. (btw, while we're assuming, I'm assuming Daniels would fit that third person description. The salary's right, and he's been in the "doghouse" already).

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 01:46 PM
I would endorse a Jack, Tins, Feisty for AI trade if Philly would do it. AI has got a ton of heart and is one of my favorite players, but that is not to say he doesn't have his downfalls.

Destined4Greatness
12-08-2006, 01:48 PM
I would endorse a Jack, Tins, Feisty for AI trade if Philly would do it. AI has got a ton of heart and is one of my favorite players, but that is not to say he doesn't have his downfalls.

Man people have some wierd opinions. I don't care how hard a guy tries for 48 minutes, if he skips out of practice to go to Taco bell. He does not have tons of heart, he has tons of talent, theres a difference.

_PD_
12-08-2006, 01:51 PM
This is NOT going to happen.
Criminy, let's see here, we have at least two players on this team who are borderline dissatisfied with their touches, we already have a gangster image we're trying very hard to squelch, and people moan that RC doesn't have control over his team.
And we're going to add WHO to this mix? We MIGHT temporarily sell a few more tickets, but then AI will pull an AI and the midwestern sense of values will kick in. What a joke.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 01:53 PM
Man people have some wierd opinions. I don't care how hard a guy tries for 48 minutes, if he skips out of practice to go to Taco bell. He does not have tons of heart, he has tons of talent, theres a difference.

Oh please anyone who questions Iverson's desire doesn't watch the games. Like I said he has his downfalls, he gets frustrated easily but the man wants to win.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 01:55 PM
This is NOT going to happen.
Criminy, let's see here, we have at least two players on this team who are borderline dissatisfied with their touches, we already have a gangster image we're trying very hard to squelch, and people moan that RC doesn't have control over his team.
And we're going to add WHO to this mix? We MIGHT temporarily sell a few more tickets, but then AI will pull an AI and the midwestern sense of values will kick in. What a joke.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

WTH is a pulling an AI? Leading a mediocre cast to the NBA finals in watered down Eastern conference? If so sign me up. He has already done it once.

Peck
12-08-2006, 01:56 PM
The one really good thing about bringing Iverson to our team would be that I could save a ton of money & time till he either retired or moved on.

I do not one to trade one prima dona for another (one that is actually worse).

I'd rather watch a lineup of Jalen Rose, Travis Best, Jermaine O'neal, Ron Artest & James Edwards before I would want to see Iverson on our team.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 02:05 PM
In conspiracy theorist news JO and AI are both sitting out tonight's games for what I would describe as ticky tack injuries...(Not saying I endorse said conspiracy theory just stirring the pot)

3rdStrike
12-08-2006, 02:05 PM
You're willing to trade three starters for AI? Not just three starters but our current franchise player and the starting point guard and starting shooting guard.


Yeah, there's no way I'd consider the deal until the 76'ers pony up at least one 1st round pick. At which point I'd sign on the dotted line ASAP.

But color me excited that the Pacers are apparently looking to make big changes. Apart from possibly Iverson, I would hope that any trade they make is to get younger and/or get back into the draft.

ABADays
12-08-2006, 02:11 PM
Pick up Iverson? Hm - after 39 years as a fan it might be time for me to hang it up.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 02:16 PM
Pick up Iverson? Hm - after 39 years as a fan it might be time for me to hang it up.

When did Allen Iverson become the most hated man in Indiana? Is it because he has tattoos and wears cornrows and doesn't look like a lot of people here? Uh oh I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying it but 99% of honest people know its true. Hell I sat next to some guy at the IU games against WIU that was worshiping Eric Suhr and booing DJ White and Rod Wilmont cause they are useless lazy bums. What a fine state I call home.:rolleyes:

Destined4Greatness
12-08-2006, 02:20 PM
Oh please anyone who questions Iverson's desire doesn't watch the games. Like I said he has his downfalls, he gets frustrated easily but the man wants to win.

Having the will to win is very different from having the will to prepare to win. because, We talkin bout practice.

Isaac
12-08-2006, 02:24 PM
If we could team JO/AI and AL somehow I would jump at it in a second. .

We'd be title contenders immidiately.

Destined4Greatness
12-08-2006, 02:26 PM
If we could team JO/AI and AL somehow I would jump at it in a second. .

We'd be title contenders immidiately.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Philly fans said the same crap when Webber came to town. So does AI come with a League mandate saying JO and AI can each have their own ball.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 02:26 PM
Question: Would you give up Granger to get AI to team with JO and Al?

I don't know if I would, I'd have to think about it though.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 02:28 PM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Philly fans said the same crap when Webber came to town. So does AI come with a League mandate saying JO and AI can each have their own ball.

Webber was what 3,4,5 years older than JO is when he arrived in Philly? He was obviously on the decline. JO may not be getting better, but I don't think hes declining. Though the JO and AI ball sharing thing could be interesting if they are both indeed that selfish.

Gyron
12-08-2006, 02:29 PM
I agree with ABA, Iverson is not someone I want on my team.....Maybe I need to go buy some bobcats merchandise. At least they expect to lose......

odeez
12-08-2006, 02:30 PM
Hey bring Iverson in if you can. That would mean we are trying to win now. I have to say that appeals to me. Iverson does take too many many shots, but I can live with it.

Isaac
12-08-2006, 02:32 PM
Question: Would you give up Granger to get AI to team with JO and Al?

I don't know if I would, I'd have to think about it though.

Same here, it is a difficult decision. I wouldn't want to put AI at point guard, but a PG like Jamaal and AI wouldn't mix. I think I would trade Jamaal and Al along with any of our younger guys like Powell/Marshall/Harrison/Greene before I traded Granger, but I don't think Philly takes that trade.

I think it will take Philly a long time to trade Allen because they will be looking for more in return then they'll get. It will be similar to the Ron situation in the sense that they'll get someone that has been a good player but has run his course somewhere as well. Maybe an AI for Rashard Lewis swap would be possible.

Moses
12-08-2006, 02:42 PM
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Philly fans said the same crap when Webber came to town. So does AI come with a League mandate saying JO and AI can each have their own ball.
Webber didn't lose just 1 step, he lost 4 after his injury. If we could get JO, Al, and AI on the same team, we'd be favorites to win the east by a mile.

Naptown_Seth
12-08-2006, 02:44 PM
Include me out. The Pacers must improve their consistency, and that means discipline. Talent alone is not going to help. This means no to Iverson, and no to any other wild talent grabs that may be contemplated, whether they work in the Trade checker or not, unless the player acquired is a good citizen.
I agree.

Talented player who is sick of the coach, sick of the system, and willing to let those feelings bleed out onto his on-court performance. Isn't the cited problem with Jack and Tinsley all about attitude and effort? Is there a single Jack/Tins hater that says "oh, they are great guys and try hard, they just aren't that talented?"



As Buck said, it is more interesting to hear that Bird is still looking to deal. Then again its not that surprising. The on-court chemistry did struggle to get going and naturally Bird would have started to get concerned. The counter to that is that he might change his mind as it comes together, which since the Foster switch it has. This was further increased with the introduction of Baston into regular minutes.

The effort fell off the plate to end the road trip, but it was back for the Magic game.

I think a couple of more good effort outings will put trade talks on the back-burner, or at worst into "feeler-only" mode. You gotta keep appraised of the actual worth of your roster, but that's not the same as making a deal.


Honestly isn't a lot of this VULTURES talking? Someone wants KG moved - hey, how about the Pacers, they've fallen to 500. Sam Smith wants to make the Bulls better, trade JO to the Bulls and go into rebuild mode (um, Sam, how about suggesting that to the struggling Bulls instead).


Right now it seems like people are equating the 61 win team with now and seeing it as a team in decline. This isn't the 2000 Finals team getting a bit long in the tooth, this is a VERY young squad. They just overhauled the bench.

The top 6 minutes guys from last year...
Jack (still here, now the #2 minutes guy)
Beetlejuice (gone)
Fred (gone)
JO (still here, now the #1 guy)
Danny (still here, #3)
Foster (still here, #6)
Saras (still here, #8)

Special note that Peja was the #1 minutes per game guy while he was with the team (as was Ron), but techically only played 1400+ with Indy which made him the #8 total minutes played guy. He's gone too of course.

So the team lost 2 of their top 3 minutes guys, PLUS their #1 MPG guy (Peja). What's here now? Of the top 10 guys in minutes played this year, 4 are new. If you go to 11 with Baston (who is starting to play a lot) you increase it to 5. 2 more of those players were rookies last year.

The returning players from the 61 win team that have been here the whole way are - JO, Tinsley, Foster. Al left and just returned, Jack spent a good portion of his first year suspended and of course wasn't on the 61 win team anyway.

I don't see decline. I see tons of injuries and HUGE turnover the last 2-3 seasons. Even with Al back you only have 4 players from the ECF team just 3 seasons ago.

BTW the 61 win team started out 14-2 and then went on a 6 game west coast trip starting on the last day of NOV, paired with a 3 game trip a few weeks later in mid-DEC. Their record in this span? 7-8. Just something to think about.


Anyway, to these outside writers it's somehow a team that has "gone as far as it can" with JO. To me it's a team that hardly got out of the pits before the engine blew. I'm kinda interested to see what the car can do with a new engine in it before giving up on it.

Putnam
12-08-2006, 02:48 PM
When did Allen Iverson become the most hated man in Indiana? Is it because he has tattoos and wears cornrows and doesn't look like a lot of people here? Uh oh I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying it but 99% of honest people know its true.


We like Marquis Daniels.

Maybe, just maybe, we are judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 02:52 PM
We like Marquis Daniels.

Maybe, just maybe, we are judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

Really past few Pacers games I have been too Quis hasn't exactly gotten a warm reception. Lets be honest when Sarunas and Foster come in they consistently get standing ovations. Everybody else is hit or miss at best.

bulldog
12-08-2006, 02:54 PM
We like Marquis Daniels.

Maybe, just maybe, we are judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

True.


Question: Would you give up Granger to get AI to team with JO and Al?

I don't know if I would, I'd have to think about it though.

You're kidding, right? In you wildest dreams, could you imagine Granger becoming half the player Iverson is?

Listen, I understand you folks don't like the practice comments and all that. But he comes to play hard every night and throws his body around with no regard for his own safety. You can't deny his will to win. He's no angel, but that's enough for me.

Teaming up Al, JO, and AI is such a no brainer I can't believe we're even having this discussion. Only problem is, there is no player on our roster the sixers would take in exchange for Iverson.

McKeyFan
12-08-2006, 02:57 PM
When did Allen Iverson become the most hated man in Indiana? Is it because he has tattoos and wears cornrows and doesn't look like a lot of people here? Uh oh I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying it but 99% of honest people know its true. Hell I sat next to some guy at the IU games against WIU that was worshiping Eric Suhr and booing DJ White and Rod Wilmont cause they are useless lazy bums. What a fine state I call home.:rolleyes:

Ummm . . . corn rows, mohawks, or tattoos can be attributed to Ben Wallace, Al Harrington, Shaq, Rip Hamilton, and hosts of others.

Character, dude. Discipline, integrity, reliability, moral terpitude, basic human decency, selflessness.

rexnom
12-08-2006, 03:10 PM
I don't think AI would be a good fit. We need backcourt help, true, but AI is not really the kind of backcourt help we need.

Also, why are we giving up on this team so early? Can we give them a chance?

Bball
12-08-2006, 03:18 PM
Leaving the issue whether I want AI as a Pacer aside... Does anyone really think if we were to acquire AI, and not use JO to do it, that AI and JO could coexist on the same team? No friggin' way. ...And I'd think management would realize that too. At least I'd hope they would.

Is AI going to be happy feeding the post? Is JO going to be happy if AI doesn't look to feed the post nearly every trip?

-Bball

imawhat
12-08-2006, 03:28 PM
If we were to consider SJax, Tinsley, and AI equal in terms of attitude, then what exactly would we be losing if we were to do that trade?


I see a bigger gain than loss.

TheDon
12-08-2006, 03:49 PM
We talkin bout practice.


:rotflmao:

that was funny D4G, I remember when Iverson went off on the media about that cracked me up. They recently had it on BDSSP 50 Greatest something's can't remember but he just kept goin off on the media " we talkin about practice....we talkin about practice...." I think he said it like 15 times.

Phildog
12-08-2006, 04:10 PM
AI plays D though...he's always getting steals. I'd take him as my starting point over Tinsley any day of the week, and to give up Jack, who cares at this point? His future is up in the air anyways. I don't think Philly does it, but those who say they don't want AI apparently don't want any superstar on this team, cuz he's one of the best.

pizza guy
12-08-2006, 04:15 PM
So, we're discussing one of the top ten, at least, players in the league...tell me again what keeps you from doing this? If there were ANY way to get JO and AI on the same team (Al or not), you do it. Can they co-exist? I guess I can't tell for sure. But, IMO, having those two players, plus anyone alive and intelligent (not name Artest) would make us instant favorites.

If it's possible, DO THIS!

TheDon
12-08-2006, 04:16 PM
Honestly If we could get AI on our team for Jackson and Tinsley I would do it. What's not to like? he's averaging about 7-8 assists(same amount as Tinsley dishes out) a game, 2 steals a game(perimeter defense we desperately need), and is averaging 31.3 ppg(Scoring would increase) on about 20 shots attempts... Jackson's shot attempts plus Tinsley's would be about the same amount as AI attempts in a game. I know the argument of intangibles is there and stats don't tell the whole story but I know AI and have seen AI will his team to victory on quite a few occasions. I don't think they're going to get "equal value" for a player which is now known to the league that doesn't want to be in philly any longer.

I think the whole argument about AI being a thug or not wanting to win is ridiculous. He hasn't rushed into any stands lately, shot a gun at a strip club in the dead of night(In Jack's defense thoug he is going about things much better this season ever since that incident).

I think the whole opinion on AI if we were to get him would greatly depend on whether or not we were winning, if we were winning a lot of our games I guarantee a vast majority of the Pacers fans could care less what he does. I agree with what someone said on this board earlier, I'm tired of hearing about talent, potential, and future we've been riding that boat for almost 7-8 years now.

I just want this team to win a championship, I'm so tired of hearing about Indiana teams choking when it matters the most, or the fact that we're constantly reminded by other fans we don't have a championship. I've been with the pacers and colts through horrible horrible seasons and regardless of whether or not we come together and do some great things this season or any other I'll still always enjoy watching the Pacers and Colts.

indygeezer
12-08-2006, 04:23 PM
Really past few Pacers games I have been too Quis hasn't exactly gotten a warm reception. Lets be honest when Sarunas and Foster come in they consistently get standing ovations. Everybody else is hit or miss at best.

Reggie Miller
Heywood Workman
Dale Davis
Antonio Davis
Clark Kellogg
Chuck Person
Johnny Davis

Shall I go on?

People are entitled to dislike whoever they wish.

pizza guy
12-08-2006, 05:03 PM
Reggie Miller
Heywood Workman
Dale Davis
Antonio Davis
Clark Kellogg
Chuck Person
Johnny Davis

Shall I go on?

People are entitled to dislike whoever they wish.

Extremely good point here, geeze. While I'm sure it exists, racism is not a widespread problem here. Sarunas and Foster get big ovations because there is absolutely no question that they leave it on the floor. They come out and bust balls, trying to do what they can for the team, and in Indiana that gets you a lot more applause than just scoring does. Jackson, Tinsley, and even 'Quis sometimes, have a tendency to look disinterested--like they don't care--and that is the quickest way to the doghouse. If Foster went out and tried on a couple plays, but dogged it on others, I'm sure he'd get the same critism as anyone who has a better tan. ;)

maragin
12-08-2006, 05:07 PM
It's a reach, but if we could swing a deal for both AI's (Iverson and Iguodala) trading something like Tinsley, Jackson, Harrison, and another (Daniels?)... I'd be very intrigued. Of course, Iguodala is to Philly what Granger is to Indy.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 05:11 PM
True.



You're kidding, right? In you wildest dreams, could you imagine Granger becoming half the player Iverson is?

Listen, I understand you folks don't like the practice comments and all that. But he comes to play hard every night and throws his body around with no regard for his own safety. You can't deny his will to win. He's no angel, but that's enough for me.

Teaming up Al, JO, and AI is such a no brainer I can't believe we're even having this discussion. Only problem is, there is no player on our roster the sixers would take in exchange for Iverson.

Bulldog I am all for obtaining AI. I merely was wondering what people think of Danny vs. AI for the long term of the team. I don't think its extremely cut and dry either way.

Sollozzo
12-08-2006, 05:14 PM
Webber was what 3,4,5 years older than JO is when he arrived in Philly? He was obviously on the decline. JO may not be getting better, but I don't think hes declining. Though the JO and AI ball sharing thing could be interesting if they are both indeed that selfish.

Let's look at Webber's stats last year and compare them to JO's in 05-06.

Webber: 75 GP 20.2 PPG 9.9 RPG 3.4 AST .8 BPG .434 FG %

JO: 51 GP 20.1 PPG 9.3 RPG 2.6AST 2.3BPG .472 FG %


Not much difference in their stats, and Webber played 24 more games.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 05:17 PM
Ummm . . . corn rows, mohawks, or tattoos can be attributed to Ben Wallace, Al Harrington, Shaq, Rip Hamilton, and hosts of others.

Character, dude. Discipline, integrity, reliability, moral terpitude, basic human decency, selflessness.

Well then you are judging a man by a microscope he is placed under and if that is how you judge human beings be my guest. Personally I give a benefit of the doubt to just about anyone. I have my opinion on why Iverson is looked upon as such a pariah and you have yours. Personally I think it could probably go either way. I don't really want to turn this into a racial thread. However for anyone that thinks this isn't major issue as to why some people in this state dislike JO, Jack et. al. I would suggest nothing better than to attend a game in a town like Danville, Crawfordsville or Lebanon in which a city team from INdy travels out there for what is supposed to be a friendly HS game of Bball and you will hear things that will turn your ears.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 05:19 PM
Let's look at Webber's stats last year and compare them to JO's in 05-06.

Webber: 75 GP 20.2 PPG 9.9 RPG 3.4 AST .8 BPG .434 FG %

JO: 51 GP 20.1 PPG 9.3 RPG 2.6AST 2.3BPG .472 FG %


Not much difference in their stats, and Webber played 24 more games.

And as we all know stats tell the whole story as to how a player impacts the game.:rolleyes:

Slick Pinkham
12-08-2006, 05:24 PM
Until his microfracture, Chris Webber was far better than JO has ever been or will ever be, and by a pretty wide margin.

but C-Webb on one leg has slipped below JO.

ABADays
12-08-2006, 05:28 PM
When did Allen Iverson become the most hated man in Indiana? Is it because he has tattoos and wears cornrows and doesn't look like a lot of people here? Uh oh I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying it but 99% of honest people know its true. Hell I sat next to some guy at the IU games against WIU that was worshiping Eric Suhr and booing DJ White and Rod Wilmont cause they are useless lazy bums. What a fine state I call home.:rolleyes:

Talk about reading something that wasn't there - good Lord. Be sure to read some of the previous posts. In your detective work you will find my reasoning.

Now Rip Hamilton, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

Sollozzo
12-08-2006, 05:32 PM
And as we all know stats tell the whole story as to how a player impacts the game.:rolleyes:



OK, please tell me then how JO impacts the game in ways Webber does not.

Peck
12-08-2006, 05:35 PM
Well then you are judging a man by a microscope he is placed under and if that is how you judge human beings be my guest. Personally I give a benefit of the doubt to just about anyone. I have my opinion on why Iverson is looked upon as such a pariah and you have yours. Personally I think it could probably go either way. I don't really want to turn this into a racial thread. However for anyone that thinks this isn't major issue as to why some people in this state dislike JO, Jack et. al. I would suggest nothing better than to attend a game in a town like Danville, Crawfordsville or Lebanon in which a city team from INdy travels out there for what is supposed to be a friendly HS game of Bball and you will hear things that will turn your ears.


After reading your first line I kept looking for the purple font.:) (sorry old joke from the digest just in case you don't get the ref.)

Anyone would be a fool to deny that there recism present & even I who don't like any of the players you just mentioned have to admit that there are some who do believe what you are saying.

But I also wonder if maybe you aren't also a little guilty of painting with a broad brush.

I dislike O'Neal, Iverson & to a much lesser extent Jackson (well in fact I really don't care about Jackson one way or the other so he doesn't count) but it has nothig to do with corn rows, tats, color of skin or anything like that.

It has everything to do with a "me" attitude that just does not appeal to me on any level.

Reggie Miller had tatoo's, in fact he had a huge one on his back.

Ben Wallace on occasion has corn rows.

I like both of those players.

Now as to the towns you are talking about, um I happen to work in all of them & live in one of them so I can say with an open mind, what????

There are racist in those towns no doubt, but there are some in downtown Indy as well.

Quis
12-08-2006, 05:36 PM
Let's look at Webber's stats last year and compare them to JO's in 05-06.

Webber: 75 GP 20.2 PPG 9.9 RPG 3.4 AST .8 BPG .434 FG %

JO: 51 GP 20.1 PPG 9.3 RPG 2.6AST 2.3BPG .472 FG %


Not much difference in their stats, and Webber played 24 more games.

Difference is, JO is a top-tier defender, whereas Webber is a bottom-tier defender. Quite a big gap, no? Of course defense doesn't matter since it doesn't make the Sportscenter highlights....

pizza guy
12-08-2006, 05:37 PM
OK, please tell me then how JO impacts the game in ways Webber does not.

Defense, drawing double and triple teams, and not calling timeouts when you don't have any (ok, so the last one was just thrown in for fun).

AesopRockOn
12-08-2006, 05:43 PM
Watching AI and KG trying to get along in Minny would definitely be a show worth watching.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 05:48 PM
Talk about reading something that wasn't there - good Lord. Be sure to read some of the previous posts. In your detective work you will find my reasoning.

Now Rip Hamilton, I'd take him in a heartbeat.

So wait, Iverson is soooo bad, that he is able to stop 39 years of loyalty to a team? I repeat what I said earlier when did he become the most hated man in Indiana?

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 05:51 PM
After reading your first line I kept looking for the purple font.:) (sorry old joke from the digest just in case you don't get the ref.)

Anyone would be a fool to deny that there recism present & even I who don't like any of the players you just mentioned have to admit that there are some who do believe what you are saying.

But I also wonder if maybe you aren't also a little guilty of painting with a broad brush.

I dislike O'Neal, Iverson & to a much lesser extent Jackson (well in fact I really don't care about Jackson one way or the other so he doesn't count) but it has nothig to do with corn rows, tats, color of skin or anything like that.

It has everything to do with a "me" attitude that just does not appeal to me on any level.

Reggie Miller had tatoo's, in fact he had a huge one on his back.

Ben Wallace on occasion has corn rows.

I like both of those players.

Now as to the towns you are talking about, um I happen to work in all of them & live in one of them so I can say with an open mind, what????

There are racist in those towns no doubt, but there are some in downtown Indy as well.

Peck, it is possible you and I have seen different sides of the towns. I am not trying to call everyone in those cities a racist even if that is how it may have come out. I do know that I have heard more racial slurs in the basketball gymnasiums of Danville and Lebanon than in the rest of my life combined. I heard things come out of students mouths at those schools as recently as last year that made me upset to call myself a Hoosier.

ABADays
12-08-2006, 06:01 PM
So wait, Iverson is soooo bad, that he is able to stop 39 years of loyalty to a team? I repeat what I said earlier when did he become the most hated man in Indiana?

No - he would just be the ultimate last straw in a series of last straws.

Will Galen
12-08-2006, 06:27 PM
I don't like Iverson, but he is a great ball player. For the latter reason I think it would be a no brainer to trade Jax, Tins, and say Daniels for him. I would do it with the expectation that he would be great trade bait next summer.

Shade
12-08-2006, 06:39 PM
I am not an AI fan by any stretch of the imagination, but a Tins/Jack/anybody but JO, Al, or Danny (and maybe Foster and Quis) package is worth considering. A Foster/JO/Al/Quis/AI frontcourt, especially in the East, would be scary if the chemistry came together.

If it didn't work out, you can just blow the whole thing up in the offseason and have a pair of franchise players up fro grabs. That should net you one new franchise player and at least one more really good player.

aceace
12-08-2006, 06:49 PM
Iverson is still a very good player. He's seen his better days though. I can't see anyone giving up too much due to his massive contract. Philly will be lucky to get one good player. I expect them to at least take back one bad contract with whoever they get. I would have no problem with AI coming here for the right price. I would not trade JO,Al,Tinsley,Foster,Granger. AI may have a few skeletons in the closet but he is nothing as far as a head case compared to Jax and Artest. Philly is looking to start over and they need to get rid of AI and Webber. It will be interesting to see if they can do it. We have played 13 of our first 20 on the road and sport a 10-10 record. I said if we were 11-9 I would consider that acceptable due to our road games. Were close, lots of new players still trying to find themselves. I'm not ready for drastic moves yet.

If philly does trade AI - I will bet my last dollar it is to the Knicks for Marbury + someone.

GY!BE
12-08-2006, 06:58 PM
So wait, Iverson is soooo bad, that he is able to stop 39 years of loyalty to a team? I repeat what I said earlier when did he become the most hated man in Indiana?

What kills me is when people say things like that. So you'd be willing to abandon a team that's about as important to you as church is to some, all because a player you don't like joined them...BEFORE HE HAS EVEN PLAYED A GAME!

Here's a scenerio I present. Lets say the Pacers aquire AI. All these, loyal, dedicated, and "intelligent" pacers fans abandon ship. Because surely, what could a player like AI bring to the table. But then lets say the Pacers rattle off a ten win streak, and start making headway for 1st place in the East. Surely these dedicated and mature fans would stick to their guns. I really doubt that they would start to take back everything bad they said about AI. Oh god, and can you imagine how terrible they would feel if AI actually led the Pacers to a championship? I mean, could you just imagine how foolish they would feel for abandoning ship before even giving him a fair chance? But surely these people are didicated, and ernest people, and would never recind on something like that. Surely they would stick to their guns, and continue rooting for the Bobcats or whoever, even though their former team goes all the way to the championship.

For those of you too dense to understand what I am saying. Don't abandon ship before you know for a fact it is sinking, and secondly, don't act like for a minute that you wouldn't come crawling back to the Pacers if they started succeeding with AI.

Unclebuck
12-08-2006, 07:03 PM
I don't know which thread to post this in, so I'm posting it here.

Did anyone else hear Bob Kravitz on WIBC last night - they were talking about what we expect from our media and he admitted that he regularily reads the message boards. And he said the Pacers Management is very open and honest and that DW is great to work with, but the Colts are secretive and a little paranoid

Will Galen
12-08-2006, 07:05 PM
For those of you too dense to understand what I am saying. Don't abandon ship before you know for a fact it is sinking, and secondly, don't act like for a minute that you wouldn't come crawling back to the Pacers if they started succeeding with AI.

There are people with the courage of their convictions you know! Some people would do exactly what they said they would do. I will agree that most would come back though. Actually most would never leave like they say they would, they would give it a chance.

GY!BE
12-08-2006, 07:11 PM
There are people with the courage of their convictions you know! Some people would do exactly what they said they would do. I will agree that most would come back.

I'm sure a small percentage would, but the majority would take the Pacers back with open arms, screaming "You know I've always loved you baby!"

And for those few that "have courage and conviction"...well it doesn't make sense to me. Why would you abandon this team because a player you don't like joined them, before even giving him a chance. I mean, it just seems silly. And I think the temptation to go back would be astronomical if they started to succeed. I mean...it just doesn't seem logical.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 07:14 PM
I don't know which thread to post this in, so I'm posting it here.

Did anyone else hear Bob Kravitz on WIBC last night - they were talking about what we expect from our media and he admitted that he regularily reads the message boards. And he said the Pacers Management is very open and honest and that DW is great to work with, but the Colts are secretive and a little paranoid

Interesting although I can't say I am really surprised.

NorCal_Pacerfan
12-08-2006, 07:14 PM
Iverson is great and all, but he seems to be a solo flyer. At this point I wouldn't want him in a Pacers uni.

Will Galen
12-08-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm sure a small percentage would, but the majority would take the Pacers back with open arms, screaming "You know I've always loved you baby!"

And for those few that "have courage and conviction"...well it doesn't make sense to me. Why would you abandon this team because a player you don't like joined them, before even giving him a chance. I mean, it just seems silly. And I think the temptation to go back would be astronomical if they started to succeed. I mean...it just doesn't seem logical.

Would you drink a 12 oz. glass of water if just a tiny little drop of poison was added to it? Of course not, nobody would.

It's the same with players. Certain ones are just poison to some fans, and they spoil the whole team for them, just like a drop of poison.

CableKC
12-08-2006, 07:20 PM
Hmmm....Deja Vu.....I'm waitng for Iverson to show up on some Philly Sports show saying that he doesn't expect to be in a Sixer uniform anytime soon.

Jimmy
12-08-2006, 07:24 PM
Well all I know is he needs to keep playing because he is on my fantasy team!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way my fantasy team is ridiculous
Iverson
Carter
Rashard
Dirk
Eddy curry now (he is tearing it up as of late) gasol later
Joe Johnson
Artest
Kevin Martin
Tony Parker
Keep in mind our league only has 8 teams now

GY!BE
12-08-2006, 07:35 PM
B
Would you drink a 12 oz. glass of water if just a tiny little drop of poison was added to it? Of course not, nobody would.

It's the same with players. Certain ones are just poison to some fans, and they spoil the whole team for them, just like a drop of poison.

But that's just it. No one can say for sure that AI is a "poison". Yea, he might be a poison to the Sixers, but the team dynamics, players, coaches, management is all different here in Indy. Maybe he'll be a poison, maybe he won't. But that's why he is considered a risk.

Let me use a different annalogy, one that I think is more applicable to this situation.

You're stuck in a rut. You have an ok job that pays decently, but isn't really anything you enjoy. Now you've always had a passion for the theatre, but you have never had the time to pursue your interest in it.

Suddenly, a job offer comes up. You'd be working with the theatre. Everything is dependant on you. Not only is your pay dependant, but so is everyone under you, and the whole theatre itself. If you fail, then everyone goes down with you. This has the potential to be your dream job, or it can ruin you.

Do you stay with your run of the mill job that you kind of dislike, and the pay is adaquit, or do you take the chance to do something you love and be successful, but have the possibility of failing terribly. Sure you're run of the mill job may work out. Maybe you'll get a promotion in 5 or so years...or maybe you'll be stuck in the same possition, feeling just as...mediocre as possible.

That is how I see the AI situation. As for me, I'm tired of this "dead end job". I am ready for a change, and am willing to risk it all to get to the championship. If the Pacers were to fail, I wouldn't hold it against them. I would commend them on taking the risk.

PaceBalls
12-08-2006, 07:47 PM
B

But that's just it. No one can say for sure that AI is a "poison". Yea, he might be a poison to the Sixers, but the team dynamics, players, coaches, management is all different here in Indy. Maybe he'll be a poison, maybe he won't. But that's why he is considered a risk.

Let me use a different annalogy, one that I think is more applicable to this situation.

You're stuck in a rut. You have an ok job that pays decently, but isn't really anything you enjoy. Now you've always had a passion for the theatre, but you have never had the time to pursue your interest in it.

Suddenly, a job offer comes up. You'd be working with the theatre. Everything is dependant on you. Not only is your pay dependant, but so is everyone under you, and the whole theatre itself. If you fail, then everyone goes down with you. This has the potential to be your dream job, or it can ruin you.

Do you stay with your run of the mill job that you kind of dislike, and the pay is adaquit, or do you take the chance to do something you love and be successful, but have the possibility of failing terribly. Sure you're run of the mill job may work out. Maybe you'll get a promotion in 5 or so years...or maybe you'll be stuck in the same possition, feeling just as...mediocre as possible.

That is how I see the AI situation. As for me, I'm tired of this "dead end job". I am ready for a change, and am willing to risk it all to get to the championship. If the Pacers were to fail, I wouldn't hold it against them. I would commend them on taking the risk.

Why would any team trade their best players and take on 20million each year for 3 years on a risk? I sure as hell would hold it against them! Ron Artest was a risk... but he was paid alot less!

you dont do a deal like that unless its someone who is a sure fire bet.

GY!BE
12-08-2006, 07:54 PM
Who said anything like trading our best players? We would probably keep JO, and either Granger or Harrington. That means we are giving up only 1 of our 2nd and 3rd best players.

AI is top 10 player in the league. Plus, his and JO's contracts end right around the same time, giving up the option to blow up this experiment if this doesn't work.

I'm tired of the pacers being mediocre. I'm tired of these 45 win seasons of the past couple years. I want to go to the finals, and I want to win. I can't see us winning with this current lineup, but I do see at least the possibility of it happening with JO, AI and co.

ABADays
12-08-2006, 07:55 PM
What kills me is when people say things like that. So you'd be willing to abandon a team that's about as important to you as church is to some, all because a player you don't like joined them...BEFORE HE HAS EVEN PLAYED A GAME!

Here's a scenerio I present. Lets say the Pacers aquire AI. All these, loyal, dedicated, and "intelligent" pacers fans abandon ship. Because surely, what could a player like AI bring to the table. But then lets say the Pacers rattle off a ten win streak, and start making headway for 1st place in the East. Surely these dedicated and mature fans would stick to their guns. I really doubt that they would start to take back everything bad they said about AI. Oh god, and can you imagine how terrible they would feel if AI actually led the Pacers to a championship? I mean, could you just imagine how foolish they would feel for abandoning ship before even giving him a fair chance? But surely these people are didicated, and ernest people, and would never recind on something like that. Surely they would stick to their guns, and continue rooting for the Bobcats or whoever, even though their former team goes all the way to the championship.

For those of you too dense to understand what I am saying. Don't abandon ship before you know for a fact it is sinking, and secondly, don't act like for a minute that you wouldn't come crawling back to the Pacers if they started succeeding with AI.

I grew up a Dallas Cowboy fan - I mean from Day 1 when they went 0-11-1. I may have been the biggest fan on earth. If I couldn't get the games on TV I would call my Dad long distance and have him set the telephone down by the radio.

Huge fan right?

Then came dumping on Landry followed the coach I hated most in football - Jimmy Johnson. Oops - then Johnson was followed by the coach I REALLY hated the most - Barry Switzer. Thug players began to filter in replacing the likes of Staubach, Lilly, Howley, Hill, Pearson. I dumped them. This was not the kind of team to get my support. Sure, they won Super Bowls after that. Didn't mean squat to me. I had the Super Bowls with the GUYS who I felt deserved my support.

The Pacers have been infiltrated. Sure, they might go on a 20-game win streak with AI, sweep to the NBA Finals - win the first NBA title. Know what. Again, it wouldn't mean squat to me. It would never measure up to the guys who won the 3 ABA titles. Right guys, playing the right way.

Did I make a difference to the Cowboys? NO. Would I make a difference to the Pacers? NO. It's a matter of choice to me and I would be making mine. I will say this, if I quit following the Pacers I would quit following the NBA.

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 07:59 PM
I honestly just don't believe AI is that bad of a dude at all. I think he is at least real and honest and that is about as important in this day and age as anything.

CableKC
12-08-2006, 08:05 PM
Its nice to speculate....but it won't happen. If Iverson couldn't get along with Cheeks or Larry Brown....what hope do we have of him getting along with Carlisle?

ALF68
12-08-2006, 08:07 PM
AI, hell no!

maragin
12-08-2006, 08:08 PM
Its nice to speculate....but it won't happen. If Iverson couldn't get along with Cheeks or Larry Brown....what hope do we have of him getting along with Carlisle?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Iverson respected and liked Brown as a coach IIRC.

(I could easily be wrong on this)

Tyrion
12-08-2006, 08:13 PM
Curious how many people who don't want AI because of attitude would want Vince Carter now, and conversely during his last year in Toronto. AI is one of only a few players that can totally dominate a game for good or ill.

I can't stand Jackson or Tinsley, but they are mid-level talents at best. For a talent like AI (or Artest for me...God, I miss him), I can put up with a lot.

Will Galen
12-08-2006, 08:21 PM
B

But that's just it. No one can say for sure that AI is a "poison". Yea, he might be a poison to the Sixers, but the team dynamics, players, coaches, management is all different here in Indy. Maybe he'll be a poison, maybe he won't. But that's why he is considered a risk.

Let me use a different annalogy, one that I think is more applicable to this situation.

You're stuck in a rut. You have an ok job that pays decently, but isn't really anything you enjoy. Now you've always had a passion for the theatre, but you have never had the time to pursue your interest in it. Suddenly, a job offer comes up. You'd be working with the theatre. Everything is dependant on you. Not only is your pay dependant, but so is everyone under you, and the whole theatre itself. If you fail, then everyone goes down with you. This has the potential to be your dream job, or it can ruin you.

Do you stay with your run of the mill job that you kind of dislike, and the pay is adaquit, or do you take the chance to do something you love and be successful, but have the possibility of failing terribly. Sure you're run of the mill job may work out. Maybe you'll get a promotion in 5 or so years...or maybe you'll be stuck in the same possition, feeling just as...mediocre as possible.

That is how I see the AI situation. As for me, I'm tired of this "dead end job". I am ready for a change, and am willing to risk it all to get to the championship. If the Pacers were to fail, I wouldn't hold it against them. I would commend them on taking the risk.

As you said that's how you see the situation. Myself, as I said before I don't care for Iverson, however I would give him a chance. But again everybody doesn't have my view or your view. Right or wrong, to some fan's he's poison and he would poison the Pacers for them no matter how long they have been a fan.

Some people already don't like Pacer management and some of the players. The only player the Pacers have right now that is almost universally liked is Danny Granger. So say the Pacers included Danny Granger in a trade for Iverson, that would be the last straw for some people no matter how long they have been a fan. It would be like a divorce. EDIT; See ABADays above.

GY!BE
12-08-2006, 09:34 PM
I grew up a Dallas Cowboy fan - I mean from Day 1 when they went 0-11-1. I may have been the biggest fan on earth. If I couldn't get the games on TV I would call my Dad long distance and have him set the telephone down by the phone.

Huge fan right?

Then came dumping on Landry followed the coach I hated most in football - Jimmy Johnson. Oops - then Johnson was followed by the coach I REALLY hated the most - Barry Switzer. Thug players began to filter in replacing the likes of Staubach, Lilly, Howley, Hill, Pearson. I dumped them. This was not the kind of team to get my support. Sure, they won Super Bowls after that. Didn't mean squat to me. I had the Super Bowls with the GUYS who I felt deserved my support.

The Pacers have been infiltrated. Sure, they might go on a 20-game win streak with AI, sweep to the NBA Finals - win the first NBA title. Know what. Again, it wouldn't mean squat to me. It would never measure up to the guys who won the 3 ABA titles. Right guys, playing the right way.

Did I make a difference to the Cowboys? NO. Would I make a difference to the Pacers? NO. It's a matter of choice to me and I would be making mine. I will say this, if I quit following the Pacers I would quit following the NBA.

I guess when you boil it down, I just don't see the point in abandoning the team before AI has even done anything (if he joins the team). Let him come here, and if he causes problems, then that's fine. Go ahead and leave, you have every right too. But I don't see the point in not even giving him a chance.

PacerFreak31
12-08-2006, 09:43 PM
It's funny that we are talking about trading Tinsley and SJ and both just lead us back from being 11 points down to at this point having a 4 point lead with 3:30 to go in the 3rd. I would like to get Iverson but I would first see whom else we might be able to get. Or if nothing else maybe be part of a 3 team trade with Philly, that doesn't bring AI here but another good talent.

Jermaniac
12-08-2006, 10:32 PM
During the halftime of the Pacers game I turned to ESPN and Jim Gray said he talked to AI and AI told him "I hope the deal thats in the works with Minnesota goes through"

Unclebuck
12-08-2006, 10:39 PM
Sixers owner confirmed that AI asked for a trade and that AI has played his last game in a Sixers uniform.

Jermaniac
12-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Its going to be

Philadelphia Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes
Incoming

Randy Foye
6-3 from Villanova
No games yet played in 2005/06

Mark Blount
7-0 C from Pittsburgh
11.3 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.7 minutes

Troy Hudson
6-1 PG from Southern Illinois
9.5 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.1 minutes
Change in team outlook: -12.2 ppg, +2.5 rpg, and -3.3 apg.

Minnesota Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Randy Foye
6-3 from Villanova
No games yet played in 2005/06

Mark Blount
7-0 C from Pittsburgh
11.3 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.2 apg in 27.7 minutes

Troy Hudson
6-1 PG from Southern Illinois
9.5 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.1 minutes
Incoming

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes
Change in team outlook: +12.2 ppg, -2.5 rpg, and +3.3 apg.


Successful Scenario
Due to Philadelphia and Minnesota being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Philadelphia and Minnesota had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

I put money on it

BlueNGold
12-08-2006, 10:51 PM
During the halftime of the Pacers game I turned to ESPN and Jim Gray said he talked to AI and AI told him "I hope the deal thats in the works with Minnesota goes through"

MN gets a lot better with that trade. I don't see that Philly needs anyone from that trade except Foye..who is unproven.

Jermaniac
12-08-2006, 10:54 PM
Maybe its Ricky Davis instead of Troy Hudson

Shade
12-08-2006, 10:58 PM
So, does anyone think a team with KG and AI is a title contender? That could potentially be a better 1-2 punch than Shaq and Wade.

Shade
12-08-2006, 11:01 PM
Hold the phone! Jim Gray just reported that he got duped, it wasn't AI that said he wants to go to Minny, but an imposter. :laugh:

rexnom
12-08-2006, 11:01 PM
Wow...the West would get even better...

Unclebuck
12-08-2006, 11:01 PM
During the halftime of the Pacers game I turned to ESPN and Jim Gray said he talked to AI and AI told him "I hope the deal thats in the works with Minnesota goes through"



Jim Gray just said the guy who he spoke with was not Iverson but an imposter - Jim admitted he was duped.

Very strange

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 11:03 PM
Jim Gray should be fired. What a moron. He screwed up the Artest trade like 15 times too. He looked like he was gonna cry. :lmao:

Jermaniac
12-08-2006, 11:06 PM
Jim Gray just said the guy who he spoke with was not Iverson but an imposter - Jim admitted he was duped.

Very strangeThats the stupidest thing I ever heard. How do you talk to the wrong guy. Wow.

pizza guy
12-08-2006, 11:25 PM
Jim Gray just said the guy who he spoke with was not Iverson but an imposter - Jim admitted he was duped.

Very strange

You. Must. Be. Joking.

How...? I'm not even going to try to figure this out...he's ALLEN IVERSON, not Joe Schmoe...wouldn't you know? wow...

ABADays
12-08-2006, 11:29 PM
A certain career ending interview.

Unclebuck
12-08-2006, 11:31 PM
You. Must. Be. Joking.

How...? I'm not even going to try to figure this out...he's ALLEN IVERSON, not Joe Schmoe...wouldn't you know? wow...

Part of me thinks that maybe Iverson's agent "cut some type of deal with Jim" and in fact Jim did speak with Allen.
Reason I think this is worth mentioning is Jim reported that Allen told him he hopes the T-Wolves trade is completed and maybe the agent is worried the deal might fall through if Allen is on the record as wanting it - so the agent told Jim to say he was duped and the agent gave Jim something in return.

Just a theory

Shade
12-08-2006, 11:33 PM
Part of me thinks that maybe Iverson's agent "cut some type of deal with Jim" and in fact Jim did speak with Allen.
Reason I think this is worth mentioning is Jim reported that Allen told him he hopes the T-Wolves trade is completed and maybe the agent is worried the deal might fall through if Allen is on the record as wanting it - so the agent told Jim to say he was duped and the agent gave Jim something in return.

Just a theory

If that were true and ESPN found out, he would be *****canned hella fast.

pizza guy
12-08-2006, 11:39 PM
If that were true and ESPN found out, he would be *****canned hella fast.

yup. this is really weird, no matter what the explanantion is.

Kid Minneapolis
12-08-2006, 11:39 PM
Hm, a lot of negativity from people about Iverson, and all I can say is, I don't think anyone's really paid attention lately.. besides this latest trade demand, he's actually grown up a lot over the last few years. The "practice, talkin 'bout practice" thing happened years ago, when yes Iverson was a young ignorant naive little punk. People *do* grow up though.

In case a lot of you didn't know, he just filed for divorce, and he's a very emotional guy naturally, so he's probly not in the most stable frames of mind right now. Coming from a RL perspective, this looks an awful lot like someone who needs a change of scenery and is at a crossroads in his life. Getting a divorce can be a draining and frustrating situation.

He's still one of the most amazing players in this league, and I think he's still got 4-5 years ahead of him at this production level. He would definitely "stir the pot" of this stagnant Pacer's offensive soup, and I think would really open things up. When watching our offense, they stand around a lot, as if they're just waiting for someone to do something. Iverson does stuff. A lot of our guys are reactionaries... not "initiators" as the oh-so-wise Isiah used to say. :D Iverson is an initiator though... his place is to create offense where there is none, and I think that's the biggest reason for his low shooting percentage -- you often see his missed shots get easily put back by his teammates, and you sometimes wonder if that wasn't partially by design.

I think a combo of Iverson and JO would be fairly devastating. JO needs someone like Iverson to stir up the paint and draw people out. JO would feast off those Iverson double-teams.

Granger would be a nice fit too, although I seem to gather that a lot of people think Granger is the future of this franchise, and to that I say --- "ya right". I think he's a fine young player, but this isn't a person of leadership abilities, a leading role, a #1 guy... he's just not that. He's a role player, albeit a very good one, and someone you want to have on your team, but I seriously think people are going down the wrong road if you're thinking to groom Granger into a leading man type role. Just ain't gonna happen.

Put me down as being interested in seeing Iverson come here. I wouldn't wanna give up JO for him though. Jack and Tins --- why not. Don't really wanna see Foster go either, though. Maybe some cash, or a mysterious trade exemption will surface. :D

Trader Joe
12-08-2006, 11:39 PM
Gray's doing his last NBA game as we speak...Its kind of weird to watch someone's career go down in flames. Either way at some point tonight Gray screwed up royally.

hoopsforlife
12-08-2006, 11:55 PM
I, for one, will not miss those horrendous suits he wears.

Shade
12-09-2006, 12:07 AM
I don't think Gray will get fired for this. This is BSPN we're talking about here. If they fired someone every time they were inaccurate or duped, they wouldn't have any reporters left.

BlueNGold
12-09-2006, 12:13 AM
I cannot imagine him saying that unless AI really said it...and the imposter thing is a joke.

...and I cannot imagine AI saying that to spread misinformation. You don't work out a deal with team 1 by saying you would rather play for team 2.

So, I think this thing has legs.

Unclebuck
12-09-2006, 12:23 AM
Halftime will be in about 10 minutes - 11:35 - should be interesting

beast23
12-09-2006, 12:24 AM
Sure, go ahead and pick up Iverson.

What the hell? Why not p!!ss off the vast majority of ticket-buying fans even more than they already are by being shackled with Tinsley and Jackson.

Do we really have to revisit this topic every 4-5 months or so?

I would seriously recommend that folks re-read prior threads regarding suggested trades for Iverson. Particularly some of the very fact-filled posts by Scott.

If Iverson comes here, I don't even know whether I'd watch the Pacers on the tube, let alone buy another ticket. So, you can put me in the same camp as ABA, Peck, Scott, ...

GO!!!!!
12-09-2006, 12:26 AM
In Grays defence I'm not sure he'd be duped that easy, seems more like Iverson or his contacts may have said something in confidentialty and he's back tracking to save Iverson, just a thought..... seems a bit unusal to be duped

Eindar
12-09-2006, 12:27 AM
I wouldn't mind having AI on this team, but it won't happen, and I'll tell you why. They only 3 guys on the roster that would be tempting in terms of getting a guy like Iverson are JO, Al, and Danny. Guys like Foster, Quis, Tinsley, and Jackson are fillers. They add some value, but every time a superstar has been traded for multiple above average players, the team who trades the star ALWAYS regrets it, and it's so well-written in stone, I don't even see Billy screwing it up that badly.

Anyways, back to the trade. We'd be overpaying by offering JO, so we'd want something back. Meanwhile, the Sixers wouldn't really want him, because it would force either JO or Webber to play 40 minutes at Center, which neither of them are equipped for. They also play very similarly, so they'd get in each other's way, and on top of that, we'd want something extra.

The problem with Al and Danny are the same. They've got Igoudala on the team already, so giving them more Small Forwards isn't something they'd be interested in. We really just don't match up well in terms of what we have and what Philly would want.

Now, a 3 team trade? That's much more plausible for us, but probably unneccessary, considering the Bulls and the Wolves both need to make a move and have the neccessary pieces to get it done.

denyfizle
12-09-2006, 02:10 AM
AI!!!!!!!!!! wahhhhhhhhh this is just too sweet to even dream about. AI wearing a Pacers jersey? This time of the year has been dreadful for us the past 2 years, but if we get AI somehow w/o losing JO, I can almost say it was worth it. AI, AL and JO will be tough to beat in the EAST. Say what you want, hate on AI all you like but the guy brings 100% every night and our fans needs a shot in the arm badly. This will help ticket sales no doubt. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With the team we have now we surely won't contend for anything. If we get AI, at least we have a shot.

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 02:31 AM
AI!!!!!!!!!! wahhhhhhhhh this is just too sweet to even dream about. AI wearing a Pacers jersey? This time of the year has been dreadful for us the past 2 years, but if we get AI somehow w/o losing JO, I can almost say it was worth it. AI, AL and JO will be tough to beat in the EAST. Say what you want, hate on AI all you like but the guy brings 100% every night and our fans needs a shot in the arm badly. This will help ticket sales no doubt. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With the team we have now we surely won't contend for anything. If we get AI, at least we have a shot.

Word

Frank Slade
12-09-2006, 02:40 AM
Wow it's certainly sounding more than just a possiblity.


PHILADELPHIA -- Allen Iverson and the Philadelphia 76ers appear headed toward a bitter parting.

Iverson is talking about bolting Philly -- and the Sixers might finally be ready to show their franchise player the door.

"We're going to trade him," Sixers chairman Ed Snider said Friday night.

"At a certain point, you have to come to grips with the fact that it's not working. He wants out and we're ready to accommodate him."


As hard as it is to admit, a change may be the best thing for everyone," Iverson said. "I hate admitting that because I love the guys on the team and the city of Philadelphia. I truly wanted to retire a 76er."


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2691152

Sounds like AI will not be rejoining the 76ers while they look for a trade ..

Moses
12-09-2006, 02:43 AM
From a personal standpoint, I'm not the biggest Iverson fan..but when you look at what he's had to work with all his career and being a 1 man show in Philly, it makes you wonder what he could do with another star offensive player (not a washed up Chris Webber) and a competent team.

Not sure how much I'd be willing to give up for Iverson..but I'm willing to bet you he goes to the Knicks or a team that has a ton of expiring contracts they can deal.

Will Galen
12-09-2006, 02:45 AM
I would seriously recommend that folks re-read prior threads regarding suggested trades for Iverson. Particularly some of the very fact-filled posts by Scott.



Scott's fact filled posts were about Bonzi Wells.

Quis
12-09-2006, 03:00 AM
I couldn't find any deal that really suits for Philly.

Granger + any two of Tinsley/Jackson/Quis and if neccesary Hulk Harrison.

I'd do it.

CableKC
12-09-2006, 03:13 AM
This whole Iverson incident is eerily familiar......coincidentally.....didn't Artest do the same thing by requesting a trade around the same time last year?

Eindar
12-09-2006, 04:04 AM
I'd just like to point out that "selfish" Iverson is averaging 7 assists per game this year, 1 more than our great distributor, Jamaal Tinsley. While it is true that Iverson shoots a terrible percentage from the 3 point line, and his FG% is never above 40%, you have to keep in mind that he's usually driving into the teeth of a defense as the main (or even sole) offensive threat. With that in mind, 40% isn't that bad. Also, AI isn't a bad "chemistry" guy. None of his teammates complain about him. He isn't a problem off the court, and he isn't a problem on the court, either. The main problems people seem to have with him are his comments about practice, and his domination of the ball. Well, Sarunas dominates the ball in order to be effective, too, and we're not ready to burn him in effigy (except for Jermainiac). And the "we talkin' 'bout PRACTICE!" comments were four and a half years ago. Any of you changed in the last 4.5 years? I know I have.

I don't think I'd trade JO for him, unless I was getting something back, but I'd have to take a hard look at any other combination of our guys except both Al and Danny, especially if it included getting Jax's albatross of a contract off of our hands.

I like how we like to collectively cry a proverbial river about how we don't have enough dribble penetration or people who can finish, yet when one of the best penetrators in the history of professional basketball is on the trading block, we rip him to shreds.

It may not be a great trade for this team, but when a top 10 player is on the block, and they may be traded for peanuts, you should at least mull it over.

Peck
12-09-2006, 05:21 AM
I'd just like to point out that "selfish" Iverson is averaging 7 assists per game this year, 1 more than our great distributor, Jamaal Tinsley. While it is true that Iverson shoots a terrible percentage from the 3 point line, and his FG% is never above 40%, you have to keep in mind that he's usually driving into the teeth of a defense as the main (or even sole) offensive threat. With that in mind, 40% isn't that bad. Also, AI isn't a bad "chemistry" guy. None of his teammates complain about him. He isn't a problem off the court, and he isn't a problem on the court, either. The main problems people seem to have with him are his comments about practice, and his domination of the ball. Well, Sarunas dominates the ball in order to be effective, too, and we're not ready to burn him in effigy (except for Jermainiac). And the "we talkin' 'bout PRACTICE!" comments were four and a half years ago. Any of you changed in the last 4.5 years? I know I have.

I don't think I'd trade JO for him, unless I was getting something back, but I'd have to take a hard look at any other combination of our guys except both Al and Danny, especially if it included getting Jax's albatross of a contract off of our hands.

I like how we like to collectively cry a proverbial river about how we don't have enough dribble penetration or people who can finish, yet when one of the best penetrators in the history of professional basketball is on the trading block, we rip him to shreds.

It may not be a great trade for this team, but when a top 10 player is on the block, and they may be traded for peanuts, you should at least mull it over.

Stephon Marburry is a career 8 assist per game player, do you think he is unselfish?

When you say that Allen is the main or only offense have you ever wondered why? Have you ever asked yourself why Jerry Stackhouse, Larry Hughes & others have not been able to stay in Philly?

Have you ever heard Chris Webber talk about playing with Iverson? How about have you ever heard Kenny Thomas or Brian Skinner talk about getting away from Iverson?

As to off court chemistry issues I will just say this. I don't know how it is where you work or how you feel about how this but if everybody is expected to hold a certain responsibilty then my guess is that if one person is not held to the same standard then there is some friction.

In other words why should any other philly player give a crap about practice or showing up to team events or whatever if Allen doesn't have to?

Also dominating the ball & comparing Iverson to Saras is like saying Ice Cream and an Ice cube are the same thing because they are cold.

Saras needs the ball to be effective but his main goal is to get everybody involved. Allen needs the ball to be effective but his main goal is to get up a shot.

Allen was able to advance once in all of the years on the floor to the finals for two reasons.

1. Larry Brown was able to convince every other player on the team to just accept that Iverson would score all of the points & you guys just help when you can.

2. Donnie Walsh surrendered to Shaq & thus breaking up the team that would have gone right back to the finals the very next year. No way in hell does Iverson ever & I mean EVER beat that Pacers team. My lasting image of Allen will always be of Geiger carrying him off of the court crying because they were losing & he was having a tantrum with the refs.

Eindar
12-09-2006, 05:24 AM
As long as we're posting crazy AI trade ideas, how about this one?:

Indiana Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes

Stephen Jackson
6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
16.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 2.8 apg in 35.9 minutes

Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes
Incoming

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes

Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes

Rodney Carney
6-6 from Memphis
No games yet played in 2005/06
Change in team outlook: -5.5 ppg, -5.0 rpg, and -2.6 apg.

Philadelphia Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes

Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes

Rodney Carney
6-6 from Memphis
No games yet played in 2005/06
Incoming

Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes

Stephen Jackson
6-8 SG from Oak Hill Academy (HS)
16.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 2.8 apg in 35.9 minutes

Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: +5.5 ppg, +5.0 rpg, and +2.6 apg.

Trades away our "problem children", reunites Carney and Williams, gives AI a couple years for the kids to develop into a championship team. Makes Philly a better team, also.

Our depth chart would be:

AI/Sarunas/DA/Greene
Carney/Quis/Rawle
Granger/Carney/Rawle
Al/Baston/Foster
Foster/Dalambert

Now that team could run!

tdubb03
12-09-2006, 05:34 AM
I'd give em anyone they want if they take Tinsley and Jackson both. Hell, EVERYONE else. Jermaine's really good, but he's no franchise player.

Eindar
12-09-2006, 05:36 AM
Stephon Marburry is a career 8 assist per game player, do you think he is unselfish?

When you say that Allen is the main or only offense have you ever wondered why? Have you ever asked yourself why Jerry Stackhouse, Larry Hughes & others have not been able to stay in Philly?

Have you ever heard Chris Webber talk about playing with Iverson? How about have you ever heard Kenny Thomas or Brian Skinner talk about getting away from Iverson?

As to off court chemistry issues I will just say this. I don't know how it is where you work or how you feel about how this but if everybody is expected to hold a certain responsibilty then my guess is that if one person is not held to the same standard then there is some friction.

In other words why should any other philly player give a crap about practice or showing up to team events or whatever if Allen doesn't have to?

Also dominating the ball & comparing Iverson to Saras is like saying Ice Cream and an Ice cube are the same thing because they are cold.

Saras needs the ball to be effective but his main goal is to get everybody involved. Allen needs the ball to be effective but his main goal is to get up a shot.

Allen was able to advance once in all of the years on the floor to the finals for two reasons.

1. Larry Brown was able to convince every other player on the team to just accept that Iverson would score all of the points & you guys just help when you can.

2. Donnie Walsh surrendered to Shaq & thus breaking up the team that would have gone right back to the finals the very next year. No way in hell does Iverson ever & I mean EVER beat that Pacers team. My lasting image of Allen will always be of Geiger carrying him off of the court crying because they were losing & he was having a tantrum with the refs.

Different standards were 4.5 years ago. Kenny Thomas and Brian Skinner were having their offensive production stunted by Iverson? Is that the route you're going to take?

Larry Hughes? Stackhouse? Those guys left in 2000 and 1998, respectively. So those examples are 6 and 8 years old, respectively. Marbury? Marbury has never led his team to anything except the lottery, and you know it. For a long time, AI didn't make any of his teammates better, either, but he's a different player now than he was then. Also, AI was a winner while being selfish. Marbury was not.

I'm telling you, the guy just wants to win a championship, and has for several years now. He's been a changed player since 03-04, his APG stat will tell you that much. It's just that opinions, especially negative ones, are hard to change.

P.S.: Your Pacers analogy is bad. No matter what Walsh did, Smits would have retired, and Dale and Mark would have left for more money. You're telling me a lineup of Best, Miller, Rose, 22 y/o JO, and Zan Tabak coached by Isiah Thomas would have been in the finals? Rose-colored glasses, my friend.

even if you threw (too much) money at Davis and Jackson, it's:

Jackson
Miller
Rose
Davis
Tabak/Foster

That team is still coached by Isiah Thomas, and the wheels came off of Jackson pretty quick after he was traded, not to mention that Rose still wanted more touches, so he'd have still been a cancer.

P.P.S.S.: I can't believe I'm defending Allen Iverson :)

edc
12-09-2006, 07:18 AM
Please, We dont need Iverson.

And I dont want to trade Tinsley and Granger for Iverson.

Who will be our starting Point Guard "IF" Tinsley was traded for Iverson?

Do you think Iverson is a point guard?

Why majority of the ex-teammates of Iverson plays better when they were traded to another team.

Tim Thomas, Stackhouse, Hughes, Harpring, Kenny Thomas...etc

If i will choose between Iverson and Stephen Jackson, I'll choose Stephen Jackson.

Im happy with the current Pacer roster.

aero
12-09-2006, 10:24 AM
Iverson will be going to Boston OR a west coast team.

bank on that.

J_2_Da_IzzO
12-09-2006, 10:24 AM
How has Iverson being put on the trading block and mention of Pacers received such varied responses here? He is a legend. Hes one of the players that people look at and say he can come up with something when you need it.

AI and JO has so much potential. And AI does take a lot of shots but thats due to him having a willingness to win. His team hasnt exactly been great and think how annoying it is to pass the ball to a teammate who just turns it over or takes an ill advised shot. AI is a winner. He took a weak team to the ECF and in my opinion no other player could have taken that team to the finals.

I'll give anything (minus JO) for AI. BUT if we have to give up JO for AI than thats where the problem is. Losing JO would mean other teams will just have there way in the paint against us. We would turn into what the sixers are right now.

pacers20
12-09-2006, 10:45 AM
3. Indiana: The disappointing Pacers are looking to shake things up, and Larry Bird has always been an Iverson fan. The question, though, is whether Indiana, reeling from numerous public relations disasters involving its players, can bring A.I. to town. If they answer yes, they'd want to keep Jermaine O'Neal (otherwise, what's the point of the deal?), so the trade would have to involve point guard Jamaal Tinsley. The Sixers would certainly also ask for rebounding machine Jeff Foster. But would the Pacers also part with second-year forward Danny Granger or Marquis Daniels, the former Maverick?
Hear they're talking, but don't know how seriously.

hoopsforlife
12-09-2006, 10:50 AM
I wonder if thats the reason Tinsley played so well last night. To show Philly what he has or to show the Pacers he can still bring it. We live in interesting times. :shrug:

rexnom
12-09-2006, 10:53 AM
That's from http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/16199939.htm btw.

Interesting that Minnesota isn't mentioned...

BlueNGold
12-09-2006, 11:03 AM
How has Iverson being put on the trading block and mention of Pacers received such varied responses here? He is a legend. Hes one of the players that people look at and say he can come up with something when you need it.

AI and JO has so much potential. And AI does take a lot of shots but thats due to him having a willingness to win. His team hasnt exactly been great and think how annoying it is to pass the ball to a teammate who just turns it over or takes an ill advised shot. AI is a winner. He took a weak team to the ECF and in my opinion no other player could have taken that team to the finals.

I'll give anything (minus JO) for AI. BUT if we have to give up JO for AI than thats where the problem is. Losing JO would mean other teams will just have there way in the paint against us. We would turn into what the sixers are right now.

Tinsley, Jack and Foster seems like something both teams might do. Philly gets a PG, SG and C, all 3 relatively young good players. AI would take Tinsley's spot and more than compensate on offense. We have Baston, Harrison, Powell, Harrington and JO to handle the middle, although we will take a hit on rebounding. Quis and Granger can handle Jack's position.

If we trade JO, however, we need to get a shotblocker like Dalembert in a package. Then, JO would be expendable. Al can handle the post just fine.

Edit: Yes, I think people need to realize that AI is better than any Pacer in recent memory...probably even Miller. He has been a top 10 player for a long time and still has a lot in the tank at 31.

Pacersfan46
12-09-2006, 11:10 AM
I only read the first two pages, but I'm deeply sickened.

Several people talking about not being fans because Iverson plays here ..... but you were fans through the Artest ordeal. That's ridiculous, and you're not really a fan anyway, if you walk. Have a nice trip, enjoy your next bandwagon.

D-BONE
12-09-2006, 12:34 PM
Anybody like this idea? I could throw Jack in there for Quis I suppose but I think we're better of keeping Jack than Quis looking at keeping a 2. I don't like the idea of moving Foster. IMO they can take Harrison or Powell, but I'd want Jeff and Baston rotating with Dalembert.

I'm not sure I'd even do this at this point but it would be at least attractive enough as an option to warrant serious considertation. Better than other permutations I've run through anyway. If I felt confident JT could play with the level of intensity of the last two games and avoid injury consistently I would not be so interested in him being involved in a deal.

Trade Breakdown


Outgoing

Marquis Daniels
6-5 SG from Auburn
10.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.8 apg in 28.4 minutes

Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes

Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes

Incoming

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes

Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes

Change in team outlook: +0.7 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -2.6 apg.


Philadelphia Trade Breakdown


Outgoing

Allen Iverson
6-0 PG from Georgetown
33.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 7.4 apg in 43.0 minutes

Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
7.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg, 0.4 apg in 26.7 minutes

Incoming

Marquis Daniels
6-5 SG from Auburn
10.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 2.8 apg in 28.4 minutes

Jamaal Tinsley
6-1 PG from Iowa State
9.3 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 5.0 apg in 26.7 minutes

Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes

Change in team outlook: -0.7 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +2.6 apg.



Successful Scenario

Due to Indiana and Philadelphia being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Indiana and Philadelphia had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Isaac
12-09-2006, 12:35 PM
After a lot of thought, I think I would be willing to package Tinsley and Granger for Allen. AI has always taken a ton of shots, but I honestly believe that it is because he has never been surrounded by a good enough supporting cast. He has the same problem MJ had early in his career with taking so many shots. Iverson taking a shot is simply the best way for Philly to get a bucket.

Let's say we got him for Tinsley and Granger. Would you guys really not get a little bit excited about a lineup like this?

Iverson
Jackson
Harrington
Jermaine
Jeff

odeez
12-09-2006, 12:42 PM
Wake up haters! He is Allen Iverson. Most of you who don't want him are haters of the thug look. I think that Iverson was a bit of trouble back in the day and a bit selfish, but most All Stars are. I believe he has matured and is ready to win a title. If we have a chance to get him we should do it. We are forth in the Central right now, some of you might say that is ok, well, I for one want to be in first in the Central, and for that matter, first in the East. And I believe Iverson's 28 - 30 points per night will do just fine. He has a good 4-5 years of high level play left in him. He would change the direction of our ball club, bottom line. Some again might say for the worst, but is that really what you think or do you just hate tattoos?

We should trade whomever we have to to get him, except for Granger. But my feeling is that they (Philly) would want him in any deal. Anyways, get Iverson!

odeez
12-09-2006, 12:49 PM
Tinsley, Jack and Foster seems like something both teams might do. Philly gets a PG, SG and C, all 3 relatively young good players. AI would take Tinsley's spot and more than compensate on offense. We have Baston, Harrison, Powell, Harrington and JO to handle the middle, although we will take a hit on rebounding. Quis and Granger can handle Jack's position.

If we trade JO, however, we need to get a shotblocker like Dalembert in a package. Then, JO would be expendable. Al can handle the post just fine.

Edit: Yes, I think people need to realize that AI is better than any Pacer in recent memory...probably even Miller. He has been a top 10 player for a long time and still has a lot in the tank at 31.

BlueNGold I agree with everything you just said. I think the rest of these fans need to WAKE UP, it's freakin' Allen Iverson where talking about!

diamonddave00
12-09-2006, 12:57 PM
First of any deal for Allen Iverson will not include Jermaine O'Neal.

It would more likely be a 4 for 2 or 5 for 2 deal.

Something along the lines of ;
Allen Iverson and Steven Hunter for

Jamaal Tinsley , Jeff Foster, Marquis Dainels, Shawne Williams and perhaps David Harrison.

No team will take both Stephen and Jamaal in the same trade.

Pacers will not trade a 28year old big Jermaine for a 31 year old small Iverson who has logged so many minutes in his career.

Philly would like the athletism of Williams and Daniels , Jeff's hustle, Harrison's potential and Jamaal would flourish as a lead guard with Cheeks as his coach.

Hunter would add a shot blocker -sometimes rebounder for 17-25 minutes a night. Not saying the deal is likely only that Jermaine O'Neal WILL NOT be offered in an Allen Iverson trade.

Moving Stephen Jackson would then become the #1 priority he'd become at best 4th option here . Unlikely any deal would happen between the 2 teams but if David Aldredge and Peter Vescey can be believed Walsh/Bird have interest in Iverson.

rel
12-09-2006, 01:05 PM
Don't know if this has been post here yet but...apparently we're interested

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/43653/20061209/chicago_or_boston_iversons_top_choices/

if for some reason we do a trade for AI...Granger better have no part of it!

Bball
12-09-2006, 01:08 PM
JO and Iverson cannot coexist.

-Bball

Just
12-09-2006, 01:10 PM
JO and Iverson cannot coexist.

-Bball

Yeah, because you've seen them play together, and all.

Just
12-09-2006, 01:12 PM
First of any deal for Allen Iverson will not include Jermaine O'Neal.

It would more likely be a 4 for 2 or 5 for 2 deal.

Something along the lines of ;
Allen Iverson and Steven Hunter for

Jamaal Tinsley , Jeff Foster, Marquis Dainels, Shawne Williams and perhaps David Harrison.

No team will take both Stephen and Jamaal in the same trade.

Pacers will not trade a 28year old big Jermaine for a 31 year old small Iverson who has logged so many minutes in his career.

Philly would like the athletism of Williams and Daniels , Jeff's hustle, Harrison's potential and Jamaal would flourish as a lead guard with Cheeks as his coach.

Hunter would add a shot blocker -sometimes rebounder for 17-25 minutes a night. Not saying the deal is likely only that Jermaine O'Neal WILL NOT be offered in an Allen Iverson trade.

Moving Stephen Jackson would then become the #1 priority he'd become at best 4th option here . Unlikely any deal would happen between the 2 teams but if David Aldredge and Peter Vescey can be believed Walsh/Bird have interest in Iverson.

I would do that in a freakin' instant.

We could put Iverson/Jackson/Granger/Harrington/O'Neal on the floor

Maybe too many scorers, but like you said, that can be adjusted by either making Jack a 6th man or dealing him. (Jack is kinda growing on me this season. He seems more focused)

diamonddave00
12-09-2006, 01:20 PM
I'd think Granger and either Jackson or Harrington would come off the bench.

AI drives-draws -dishes. Hunter would start at center. Not likely to happen but not impossible either.

bulldog
12-09-2006, 01:25 PM
I can't imagine we'd be able to offer a better deal than the Bulls. And he's such a perfect fit for Chicago. I say only way they don't get him is if Philly wants to get AI out of the conference, although that doesn't help us any.

aero
12-09-2006, 01:26 PM
I would do that in a freakin' instant.

We could put Iverson/Jackson/Granger/Harrington/O'Neal on the floor

Maybe too many scorers, but like you said, that can be adjusted by either making Jack a 6th man or dealing him. (Jack is kinda growing on me this season. He seems more focused)


ill have to admit that would indeed be a sweet lineup

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 01:30 PM
Yeah, because you've seen them play together, and all.Of course, BBall knows already. If Rick Carlisle can do anything he can make players coexist, look at Ron and JO they hated each other, but when they played together we won and we where one of the best teams in the NBA.

JO and AI both want to win, thats all that matters to me.

Say we traded Jack,Foster and Tins for AI

We would have a line up of
PG-Sarunas
SG-AI
SF-Al
PF-JO
C-Maceo

I think that line up would be topps in the east.

3rdStrike
12-09-2006, 01:31 PM
How is he a perfect fit for Chicago, when Hinrich plays PG?

I'd do Tinsley, Foster and Daniels without hesitation.

I just really want the P's back in the '07 draft.

bulldog
12-09-2006, 01:32 PM
I doubt we get AI without Granger.

Has anyone looked at what the Bulls can offer? And they have expiring contracts too. We might want to make this trade just so the Bulls don't get him and own the division for the next 2-3 years.

aero
12-09-2006, 01:32 PM
if he went to Chicago im thinking Ben Gordon would be involved in the trade...

If we could trade Tinsley, Foster and Marquis Daniels (even though i really like the kid) ...for AI...id have to jump on that with a quickness. too bad we dont have a first round pick to include to sweeten up the deal

aero
12-09-2006, 01:38 PM
I doubt we get AI without Granger.

Has anyone looked at what the Bulls can offer? And they have expiring contracts too. We might want to make this trade just so the Bulls don't get him and own the division for the next 2-3 years.

the Bulls lack chemistry right now, adding AI to the mix wouldn't help out imo but eh thats just me...everyone (the media) was jumping on the Ben Wallace signing with saying the Bulls would be #1 in the east and look how that has turned out...you think th bulls would really want AI ?

AI couldn't wear his headband either lol :blush:

Mourning
12-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Maybe organically/positionally for the Bulls he would be perfect, but I doubt that Bulls management would like to risk their group of young and talented players on Iverson's attitude and approach to some team things. I could be wrong, but I would understand it from their side.

IF the price would be Jamaal, Foster and either Maquis or Stephen and, why not, one second rounder I would probably support this trade if it also all works financially and with the trade checkers and conditions. IF it doesn't work we rebuild this coming summer. Time to make a decision, I don't mind some clarity.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

rel
12-09-2006, 01:51 PM
Maybe on that episode of punk'd where JO and AL went to AI's Bday party and all got punk'd...they decided there to become teammates this season...

:)

aero
12-09-2006, 01:58 PM
Maybe on that episode of punk'd where JO and AL went to AI's Bday party and all got punk'd...they decided there to become teammates this season...

:)

:D

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 02:04 PM
Quis, Foster, Tins for AI? Where in the hell do I sign?

D-BONE
12-09-2006, 02:06 PM
AI is not a 2, at least not big minutes, IMO. His best position primarily due to size is the 1.

I don't give up Granger in this deal. I would give up JO 28 for AI 31 if I get Dalembert back.

If AI and JO were here, JO or AI would have to accept not being "the man". Are either really capable?

Stephen Hunter should not start over Baston. In fact, I have no interest in him. If we get a 2nd player in this, whether we'd give up JO or not, I want somebody other than Hunter. If they want young, give em Harrison and Willaims for all I'd care.

I really would be surprised to see AI coming here anyway as far as my NON-fantasy land imagination expectations.

pacers20
12-09-2006, 02:09 PM
Mike Monroe of the San Antonio (http://spurs.realgm.com/) Express-News reports that Allen Iverson (http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/375/allen_iverson/) told the Sixers (http://sixers.realgm.com/) he would prefer to be traded to either the Bulls (http://bulls.realgm.com/) or Celtics.

He also reports that the Nuggets (http://nuggets.realgm.com/) and Pacers (http://pacers.realgm.com/) are interested in becomming involved with the talks.





yeaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Jermaniac
12-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Already a thread on this

rel
12-09-2006, 02:16 PM
Having iverson WOULD bring up our fan base and attendence would definitely increase...

so, as long as we don't give up Granger, i wouldn't be against it

ABADays
12-09-2006, 02:22 PM
I only read the first two pages, but I'm deeply sickened.

Several people talking about not being fans because Iverson plays here ..... but you were fans through the Artest ordeal. That's ridiculous, and you're not really a fan anyway, if you walk. Have a nice trip, enjoy your next bandwagon.

Jesus Christ another one of these stupid "you're not a fan" posts. Match my 39 years and then you can pass judgement on whether I'm a fan or not. Digest decorum doesn't allow me to go any further with my thoughts on you.

denyfizle
12-09-2006, 02:29 PM
JT, Jack, Quis and Harrison is quite alright for me.

BlueNGold
12-09-2006, 02:42 PM
I would do that in a freakin' instant.

We could put Iverson/Jackson/Granger/Harrington/O'Neal on the floor

Maybe too many scorers, but like you said, that can be adjusted by either making Jack a 6th man or dealing him. (Jack is kinda growing on me this season. He seems more focused)

With all due respect, honestly, that is a ridiculous lineup. They would need two balls on the court to satisfy that group.

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 02:43 PM
Maybe organically/positionally for the Bulls he would be perfect, but I doubt that Bulls management would like to risk their group of young and talented players on Iverson's attitude and approach to some team things.

Iverson's attitude? Is this really still an issue? What has he done to warrant questioning his attitude in the last five years aside from go out every night with his heart on his sleeve?

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 02:44 PM
With all due respect, honestly, that is a ridiculous lineup. They would need two balls on the court to satisfy that group.

I agree. I think we would have to get a more balanced starting lineup on the court, but I think that lineup could coexist to close out game.

BlueNGold
12-09-2006, 02:45 PM
Iverson's attitude? Is this really still an issue? What has he done to warrant questioning his attitude in the last five years aside from go out every night with his heart on his sleeve?

Iverson has certainly grown up, but how would he mesh with Skiles? It could get messy.

Ivy is going to MN or Boston IMO

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 02:47 PM
Hey in Chitown AI couldn't wear his headband either. :lol:

#31
12-09-2006, 02:52 PM
:pray:

#31
12-09-2006, 02:53 PM
:pray:

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 02:56 PM
This is an article in the San Antonio Express that is on realgm right now.

Mourning
12-09-2006, 03:03 PM
I doubt we get AI without Granger.

Has anyone looked at what the Bulls can offer? And they have expiring contracts too. We might want to make this trade just so the Bulls don't get him and own the division for the next 2-3 years.

I will just repeat what I wrote in another thread.

Maybe organically/positionally for the Bulls he would be perfect, but I doubt that Bulls management would like to risk their group of young and talented players on Iverson's attitude and approach to some team things. I could be wrong, but I would understand it from their side with Ben allready beying there and Skiles not beying a "softie" himself.

IF the price would be Jamaal, Foster and either Maquis or Stephen and, why not, one second rounder I would probably support this trade if it also all works financially and with the trade checkers and conditions. IF it doesn't work we rebuild this coming summer. Time to make a decision, I don't mind some clarity.

Regards,

Mourning :cool:

Destined4Greatness
12-09-2006, 03:18 PM
Having iverson WOULD bring up our fan base and attendence would definitely increase...

so, as long as we don't give up Granger, i wouldn't be against it

Yeah him skipping fan Jam will really please the average fan. And the important thing is to increase attendance not, Win. How silly of me to want to win, we can increase attendance.

BlueNGold
12-09-2006, 03:25 PM
Yeah him skipping fan Jam will really please the average fan. And the important thing is to increase attendance not, Win. How silly of me to want to win, we can increase attendance.

There is little Iverson can do to lower this team's status in the eyes of the public. From Artest to Club Rio, we cannot get much lower from a PR standpoint. In fact, I suspect adding him will improve that area because it is well known he has grown up significantly. This will be particularly true if we offload a couple of the Club Rio boys.

You can be sure he will boost merchandise sales big time.

I think we have enough quality depth to make a multi-player trade and get him. It is time to make a run with JO and AI!!!

BobbyMac
12-09-2006, 03:27 PM
Trading for Iverson is probably the only thing that could happen that would cause me to rethink my being a Pacer fan....guys a total jerk and takes 30-35 shots a game....last thing in the world we need!!!!!

bulldog
12-09-2006, 03:31 PM
Hinrich's a relatively big PG, Iverson's a small SG. Sure, they'd be mismatched at one of the guard spots against a team like NJ, but hell, everyone's mismatched against NJ, and AI would make them pay at the other end.

The bulls have trouble scoring, they need someone to take 35 shots a game.

AI is a tenacious defender and would fit in with Skiles defensive scheme.

Hinrich and Deng can shoot the three and create space for AI.

Perfect fit for Chicago.

Are we really going to have to spend the next three years going against AI in Chicago and Lebron in Cleveland. I'm a little worried.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 03:31 PM
Minny's owner has said he will not pay Iverson's salary which will probably not sit well with KG since he just said he wants AI on the Wolves. Watch out KG maybe the next star on the move.

George Karl said before the Heat game last night that he does not want AI on the Nuggets.

That leaves us, Bulls, and Celtics as the remaining rumored teams.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minny's owner has said he will not pay Iverson's salary which will probably not sit well with KG since he just said he wants AI on the Wolves. Watch out KG maybe the next star on the move.

George Karl said before the Heat game last night that he does not want AI on the Nuggets.

That leaves us, Bulls, and Celtics as the remaining rumored teams.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 03:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minny's owner has said he will not pay Iverson's salary which will probably not sit well with KG since he just said he wants AI on the Wolves. Watch out KG maybe the next star on the move.

George Karl said before the Heat game last night that he does not want AI on the Nuggets.

That leaves us, Bulls, and Celtics as the remaining rumored teams.

You think Skiles wants Iverson on his team? I highly, highly doubt it. I think the BUlls will hold out and hope KG or Pierce comes available.

bulldog
12-09-2006, 03:35 PM
Maybe organically/positionally for the Bulls he would be perfect, but I doubt that Bulls management would like to risk their group of young and talented players on Iverson's attitude and approach to some team things. I could be wrong, but I would understand it from their side with Ben allready beying there and Skiles not beying a "softie" himself.



I'l also copy my response from the other thread since the Bulls thing is being discussed in both, maybe a merge or a delete on the other one is in order?

Hinrich's a relatively big PG, Iverson's a small SG. Sure, they'd be mismatched at one of the guard spots against a team like NJ, but hell, everyone's mismatched against NJ, and AI would make them pay at the other end.

The bulls have trouble scoring, they need someone to take 35 shots a game.

AI is a tenacious defender and would fit in with Skiles defensive scheme.

Hinrich and Deng can shoot the three and create space for AI.

As far as chemistry, winning cures all, and I think that Bulls team would flat out win a lot of games. Sure, Skiles and AI would but heads a little bit, but that's OK as long as they're winning games. There's a chance it could all go to hell for them, but I'll tell you this: no matter how bad things get, AI will always go out and play hard, and if you take that approach to the NBA, you will get wins.

Perfect fit for Chicago.

Are we really going to have to spend the next three years going against AI in Chicago and Lebron in Cleveland. I'm a little worried.

Mr. Sobchak
12-09-2006, 03:53 PM
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/basketball/16199928.htm



Wolves: We can't afford Iverson
Rumors, fueled by Iverson imposter, featured deal here
From staff reports
Allen Iverson and the Philadelphia 76ers appear headed toward a bitter parting.

But Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor said he won't end up in Minnesota, despite a flood of rumors Friday night that said otherwise.

"No trade," Taylor said during the Wolves' 110-103 victory over Utah on Friday night at Target Center. "It isn't that I don't like him. Just money-wise, it wouldn't work out."

Speculation heated up the past couple of days about where Iverson could end up. The Wolves were at the top of the list of possible destinations.

ESPN reporter Jim Gray announced on the air that Iverson told him in a telephone interview Friday that he was heading to Minnesota. He came back on the air soon after to say that he had been "duped," admitting, "I was talking to an imposter."

Iverson's 11-year career in Philadelphia took another tumultuous turn Friday when the former NBA most valuable player hinted that a trade might be best after the Sixers sent him home and ruled him out of their next two games.

"As hard as it is to admit, a change may be the best thing for everyone," Iverson said. "I hate admitting that because I love the guys on the team and the city of Philadelphia. I truly wanted to retire a 76er."

"We'll trade him," Sixers chairman Ed Snider said Friday night. "At a certain point, you have to come to grips with the fact that it's not working. He wants out, and we're ready to accommodate him."

Snider said Iverson has "probably" played his last game with the Sixers, ending a career that placed him with Julius Erving, Charles Barkley and Wilt Chamberlain among the team's greats.

"I think it's time for him to move on, for us to move on and find out where everything stands," Snider said. "I really didn't see it coming because Allen says all the right things."

In a surprising turn of events, Iverson was banished by the club and didn't play Friday against Washington. Team President Billy King said the move was not a suspension and Iverson's future would be re-evaluated after tonight's game at Orlando.

King and coach Maurice Cheeks said Iverson was sent home because he did not practice on Thursday and left Wednesday's blowout loss at Chicago with back spasms. However, the move to bench their captain comes with Iverson's name swirling in heavy trade rumors.

King would not say before the Sixers' game against the Wizards whether Iverson had asked for a trade or if he was actively trying to trade the four-time NBA scoring champion. Snider confirmed that Iverson did ask this week to be dealt.

"Allen was not able to practice yesterday because of the back, and today Mo made a decision not to play him tonight or tomorrow," King said. "We told him to just take the night off and tomorrow."

Iverson told a different story. Iverson, whose off-court behavior and coaching clashes often overshadowed his gritty, highlight-reel play, released a statement through agent Leon Rose stating that he told the Sixers he was healthy enough to play.

Iverson said he was told not to participate in shootaround and instead watched from the sideline. He joined the Sixers in the huddle, then was told by Cheeks not to come to the Wachovia Center.

"In my entire career, even the doctors haven't been able to tell me not to play," Iverson said. "I've played through injury and illness. I think everyone knows how much I love being out on the court, competing and winning. That's why it was so disheartening to be told that I couldn't play, knowing that I was ready. It hurt even more to be told not to come at all."

Iverson, who leads the league with a 31.7-point average, left Wednesday night's 121-94 loss at Chicago in the second half, complaining of the spasms, and did not practice Thursday. The Sixers are 5-13, have lost six straight and 13 of 15 overall.

"This season has been very frustrating for everyone," Iverson said. "We've lost 12 of 14 games and nothing seems to be working. I have expressed my frustration to my teammates, however, I have continued to give 100 percent night in and night out. Apparently, it hasn't been enough to help our team win."

Even with the Sixers sinking toward another lottery-bound season, Snider said Cheeks and King's jobs were safe.

Cheeks said he expected Iverson to finish the season in Philadelphia.

Iverson reportedly was nearly dealt last offseason to Boston.

This report includes information from the Associated Press.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 03:55 PM
The mass merging that just went on makes me look like a retard for posting the same thing 3 times. :lol:

aero
12-09-2006, 03:58 PM
the more and more i think about it the Pacers have a damn good shot at getting AI if the package is right...i just hope for the love of god that Danny Granger isn't in the package *prays*

realistically i just don't see AI going to Chicago being right, nor do i see him going to the Wolves(as stated in this thread title) nor do i see him going to Denver...I could only see him going to Boston or like ive said in other threads...to a west coast team..which team you ask ? i don't know

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 04:07 PM
Anybody think Miami and Detroit are making offers for him?

aero
12-09-2006, 04:10 PM
they both could be but i dont see them offering up enough people worth the interest of Philly

im sure Miami would be offering Walker and Payton in a deal...who wants them ? i know i sure wouldn't. but eh thats just me

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 04:12 PM
Reading this thread has nearly made my eyes bleed.

And please, everyone, just take a deep breath....

We are not getting Allen Iverson. WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE CHIPS. It's really, really not even worth discussing. They won't want JO. And Granger is much less coveted by a team that has Igoudala and Carney already at the 3. The Bulls and Cs and Lakers and many other teams all have much, much, much more to offer.


As for Iverson....That "we talking about practice" press conference was like five years ago. So aside from this latest trade request (which I see as completely warranted and absolutely uncomparable to Artest for lots of reasons), I really can't think of a single thing that has happened in recent years that leaves any remaining questions about his attitude. He's a 31-year-old adult now, not a punk kid.

Also...if you don't think he'd fit in on our squad and don't want him for on-the-court reasons....that's fine. But please don't question his ability to play basketball. It just makes you look foolish.

He's coming off a career year in which he averaged 33 points per game on 44.7% shooting. That's Four Four dot Seven Percent.

Only seven other guards in the entire League shot better than AI from the floor, while averaging 15+ ppg.

Michael Redd 45.0%
Kobe 45.0%
Joe Johnson 45.3%
Ray Allen 45.4%
Mike James 46.9%
Rip 49.1%
Dwyane Wade 49.5%

Only James, Rip and Wade can be called better by a significant margin.

(By the way, not a single Pacers guard has shot 44.7% from the field since Reggie did so in '01-'02. Redbull is currently at 45.4% for this year, but raise your hand if you expect that to last.)

Meanwhile, AI was 8th in assists per game and only averaged 3.4 TOs per game. (Hard to write only there, but that's a good number for him and really not that bad for anyone handling the ball as much as he does. Makes for a 2.3 ***/TO ratio, as well.)

A big part of his improved FG% and the other things that came in his career year of 05-06 was that he got to the line a career high 11.5 times per game. This, along with him only shooting 3.1 threes per game (4.5 per the previous year and a 4.1 per career average) shows that he is once again concentrating on getting to the rim like he was 25 years old again.

His numbers from 04-05 were not quite as good as last year (42.4% FG), but they were mostly all improvements from his earlier career numbers and do also suggest (along with the game tapes) that this is probably a "too-be-expected" evolution in the approach to the game of a first-ballot Hall of Famer, rather than just a one-year anomaly.



But by all means, just continue go ahead and base your opinions about both the ability and the attitude of the best 6' foot or under guy to ever play in the NBA* on things that happened years ago.



* (apologies to Bob Cousy and Tiny Archibald)

Jimmy
12-09-2006, 04:32 PM
Reading this thread has nearly made my eyes bleed.

And please, everyone, just take a deep breath....

We are not getting Allen Iverson. WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE CHIPS. It's really, really not even worth discussing. They won't want JO. And Granger is much less coveted by a team that has Igoudala and Carney already at the 3. The Bulls and Cs and Lakers and many other teams all have much, much, much more to offer.


As for Iverson....That "we talking about practice" press conference was like five years ago. So aside from this latest trade request (which I see as completely warranted and absolutely uncomparable to Artest for lots of reasons), I really can't think of a single thing that has happened in recent years that leaves any remaining questions about his attitude. He's a 31-year-old adult now, not a punk kid.

Also...if you don't think he'd fit in on our squad and don't want him for on-the-court reasons....that's fine. But please don't question his ability to play basketball. It just makes you look foolish.

He's coming off a career year in which he averaged 33 points per game on 44.7% shooting. That's Four Four dot Seven Percent.

Only seven other guards in the entire League shot better than AI from the floor, while averaging 15+ ppg.

Michael Redd 45.0%
Kobe 45.0%
Joe Johnson 45.3%
Ray Allen 45.4%
Mike James 46.9%
Rip 49.1%
Dwyane Wade 49.5%

Only James, Rip and Wade can be called better by a significant margin.

(By the way, not a single Pacers guard has shot 44.7% from the field since Reggie did so in '01-'02. Redbull is currently at 45.4% for this year, but raise your hand if you expect that to last.)

Meanwhile, AI was 8th in assists per game and only averaged 3.4 TOs per game. (Hard to write only there, but that's a good number for him and really not that bad for anyone handling the ball as much as he does. Makes for a 2.3 ***/TO ratio, as well.)

A big part of his improved FG% and the other things that came in his career year of 05-06 was that he got to the line a career high 11.5 times per game. This, along with him only shooting 3.1 threes per game (4.5 per the previous year and a 4.1 per career average) shows that he is once again concentrating on getting to the rim like he was 25 years old again.

His numbers from 04-05 were not quite as good as last year (42.4% FG), but they were mostly all improvements from his earlier career numbers and do also suggest (along with the game tapes) that this is probably a "too-be-expected" evolution in the approach to the game of a first-ballot Hall of Famer, rather than just a one-year anomaly.



But by all means, just continue go ahead and base your opinions about both the ability and the attitude of the best 6' foot or under guy to ever play in the NBA* on things that happened years ago.



* (apologies to Bob Cousy and Tiny Archibald)





great post......very good information

tdubb03
12-09-2006, 05:28 PM
I can't understand all this hating on AI's game. Sure, maybe you don't like his attitude or style or whatever, but there's no doubt he's one of the best guards in the history of basketball.

Dude's like 5'10 and he's 3RD ALL-TIME IN CAREER PPG.

Shade
12-09-2006, 05:32 PM
If I were KG, I would be next to demand a trade. That's ridiculous.

ABADays
12-09-2006, 05:33 PM
Reading this thread has nearly made my eyes bleed.

And please, everyone, just take a deep breath....

We are not getting Allen Iverson. WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE CHIPS. It's really, really not even worth discussing. They won't want JO. And Granger is much less coveted by a team that has Igoudala and Carney already at the 3. The Bulls and Cs and Lakers and many other teams all have much, much, much more to offer.


As for Iverson....That "we talking about practice" press conference was like five years ago. So aside from this latest trade request (which I see as completely warranted and absolutely uncomparable to Artest for lots of reasons), I really can't think of a single thing that has happened in recent years that leaves any remaining questions about his attitude. He's a 31-year-old adult now, not a punk kid.

Also...if you don't think he'd fit in on our squad and don't want him for on-the-court reasons....that's fine. But please don't question his ability to play basketball. It just makes you look foolish.

He's coming off a career year in which he averaged 33 points per game on 44.7% shooting. That's Four Four dot Seven Percent.

Only seven other guards in the entire League shot better than AI from the floor, while averaging 15+ ppg.

Michael Redd 45.0%
Kobe 45.0%
Joe Johnson 45.3%
Ray Allen 45.4%
Mike James 46.9%
Rip 49.1%
Dwyane Wade 49.5%

Only James, Rip and Wade can be called better by a significant margin.

(By the way, not a single Pacers guard has shot 44.7% from the field since Reggie did so in '01-'02. Redbull is currently at 45.4% for this year, but raise your hand if you expect that to last.)

Meanwhile, AI was 8th in assists per game and only averaged 3.4 TOs per game. (Hard to write only there, but that's a good number for him and really not that bad for anyone handling the ball as much as he does. Makes for a 2.3 ***/TO ratio, as well.)

A big part of his improved FG% and the other things that came in his career year of 05-06 was that he got to the line a career high 11.5 times per game. This, along with him only shooting 3.1 threes per game (4.5 per the previous year and a 4.1 per career average) shows that he is once again concentrating on getting to the rim like he was 25 years old again.

His numbers from 04-05 were not quite as good as last year (42.4% FG), but they were mostly all improvements from his earlier career numbers and do also suggest (along with the game tapes) that this is probably a "too-be-expected" evolution in the approach to the game of a first-ballot Hall of Famer, rather than just a one-year anomaly.



But by all means, just continue go ahead and base your opinions about both the ability and the attitude of the best 6' foot or under guy to ever play in the NBA* on things that happened years ago.



* (apologies to Bob Cousy and Tiny Archibald)

I suspect the 76'ers owners have been around to see all you have quoted above. Guess what? It looks they can't wait to ship him out. I think there might be a reason for that.

CableKC
12-09-2006, 05:40 PM
Anybody think Miami and Detroit are making offers for him?

For Miami....that's what they need....yet another player that needs the ball to be in his hand to be effective. The rest of the team would be standing around watching Shaq, Wade and AI shoot the ball.

I think that he would fit better in Detroit.....with Flip's offense. We know that the Big 4 ( Chauncey, Rip, Prince and Sheed ) aren't going.....so I don't know where he would play...or what pieces they would give up to acquire him.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 05:42 PM
I suspect the 76'ers owners have been around to see all you have quoted above. Guess what? It looks they can't wait to ship him out. I think there might be a reason for that.

Really? They can't wait to ship him out? Then why didn't they do it sooner if he is such a pain? Why did it have to come to him going to them behind closed doors and asking for a trade before anything was done? That statement is laughable at best.

Shade, I believe we could see KG ask for a trade very soon. He came out and said he would like to have Iverson on the Wolves and then within the day, the owner rebukes. Basically saying we don't give two ****s what KG wants we aren't paying for AI and we aren't interested in giving KG that other star he desperately needs and deserves. To me this is the justifiable reason KG has been waiting for to ask out of Minny.

JayRedd
12-09-2006, 05:45 PM
I suspect the 76'ers owners have been around to see all you have quoted above. Guess what? It looks they can't wait to ship him out. I think there might be a reason for that.

It's because the only thing they have on their roster are two 30+ guys making close to $40 million (one who can barely walk) and a bunch of bad-to-promising young players. By the time the young'ns are ready, the other guys will be past their prime.

And they could have traded Ivy this summer if they wanted to anyway. They decided to keep him. By most accounts, they had a good offer from Boston that they turned down. They clearly were not incredibly eager to trade four months ago.

Now he told them he wants to leave (behind closed doors and with a lot more dignity than most anyone else who has recently asked to be moved I might add). So they have responded by saying "Okay" now that their hand has been forced. There is no evidence to say that they are now thrilled to get rid of their local icon and franchise player coming off a career year. But they are willingly doing so at his request and probably for the betterment of their franchise's future ability to compete for a Title (he is 31 and all). They may also be doing so out of respect to said local icon, if you'll also allow me a conjecture equally unfounded by facts.

Whether or not AI's asking for a trade was appropriate is another debate, but from the "practice" press conference until the other day, there are very few cases (that I'm aware of) that can be used to suggest that AI has acted as anything but a complete and utter professional, and as someone that everyone on his roster looks up to as a historically great player and the leader of the Philadelphia 76ers. His behavior on Team USA was also highly regarded by many who considered him as the only person that gave 100% effort in Athens, for those of you into patriotism.

speakout4
12-09-2006, 05:57 PM
As far as chemistry, winning cures all, and I think that Bulls team would flat out win a lot of games. Sure, Skiles and AI would but heads a little bit, but that's OK as long as they're winning games. There's a chance it could all go to hell for them, but I'll tell you this: no matter how bad things get, AI will always go out and play hard, and if you take that approach to the NBA, you will get wins.

Perfect fit for Chicago.

Skiles and AI would butt heads more than a little. Wallace, AI, and Skiles are clearly combustible. I don't think that Chicago will go for AI. Skiles won't even let Wallace wear a head band . Do you think Skiles will tolerate all the AI stuff?

beast23
12-09-2006, 06:24 PM
Scott's fact filled posts were about Bonzi Wells.Good point, as I sit here red-faced. Bonzi Wells, Iverson, Rose... are at the bottom of my list, in that order.

But thanks for the correction. Sorry, Scott.

indygeezer
12-09-2006, 06:55 PM
I just read this entire thread from start to finish....and my IQ has dropped >100 pts for doing so.

Like him or not, AI is one HUGE draw at the gate and at the sovenier (sp) stand. ANY trade for AI begins with JO or it does not even start. Simple economics. Money talks and that's that.

For the record, I have mellowed over the years re: Ivy...he was the one player that did not quit during the Olympics and I said then I was cutting him slack from that day on. That does not mean I want him on the team. If I'm moving JO I want younger and more team oriented players than Ivy. I think we can get more and more complete players for JO.

It's a trite cliche I know but I'm going to use it anyway.......

There is an I in Iverson, and it ALWAYS comes first.

Isaac
12-09-2006, 06:57 PM
I would love to get AI, but I would be shocked if it happens.

I guarantee if we got him, the post game threads would be filled with quotes like "Wow, we got such a steal. I never really realized how special this guy is". As has been said before in this thread, winning cures everything. I think JO and CO want to win so bad and so does AI. That would be a ton of talent, and talent in its prime on our team, and you can't pass on that. I believe they would figure out a way to play together because of the stage of their careers that they are at.

But, I'm not getting my hopes up.

Naptown_Seth
12-09-2006, 08:12 PM
Jay, I agree that AI has shown improved attitude. BUT so has Jackson, doesn't seem to matter to local fans.

AI skipped the fan night game at the end of last season and now is in the trade demand mode ala Ron last year. You either see it as the organization really is messed up and he should want out, or he is not being very mature in dealing with his unhappiness.

I get why you see it as a possible good gamble, a fresh situation to get him going again. But what if it is his attitude that has kept them down?


I don't get how fans could ride JO or Jack for taking too many shots and then celebrate getting AI.

I like AI's game, but then I also happen to feel pretty decent about most of the Pacers main players. The guards aren't AI, but they aren't the big money players, that's JO and AL. I really like what those 2 have done this year, so to me a lot of this is "what's the problem and is it anywhere near as bad as Philly's situation?"

AI is going to cost a team A LOT. Not money, but salary I mean. You get him if you don't have a reliable huge money star, same as KG. If you have a bunch of mid-level talent and no big star (as Miami saw themselves before the Shaq deal) then you trade.

I don't think JO is quite at that level and I don't think AL is playing below his contract to warrant a move.

Jack and Tins for AI? Does that work and is Philly interested? That's about as close as you can get to a sensible deal, and it still pulls a bench guy up to SG or PG starter - Rawle or Saras or Quis.

It's not awful, it's just risky and I don't see the Pacers in a situation where they need to think risk just yet.

Shade
12-09-2006, 08:34 PM
I just read this entire thread from start to finish....and my IQ has dropped >100 pts for doing so.

Like him or not, AI is one HUGE draw at the gate and at the sovenier (sp) stand. ANY trade for AI begins with JO or it does not even start. Simple economics. Money talks and that's that.

For the record, I have mellowed over the years re: Ivy...he was the one player that did not quit during the Olympics and I said then I was cutting him slack from that day on. That does not mean I want him on the team. If I'm moving JO I want younger and more team oriented players than Ivy. I think we can get more and more complete players for JO.

It's a trite cliche I know but I'm going to use it anyway.......

There is an I in Iverson, and it ALWAYS comes first.

Not necessarily. Does any Sixers/Celtics trade start with Paul Pierce? Does any Sixers/TWolves trade start with Kevin Garnett?

AI has DEMANDED to be traded, so the Sixers are working from a point of weakness here (as well all know too well from first-hand experience). They won't get another franchise player in return for him.

With that said, any trade with the Pacers would definitely have to include Granger, IMO, and possibly Al as well.

v_d_g
12-09-2006, 08:51 PM
Are we really going to have to spend the next three years going against AI in Chicago and Lebron in Cleveland. I'm a little worried.

Why are you worried?

You've got a non athletic, very unmotivated at times, congenitally slow starting, worst shooting (in the NBA) team, more suited to playing 90's BRUTE BB rather than the athletic BBALL of the day. Oh, and did I mention that NEXT YEAR while teams are getting RICH off that incredibly loaded draft, you won't care
cause you have Baby AL.

Now, that's the way to run a franchise.

And, people on this board are actually arguing against acquiring a player that just might make the Pacers an enjoyable team to watch ---not to mention a BETTER team. Hey, the Knicks are more entertaining.

Gee, we wouldn't want to give up Danny, in any deal. Cause, he's got STAR written all over him. Sure............

And we wouldn't want to make JO what he really is: a SECOND OPTION.

Problem here, is that the Larry Bird player evaluation skillset seems to have run amuck on the board.

Will Galen
12-09-2006, 08:55 PM
I just read this entire thread from start to finish....and my IQ has dropped >100 pts for doing so.

Like him or not, AI is one HUGE draw at the gate and at the sovenier (sp) stand. ANY trade for AI begins with JO or it does not even start.

Gee, how can an IQ go in the hole? Well, it's your word and I don't doubt it. (giggle, giggle, snort)

Regarding JO, I disagree with your contention that talks begin with JO or they don't even start. For one we could be part of a three team trade.

One trade that I've thought of that does involve JO would be if they included Dalembert. Say AI and Dale, for JO and Tins.

Of course if that happened we would probably have to look for a new home because Able likes both those Pacers. He would have a fit.

I think we would be giving up to much though. Philly's having the fire sale not us. I would want a 1st rounder too, which would probably break the deal. Maybe not if it wasn't next years.

Trader Joe
12-09-2006, 09:19 PM
Some are missing the fact that Philly has a lost of ton of leverage by this becoming a public ordeal.

CableKC
12-09-2006, 09:55 PM
Some are missing the fact that Philly has a lost of ton of leverage by this becoming a public ordeal.

I guess everything will fall on whether Billy King ( or is it Knight?....I always get those 2 mixed up ) is as good of a GM as DW is and whether he will be able to be patient enough to sit it out to swing an "Artest for Peja" type deal.

The Sixers have to pull a 1st round pick out of this....but won't get one given the position they are in. I would guess...at best....they can hope for the 2nd best player on the team.....or a small # of prospects with some 2 or 3 year overpaid contracts.

Quis
12-09-2006, 09:56 PM
Yeah, look at the offers on RealGM. There's no way Philly's gonna get a big time All-Star in return for AI. He's not only 30, but an old 30, he makes a ton of cash, has an iffy offcourt attitude, and has demanded a trade. Some decent contracts and a decent pick/prospect is most likely what Philly will be looking for. I love Quis, but he's no AI, and Croshere's contract sure would've been attractive to Philly. As a matter of fact, I've heard Dallas wants him, and if they do get him, expect Austins expiring to be a big part of the deal.

Hicks
12-09-2006, 10:14 PM
If King is smart (that's an "if"), he'll wait a month if he wants any thing close to equal value in return. I think if we'd forced the issue with Ron a couple weeks after he asked to be traded, we'd have gotten someone half as good as Stojakovic.

speakout4
12-10-2006, 01:10 AM
This team can stay as it is and be average or roll the dice and trade for AI and be very competitive or possibly even worse. That's what AI can mean. Based on this team's struggles I would trade for AI for anyone other than JO and reluctantly Granger. Everyone else is chopped liver.

Quis
12-10-2006, 11:41 AM
According to two reports on the Real GM wiretap, both Denver and Dallas are allegedly out of the Iverson Sweepstakes. Denver was the favorite, so it'd be big news if they were out of the running.

This is definitely forcing the 76ers hand. The only teams that would likely want Iverson are the teams that feel he'd put them over the top into contender. And now with Minnesota, Dallas, and Denver all allegedly out of the running, that leaves very few teams left meaning less pull for the 76ers in any possible deal.

Wu-Gambino
12-10-2006, 11:50 AM
I guess everything will fall on whether Billy King ( or is it Knight?....I always get those 2 mixed up ) is as good of a GM as DW is and whether he will be able to be patient enough to sit it out to swing an "Artest for Peja" type deal.
Isn't King one of the worst GM's in the league? Look what he's done over the past few seasons (from Bill Simmons' Atrocious GM Summit):


Just look at what I've done in Philly: Since we made the 2001 Finals, I gave Mutombo a $68 million extension even though he could have been, like, 48 years old for all we knew. I gave $35.5 million to Aaron McKie. I gave $29 million to Eric Snow. I gave $18 million to Greg Buckner. I gave $40 million to Kenny Thomas and $25 million to Brian Skinner. I gave $25 million to Kyle Korver and $60 million to Sam Dalembert last summer. That's $300 million of contracts to guys who were either on the decline or never that good in the first place. Plus, I traded for other bad contracts, guys like Keith Van Horn, Glenn Robinson, Kevin Ollie, you name it. And then, last February, the pinnacle -- dumping three bad contracts for C-Webb, who everyone thought couldn't be traded because of his contract and because he ran with a limp. Now we have an aging team built around two past-their-prime stars and our cap space is killed through 2008. And we completely wasted Iverson's prime, when he was one of the best players of his generation.

indygeezer
12-10-2006, 12:52 PM
So AI is an old 30 and isn't worthy of a JO player....so why do we want him? I remember many of the same people saying Al Harrington was just the player we needed to compliment JO....where are those comments now?

Oh, and what makes you think the Pacer brass actually wants AI? Oh yeah, all those reports we read about in RealGM, that's right.

Quis
12-10-2006, 01:01 PM
So AI is an old 30 and isn't worthy of a JO player....so why do we want him? I remember many of the same people saying Al Harrington was just the player we needed to compliment JO....where are those comments now?

Oh, and what makes you think the Pacer brass actually wants AI? Oh yeah, all those reports we read about in RealGM, that's right.

(1) Because he's a top-10 player, top-5 scorer, and plays with a ton of heart and passion. He'd take a 45 win team like this current Pacers team is, and take them them to the next level and beyond, to being arguably the team to beat in the East.

(2) Al's fine. He's just not a PF, period. It hasn't been Al's fault the team is so streaky, that would be a tough schedule, 8 new players, Stephen Jackson's terrible play and Jermaine O'Neal randomly sitting out games.

(3) Who said for sure the Pacers "brass" wanted him? But the teams biggest need is a shooting guard, and one of the greatest in league history is nowon the market for pennies on the dollar. If Bird & Walsh are content with mediocrity, they'll keep the team as it is. If they wanna take a chance on getting us back to legit contendership, they'll make a strong push for A.I.

CableKC
12-10-2006, 06:09 PM
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/16208531.htm


Taylor Now Interested In Iverson
10th December, 2006 - 12:09 pm
Pioneer Press -
On Friday, Glen Talyor said that there was no chance of Allen Iverson being traded to the Wolves, but on Saturday, he softened his stance.

"I just think Allen Iverson on any team probably makes it better just because at any time, he's hard to stop," Taylor said. "You get towards the end of the game, he's a difficult player to stop. If you had some other guys around him and a guy like K.G. around him, it gives you some strong options at the end. He's a very unique player. A guy like him, (Phoenix's Steve) Nash, maybe (New Jersey's Jason) Kidd, these guys are very creative and probably would be helpful to almost any team with any combination around them.

"McHale would have to find out if this is something Philly wants to do, how bad they want to do it. I would assume a number of teams would have some interest (in Iverson). It's not something you could just do very easily. (Garnett's) contract is so large, you'd have a lot of money tied up in two guys."

If the TWolves have any chance of retaining KG for at least another season.......it would be getting Iverson. He would make enough of a difference on that team to make it to the Playoffs as a 7th / 8th seed. It maybe a 1st round exit.....but IMHO, Management would go a long way to proving to KG that they are trying to build a better core around KG.

SamBear
12-10-2006, 06:41 PM
Updated: Dec. 10, 2006, 5:15 PM ET
Stay cool, Philly, for an answer on The Answer
By Marc Stein
ESPN.com

The message transmitted Sunday from a variety of front-office executives around the league: Philly is trying to trade Allen Iverson as fast as it can.

Sayeth one of those execs: "The feeling I get is that they want to do this in a matter of days."

The feeling I have in response: Mistake!

Big mistake, if those are indeed the Sixers' intentions.

As I was reminded by a Western Conference personnel man Saturday, Sixers president Billy King is a Donnie Walsh disciple, having spent his first four NBA seasons with the Pacers. You'll recall that Walsh was thrust into a similar predicament in Indiana by Ron Artest almost exactly a year ago.

How did Walsh play it?

Patiently ... and expertly. He wasn't afraid to let the rumor mill crank up, subjected his poor ears (and blood pressure) to thousands of phone calls, gradually got teams bidding against each other and ultimately managed to create a market for Artest when conventional wisdom said he'd get nothing for a reputed chemistry-killer who just publicly demanded a trade.

Walsh wound up getting Peja Stojakovic for Artest -- a fine return under the circumstances -- and displayed even shrewder salvage skills by striking a sign-and-trade with the Hornets over the summer that led to the acquisition of Al Harrington after Stojakovic had committed to sign with New Orleans/Oklahoma City.

King is obviously no Walsh, as a longstanding pattern of questionable spending with the Sixers suggests, but he's undeniably positioned to approach this in Walsh-like fashion.

So why wouldn't he?

What's the rush?

To get back in the playoff hunt? Playoffs?

Sorry. Philly needs the highest possible draft pick in June a lot more than it would benefit from rallying out of this 5-14 start for the right to lose in the first round of the playoffs, even if they reside in an Atlantic Division where you're never too far from first place. Winning just two games in the past 35 days, painful as it is to admit, is actually helping the Sixers' long-term outlook. These guys need a top-three pick in the 2007 draft ... badly.

The best part? Iverson has done the hard part for them. This isn't like the summer, when it was King actively shopping Iverson and thus risking a heavy fan backlash because of Iverson's iconic status in the city. This time, Philly finally took a hard-line stance with Iverson on disciplinary matters -- albeit a few years too late, cynics would point out -- which prompted Iverson to take the initiative and ask to be set free.

That takes a good bit of external heat off the Sixers, as does the advent of the inactive list that Walsh deftly used to his advantage last winter.

Before last season, while waiting for a deal to be struck, Philly would have been required to suspend Iverson to keep him away from the team as it now plans. The old rules also stipulated that teams could not suspend players with pay. So the Sixers would have been forced to stop Iverson's checks if they wanted him out of the locker room. Iverson and the Players Association would have never stood for that. Sequestering Iverson under those conditions, at a time when he insists that he's healthy enough to play, would be virtually impossible.

With the new rules ushered in last season, Iverson will get every cent of this season's $17.2 million salary. A paid vacation, in other words, until Philly finds a trade partner.

So we ask again: What's the rush? The NBA trading deadline is 74 days away. Iverson is on paid leave. The uncertainty of Iverson's future will obviously hang over the team until this reaches a conclusion, but so what? Iverson demanding a new address actually gives the Sixers an out if anyone accuses them of tanking to get a better draft pick in June.

They have to do what's best for the organization and their fans. What's best is taking their time and making the best Iverson trade you can possibly make before the Feb. 22 trade buzzer. Philly doesn't even have to worry about sending Iverson somewhere that'll make him happy, as a thank you for his decade-plus of service, because he asked out.

How do I know this is the way to go?

Because that's what King's mentor did. I'm quite sure Walsh, if he could permit himself to help an Eastern Conference rival and advise King, would offer one one-word counsel.

"Wait."

Most teams have played 20 games or so, meaning that only a handful are ready to contemplate the philosophical hugeness of an Iverson bid. After 40 games, more will be in a place to give it more serious thought.

For the Sixers' sake, here's hoping that message was somehow piped in Sunday during their all-day organizational meetings to plot strategy.

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com.

LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2693267)

Bball
12-10-2006, 06:57 PM
Isn't King one of the worst GM's in the league? Look what he's done over the past few seasons (from Bill Simmons' Atrocious GM Summit):


Just look at what I've done in Philly: Since we made the 2001 Finals, I gave Mutombo a $68 million extension even though he could have been, like, 48 years old for all we knew. I gave $35.5 million to Aaron McKie. I gave $29 million to Eric Snow. I gave $18 million to Greg Buckner. I gave $40 million to Kenny Thomas and $25 million to Brian Skinner. I gave $25 million to Kyle Korver and $60 million to Sam Dalembert last summer. That's $300 million of contracts to guys who were either on the decline or never that good in the first place. Plus, I traded for other bad contracts, guys like Keith Van Horn, Glenn Robinson, Kevin Ollie, you name it. And then, last February, the pinnacle -- dumping three bad contracts for C-Webb, who everyone thought couldn't be traded because of his contract and because he ran with a limp. Now we have an aging team built around two past-their-prime stars and our cap space is killed through 2008. And we completely wasted Iverson's prime, when he was one of the best players of his generation.

Sounds like King learned under Walsh how to over-value and pay players...
Isn't this what Walsh has done as well?


-Bball

Pacersfan46
12-10-2006, 08:06 PM
Jesus Christ another one of these stupid "you're not a fan" posts. Match my 39 years and then you can pass judgement on whether I'm a fan or not. Digest decorum doesn't allow me to go any further with my thoughts on you.

If you debate on whether you'd stop being a fan .... you obviously never were a fan. Unless you stop watching the sport, or sports all together fans shouldn't "hang it up". "Match my years", that's pure stupidity. Yes, because you were born before me you get some divine right on knowing what being a fan is.

Like I truly care about your thoughts on me. You don't even ACTUALLY know me. All you know is through your thought process I don't find you to be a true fan. Of course, that truly defines a man. I could be a great father, husband, and man in general .... but whew, you think lowly of me based off 1 internet post. Man, I must be a piece of #*&% now! Shut up. :laugh:

And before you even make your illogical connection between my comment to you, and connecting it to the "I don't care what you think of me" paragraph above, I'm just basing my comments off of what you say, and only attributing it to what I think of you in that one aspect of your life. You said it like you were judging me on a much more personal level, and that's just pure ignorance. So don't even go with the "you're a hypocrite" approach, it won't work.