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View Full Version : Cabbage Needs To Start A Game



wooolus
12-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Anyone agree with me here? It seems that Sarunas is better at pushing the ball and creating ball movement better than Tinsley. As I was watching the game yesterday, the Pacers seem to be playing at a much faster pace everytime Saras in on the floor. Some Saras haters or Tinsley lovers might disagree with me, but I think Tinsley just not quick enough to push the outlet pass up the court. And with Jax having no problem coming off the bench, I want to see Marquis paired with Saras in the back court, this way, there's more play making, shooting and balance on the court. I guess what I am saying is with Sarunas on the court, this team will actually run, anyone agree with me here?

Edit: I also want to add that Tinsley is just as horrible if not worse of a defender as Saras, so don't bring out the defensive card. I can't tell you how many times I screamed at the TV because Tinsley just got blown by by Farmar/Parker/Whoever he was guarding.

D-BONE
12-05-2006, 02:07 PM
Anyone agree with me here? It seems that Sarunas is better at pushing the ball and creating ball movement better than Tinsley. As I was watching the game yesterday, the Pacers seem to be playing at a much faster pace everytime Saras in on the floor. Some Saras haters or Tinsley lovers might disagree with me, but I think Tinsley just not quick enough to push the outlet pass up the court. And with Jax having no problem coming off the bench, I want to see Marquis paired with Saras in the back court, this way, there's more play making, shooting and balance on the court. I guess what I am saying is with Sarunas on the court, this team will actually run, anyone agree with me here?

I'm cool with it. It's worth a try. Jack and Tins to the Bench where they can possibly be more effective against opposing 2nd units with their bludgeon ball techniques.

Can we also replace Foster with Baston then in the starting 5?

So bench would now be Tins, DA, Jack, DG, Jeff?? Could that work? Again, what've we got to lose?

wooolus
12-05-2006, 02:09 PM
I think many of our problems are coming from too much Point Guard penetration. One of the reason that Jermaine leads the league in blockshots is that the point guard literally can ignore what Tinsley calls defense and cut right to the paint everytime without too much effort.

Anthem
12-05-2006, 02:13 PM
I think many of our problems are coming from too much Point Guard penetration. One of the reason that Jermaine leads the league in blockshots is that the point guard literally can ignore what Tinsley calls defense and cut right to the paint everytime without too much effort.
True. But Sarunas is worse.

wooolus
12-05-2006, 02:16 PM
True. But Sarunas is worse.


Not yesterday, at Least Sarunas tried, all Tinsley did was a friendly tap on the back area when the guy blows by.

maragin
12-05-2006, 02:50 PM
A factor is yesterday's game was it was really Tinsley vs Parker and Saras vs Farmar. Parker is, AFAIK, their defensive PG. Farmar doesn't apply alot of pressure, and it gave Saras some breathing room that Tinsley wasn't afforded.

I like our starting 5, but do like the switch out that brings in Baston and Saras.

D-BONE
12-05-2006, 02:53 PM
I'm not honestly so sure anymore that we sacrifice that much more D with Saras for Tins. However, the issue of Saras's ability to handle in some matchups does worry me some. That would be the idea of putting Quis in the starting backcourt with him-to alleviate some of that issue.

Slick Pinkham
12-05-2006, 03:18 PM
The main defensive issue for the Pacers is the PG allowing the opposing PG to penetrate like a knife through hot butter.

I think replacing Tins with Saras is like switching brands of butter.

ALF68
12-05-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm cool with it. It's worth a try. Jack and Tins to the Bench where they can possibly be more effective against opposing 2nd units with their bludgeon ball techniques.

Can we also replace Foster with Baston then in the starting 5?

So bench would now be Tins, DA, Jack, DG, Jeff?? Could that work? Again, what've we got to lose?
Nothing.

Kestas
12-05-2006, 04:09 PM
I think that for this coach and his system Tinsley is the starting PG. Saras is not Carlisle's style, it's actually suprising he's been so good (at times) this year. I expected worse. maybe I'm raving, but it looks as if Saras is still thinking about the solid starting position even in the current layout of the Pacers and will try to push for it.. what's really unfortunate though is that the Pacers are still not looking like a title contender...

Unclebuck
12-05-2006, 04:14 PM
I don't want Tinsley and Jackason infecting the second unit.

skyfire
12-05-2006, 05:21 PM
I think Tins and Jax will stay part of the first team until one or both of them is dealt sometime before the deadline. Their recent play have probobly bought them some trade value, no need to destroy that by sending them to the bench.

Seed
12-05-2006, 05:35 PM
I think DA-Saras / Quis-Saras is a better backcourt pairing than Saras-Jax, so I think he should come off the bench for now. Plus he is probably more effective with guys like DG, Baston, DH than with Al, Foster.
Also I don't think it will do good for Tins to come off the bench. He should be the starter or not at all.

wooolus
12-05-2006, 05:44 PM
I don't want Tinsley and Jackason infecting the second unit.

I seriously don't mind Jax's play this season. He has some forces, but mostly he's been in the flow. But honestly, Tinsley is pissing me off with his non-existance on defense, I would make a case for Greene over him in the second unit, because Tinsley doesn't push the ball the way this offense is suppose to, and his man usually have career nights against him. I mean, average PGs would look like Magic Johnson when they play Tinsley.

ALF68
12-05-2006, 06:04 PM
I think Tins and Jax will stay part of the first team until one or both of them is dealt sometime before the deadline. Their recent play have probobly bought them some trade value, no need to destroy that by sending them to the bench.

I have my fingers crossed and hope that your are right.

rimock31
12-05-2006, 07:02 PM
As far as defense, yeah saras and tinsley both aren't great and i'm glad to see that people are starting to get over the notion that tinsley is enough of a better defender for it to have any significance. More importantly, I think the most important factor when discussing the way both these guys play defense is effort. Sarunas knows he's no defensive stopped, but he still gives 100% on every defensive posession. Tinsley on the other hand, plays one posession and takes the next 5 off.

ssmall
12-05-2006, 07:12 PM
I don't want Tinsley and Jackason infecting the second unit.
Even if it would actually make our first unit good?
Anyway my opinion is that Runi does good on worse than average PG's and is a great second PG who seems to gain more confidence this season. I dont think he is a starter, at least not on this team. I like him where he is and i wont bash him after every game he sucks which thank god is less and less the further we go. We might aswell try to start him and he might even do good, he is just not the sollution im afraid. Neither is Tinsley and im not saying it becouse he did bad on one night or another, i just dont see him that good.

gedisg
12-05-2006, 09:34 PM
Giving saras the start may give the boost this team needs to suceed. I think it's a great idea. But it's all up to the coaches to decide not us.

AesopRockOn
12-05-2006, 10:04 PM
Giving saras the start may give the boost this team needs to suceed. I think it's a great idea. But it's all up to the coaches to decide not us.

Lol. Is this necessary?

gedisg
12-05-2006, 10:19 PM
i guess not but the idea may stirr up controversy and we working together may bring change within the team.

NPFII
12-06-2006, 06:48 AM
I foresee a major overhaul of this team before the Jan trade deadline. I wouldnt be surprised if at least 4 of the 5 starters are traded.

As the aftermath of that - my guess is that Sarunas will get the starting PG role, the "keys" to the team, and the Pacers will never ever play "JO iso ball" again.

able
12-06-2006, 07:23 AM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Alpolloloco
12-06-2006, 09:08 AM
I foresee a major overhaul of this team before the Jan trade deadline. I wouldnt be surprised if at least 4 of the 5 starters are traded.

As the aftermath of that - my guess is that Sarunas will get the starting PG role, the "keys" to the team, and the Pacers will never ever play "JO iso ball" again.

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Naptown_Seth
12-06-2006, 11:23 AM
Yeesh.

I need to watch more games because everytime I tune in I see teams using the physical disadvantages of Saras and Armstrong to attack even more. At least with Tinsley they usually are running a PnR to get the PG free.

Admittedly Tinsley has been uninspiring so far this year, but I think a lot more of it is his offensive effort outside of his very nice shooting nights. He hasn't often looked like the super playmaker that makes his defensive problems acceptable.

Still I see Tinsley getting beat by starters, I see Saras getting beat by backups. What about that suggests that it gets better with Saras starting?

He's good in his bench role for the most part and the team needs that just as much. I'll take him getting beat by Farmar if he can go back to the other end and run a PnR with Baston.


Let's be fair, the EFFORT the starters showed the last 2 games was poor. That doesn't make them less talented. The solution has to be great effort from your best players. No teams really win much with lesser talent playing hard. They might beat the lazy teams, but in the crunch the more talented teams will pick up their effort and start to beat up the overachievers.

Neither talent nor energy is enough to carry a team. They gotta have both.

ALF68
12-06-2006, 12:12 PM
Yeesh.

I need to watch more games because everytime I tune in I see teams using the physical disadvantages of Saras and Armstrong to attack even more. At least with Tinsley they usually are running a PnR to get the PG free.

Admittedly Tinsley has been uninspiring so far this year, but I think a lot more of it is his offensive effort outside of his very nice shooting nights. He hasn't often looked like the super playmaker that makes his defensive problems acceptable.

Still I see Tinsley getting beat by starters, I see Saras getting beat by backups. What about that suggests that it gets better with Saras starting?

He's good in his bench role for the most part and the team needs that just as much. I'll take him getting beat by Farmar if he can go back to the other end and run a PnR with Baston.


Let's be fair, the EFFORT the starters showed the last 2 games was poor. That doesn't make them less talented. The solution has to be great effort from your best players. No teams really win much with lesser talent playing hard. They might beat the lazy teams, but in the crunch the more talented teams will pick up their effort and start to beat up the overachievers.

Neither talent nor energy is enough to carry a team. They gotta have both.
Seth, I would recomend that you watch some of the old tapes of Bob Knight's Indiana Hoosiers, where they were almost always ovematched talent wise, but found ways to compensate for this and win a ton of games.


TALENT WITHOUT EFFORT IS A TERRIBLE WASTE OF THAT TALENT.

DarkDreams
12-06-2006, 02:09 PM
Taken from: http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_061206.html

Q. With all the trouble at shooting guard, why not put Sarunas Jasikevicius in? He is occasionally playing a lot of time off the bench and being highly productive like (Monday) against the Lakers he played almost 30 minutes and was the second-top scorer for the team. Like one of the previous questions couldn't he also add some passion to the starting lineup? (From Chris in Christchurch, New Zealand)

A. This one's been on my radar for awhile, too, because of the adjustments Jasikevicius has made to his game. Last year he clearly wasn't comfortable bouncing between point guard and shooting guard. He still might not like it very much once a point guard, always a point guard but he has played quite effectively when paired with either Darrell Armstrong or Jamaal Tinsley at the point. Having two guards with pass-first mindsets frequently helps get the offense moving and Jasikevicius' 3-point shooting stroke would also be a welcome threat for the first unit.

He also tends to defy convention. Though perceived to be a slower player, Jasikevicius manages to get inside defenses to draw fouls quite a bit. He attempts 7.0 free throws per 48 minutes, the second-highest number on the team to Jermaine O'Neal's 7.6. Stephen Jackson and Tinsley, in contrast, attempt just 5.2. There's no question Jasikevicius plays with intensity, energy and passion and is constantly looking up the floor to push the tempo. His turnover numbers are high because he occasionally makes risky decisions but he also has the ability to create shots from thin air.

The primary concern, and it's a big one, would be defense. Would you really want him matched up against the likes of Kobe Bryant, Ray Allen, Jason Richardson, Grant Hill, etc.? Though he has made big strides in terms of playing team defense, one-on-one matchups against some of the most athletic and explosive scorers in the game would probably prove too daunting a challenge. Jasikevicius is primarily an offensive player, and a good one at that. But the Pacers' biggest problem at the moment is defense. That doesn't bode well for moving Saras up to the first unit.

DeS
12-06-2006, 02:38 PM
Still I see Tinsley getting beat by starters, I see Saras getting beat by backups. What about that suggests that it gets better with Saras starting?
I think it's not about the PG getting beat by starters or backups - it's about a team getting beat by other team. The last game Saras played backups and also the starters (~30min.). Still the team with him was +6, while Tinsley was -21 (let's say he played only against the starters (i don't wan't to get involved into the +/- battles, but i guess this was one of the reasons RC took Tins out of the game). This makes the valid point for people to question the starting PG position. Yet another thing is that Saras is getting more and more playing time (it means that RC recognizes him being more and more useful). Otoh...


He's good in his bench role for the most part and the team needs that just as much. I'll take him getting beat by Farmar if he can go back to the other end and run a PnR with Baston.
Yea - it's a thing of beauty :) I agree with You here and I agree with UB. There is no reason for coach to dismantle the successful energy group, unless he will be absolutely unable to "convince" the starters to provide more energy. I don't believe Saras would excell with a starting group. I want to see him developing with a second group, getting more cinsistency and confidence and being a part of Pacers success (let's hope for the best;).

Pitons
12-06-2006, 03:23 PM
I think Saras is doing fine with the second unit, no reason to change something yet.
More effort from starters - that's all I want. They should be carrying the team to victories first. Our second unit has some potential regarding other teams' "scrubs", we need a better attitude from starters as mentioned.

But if the situation lasts, then some changes should be made.