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odeez
12-05-2006, 02:26 AM
It looks like everyone is sleeping in Indiana or just sick to their stomachs over losing tonight. Three in a row. I don't have much to say just feeling let down with our play. I know that it is the last game of the road trip, but we have to find a way to win games like tonight. We had our chance when Kobe went down. I kept wondering where Al was at all night. I didn't actually watch the game on TV, it was a Gamecast night. So someone who watched give us something positive beside Baston playing good tonight.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-05-2006, 02:28 AM
I actually already posted this in the game thread but I want it in the post game thread. So I'm copy/pasting.


I think a critical coaching error lost this game. At the 9:21 mark in the fourth the Lakers called a timeout. Runi, Armstrong,Daniels, Granger and Baston were on the floor. We'd just cut the lead to ten. Runi was in for 12+ minutes, Armstrong for about 5, Daniels about 6, Baston about 7 and Granger about 9. We're on the last game of a long road trip. These guys are scratching and clawing to get back in this game and are tired. The whole team is standing on the sidelines, so nobody is just maxin' and relaxin' they're ready to come in. We come out of the timeout with the same tired lineup and promptly miss our next five shots when fresh legs would've been the answer at that point. I realize these guys played their hearts out and all but come on 10 point game, 9 minutes to go, completely fresh starting five, no Kobe, Odom has 5 fouls if we convert just two of those five possesions it changes the last 9 minutes completely.

bnd45
12-05-2006, 02:33 AM
Very bad game. Just a flat effort from the blue & gold tonight. Lakers gave us a chance in the middle fo the 4th but we couldn't catch fire.

Positives: Baston played really well tonight. He played his way into the rotation tonight after Rick had been giving him a handful of minutes the last few games.

Oh yeah and Runi played solid. Other than that the rest of the team was already thinking about their in-flight meals on the way home.

Like I said earlier, 9-10 is close enough to 10-9. Should be better, but at least we aren't worse.

Quis
12-05-2006, 02:45 AM
Roster movement must be made. Now's the time to make a strong push for Corey Maggette imo. Quis + Harrison might just get it done.

denyfizle
12-05-2006, 02:52 AM
it will never happen but damn please fire Carlisle. well we just resigned him, so there goes the real solution.

odeez
12-05-2006, 02:57 AM
Roster movement must be made. Now's the time to make a strong push for Corey Maggette imo. Quis + Harrison might just get it done.

You might just have something there... I do agree something has to be done. I believe many people have said we should wait til twenty games before we pass judgement, well I would say that we are close enough.

A change must be made!

Aw Heck
12-05-2006, 02:59 AM
Well, the Pacers were plagued by the same problems they have been all season. Rebounding was a problem (outrebounded 41-28). Defense was a problem (Lakers scored 60 pts in the first half and shot 51% for the game). Pacers also struggled to score and found themselves down 20 pts in the first half (Jeez, how many games has that happened this season? I've lost count.)

You could attribute all these problems to fatigue I guess. That would be understandable. However, they've had these problems all season, with little to no improvement.

JO had a double-double tonight, but he was REALLY limited by his foul trouble. After he picked up his first foul in the first quarter, he stopped playing aggressive defense. Kwame Brown (?!) just went to town on him because JO was scared to foul. He did end up fouling out, so maybe he knew what was coming. Still, it didn't help out that Kwame could just score at will.

And how about Maceo Baston? Best game in his NBA career. But it wasn't just his scoring. I thought he played good defense and just good overall while he was in there.
----------------------------------------------------------

I know we're just a little over a month into the season. We're just one game under .500. It's still early. There's plenty of time for improvement. BUT...

If we're still exhibiting the exact same problems one month from now, isn't it time for a change? By that point, it should be clear that something doesn't fit. Be it player(s), coach, or style of play, something probably needs to change.

I'd lean more towards moving player(s) than anything else. Or just changing the style of play. But if we're really committed to the uptempo style, then it's time to bring in Rick Adelman. That would probably have to wait until the offseason, of course. Hell, maybe management needs a change. I don't know. Kiki Vandeweghe is available...

All I know is that something isn't working. And I don't think it's going to solve itself.

Eindar
12-05-2006, 03:01 AM
I think at this point, I'm having a little Pacers hangover after coming to the realization that we're probably going to be a .500 team again, and don't have a draft pick this year. To me, this means we're going to be treading water or slowly sinking until we make 2 or more moves. I enjoy that the players like each other, but I'd also like to see some wins. Just a little disheartening to think that we're not contending, but we're not really improving either. That's a statement I haven't been able to say since, what, 1993?

Aw Heck
12-05-2006, 03:06 AM
I think a critical coaching error lost this game. At the 9:21 mark in the fourth the Lakers called a timeout. Runi, Armstrong,Daniels, Granger and Baston were on the floor. We'd just cut the lead to ten. Runi was in for 12+ minutes, Armstrong for about 5, Daniels about 6, Baston about 7 and Granger about 9. We're on the last game of a long road trip. These guys are scratching and clawing to get back in this game and are tired. The whole team is standing on the sidelines, so nobody is just maxin' and relaxin' they're ready to come in. We come out of the timeout with the same tired lineup and promptly miss our next five shots when fresh legs would've been the answer at that point. I realize these guys played their hearts out and all but come on 10 point game, 9 minutes to go, completely fresh starting five, no Kobe, Odom has 5 fouls if we convert just two of those five possesions it changes the last 9 minutes completely.
You're probably right, but that's a no-win situation for Carlisle.

If he put fresh legs in and they struggled, we'd see plenty of posts like: "Stupid Carlisle and his egg timer! There he goes, making decisions based on what his little card tells him! Why did he take out that lineup? They were playing well and he took them out!"

Anyway, I think the game was lost long before that situation.

croz24
12-05-2006, 03:07 AM
jo to chicago for thomas, deng, and nyk 1st rd pick. add in some fillers on both ends and we've got ourselves a deal.

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2006, 03:14 AM
I agree that it was a mistake to leave Armstrong out there, but I think Sarunas looked fine energy-wise past that point. DA never did look solid, despite his energy he was overmatched.

Baston I thought looked fine still too. But I did think to myself "hey, F Kobe, if Phil won't play him who cares - get Tins and either Al or Jack back out there right now to help with some scoring now that you are back in it".

As you noted they kept going with what they had and it cost them.


Honestly, while JO scored pretty well all night, almost all of it was away from the rim, even the low post turnarounds and stuff. I felt like JO and Harrington were big disappointments against Walton and Kwame. They actually were outplayed by them most of the night, and JO didn't really get it going till his final return IMO.

Sarunas played his best game of the year. Granted most of it was vs Farmar and he still had some really poor mistakes. But for the most part he made the offense go, he got things started when he was out there.

Baston was also outstanding, definitely the best he's played yet. Some of it was Bynum, but even the few times he was in against Brown he played it well. It wasn't the dunks that impressed me, those were plays he's been making and are his speciality. No, I was impressed by his court awareness which often led to him making better defensive plays overall and helped get him a couple of his buckets.

The oop was not one of them, that was just standard Maccabi PnR done to perfection. Man do I wish we could see 2-3 of those every game. That pass by Saras was the best pass he's made all year (to the rim, just ahead of Odom's hands). Only Baston could get that ball, and credit him for being deceptively quick up to it. I didn't think they had it and then all of the sudden he was throwing it down.

Granger was a train-wreck half the time (per usual) and then brilliant at other times. I know it's the standard line out of me by this point, but he's just so green. His best offensive play was when the ball got bounced around and came back to him and he took it to the lane. It just shows that he can get a shot similar to what Daniels gets if he will just get comfortable putting the dribble down to the lane.

Of course Danny also had the dud play of the night when he let the rim block a wide-open dunk. He also just left Odom on a break once where I was saying "hey, where are you going, the guy you are with has the ball still". Oh well, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Jack was so-so. We knew that Kobe would get the best of him but he had a few chances to really make him pay that he got outplayed on (like that runout for a layup that got blocked - good idea, bad execution/ability at the end).

Tinsley - unimpressive, mostly outplayed by Parker and that's not acceptable anymore than JO and Al struggling with Brown and Walton was.


If it was just Kobe and Odom then I could see. I know the Lakers have some other talent, but come on, Al and JO are supposed to be strong advantages, and Tins vs Parker should be one too. Didn't look like it tonight.

Foster was pleantly active on offense tonight, but he was toasted pretty regularly on defense himself. Baston was often playing in place of Jeff, and for good reason considering the defense.

The fact is that Kobe had limited minutes and the Pacers still couldn't get it done. I guess the positive is that Sarunas and Baston both showed strong energy and solid games, and Granger kept the energy up even after the embarrassing dunk miss and made some strong plays.


2 other signs of hope - chemistry plays. The Jack runout I mentioned was not shown on TV but just as a shot was going up I saw him look at Tins who was under the rim and ready to catch the made shot. Jack immediate took off which was a smart way to pressure Kobe. The director missed the play till the end which featured Jack ahead of everyone and with the ball...but then Kobe punked him out.

The point is that you could see he and Tins have that eye-contact and awareness.

The other was a whip pass to a cutting Sarunas that was tipped out (IIRC, or was it just a TO). They missed the play that time, but it was a killer read between two guys. Strong pass by JO, the kind of stuff you want to see between a PG and JO in the post. Later in the game they were successful on a less spectacular but similar play with JO feeding Saras for the score.

So maybe some things are coming together. I wouldn't read too much into the comeback as most of that featured Kobe on the bench, and I can't help but think that had some part in it. ;)


And then there is the road-home thing. It's over now. The teams get tougher but at least they'll be at Conseco a lot more than they have been. I hope that helps. Wins at home over ORL and POR would be nice, it would make them 2-1 vs ORL on the year.

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2006, 03:24 AM
As for a deal, I can agree that the team might be 10-20 games away from having to consider at least one pretty meaningful deal. They need to prove that these last 2 games were just the ends of a road trip. Seemed like there was some improvement when Foster became a starter. If they can make good on that at Conseco then it will be easy to blow off those last 2 losses.

NPFII
12-05-2006, 07:05 AM
...

The oop was not one of them, that was just standard Maccabi PnR done to perfection. Man do I wish we could see 2-3 of those every game. That pass by Saras was the best pass he's made all year (to the rim, just ahead of Odom's hands). Only Baston could get that ball, and credit him for being deceptively quick up to it. I didn't think they had it and then all of the sudden he was throwing it down.

...

Finally, you are tasting the 1st signs of the extraordinary Maccabi team that dominated Europe these past following years. Add to Saras & Baston Toronto's Anthony Parker as the prime defender and a 1on1 scorer when the shot clock winds down. Add also Nicola Vujcic - the best Center in Europe (had a tripple-double last week - VERY rare in 40 min Euroleague games) - plays a lot like Vlade Divac, and you can start to see what all the "Euro" fans (and I'm guessing - Larry Bird?) are raving all about.

After the LA game, if I'm Bird I'm on the phone to Bryan Colangelo and to Shimon Mizrahi asking about Parker & Vujcic, and paying anything I've got except JO to make it happen.

#31
12-05-2006, 08:30 AM
Reggie was there! He was rolling his eyes the whole game hehe. Why didnt they just use him for 8 seconds 8 pts...? :)

Seed
12-05-2006, 08:43 AM
Finally, you are tasting the 1st signs of the extraordinary Maccabi team that dominated Europe these past following years. Add to Saras & Baston Toronto's Anthony Parker as the prime defender and a 1on1 scorer when the shot clock winds down. Add also Nicola Vujcic - the best Center in Europe (had a tripple-double last week - VERY rare in 40 min Euroleague games) - plays a lot like Vlade Divac, and you can start to see what all the "Euro" fans (and I'm guessing - Larry Bird?) are raving all about.

After the LA game, if I'm Bird I'm on the phone to Bryan Colangelo and to Shimon Mizrahi asking about Parker & Vujcic, and paying anything I've got except JO to make it happen.
Maccabi was a monster in Euro standards, mostly because these guys connected well and covered each others bads by team play. but if you judge them as separate talents I think only AP is cut to be a top NBA starter.
Saras & Baston could provide excellent support from the bench in NBA terms. Vujcic is a wonder, but he is fragile and can not hold as a starter for a full NBA season.


Other than that - regarding the game itself, I agree with those relating it to the schedule. I assume we will bounce back after some home games if everyone stays healthy. Also Jax is bound to find his shot sometime.

D-BONE
12-05-2006, 09:05 AM
This has been discussed at times, but I thought it painfully evident last night especially given the contrast between starter and bench play.

When the starters were on the floor, or any combination of players that would seem to include at least two of Tins, JO, and Jack, was the ball ever reversed even once on an offensive possession? It would have had to been a pretty paltry number of times.

I could have sworn it was the return of slog ball last night. Iso city with the ball grinding to a halt in the post on one side of the floor as the shot clock wound down. If not that then one pass and a quick shot.

Is it just related to the starters overall lack of energy or is it an indication that the new offensive philosphy is on its way to the scrap heap? Is it the excecution or the coaching?

All I observe is that our first unit seems entirely incapabe of good ball and player movement in the half court and the ability to break and break succesfully. Watching them play offense is like having teeth pulled and since they aren't exceptionally good at D to offset it what's the use?

I suppose they can have their 15-20 more games. Whatever it supposedly should take them to "gel" or get a representative sample for assessment. At this point I wouldn't complain about something radical like Adelman and a player overhaul though. This team's just not that good. I'm not sure there's anybody I wouldn't give up assuming we get value in return.

No long road trip excuses either. They already got a free pass for that in Denver. That opening lethargy is inexcusable.

Unclebuck
12-05-2006, 09:59 AM
When the starters were on the floor, or any combination of players that would seem to include at least two of Tins, JO, and Jack, was the ball ever reversed even once on an offensive possession? It would have had to been a pretty paltry number of times.

I could have sworn it was the return of slog ball last night. Iso city with the ball grinding to a halt in the post on one side of the floor as the shot clock wound down. If not that then one pass and a quick shot.

Is it just related to the starters overall lack of energy or is it an indication that the new offensive philosphy is on its way to the scrap heap? Is it the excecution or the coaching?

All I observe is that our first unit seems entirely incapabe of good ball and player movement in the half court and the ability to break and break succesfully. Watching them play offense is like having teeth pulled and since they aren't exceptionally good at D to offset it what's the use?




It is as simple as this (keep in mind that Rick tried to get better ball movement for the first unit, but then JO pulled rank by going over Rick's head) the Pacers starting 5 have 4 players who like to dominant the ball who like to be able to do their own thing - their isn't much Rick can do.

It starts with Jamaal he has turned into "scoring Tinsley" he dominates the ball he tries to always either score or make the scoring pass. Last night against Smush Parker, an excellent defender and a Lakers team that is very well coached defensively (extremely well coached) Jamaal was shut down. Odom also defended Al extremely well, he got out on him and cut off the three point shot.

But to answer your question, I blame the type of players we have in the starting lineup.


But what disturbs me the most about this team - is the Pacers help defense is absolutely horrible - if someone gets beat there might be one guy to help, but then no one ever helps the helper, no one ever reacts to the help. Pacers are a horribly coached defensive basketball team. Person and Burke have done a horrible job, Rick needs to take over the defense starting right now. Watching the game last night and seeing how the Lakers play team defense was a joy to behold, and then watching the Pacers it was disturbing. Pacers are very selfish defensively.

Edit: Kwame Brown's 5 best games of his NBA career I swear must be against JO - he always plays well against him

rimock31
12-05-2006, 12:13 PM
I have no doubt about Saras/Baston being able to play as starters in the NBA. Anthony Parker has had Sam Mitchell's confidence from day 1, despite making as many mistakes as Baston/Sarunas make with the Pacers. As a result, he's gaining the confidence and consistency that's needed in order to make the adjustment to the NBA level. I still think RC is a great coach but the wrong coach for this Pacers team. This team clearly needs an identity and right now, there's way too many different viewpoints as to what it should be.

CableKC
12-05-2006, 01:59 PM
Roster movement must be made. Now's the time to make a strong push for Corey Maggette imo. Quis + Harrison might just get it done.
Wait a sec....did someone highjack Quis' PD login?

I'm guessing that this is a simple type-O.....:hmm:

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2006, 02:30 PM
This has been discussed at times, but I thought it painfully evident last night especially given the contrast between starter and bench play.

When the starters were on the floor, or any combination of players that would seem to include at least two of Tins, JO, and Jack, was the ball ever reversed even once on an offensive possession? It would have had to been a pretty paltry number of times.

I could have sworn it was the return of slog ball last night. Iso city with the ball grinding to a halt in the post on one side of the floor as the shot clock wound down. If not that then one pass and a quick shot.

Is it just related to the starters overall lack of energy or is it an indication that the new offensive philosphy is on its way to the scrap heap? Is it the excecution or the coaching?

All I observe is that our first unit seems entirely incapabe of good ball and player movement in the half court and the ability to break and break succesfully. Watching them play offense is like having teeth pulled and since they aren't exceptionally good at D to offset it what's the use?

I suppose they can have their 15-20 more games. Whatever it supposedly should take them to "gel" or get a representative sample for assessment. At this point I wouldn't complain about something radical like Adelman and a player overhaul though. This team's just not that good. I'm not sure there's anybody I wouldn't give up assuming we get value in return.

No long road trip excuses either. They already got a free pass for that in Denver. That opening lethargy is inexcusable.
I wouldn't call it a return to slog ball. Especially considering the sets the 2nd unit ran. IMO it was just lack of full effort.

The ball reversal thing is exactly what I mean by "effort". Yes guys will move up and down the court and stuff, but mental effort and even the physical will to go the extra step was lacking in the starting unit. The main guys that to me showed a "will to win" were Sarunas, Baston and Granger.

The fact is that all 3 of those players are flawed, so you don't want to have to rely on them as your MAIN effort guys. The Pacers needed a lot more out of JO, Al, Tins and Jack than they got. I didn't think Jack was quite as bad as the rest. His offense has just stunk thanks to the shot, and to no suprise (well to Jack haters it is) he limited his shots which IMO left him a bit out of the offensive loop. That part was probably for the best. JO, Al and Tins though are guys you need to bring it.

I thought JO got into that mindset in the 4th, very likely due to watching the bench get back in it. Too bad it didn't start sooner.



but then no one ever helps the helper,
QFT
That's a big problem, rotation and movement away from the play. Too many guys take time off when the play moves away from them.


I also agree about the road trip excuse. It shouldn't have been as nearly applicable here. Denver was 4 in 5, but LA should have featured a BETTER start than the Denver game, not worse. In DEN the wall was in the third, not the first. They got behind but were still in the game till the 3rd. This one started up right where the 2nd half of the DEN game ended.

Naptown_Seth
12-05-2006, 02:36 PM
Finally, you are tasting the 1st signs of the extraordinary Maccabi team that dominated Europe these past following years.
I've said repeatedly, even when complaining about either of their NBA games, that both players can run a PnR extremely well. Just a week or so ago I said Sarunas was strong at this, standard for Euro players.

And for Baston my comments have been that if you put him into familiar situations he's going to excel. The problem is that you just can't make an NBA game instantly Euro-style. Moments will happen, but most of the time it's not going to be open to Euro plays.

I do think that Saras-Harrison was a killer PnR option last year and that Baston makes an even better pairing with Runi.

Is there a doubt in any fan's mind that Rick intentionally has been going to Baston and put them in PnR sets? He's seeing it work and based on everything I've seen from RC he'll milk it till he at least sees it flop once. He might have a quick trigger on failure, but for as long as it works he'll return to it.

It will be interesting to see how this applies back East.


Another PnR note this made me think of - did you notice how LITTLE Denver and LAL ran their own PnR? LA is triangle of course, so it's not that surprising really. But after seeing the Pacers get punished by SEA and GS with it, it's kinda odd that DEN and LAL did far worse damage and hardly ever went to it.

Since86
12-05-2006, 03:23 PM
Very bad game. Just a flat effort from the blue & gold tonight. Lakers gave us a chance in the middle fo the 4th but we couldn't catch fire.

Did we even watch the same game? Not being able to hit a shot doesn't consitute bad effort.

I think they showed a hell of a lot of effort considering it being the last road game in their longest road stretch of the season. Playing 6 road games in what, 9 or 10 days is extremely hard to do. Take that into consideration that they fought back from being 20+ down in the first half to even make the fourth quarter interesting is nothing to scoff at.

They could have easily quit and easily been beaten 30+. I was very impressed with their will to keep playing.

Effort wasn't the problem last night. Dead legs was the problem.

maragin
12-05-2006, 03:40 PM
Since I live in LA, this is one of the few Pacers games I got to see without going to a sports bar. With the time differential, they usually start around 4 PM, which means I just get to watch the box score/ play by play.

I'd seen a few Lakers games on the local channels, and have been pretty impressed with them this year. Their second unit is much better than it was last year. I expected us to lose this one (winner: predict the score), but I'm more interested in seeing how our team is coming together.

A few thoughts:

Saras takes more shots after the whistle/ buzzer than anyone I've seen. He'll shoot at either basket, even on one Laker ball IIRC.

As bad as the early Laker run was to watch, the real painful one came when we were making all the defensive stops (and the Lakers kept turning it over) yet we couldn't put the ball through the hoop.

Saras played as well as I've ever seen him, and I think that might have something to do with playing against Farmar.

Good to see Maceo get in the mix. Turiaf's block on him was pretty hilarious (He congratulated him afterwards). Almost as good as Danny's self block. It was good to see him get back and keep playing after something like that.

I was disappointed we didn't have more of Foster during the mid late game, but Baston was having a good game. I like him as a facilitator for almost everything, and it would have been good to get him in there before the late game when he could become a FT liability. Also, I know it's just me, but it seemed like we missed to painful FTs down the stretch when we were trying to keep it close.

I'd be interested to know exactly what happened on Harrington's tech.

In Rick's postgame interview with the local Fox guy, he looked very tired. He also shot down some question the guy had about getting down in the first quarter and it being a mental hurdle the players had to overcome. He looked him right in the eye and said "I don't believe in any of that." It was a classic delivery.

I didn't like some of our turnovers that came from driving into heavy traffic. (Quis and Saras) Just sloppy looking stuff.

We did a good job of drawing fouls during the third period. Basically put Bynum and Brown on the bench.

Darrell Armstrong... forgetting to take off his warmup... getting us a delay of game warning. Heh.

Several of our fouls were "smart fouls" that kept them from easy points. Was good to see.

In watching the game, I don't think JO and Kwame like each other. They were going hard at each other all night. Both played well I thought.

Lamar and Kobe seemed to score at will. The defense on them looked pretty good, they just hit it anyway.

Marquis's free throws looked ugly.

I look forward to these guys getting some sleep. They've played more road games than any other team in the league so far. (85% sure)

One of Maceo's follows to possible JO's shot looked like he could have brought down the backboard (didn't matter, but would have been sweet). Was good anticipation.

Ronnie Turiaf is a great energy/gel/teammate guy for the Lakers.

I like that Carlisle is still playing with the rotations, figurinng out what works. I'm a huge fan of a very short rotation, but I think going a bit deeper with the Pacers is prudent. I like sticking with our current starting 5, and finding the best mix of others throughout the course of the game. I'd prefer Tinsley get used as the 4th option, and do a bit more drive-kick.

JO looked really dominant when he came back into the game with 8 minutes left in the 4th (even with 5 fouls). Crashed the boards, and was almost scoring at will.

Best crowd chant of the year: "We want Tacos clap clap clapclapclap"
(When the Lakers hold the opponent to less than 90 points, Jack in the Box restaurant gives away free tacos.)

With Baston's play tonight, I'd be interested in seeing which teams would be interested in trading for Harrison.

That's it, I've rambled enough. I'd like to see us keep the Orlando game competitive, and thump Portland.

D-BONE
12-05-2006, 04:01 PM
In Rick's postgame interview with the local Fox guy, he looked very tired. He also shot down some question the guy had about getting down in the first quarter and it being a mental hurdle the players had to overcome. He looked him right in the eye and said "I don't believe in any of that." It was a classic delivery.


With Baston's play tonight, I'd be interested in seeing which teams would be interested in trading for Harrison.

That's it, I've rambled enough. I'd like to see us keep the Orlando game competitive, and thump Portland.

Graph 1: I'm sure that the denial was entertaining but I think RC has to recognize that there's got to be something behind the slow start business.

Graph 2: I'm with you on that-regardless of Baston's play.

Graph 3: I'd like to see us BEAT Orlando and thump Portland.

bnd45
12-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Did we even watch the same game? Not being able to hit a shot doesn't consitute bad effort.

I think they showed a hell of a lot of effort considering it being the last road game in their longest road stretch of the season. Playing 6 road games in what, 9 or 10 days is extremely hard to do. Take that into consideration that they fought back from being 20+ down in the first half to even make the fourth quarter interesting is nothing to scoff at.

They could have easily quit and easily been beaten 30+. I was very impressed with their will to keep playing.

Effort wasn't the problem last night. Dead legs was the problem.

The first three quarters were defintiely flat and the starters were flat for the entire game. (There was the run in the 2nd when Baston was getting all his dunks) The bench refused to lose by 30 which was nice to see, but you can't argue that the starters came to play last night. Early on Slick commented that JO didn't look right and his play was very sluggish (yeah, I know he picked up a double-double, but it was a very quiet 18-11)

Evan_The_Dude
12-05-2006, 06:04 PM
I'm in the mood to hear the famous Jim Mora "sucked" speech being said to the Pacers. I honestly have no confidence in this team. Something needs to change. Til then, I won't be wasting any more late nights staying up watching this team work itself into lottery position. At this point I'd rather not go to work sleepy.

NuffSaid
12-05-2006, 06:42 PM
You're probably right, but that's a no-win situation for Carlisle.

If he put fresh legs in and they struggled, we'd see plenty of posts like: "Stupid Carlisle and his egg timer! There he goes, making decisions based on what his little card tells him! Why did he take out that lineup? They were playing well and he took them out!"

Anyway, I think the game was lost long before that situation.
Agreed. It's the classic no-win scenario...damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Personally, I saw no real reason to pull Runi, Armstrong, Daniels, Granger and Baston at that time because they were still holding it down fairly well. Plus, players the Lakers had on the floor weren't doing any better. The longer the reserves were able to chip away at the lead and hold it down the "fresher" our starters should have been. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way. Except for JO, none of our starters had an impact on the game. So, in hindsight, it didn't matter if they rotated in at that point or not. The starters just didn't bring the A, B or C games last night, but atleast the reserves can say proudly "we did our part."

Since86
12-06-2006, 03:42 PM
Again, lack of effort or lack of legs?

There is a HUGE difference between the too. I'd agree they were flat, but their effort was certainly not the thing that was making them flat.

Israfan
12-06-2006, 04:19 PM
Finally I saw the game.

To tell you the truth - I'm not defence freak but common. I saw JO/Al standing out there looking at Lakers slowly putting the ball into the hoop. The first quarter was a disaster. Forget the offence, start doing some defence! I mean get 6 fouls, rip attacking players hands, be nasty! its not like there is something to loose, there is a long bench to substitute you. Be aggressive!
This is what Pacers lacking the most. The aggression. Sorry, but they are playing pathetic like a bunch of pussies.

Naptown_Seth
12-06-2006, 05:34 PM
Again, lack of effort or lack of legs?

There is a HUGE difference between the too. I'd agree they were flat, but their effort was certainly not the thing that was making them flat.
Lack of legs when Kwame was toasting JO on the other end?

MAYBE they were tired, they get to prove that tonight and vs POR IMO. But the result either way was a lack of mental and physical effort.

They weren't looking for the NEXT stage of any play on either end. It showd when you saw Granger, Saras and Baston doing it. For example, Saras penetrated to the baseline but found nothing there, so he kept on dribbling around looking for something till he was FORCED to bring it out and reset for another play (think he posted a big at that point).

He could have conceded early in the play that nothing was there and just made a lazy pass, which is what the starters had been doing. Lots of half-hearted effort to find the openings, make plays work, and generate QUALITY shots that do go in.

JO shot very well in fact considering the types of shots he got. Just look at the shot chart on him. His post stuff ended up skillful but difficult turns and step-backs, he had nothing going to the hole. Tinsley rarely made real penetration or gave a guy a 2nd effort.

You see teams do this all the time, the post guy won't make a hard, crisp effort to come out and establish the pick position for a PnR, and then the PG won't show a hard effort to drive off it. They go through the motions. And then what happens? They are turned away and the play is broken. The PG is easily stopped and the pick player is unable to get himself good position for a return pass.

To me that was the effort we saw from the starters. 85-90% effort when you need 95-100. That little bump makes a big difference. Plays typically don't have much margin for error or lack of effort. A guy is already just barely going to get open for a second even with full effort.


I'll say it again, Kwame and Luke should NOT look better than JO and AL. JO should not have been more rested in the 4th when he looked MUCH better than he did to start the game.

Okay, they were mentally worn down and sick of playing ball. Being physically tired can make you feel that way, especially with lots of travel. I'll buy that excuse as long as it goes away in their next 2 home games.

But it wasn't just missing good looks because of dead legs.

Since86
12-06-2006, 05:43 PM
There's a reason why military boot camp is so phsyically demanding, then they start grilling you with questions. It's because you're brain shuts down when your tired.

Dead legs magnifies mental errors, because you can't make up for them with hustle.

Naptown_Seth
12-06-2006, 07:36 PM
There's a reason why military boot camp is so phsyically demanding, then they start grilling you with questions. It's because you're brain shuts down when your tired.

Dead legs magnifies mental errors, because you can't make up for them with hustle.
Well as long as we aren't talking in terms of "they had good looks and just weren't getting their legs into them". That's the angle I thought you were taking.


Sluggish, mistake-prone, etc - due to being tired or otherwise. I'm a Happy Sunshiner, so I'm more than willing to say "hey, just tired". But I'm also Mr. Practical which means I must question that excuse at least somewhat.

maragin
12-07-2006, 04:06 AM
Graph 1: I'm sure that the denial was entertaining but I think RC has to recognize that there's got to be something behind the slow start business.

Graph 2: I'm with you on that-regardless of Baston's play.

Graph 3: I'd like to see us BEAT Orlando and thump Portland.

Halfway there!

Since86
12-07-2006, 12:43 PM
Yeah, Jeff all but outright said that they had run out of gas on the road. He said he got 10 hours of sleep last night and that RC moved the shootaround till later which gave him a chance to spend time with his twin babies.

You assume similar situations went on with the rest of the team. It showed on the court.

That's pretty much what I was saying.