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View Full Version : Marquis Daniels-Bust or what?



Phildog
12-04-2006, 03:19 PM
I've got to bring this up.....I'm a Quissy fan, but he has not found his role on this team, and I don't know if he is going to. His numbers are incredibly low for being a much hyped addition to our team. In addition, he truly has not added anything to our team besides minutes. I've watched every Pacer game this season, and have not seen but one or two spectacular plays from Daniels.

So the question is: What do we do with him? Is it too early for a judgment to be made? Is he on the trading block with some of our other guys for a package?

Daniels had some amazing opportunities to step it up when Jack was struggling and has underperformed throughout. I hope he gets something going, but he is really looking like a bust for this team.

FlavaDave
12-04-2006, 03:48 PM
I think that less than one quarter of a season is enough time to judge the abilities of a player on a brand new team who hasn't settled into a role yet.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-04-2006, 03:52 PM
I really paid him no mind until we aquired him. I didn't know what he brought to the table. After reading about him on this board among others, I really expected far more than what's been produced. All of his numbers are down with the exception of his 3pt % which is still poor. He looks lost out there on both offense and defense. I thought he was gonna bring us some perimeter D but I haven't seen anything from him consistently. He's not bringing any energy on the court with him and I thought he was a high energy player. He doesn't take it to the hoop and all summer all I heard was "slasher". He's last or second to last among the top eight minute guys on the team in free throw attempts. There are many aspects to his game that I was misled about I guess. I've already posted some of those in another thread (greene should start thread).

The other way to look at is is he better than Crosh, who we traded for him, and Jones who he replaced? Who would help this team more Daniels or Freddie? We sure could use a solid 4 coming off the bench with some seasons under his belt.

Phildog
12-04-2006, 03:58 PM
I really paid him no mind until we aquired him. I didn't know what he brought to the table. After reading about him on this board among others, I really expected far more than what's been produced. All of his numbers are down with the exception of his 3pt % which is still poor. He looks lost out there on both offense and defense. I thought he was gonna bring us some perimeter D but I haven't seen anything from him consistently. He's not bringing any energy on the court with him and I thought he was a high energy player. He doesn't take it to the hoop and all summer all I heard was "slasher". He's last or second to last among the top eight minute guys on the team in free throw attempts. There are many aspects to his game that I was misled about I guess. I've already posted some of those in another thread (greene should start thread).

The other way to look at is is he better than Crosh, who we traded for him, and Jones who he replaced? Who would help this team more Daniels or Freddie? We sure could use a solid 4 coming off the bench with some seasons under his belt.

So this being said. If he can't come around say by mid season....is he up for a trade with someone who can use whatever talent he is supposed to have? He's had DNP's before....so sometimes we don't even use him.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-04-2006, 04:16 PM
We've only played 18 games. I've only paid attention to him for 17 games in his career. It looks like he strung some pretty good offensive performances together last year with the Mavs. I was just saying we sure could use another slasher, a good perimeter defender, three point threat and a veteran big man coming off the bench. I felt like Freddie filled the first three even if undersized and Crosh provided the last two. I'm not suggesting it wasn't time for those guys to depart but Daniels hasn't been able to fill Jones shoes as of yet and I guess Baston was supposed to replace Crosh as the big guy off the bench or maybe it was Harrison.

Leisure Suit Larry
12-04-2006, 04:19 PM
Well some people seemed to think that an undrafted 3rd year player was the next Kobe Bryant by the way they talked about him.

Kegboy
12-04-2006, 04:58 PM
It's certainly too early to judge him, but I think everyone was expecting more, not just the sunshiners. I am a little worried that Avery was right about his attitude.

maragin
12-04-2006, 05:03 PM
Personally, I'm waiting until the ASB for Marquis. In the off season I had hopes that he would start to excel and posibly take over the starting 2 spot by around midseason. Currently, I'd just like to see him be a solid conitributor with the second unit and step up if we have injuries.

storm1015
12-04-2006, 05:04 PM
It's certainly too early to judge him, but I think everyone was expecting more, not just the sunshiners. I am a little worried that Avery was right about his attitude.

I am somewhat worried about this as well. I thought it was odd how Marquis fell out of the rotation in Dallas after he had a solid few years of production (especially when injuries hit). He could fill in at wing or point and was always a threat to get to the line with frequency. I have not seen any of that yet in Indy. Maybe Avery was on to something. Marquis was a solid player under Don Nelson and started downward with Avery. RC is more like Avery than Nelson.

Maybe he has a confidence issue. Or maybe he just hasn't found his place on this team yet. RC has been known to keep guys outside of his core group from playing thru mistakes, bad shots, bad defense, etc.

Unclebuck
12-04-2006, 05:35 PM
It's certainly too early to judge him, but I think everyone was expecting more, not just the sunshiners. I am a little worried that Avery was right about his attitude.

What did he say about his attitude

Unclebuck
12-04-2006, 05:44 PM
I've got to bring this up.....I'm a Quissy fan, but he has not found his role on this team, and I don't know if he is going to. His numbers are incredibly low for being a much hyped addition to our team. In addition, he truly has not added anything to our team besides minutes. I've watched every Pacer game this season, and have not seen but one or two spectacular plays from Daniels.

Daniels had some amazing opportunities to step it up when Jack was struggling and has underperformed throughout. I hope he gets something going, but he is really looking like a bust for this team.


Daniels is not a numbers type player. He's not a good shooter from beyond 15 feet - I don't know of anyone who has ever said anything different about the guy. I was one who wanted him on our team (of course I figured Jax and Tinsley would both be gone and Daniels would be starting in the backcourt as the "shooting guard" with a new point guard who could shoot and defend and this Daniels would be in his best role - a playmaker)

Daniels hasn't been used correctly - he is not good at standing 25 feet from the basket waiting for Tinsley, Al and JO to do their thing. Marquis needs the ball to be effective. He needs to be the primary playmaker - so as I suspected he cannot play with Tinsley.

However I foresee Daniels being an important player on the team as we move forward, pair him with Saras or DA (but not both) and Daniels can shine.

No one on the team finishes better than Marquis, no one can get into the lane better than Marquis.

Nothing that I have seen from him has surprised me in the least.


Here is the thread where I recommend the pacers go after Daniels

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21824


I'm now looking for the thread where we actually get him - I'm curious to see what people said

OK, here is the thread from when we actually got him

http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22196

bulldog
12-04-2006, 05:51 PM
Well some people seemed to think that an undrafted 3rd year player was the next Kobe Bryant by the way they talked about him.

I agree. Him and Granger. When you have realistic expectations, you don't get surprised by realistic outcomes.


However I foresee Daniels being an important player on the team as we move forward, pair him with Saras or DA (but not both) and Daniels can shine.
Another comment I agree with. He's more important for his versatility and athleticism than for ppg or anything like that.

Just
12-04-2006, 05:57 PM
He just can't contribute on this team the way it is built. Once Tins and Jax are finally gotten rid of, he will be great for us. He cant play with Tins.

Jumper
12-04-2006, 05:57 PM
He didn't play all preseason with an injury. He has only had the actual season to find his role and he has struggled. I say give him another 20 games before judgement is passed. I like the idea of him playing alongside Saras, I think they compliment each other well in terms of what one person lacks the other excels in.

CableKC
12-04-2006, 06:12 PM
With Carlisle's Guard rotation....I don't think that Marquis has gotten enough consistent minutes and any real role in the team to say that he is a "bust or not".

I thought I read that he was a player that was good at driving to the hoop.
Has he been doing this very often?

or

Is it because he isn't being used properly by Carlisle?

I don't know why he appears to be in Carlisle's doghouse....or whether he has earned ( instead of handed ) the 7th/8th man spot....but I haven't really seen enough of him to know whether he is making a difference or not.

One more thing...the only thing that I can point out about Marquis' game that I don't like his periodic 3pt shots. He never had a real 3pt shot before in Dallas....and of the few games that I have seen him play in....he has attempted at least one 3pt shot. To me....that's not a good thing. If a player sucks at making 3pt shots....they shouldn't even try.

v_d_g
12-04-2006, 06:18 PM
Could never understand why he was getting so much playing time, at Howard's expense, when Nellie was coaching Dallas. Didn't take Avery long to figure out who the better player was. (I mean, the difference is HUGE)

I've yet to figure out why this board goes bananas over some very mediocre players: Daniels, Sharunas, Harrington, etc.

Actually, I have: in a team that's so deprived of ATHLETES and good SHOOTERS, anyone with remote ability in these areas would appear to be a superstar.

Let's put things in perspective:

compare Daniels with Jamal Crawford of the Knicks

yeah, Daniels is a better defender but in all other areas Crawford,yeah, Crawford who never passes, blows him out. If Crawford WANTS to involve his teammates, he's unstoppable. And this is not to say that I think much of Crawford's game.

Now, what exactly was Daniels supposed to bring to the table:

respect for his J so that he can blow by people AND involve his teammates ---- NO!!! ---he's, at best, a better shooter than TINSLEY, who's a flat out embarrassment in the shooting department.

other than his D he doesn't bring much

then again, plenty of players, devoid of OTHER SKILLS, can play D

The PACERS have absolutely NO ONE, outside of the weak shooting Tinsley, that can create his own shot. They're behind the times. This is the new NBA. It's now about speed, skill, grace, athleticism. How about we slow the pace down a bit OR get off to yet another bad start.

Let's have MARQUIS shoot 500 J's a day during the off season, get his percentage to the MEDIOCRE level, then revisit this question.

ajbry
12-04-2006, 06:23 PM
No matter how you slice it, we have to realize we got him straight-up in return for Austin Croshere. Of course we benefited from that transaction, however, there was a reason he was dealt. He's a marginally talented, athletic, and versatile wing player whom doesn't really do anything spectacularly. We traded a bench player for a bench player. Marquis could be solid and has proven in the past to show flashes of good play, but you're fooling yourselves if you think he (along with the other golden boys: Danny and Rawle) are going to turn into some amazing trio of swingmen.

3rdStrike
12-04-2006, 06:36 PM
If a player sucks at making 3pt shots....they shouldn't even try.


It's not like he's taking 7 3pt shots per game. It is possible for a player to improve his shooting and range (Harrington), you know!

My problem with Daniels is:

a.) He isn't getting enough PT
b.) when he plays, he doesn't get the field goal opportunities
c.) He hasn't shown any of the so-called playmaker abilities that we've heard so much about.


I remember he was happy to be coming to the Pacers because he'd have an opportunity to start. How things change.


The few minutes that Baston, Greene, Daniels and Powell are getting just make me wonder why James White couldn't have been kept.

imawhat
12-04-2006, 06:53 PM
He's done exactly what I expected, and I'm not sure why people had these grand hopes for him. He got more minutes on a more offensive-minded team, yet most everyone thought he was going to substantially increase his stats here.


He may very well be our 7th player by the end of the year, and he's very productive, but he's not a savior. He doesn't shoot well but he's above average at everything else.

D-BONE
12-04-2006, 07:24 PM
The few minutes that Baston, Greene, Daniels and Powell are getting just make me wonder why James White couldn't have been kept.

Well, this is a good question.

Another good question is why didn't we just take this Paul Milsap guy that's been tearing it up for Utah in Kirilenko's absence since it's obvious we felt a deficiency in the big guy deptartment. (See the Baston acquisition.) While White had crazy dunks and athletic ability, could we really have thought he'd be an immediate impact player? Or how about Leon Powe who Boston picked behind us? We could have used either of those two and both are probably better than Maceo and Powell right now.

I mean we've only got 100 SF/SG tweeners guys anwyway.

Moses
12-04-2006, 07:42 PM
Marquis is the type of player who needs the ball to produce. I think the Pacers need to have him in the game when we are on a scoring drought and just let him produce. Somethings the Pacers sorely need is a guy who can make a shot when we need one..and Marquis is that type of guy.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2006, 08:30 PM
I agree. Him and Granger. When you have realistic expectations, you don't get surprised by realistic outcomes.


Another comment I agree with. He's more important for his versatility and athleticism than for ppg or anything like that.
Agree with both. Remember I started the Daniels = McKey thread, basically saying just this. 4-5 times a night (on regular bench minutes) Quis is certain to use a set of nifty dribble moves to go right into the lane with ease, and from there to get a great look or create a play for someone else.

He's not a slasher, not a high flier, it's deceptively simplistic looking. Often I rewind and slo-mo asking myself "now how did he just get to that spot". He's got a strong behind the back dribble and shows hesitation moves pretty well.

I like his defensive awareness and effort on that end. He can be taken, but as I've been pointing out so can Granger (and not just by "studs"). I like MD coming off the bench, to me he's exactly what you want in that role, a bit of everything needed.


My only issue with him this year has been his willingness to shoot the deep jumpers or threes. That's not in his skill set and is a waste of time usually. I'd rather see him stick to his strengths.

7th man - He is right now. Granger, Daniels, Sarunas. DA and Baston are getting spot minutes, Rawle has been given some nice chances but is sitting more in a specific need role now. Total minutes played this season, Daniels is 7th and already 50 minutes ahead of Sarunas.

Daniels lost that game and then had less minutes for some internal reason (it would appear) a week or so ago. Since then it looks like he's getting back into a normal bench rotation. The last 6 games (0, 10, 9) and then back to normal (21, 21, 18).

He's on pace for his normal minutes - 1550. 200 below last year, but 150 the year before that. This despite dropping about 20% in his actual MPG.



James White - I always wanted to keep him over Baston and was pretty vocal about that. But in a practicality sense MANY people around here, including me, were saying that a lot of this didn't matter that much because your 11-15 guys don't get minutes. That's not Rick, and in fact RC has been more willing to go deep than the average coach (I've run out those numbers many times, it's a big NBA urban myth about RC).

No coach likes to go above 400-500 total minutes for any player below 10th on the bench.

This is why I had little interest in them keeping Baston. These were all investiments in the future except him. At this age he is a win-now guy.


But someone remind me again, how many minutes has James White played in San Antonio? He's the ONLY Spurs roster player to not play yet this season. Either multi-ring Pop is an idiot too, or White isn't ready to go yet and would have had no impact on the Pacers this season.

Naptown_Seth
12-04-2006, 08:35 PM
I thought I read that he was a player that was good at driving to the hoop.
Has he been doing this very often?
Not to the hoop, to the lane. He's not going to get himself a parade of layups. Some, sure, but he's far more reliable to get himself 6 foot jumpers in the middle of the lane, or to force defenders to come at him and make him move the ball (playmaking).

He has been doing it, as I mentioned in the post above. The guy is performing just a touch below his norm, and a lot of that has to do with being the 7th man instead of the 6th (thanks to the Granger/Foster situation).

It's not only too early to call any player a bust, he's not even putting up numbers all that off his norm other than a slight MPG hit (and the FGA, etc that come with that).

flakcatcher
12-05-2006, 01:56 AM
Could never understand why he was getting so much playing time, at Howard's expense, when Nellie was coaching Dallas. Didn't take Avery long to figure out who the better player was. (I mean, the difference is HUGE)

I've yet to figure out why this board goes bananas over some very mediocre players: Daniels, Sharunas, Harrington, etc.

Actually, I have: in a team that's so deprived of ATHLETES and good SHOOTERS, anyone with remote ability in these areas would appear to be a superstar.

Let's put things in perspective:

compare Daniels with Jamal Crawford of the Knicks

yeah, Daniels is a better defender but in all other areas Crawford,yeah, Crawford who never passes, blows him out. If Crawford WANTS to involve his teammates, he's unstoppable. And this is not to say that I think much of Crawford's game.

Now, what exactly was Daniels supposed to bring to the table:

respect for his J so that he can blow by people AND involve his teammates ---- NO!!! ---he's, at best, a better shooter than TINSLEY, who's a flat out embarrassment in the shooting department.

other than his D he doesn't bring much

then again, plenty of players, devoid of OTHER SKILLS, can play D

The PACERS have absolutely NO ONE, outside of the weak shooting Tinsley, that can create his own shot. They're behind the times. This is the new NBA. It's now about speed, skill, grace, athleticism. How about we slow the pace down a bit OR get off to yet another bad start.

Let's have MARQUIS shoot 500 J's a day during the off season, get his percentage to the MEDIOCRE level, then revisit this question.

Painfully true, just about all of it.

Quis
12-05-2006, 02:05 AM
Stephen Jackson is the single worst starter in the NBA. There may be worse skilled starters, but none of them hurt their teams as much as Jackson hurts the Pacers with his terrible shot selection and refusal to rebound the ball. SO I think the biggest bust has been managements refusal to bench Jackson and play Quis regular minutes. Due that, give him time to adjust, and he turns into a 17/5/5 player capable of hitting 48% from the floor.

The Pacers are 28th in FG% and it's primarily due to the fact that their shooting guard is shooting 35% from the field and 25% from downtown.

The only answer is to release Stephen Jackson.

Fireball Kid
12-05-2006, 02:12 AM
I think it has a lot to do with the coach and the players that do not compliment his skills very well. This offense is just not suited for him.

Fireball Kid
12-05-2006, 02:15 AM
Stephen Jackson is the single worst starter in the NBA. There may be worse skilled starters, but none of them hurt their teams as much as Jackson hurts the Pacers with his terrible shot selection and refusal to rebound the ball. SO I think the biggest bust has been managements refusal to bench Jackson and play Quis regular minutes. Due that, give him time to adjust, and he turns into a 17/5/5 player capable of hitting 48% from the floor.

The Pacers are 28th in FG% and it's primarily due to the fact that their shooting guard is shooting 35% from the field and 25% from downtown.

The only answer is to release Stephen Jackson.

Just admit it. You have a man crush on Stephen Jackson. Do not hide your true feelings.:laugh:

Unclebuck
12-05-2006, 10:01 AM
I think it is simply a false statement to say that Daniels cannot create his own shot. Sure, he's not Kobe, but Daniels greatest strength as a player is his ability to create a shot in the lane. Isn't that obvious?

Phildog
12-05-2006, 10:28 AM
I think it is simply a false statement to say that Daniels cannot create his own shot. Sure, he's not Kobe, but Daniels greatest strength as a player is his ability to create a shot in the lane. Isn't that obvious?


It's obvious he CAN do it. It's not obvious WHEN he is going to do it. We're talking about a guy who got the opportunity to start and blew it. Jack doesn't appear to have much trouble getting his shots, maybe Quissy needs to take that approach. I mean, he got benched in favor of Rawle Marshall for chrissakes.

I WANT him to be good. I really do. But I'm not seeing it. Croshere could knock down open J's all day long and had heart and hustle. It's a rough one right now.

Unclebuck
12-05-2006, 10:57 AM
It's obvious he CAN do it. It's not obvious WHEN he is going to do it. We're talking about a guy who got the opportunity to start and blew it. Jack doesn't appear to have much trouble getting his shots, maybe Quissy needs to take that approach.


OK so you want him to take a selfish approach, you want him to take bad shots, you want him to play like Jackson?

Marquis cannot play with the starters - it is as simple as that, so either he must play with the bench players or the pacers need to change their starting unit

Quis
12-05-2006, 11:19 AM
What about Quis as the starting PG? Tinsley has played very well the past month and he's stayed healthy, his trade value has to be on the rise. Let it rise some more, let some current teams struggle a little more and more, and we might actually be able to get something worthwhile out of him.

NPFII
12-05-2006, 11:28 AM
...

Nobody cannot play with the starters - it is as simple as that, so either we play with the bench players or the pacers need to change their starting unit

Fixed.

Typical Pacers sequence:
Selfish1 ($6M until 2011) brings the ball up... dribbles... dribbles... gets stuck... looks around - finally passes to Selfish2. Selfish2 ($6.5M until 2009) catches the ball. Stops. Looks for a shot. Dribbles, spins, dribbles... gets stuck - looks around... Selfish3 ($7M until 2010) gets a pass, shoots over his defender. Selfish4 ($18M until 2009) yells to Selfish3 "why dont I get enough touches?!", Selfish2 starts complaining to the refs that he was fouled 55 plays ago.
OnlyUnselfishGuy (2nd year in the league, $1.5M) was the only one screening, going to the offensive board and 1st to return on defense, guarding the opponent's best scorer.

Unclebuck
12-05-2006, 11:49 AM
What about Quis as the starting PG? Tinsley has played very well the past month and he's stayed healthy, his trade value has to be on the rise. Let it rise some more, let some current teams struggle a little more and more, and we might actually be able to get something worthwhile out of him.

I would like to see how that would work. But if Marquis replaced Tinsley and the rest of the starters stayed the same - I think that is putting too much ball handling and point guard duties on Daniels' shoulders. I would want anyother player on the court with Marquis who could handle some of the point guard duties.

There are some shooting guards in the NBA who create shots and do a lot of things a point guard can do - probably about 40% of them can, but Jackson cannot so you need a point guard who can handle those duties

Quis
12-05-2006, 12:46 PM
I would like to see how that would work. But if Marquis replaced Tinsley and the rest of the starters stayed the same - I think that is putting too much ball handling and point guard duties on Daniels' shoulders. I would want anyother player on the court with Marquis who could handle some of the point guard duties.

There are some shooting guards in the NBA who create shots and do a lot of things a point guard can do - probably about 40% of them can, but Jackson cannot so you need a point guard who can handle those duties

Well thats why I mentioned Tinsleys rising trade value. If he contnues to play well and stay healthy, his value should sky rocket. Eventually one of these teams playing below expectations will get desperate and wanna make a move, and thats when we go in for the kill. The Heat have sucked thus far, maybe they'll get desperate and send us Dwyane Wade for Jamaal? :)

Cavs - Need a point guard badly, have Larry Hughes to offer, he and Quis are both skilled ball handlers so they'd make an interesting backcourt, although neither can shoot the ball.

Clippers - They're struggling, only .500 at this point, Cassell is playing great but he is 37, and Livingston just isn't living up to expectations. Something like Tinsley + Jackson for Maggette + Mobley could be interesting.

Knicks - They could use someone with Tinsleys playmaking abilities and have a plethora of G/F's to offer. Q-Rich is playing great and would be a huge upgrade over anyone we have at this point, not to mention Jamal Crawford has nice handling ability and would compliment Quis well.

Rockets - Theyre playing well, but Rafer Alston has stunk the court up thus far. They've got a sophomore out of Illinois named Luther Head who looks promising. I think hed be close to perfect beside Quis Daniels. He's an undersized SG who's shooting lights out from downtown (37-76, 49%) and is known as a tenacious defender. All of his limitations due to size would be erased playing next to a big point guard like Quis, who could guard the 2's and allow Head to guard the 1's.