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Putnam
12-04-2006, 09:07 AM
This week's Indianapolis Business Journal has an article about the Pacers' finances, and a letter the Simons and seven other small-market team owners have sent to the NBA, asking for help.

Briefly, they ask the NBA to share more revenue from national network broadcasts with the smaller teams. The article is long and contains a lot of information. Here is the link, and an excerpt:


http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=421


Indiana Pacers co-owner Herb Simon has thrown his support behind an effort to pressure National Basketball Association Commissioner David Stern to implement more aggressive revenue sharing among NBA franchises.

The move, which coincides with declining attendance at Pacers games, is the strongest indicator yet that the local franchise is losing money or is on the brink of doing so.

Simon, who owns the team with brother Mel, joined seven other NBA owners in signing a letter to Stern pleading for more money for small-market teams.

“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and author of “Keeping Score: The Economics of Big-Time Sports.” “The situation in a market like Indianapolis is unforgiving, and this letter shows the Pacers are hurting.”

Bball
12-04-2006, 09:14 AM
The Pacers might want to look at the strategy of throwing big money at mediocre and average talent.

-Bball

Unclebuck
12-04-2006, 09:33 AM
The move, which coincides with declining attendance at Pacers games, is the strongest indicator yet that the local franchise is losing money or is on the brink of doing so.




I always love statements like that. Statements that aren't really true. Perhaps there is some truth to it, but lets look at the stats.

Average attendance

This season through 6 games - 17,617
2006 - 16,179
2005 - 16,994
2004 - 16,556
2003 - 16,352
2002 - 16,745
2001 - ???
2000 - 18,345

I grant you this season is inflated due to the $4.00 tickets and surprisingly November tends to do pretty well in attendance. I don't know how many $4.00 tickets they sold but even if it was 1500 then the attendance is on par with last season. December is traditionally the slowest month of the season by far, so we'll see what happens this month and I would bet $8.00 tickets won't have the same drawing power as $4.00 tickets.

OK, but perhaps they aren't talking about last season to this season, but look at the numbers for the other seasons (you could even go back to the last few seasons at MSA and find similar numbers) - the figures have been remarkably consistant from one year to the next. The 2005 figures were bumped up a little because of Reggie's announced retirement. Otherwise those figures likely would have been in the 16,500.

So for 5 straight seasons the attendance has been remarkably constant.

I cannot locate the 2001 figures - but if my memoery is correct I think it was between 17,500 - 17,800

Putnam
12-04-2006, 10:11 AM
Your numbers are right on, UncleBuck. I guess the IBJ writer is taking the '00 season attendance, which was very high, being the first year at Conseco, and assumes that as the baseline. Every year since has fallen below that. So the question is, was '00 anomalous, or was it the proper benckmark against which to measure attendance for subsequent years?

The article is saying that the drop of 2,000 from '00 to '06 is the difference between profit and loss to the franchise. Or at least that, given the payroll and revenues as they are, the Pacers need some playoff revenue to stay in the black.

Here's another excerpt from further down the article:


Locally, Pacers officials have watched per-game attendance drop from a high of 18,345 during the 1999-2000 season, the team’s first in Conseco Fieldhouse, to 16,180 last year. Club seats and suites have also been a tougher sell in recent years, sources said, bringing the team closer to the red than it has been since vacating Market Square Arena. Last year, the team took a hit in popularity after the brawl with the Detroit Pistons and the antics of malcontent forward Ron Artest, who was eventually traded to Sacramento.

According to Forbes Magazine estimates, the Pacers’ annual budget is $100 million, and the team’s profits ranged from $2 million to $9 million in the three seasons before the 2005-2006 campaign. Making the playoffs, which generates fan support and more revenue, is almost essential this season, sports economists said. An absence would likely assure a financial loss.

ALF68
12-04-2006, 02:53 PM
This week's Indianapolis Business Journal has an article about the Pacers' finances, and a letter the Simons and seven other small-market team owners have sent to the NBA, asking for help.

Briefly, they ask the NBA to share more revenue from national network broadcasts with the smaller teams. The article is long and contains a lot of information. Here is the link, and an excerpt:


http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=421


Indiana Pacers co-owner Herb Simon has thrown his support behind an effort to pressure National Basketball Association Commissioner David Stern to implement more aggressive revenue sharing among NBA franchises.

The move, which coincides with declining attendance at Pacers games, is the strongest indicator yet that the local franchise is losing money or is on the brink of doing so.

Simon, who owns the team with brother Mel, joined seven other NBA owners in signing a letter to Stern pleading for more money for small-market teams.

author of “Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and “Keeping Score: The Economics of Big-Time Sports.” “The situation in a market like Indianapolis is unforgiving, and this letter shows the Pacers are hurting.”






“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and

Gee, I wonder what mistakes are they talking about?

1 Ron Artest

2 Steve Jackson


3 Tinman

4 JO

Should I go on?

ALF68
12-04-2006, 02:57 PM
I always love statements like that. Statements that aren't really true. Perhaps there is some truth to it, but lets look at the stats.

Average attendance

This season through 6 games - 17,617
2006 - 16,179
2005 - 16,994
2004 - 16,556
2003 - 16,352
2002 - 16,745
2001 - ???
2000 - 18,345

I grant you this season is inflated due to the $4.00 tickets and surprisingly November tends to do pretty well in attendance. I don't know how many $4.00 tickets they sold but even if it was 1500 then the attendance is on par with last season. December is traditionally the slowest month of the season by far, so we'll see what happens this month and I would bet $8.00 tickets won't have the same drawing power as $4.00 tickets.

OK, but perhaps they aren't talking about last season to this season, but look at the numbers for the other seasons (you could even go back to the last few seasons at MSA and find similar numbers) - the figures have been remarkably consistant from one year to the next. The 2005 figures were bumped up a little because of Reggie's announced retirement. Otherwise those figures likely would have been in the 16,500.

So for 5 straight seasons the attendance has been remarkably constant.

I cannot locate the 2001 figures - but if my memoery is correct I think it was between 17,500 - 17,800
Now UB, you know that there is a difference between paid attendance and the actual head count at the games. I think that the Pacer brass know a little more about the figures than you do.

aceace
12-04-2006, 05:16 PM
“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and

Gee, I wonder what mistakes are they talking about?

1 Ron Artest

2 Steve Jackson


3 Tinman

4 JO

Should I go on?I think its more about what would happen if they traded for half the knicks roster. If we have shown a profit over the last six years, then they don't have a gripe. This is more of a future thing then present. We actually have suffered the most from the brawl, rather than an injury like Benders. Jax hasn't helped ticket sales either flashing guns around indy. All of us thought we had a chance to make a run for the title last year and then Mo-ron staged his antics again and blindsided that.

beast23
12-04-2006, 05:55 PM
The Pacers are between a rock and a hard spot.

Since 2000, as salaries went up, so did ticket prices. Although, in the year that we re-signed six of our free agents, and let BMiller go, I really thought that ticket prices would climb more than they did.

But now, especially after the brawl, the behavior of Artest and Jackson, and a roster that just hasn't been embraced as much as in previous years, the Pacers are doing everything they can to decrease the payroll so they will not have to raise ticket prices.

And quite frankly, even if the total salary actually increased by a few million, I don't think the Pacers could afford to increase ticket prices while they are pulling their collective hair out trying to regain fans.

So, from a business perspective, the Pacers are not in a good position at all. They are not going to get extra dollars from their fans, at this point in time, as indicated by the $4 and $8 tickets, the Pacers ticket revenues will be even less. So they are turning to their only remaining avenue... TV revenues from the league as a whole.

Destined4Greatness
12-04-2006, 06:09 PM
The Pacers might want to look at the strategy of throwing big money at mediocre and average talent.

-Bball

If I had said that, it would be trolling, amazing.

Anyway, maybe they should stop consistently doing this, which will allow them to be a better team and thus win more of the Bandwagon fans that only follow the team when they are good. Amazing what good scouting and management can do.

aero
12-04-2006, 06:23 PM
“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,”

..signing Jermaine O'Neal to an over paid salary didn't help :lol:

i keed i keed....anyway. its good to see the smaller market teams are fighting for more cash

denyfizle
12-05-2006, 01:02 AM
“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and

Gee, I wonder what mistakes are they talking about?

1 Ron Artest

2 Steve Jackson


3 Tinman

4 JO

Should I go on?


re-signing Carlisle. if we're rebuilding, might as well got a new coach, RC's style of play makes it less interesting to watch the Pacers anyway.

ALF68
12-05-2006, 11:54 AM
re-signing Carlisle. if we're rebuilding, might as well got a new coach, RC's style of play makes it less interesting to watch the Pacers anyway.
Yeah, I agree add Rick to the list of mistakes.

Anthem
12-05-2006, 11:59 AM
Now UB, you know that there is a difference between paid attendance and the actual head count at the games. I think that the Pacer brass know a little more about the figures than you do.
Right, but we're not hearing this from the Pacers Brass. We're hearing this as speculation from the Indiana Business Journal.

Big difference.

Destined4Greatness
12-05-2006, 12:00 PM
Rick is hardly a mistake, god forbid we give him one starter that doesn't have a doctors note year round, or a court date.

PacerMan
12-05-2006, 12:43 PM
This week's Indianapolis Business Journal has an article about the Pacers' finances, and a letter the Simons and seven other small-market team owners have sent to the NBA, asking for help.

Briefly, they ask the NBA to share more revenue from national network broadcasts with the smaller teams. The article is long and contains a lot of information. Here is the link, and an excerpt:


http://www.ibj.com/html/detail_page.asp?content=421


Indiana Pacers co-owner Herb Simon has thrown his support behind an effort to pressure National Basketball Association Commissioner David Stern to implement more aggressive revenue sharing among NBA franchises.

The move, which coincides with declining attendance at Pacers games, is the strongest indicator yet that the local franchise is losing money or is on the brink of doing so.

Simon, who owns the team with brother Mel, joined seven other NBA owners in signing a letter to Stern pleading for more money for small-market teams.

“Small-market teams simply can’t afford to make the types of mistakes large-market teams can in the NBA and remain financially viable,” said Richard Sheehan, a University of Notre Dame economist and author of “Keeping Score: The Economics of Big-Time Sports.” “The situation in a market like Indianapolis is unforgiving, and this letter shows the Pacers are hurting.”

This is all Bull *****. (sarcasm)
PLENTY of know it all's here ASSURED us that there is NO way the Pacers could be experiencing any financial difficulties. Why should anyone be alienated from paying their $100 for a 2 hour game to see some rich athletes pretend to give effort? Mail it in. Just because we haven't played worth a ***** in 2 years doesn't mean anything! Geez! (sarcasm)

PacerMan
12-05-2006, 12:54 PM
I always love statements like that. Statements that aren't really true. Perhaps there is some truth to it, but lets look at the stats.

Average attendance

This season through 6 games - 17,617
2006 - 16,179
2005 - 16,994
2004 - 16,556
2003 - 16,352
2002 - 16,745
2001 - ???
2000 - 18,345

I grant you this season is inflated due to the $4.00 tickets and surprisingly November tends to do pretty well in attendance. I don't know how many $4.00 tickets they sold but even if it was 1500 then the attendance is on par with last season. December is traditionally the slowest month of the season by far, so we'll see what happens this month and I would bet $8.00 tickets won't have the same drawing power as $4.00 tickets.

OK, but perhaps they aren't talking about last season to this season, but look at the numbers for the other seasons (you could even go back to the last few seasons at MSA and find similar numbers) - the figures have been remarkably consistant from one year to the next. The 2005 figures were bumped up a little because of Reggie's announced retirement. Otherwise those figures likely would have been in the 16,500.

So for 5 straight seasons the attendance has been remarkably constant.

I cannot locate the 2001 figures - but if my memoery is correct I think it was between 17,500 - 17,800

There's a HECK of a lot more to the bottom line than attendance. And you didn't mention how many tickets are being compt'd. Advertising is huge,and while I don't have any info on how sales are (or what % of advertisers are paying FULL list price), I would wager it's down significantly. I sure as hell wouldn't spend my advert money on this bunch as it stands now. And I would have before. (Theoretically, I'm in Fort Wayne, so not really realistic). And THOSE are the people that buy the high dollar suites that make them a bunch of money. Bet souvenir sales are WAY down since Reggie retired and the idiot left. (you know who).
Image is EVERYTHING, and right now ours S U C K S.

Putnam
12-05-2006, 01:41 PM
Unclebuck doesn't need me to defend his position, but you're not being fair Pacerman.

The IBJ article asserted that "attendance is down from the 99-00 season." Well, that is a fact, but Unclebuck points out rightly that that year was an anomaly. It was the first year at Conseco, and it was a year the Pacers were playing well. Unclebuck shows that, compared to the more realistic numbers you get in every year but 99-00, attendance has been pretty steady.

Unclebuck didn't ignore the other factors (comped or discounted tickets, etc.), but simply limited his comments to address one weakness in the article. He gave us real numbers to support his point.

All the points you raise are valid, but you are just guessing.