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View Full Version : Orien Greene needs to start



Jose Slaughter
12-04-2006, 01:43 AM
I know he can't run the offense nearly as well as Tinsley. However, I'd be willing to give that up if we could stop people at the other end.

As long as Greene could get the ball across midcourt, which I'm pretty sure he can. We have guys that can, & would like to score, at 3 other positions. Jackson, Harrington & O'Neal.

Theres just two things I'm looking for from our point guard.

1. Get into the play as quickly as possible.

2. Clamp down on penetration at the defensive end.

We need to stop the other team from getting into the lane. Tinsley is not the answer.

3rdStrike
12-04-2006, 02:13 AM
Greene isn't going to hold any opposing PG scoreless. When you have scorers as inconsistent as O'Neal, Harrington and Jackson have been, and when you are relying on Foster to take 12 field goal attempts in a game, you need your PG to be someone who can score.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-04-2006, 02:17 AM
You do realize you're suggesting starting a guy who's played 10 minutes this year over one who's helped this team go 5-5 in the last ten with 7 of those on the road. This is what Tinsley has done the last ten games.

Minutes Per: 30.7
FG%: .450
3PT%: .412
FT%: .805
RPG: 4.4
APG: 6.7
SPG: 1.4
PPG: 16.5

This is what the last ten opposing starting PG's have done

Minures Per: 33.9
FG% .492
3PT: .450
FT%: .787
REB: 4.8
AST: 6.8
STL: 1.3
PTS: 16.2

When you consider who has been faced...Jason Kidd,Maurice Williams (2x),Jameer Nelson, Eric Snow, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack,Monta Ellis,Luke Ridnour and Andre Miller...it's not like he's getting burnt.

Eindar
12-04-2006, 02:28 AM
I don't need him to start, but I'd like to see him play, expecially if DA is playing hurt and won't be as effective shooting the ball. Would be nice to see him brought in for 5-10 minutes per game to ice a shooter.

lumber man
12-04-2006, 06:15 AM
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I don't need him to start, but I'd like to see him play, expecially if DA is playing hurt and won't be as effective shooting the ball. Would be nice to see him brought in for 5-10 minutes per game to ice a shooter.yes.
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Speed
12-04-2006, 09:18 AM
I'd like to see him play 20 mins a night at the expense of DA. They will need DA's savvy later in the year, save him. Greene, is the anti Tinsley will really disrupt the other team. I can't wait to see him get in the rotation.

Unclebuck
12-04-2006, 09:50 AM
I'm still waiting for a Greene and Marquis backcourt

Ragnar
12-04-2006, 10:30 AM
You cant possibly be upset with Jamaal when we were close when he was taken out in the 3rd and not put back in until we were down over 20. Then only kept in for 1 minute before Rick just gave up and pulled everyone. Rick should have started the 4th with the starters rather than keeping the bench in until the 7:41 mark.

I would certainly like to see what Green can do as the backup. Maybe Rick could try putting him in next time we are hemorrhaging points with Saras at the point.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-04-2006, 11:00 AM
After 18 games, I see no reason to make further changes in the starting lineup. It seems like the same people who defend Carlisle to the end second guess his every move. I'm still waiting for Daniels to put up something other than career lows across the board. He's been non-existent for the majority of the year. I haven't seen the ball handling skills he received praise for when we traded for him. I don't see this guy being able to handle the one as many have suggested. I don't know if I read it here or just assumed he was a fireball type player but he hasn't brought energy on a consistent basis. He's been to line the second least amount of times of the top eight players (based on minutes and Foster falls into last place). He has the second worst turnovers/per minute of those 8. Only Jackson has a worse 3pt %. Only Runi has a lower efficiency rating of those 8. He has the lowest per minute +/-. Greene's played in one game all year, the blowout loss to the Celtics. I think that says alot about him...he's the fourth stringer.

Slick Pinkham
12-04-2006, 11:04 AM
Drives into the paint
All night long their guards blow by
Please no more Tinsley

GY!BE
12-04-2006, 01:24 PM
While I would like to see more of Green on the floor, I don't know if he should be handed the starting job right away without proving he's earned it.

Give him some minutes, see how he reacts, and react to that.

rimock31
12-04-2006, 04:40 PM
I don't see PG play as being the issue with the Pacers right now. I really think its rebounding and consistency at SG. Moreover, i don't understand how everyone is annointing Orien Greene as the savior for this team when he's played a total unimpressive minutes for us after being waved by a mediocre team.

storm1015
12-04-2006, 04:56 PM
I think the idea of a defenisve PG is what gets people excited. I don't think everyone thinks this highly of Greene, just the concept of a defensive minded PG. We have not had that element (total defense, not just steals) since probably Haywoode Workman. It would be nice to see our PG put a lot of pressure on opposing PG's. That kind of pressure (think of what the Pistons did with Hunter and James) on the backcourt causes all kinds of breakdowns as the game wears on.

At the same time I'm sure teams with only defensive minded PG's are wishing they had someone like Saras/DA coming off the bench just as we wish for defense....

imawhat
12-04-2006, 07:08 PM
After 18 games, I see no reason to make further changes in the starting lineup. It seems like the same people who defend Carlisle to the end second guess his every move.

Me neither. I don't think the starting lineup can be better.



I'm still waiting for Daniels to put up something other than career lows across the board. He's been non-existent for the majority of the year. I haven't seen the ball handling skills he received praise for when we traded for him. I don't see this guy being able to handle the one as many have suggested.

He'll put up lower numbers because he's playing less minutes on a team that is less offensive-minded.

I think he'll make it back into the main rotation, just as Baston has entered from not playing at all. The end of the rotation will probably change all year (barring injuries) because that's what Carlisle does.


I'm not quite sure what people were raving about, but he never played a traditional "1" role at Dallas. From what I've seen, his job was to bring the ball up court and help set up the offense, which was run by Terry/Harris/etc. It's the exact same here, and I think it's a unique thing to use him for, and very good for half-court teams (like us).

As far as foul attempts per minute, I'm surprised. Then again, he seems to focus on making the shot more than drawing contact. I'm fine with that, since he's one of our best finishers.





I'd love to see Orien get some playing time. We definitely need to improve our defense. It's really bad right now.

D-BONE
12-04-2006, 07:32 PM
I think the idea of a defenisve PG is what gets people excited. I don't think everyone thinks this highly of Greene, just the concept of a defensive minded PG. We have not had that element (total defense, not just steals) since probably Haywoode Workman. It would be nice to see our PG put a lot of pressure on opposing PG's. That kind of pressure (think of what the Pistons did with Hunter and James) on the backcourt causes all kinds of breakdowns as the game wears on.

At the same time I'm sure teams with only defensive minded PG's are wishing they had someone like Saras/DA coming off the bench just as we wish for defense....

Graph 1: You are correct. I think people underestimate how much defensive and rebounding improvement we could see with a serious defensive presence at the point. Don't know if Greene is that guy whether starting or off the bench. On the other hand, the loss of offense minus Tins could just turn out to be a wash.

Graph 2: Sure they are really salivating over these guys as backup points? If so let's get em on the horn and try to work a trade.

storm1015
12-05-2006, 12:08 PM
Graph 1: You are correct. I think people underestimate how much defensive and rebounding improvement we could see with a serious defensive presence at the point. Don't know if Greene is that guy whether starting or off the bench. On the other hand, the loss of offense minus Tins could just turn out to be a wash.

Graph 2: Sure they are really salivating over these guys as backup points? If so let's get em on the horn and try to work a trade.

I should have been more clear: Fans of other teams with defensive minded PG's probably want a shooter like Saras. I'm not sure what kind of trade value Saras would have. More than last year, but we'll never trade him.

beast23
12-06-2006, 10:34 AM
When you consider who has been faced...Jason Kidd,Maurice Williams (2x),Jameer Nelson, Eric Snow, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack,Monta Ellis,Luke Ridnour and Andre Miller...it's not like he's getting burnt.
YES... it is like he's getting burnt.

Looking at the way Tinsley typically gets by a defender, he uses a combination of change of pace and his crossover dribble.

However, on the other end of the court, Tinsley can be beaten just on a change of pace alone. Or, simply by a crossover dribble alone. He can also be beaten just by focusing his attention elsewhere, since he is often much more concerned with positioning himself in a passing lane as opposed to just staying ball-side and basket-side of his man.

I like the idea of playing a Quis and Greene backcourt, and I think it would be quite easy to experiment with this combination in the second unit.

This tandem would be the best possible defensive duo we could put in our backcourt using the personnel we have. Both players handle the ball fairly well, although they don't have Tinsley's court vision. And both players can penetrate the lane.

If nothing else, the additional dribble penetration using Quis and Greene might help turnaround the disadvantage that we have in FTAs. Both players can penetrate the lane, which might cause additional fouls on the opposition, and both players can help defend against penetration into the lane, possibly resulting in fewer fouls against us.

It's funny that we talk about just using a guard that can get the ball up the court and initiate the offense by making a perimeter pass. Given the choice between a PG-wizard who can't play a lick of defense and a player that can simply get the ball up the court, contribute to the offense and play very decent defense, I'll take the defender.

But, what do I know? I thought we already had one of those type guys and damn if we didn't do something stupid like trade him to Dallas. And I still remain on record as saying the trade was one of our biggest mistakes... we traded the wrong player.
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NuffSaid
12-06-2006, 05:37 PM
You do realize you're suggesting starting a guy who's played 10 minutes this year over one who's helped this team go 5-5 in the last ten with 7 of those on the road. This is what Tinsley has done the last ten games.

Minutes Per: 30.7
FG%: .450
3PT%: .412
FT%: .805
RPG: 4.4
APG: 6.7
SPG: 1.4
PPG: 16.5

This is what the last ten opposing starting PG's have done

Minures Per: 33.9
FG% .492
3PT: .450
FT%: .787
REB: 4.8
AST: 6.8
STL: 1.3
PTS: 16.2

When you consider who has been faced...Jason Kidd,Maurice Williams (2x),Jameer Nelson, Eric Snow, T.J. Ford, Jarrett Jack,Monta Ellis,Luke Ridnour and Andre Miller...it's not like he's getting burnt.

Sometimes, you gotta take a step back and look at things from different perspective before you can really see the situation for what it is. The Good Dr. just provided some pretty good statistics to refute the argument that Tinsley's play has been any worse than any of the other top PG in the league right now, and still many of you would rather see him relegated to the bench or gone rather than accept his positive contributions to the team to date. Okay, so that comparative stats are cumulative, but still it shows that TinMan is doing what a PG is suppose to do for the most part, and he's getting the job done. Nonetheless, it would be interesting to see if any of these other PGs are the "lock-down" types that so many of you are expecting Tinsley to be. Or to put it another way, I wonder what the point totals are for those PGs who have had an opposing PG score against them? Something tells me most wouldn't fair much better than Tinsley in that regard.

For what it's worth, I think Tinsley's doing just fine right now. However, I do believe that an on-the-ball-defender is what's needed on this team. It's one of the reasons I have enjoyed the pairing of Armstrong and Sarunas so much. "Mr. Energizer" will pressure the ball on nearly every possession for however long he's on the court. He will hastle the heck out of his opponent leaving Sarunas to do the rest. We do need more of that from Tinsley, I agree. But I think I'd rather he stick w/doing what he does best than to try and become something he's not.

(Besides, we wouldn't want him to strain himself and go down w/a pulled muscle or anything, now would we? j/k :laugh: )

Jose Slaughter
12-06-2006, 11:58 PM
First of all I'm not expecting Tinsley to be a "lock down defender". But would it be too much to ask to show a little effort on the defensive side of the ball?

You can throw stats at me all day & half the night & unless we're talking fantasy hoops, I could care less.

If you can find figures were our bigs picked up a foul in an attempt to defend the guys that just blew past Tinsley, then we'll talk.

If you can find the numbers where our bigs, after getting into foul trouble, started playing softer D, allowing layups by either the penetrating guard or the player that we sagged off of to help out. Then we'll talk.

Stop the other team & we create scoring opporunities for us. If nothing else, play with a little pride & effort.

Dr. Goldfoot
12-07-2006, 01:21 AM
Well, Tinsley has attempted 44 free throws in the last 11 and the opponent has attempted 49. The difference isn't game breaking. They've both shot basically the same .795 for Mel and .796 for the opponents. I disagree that the opposing point guard is driving the lane and forcing our front court into foul trouble any more than Jamaal is forcing the other team into foul trouble. I find if you focus on one player too much you exaggerate both the highlights and deficiencies.

Naptown_Seth
12-07-2006, 01:39 AM
I'm still waiting for a Greene and Marquis backcourt
Keep waiting.

Greene shows great defensive awareness, and tonight you could see him keeping good tabs on the entire floor when he was out there.

BUT...before he got called for carrying I was thinking "man, he's carrying on every dribble". They could have called him for it just bringing the ball up. That troubles me because it makes me wonder what is up with his handles that he has to get under the ball like that so much.

It looked like a really bad habit to me. So put that in with the general view that he's a defensive specialist, not an offensive guy, and that says "not a starter". You have to be an elite defensive ace to start with no offense on the perimeter IMO.

(btw, I like Greene and would like to see him thrown at some of the nastier PGs, sometimes in place of Armstrong, who has come back down to earth)

Over to Daniels, another player I was praising several weeks ago. He's nice as a bench guy because he does a little bit of everything. However he's not as strong as Jack and doesn't muscle guys on either end. Jack doesn't have the outside shot (neither does Quis) but he does have the ability to go inside (esp. baseline) and to bang with players on offense and defense. Quis can drive but sometimes gets knocked off of plays with contact.

Daniels at times looks like McKey in another way other than the ones I mentioned in that Quis=McKey thread...he can be rather passive like Big Heavy often was. Sometimes that's just what you want, but I think his game has been sputtering lately because of this.


Tinsley was half great and half junk tonight, but I will say this, he showed good aggression on the double teams, something that's been lacking. One time he almost pulled the AI steal, where he snuck from the weakside and timed the post feed pass, coming in from the baseline side. Howard protected it well enough and Tins had to retreat and find his man, but it showed awareness and smarts.

Other times Tins doubled hard enough to force guys to make passes, and honestly I'd like to see more of that unless it's a certain dead-eye shooter you leave free. The half efforts to double end up having little or no effect. Make a guy like Howard prove he can pass the ball. Tonight Tinsley did that.

And as always he does read passing lanes well, which is where a majority of his steals come from.


Tins and Saras are clearly not the defenders that Greene is, but both are playing some really solid offense and look like they are starting to click with their respective rotation teammates. I can live with their moderate defensive issues if they bring it at the other end. Tonight's game was a prime example of both of them doing this.