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View Full Version : As Sarunas goes, so do the Pacers?



Alpolloloco
11-29-2006, 11:43 AM
With the latest stat of the game from www.pacers.com (http://www.pacers.com) "The Pacers are now 5-0 when Sarunas Jasikevicius scores in double figures and 5-1 when he plays at least 20 minutes." I was wondering if it actually is Sarunas who is more important to our success (or failure) than Tinsley.

What do you guys think?

And please, no bashing in this thread!

Trader Joe
11-29-2006, 12:04 PM
I think Sarunas is an important player to this team and thats what has always frustrated me about his inconsistency. The stat maybe slightly misleading but for the most part what I think it shows is that bench play, particularly in the backcourt will be key to this team winning.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 12:04 PM
Sarunas had a nice game, albeit with some poor play that didn't show up in the box score.

But his best play came when he was the off-guard, playing with Armstrong. He didn't look great when he was playing the point.

Trader Joe
11-29-2006, 12:06 PM
Oh as far as the Tins and Runi comparisons as to who is more important I think they both are. When they both have big games we are damn near unstoppable, when one has a good game we are still a good team, but when both struggle we stink.

Pitons
11-29-2006, 12:20 PM
Try to take out JO ;) .

The team is strong when one or two players have off night, other players step in and cover them and the team wins.

Saras played good 4 or 5 games, but some games he really played **** (for example game against Toronto - his stats and +/- were awful). He's inconsistent.

We have other players who had carried us to victories, but they are inconsistent too. Tinsley let's say.

We don't have superstars as Wade, LeBron or Nowitzki, who have off nights very rarely. Otherwise we have JO, who plays very good imo at the moment and is 18 most eff player in NBA (was much lower a week or so ago) and he plays like franchise player now.

I just want to say, that's very good that Pacers have bench players who can step up and I hope it will last.

Every player means.

rimock31
11-29-2006, 12:39 PM
I think overall he's just shown this season that he can have a huge impact on games and dispelled any notions that he doesn't belong in this league. Being paired with DA or Daniels(if he actually made an effort) is a great situation for him. While he struggles to bring the ball up sometimes, there's no denying that in the half-court, the offense should be run through Saras, especially late in games

pizza guy
11-29-2006, 12:47 PM
It's simple. When Sarunas plays well, the entire second unit plays well. When he doesn't, it throws the second unit to heck. JO brings it every night, and he's about the only one. When Tinsley plays as well as he can, our first unit is great. And, when Sarunas plays well, our second unit is great.

All else can change every night, but if the guards bring it like they can, paired with JO bringing it every night, we win. This team is based on a front-court player in JO, so, you have to have good guard play to compliment that if you're going to win. Without it, JO can drop 50, and we'll lose 99-55.

The importance of Sarunas is the balance we get between first and second units. When he plays well, our second unit isn't much of a drop-off (if any) from our first. But if "bad Sarunas" shows up, it's a long night.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 12:51 PM
All I know is, I'd give blood to have the 30-year-old version of D. Armstrong on this team.

Israfan
11-29-2006, 01:05 PM
All I know is, I'd give blood to have the 30-year-old version of D. Armstrong on this team.
Death!!!

Regarding Sarunas importance to win:
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26378&page=2&highlight=S-DA

Will Galen
11-29-2006, 01:08 PM
"The Pacers are now 5-0 when Sarunas Jasikevicius scores in double figures and 5-1 when he plays at least 20 minutes." I was wondering if it actually is Sarunas who is more important to our success (or failure) than Tinsley.

I noticed that stat developing a while back but thought it inconclusive and needed more games before deciding it was true or not. Why? It could be that when anyone is hitting from the outside it opens the floor. And two, as for being 5-1 when he plays 20 minutes or more that's self explanatory, because he only plays big minutes when he's playing well.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 01:51 PM
I noticed that stat developing a while back but thought it inconclusive and needed more games before deciding it was true or not. Why? It could be that when anyone is hitting from the outside it opens the floor. And two, as for being 5-1 when he plays 20 minutes or more that's self explanatory, because he only plays big minutes when he's playing well.

Quite frackingly true,

However . . . since Runi can be inconsistent--and since he can also flip a switch and turn from bad to great--this is the one stat I want to see before all my questions go away and I accept that he is either bad/mediocre or really good:

What is the Ps record when he plays 20+ minutes for ten games in a row, regardless of whether he plays good or bad?

In other words, give him the confidence that he won't get yanked, let him be in the game when its on the line, and let's see what the team's record is for those ten games.

It's the stat that we just never seem to get.

pizza guy
11-29-2006, 02:04 PM
Quite frackingly true,

However . . . since Runi can be inconsistent--and since he can also flip a switch and turn from bad to great--this is the one stat I want to see before all my questions go away and I accept that he is either bad/mediocre or really good:

What is the Ps record when he plays 20+ minutes for ten games in a row, regardless of whether he plays good or bad?

In other words, give him the confidence that he won't get yanked, let him be in the game when its on the line, and let's see what the team's record is for those ten games.

It's the stat that we just never seem to get.

I would love to see that. It would be the final determining factor.

Seed
11-29-2006, 02:07 PM
I think Sarunas now needs to show he can be consistent for several games in a row (I mean the good Sarunas should ;)).

I just wonder, is it possible for all our guys to show up to a single game together :D.
I just once would like to see Tins, Al, Fiesty, Runi, S-Jax, DG, Quis, JO all playing to their abilities at a single game. I don't care if we lose 3 in a row after that. I don't care about the whole season after that :-p

Fool
11-29-2006, 02:11 PM
Quite frackingly true,

However . . . since Runi can be inconsistent--and since he can also flip a switch and turn from bad to great--this is the one stat I want to see before all my questions go away and I accept that he is either bad/mediocre or really good:

What is the Ps record when he plays 20+ minutes for ten games in a row, regardless of whether he plays good or bad?

In other words, give him the confidence that he won't get yanked, let him be in the game when its on the line, and let's see what the team's record is for those ten games.

It's the stat that we just never seem to get.

I realize you are talking about this year, but he had stretches of such time last year. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jasiksa01_2006.html

The 2 stretches I saw (20+ minutes for 10+ games) the Pacers were 7-6 in 13 games and 6-5 in 11 games

Pitons
11-29-2006, 02:13 PM
I just once would like to see Tins, Al, Fiesty, Runi, S-Jax, DG, Quis, JO all playing to their abilities at a single game. I don't care if we lose 3 in a row after that. I don't care about the whole season after that :-p

They would give Pacers :trophy: and everybody would be free after that one game :-p

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 02:46 PM
I realize you are talking about this year, but he had stretches of such time last year. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jasiksa01_2006.html

The 2 stretches I saw (20+ minutes for 10+ games) the Pacers were 7-6 in 13 games and 6-5 in 11 games

I would count that, as well. But the question is, did he really play 20+ minutes for ten games in a row? I'm doubting that.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 02:48 PM
I think Sarunas now needs to show he can be consistent for several games in a row

Cart before the horse. He can't be consistent for several games in a row if he can't have an off game or two. That would mess with anyone's head.

How often do JO, Al, Tins or Granger have a bad game. Oh, about every fourth or fifth.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 03:17 PM
I would count that, as well. But the question is, did he really play 20+ minutes for ten games in a row? I'm doubting that.

Not doubting it anymore.

Just went to the link that you provided ;)

Interesting summary:

During the first stretch of 13 games he shot 52% from the field, and 38% from 3point. His Assist/Turnover was 4/1.8.

During the second stretch of 11 games he shot 42% from the field and 42% from 3point. His assist/turnover ratio was 3.6/2.1.

He seemed to decline a bit on the second stretch, although 42 percent from 3-point land is pretty good.

If you buy the idea that Sarunas brings floor intangibles--enthusiasm, good in the clutch, and leadership (spare me the Korver story, please)--then this stat is revealing:

When Runi played 20+ minutes (consistently) we won 54 percent of our games.

When he didn't, we won 47 percent of our games.

imawhat
11-29-2006, 04:14 PM
With the latest stat of the game from www.pacers.com (http://www.pacers.com) "The Pacers are now 5-0 when Sarunas Jasikevicius scores in double figures and 5-1 when he plays at least 20 minutes." I was wondering if it actually is Sarunas who is more important to our success (or failure) than Tinsley.

What do you guys think?

And please, no bashing in this thread!



I think the stat says a lot more about Tinsley's play than Saras'. 5-1 when Saras plays 20+minutes means that we're 3-6 when Tinsley is getting more minutes. I think he's played consistently mediocre, and that allows for a good record when Sarunas can come in, play well, and take some of Tins' minutes.

Seed
11-29-2006, 04:36 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_061129.html

QOD with Bruno
Why Has Jasikevicius’ Playing Time Fluctuated?

Q. What is up with Sarunas Jasikevicius' playing time? I know another fan asked a similar question at the end of last season but I don't understand why he can score 20 points one night and get 1:36 of playing time the next. There are the knocks on his defense and the presence of (Jamaal) Tinsley as well as well as (Darrell) Armstrong at point. I still think Sarunas should get 10 to 12 minutes per game, ideally splitting time just about down the middle with Tinsley and leaving Armstrong on the bench save serious foul trouble or injury. If he continues to play less than four minutes most nights, I'd hate to see him end up starting for someone else and averaging 20 points per game while Tinsley battles injuries and provides little offensive firepower. (From Will in northern California)

A. Among the many players with unsettled roles to this point, Jasikevicius stands out. He has played both backcourt positions and has occasionally produced impressive numbers and inspirational play. But consistency has been a major issue. He'll play terrific one night, then be a non-entity the next. Is his playing time fluctuating because his play has been up and down? Or has his play been fluctuating because his minutes have been up and down? It's the old chicken-or-egg argument and I'm not sure there's a right answer.
The last few games have offered a crystallization of his season. He was very good in Portland with 17 points, seven assists and four rebounds in nearly 31 minutes. Sunday in Toronto, however, he missed all six of his shots and managed one point and three assists in 24 minutes. The night before against Cleveland he scored 15 points with three assists in 29 minutes. In the previous game, three points in 13 minutes. In the Pacers' last three victories, he averaged 14.0 points and shot .517 from the floor. In the last three losses, he totaled four points on 1-of-11 shooting.
It seems pretty clear his production is important to the team. The Pacers are 5-0 when he scores in double figures. For the time being, it appears Tinsley and Armstrong will get most of the minutes at point guard with Jasikevicius coming off the bench at shooting guard. He and Armstrong have generally played very well together as both bring energy and an unselfish nature to the floor. Having Armstrong and Danny Granger flanking him, defensively, also helps. If playing time is an indicator, Jasikevicius is getting the chance to cement a consistent role in the rotation. He has played at least 24 minutes in each of the last three games after doing so just thrice in his first 11 appearances. As Coach Rick Carlisle gains confidence in his decision-making, Jasikevicius appears to be finding a nice rhythm. He's a valuable piece of the puzzle, not just because of his shooting but also for his creativity and passion. All he needs now is to string together some consistent performances to further entrench himself as a vital role-player.

v_d_g
11-29-2006, 04:54 PM
Given that the PACERS are the worst shooting team in the league (41.9% entering the Portland game) no wonder we seem to always gravitate back to
someone who, at least on occasion, can shoot competently (not like he can do anything else well).

It's a love fest. It's LAUGHABLE but a lovefest nonetheless.

Sadly indicative, as well, of the quality of players on this team.

Pitons
11-29-2006, 05:02 PM
Given that the PACERS are the worst shooting team in the league (41.9% entering the Portland game) no wonder we seem to always gravitate back to
someone who, at least on occasion, can shoot competently (not like he can do anything else well).

It's a love fest. It's LAUGHABLE but a lovefest nonetheless.

Sadly indicative, as well, of the quality of players on this team.

You can shoot 60 % every night and still lose. There are more aspects of the game also. You won't win a game making 3 FG from 4 with 75 %.

This team of bad shooters has 4th record in the East. Not a tragedy.

Why don't you search for positive things? For example assists - 6th in the league (Pacers make +3.60 assists more than opponents - 4th place), 2nd in blocks, 8th in steals, 10th in FT%???

Dr. Goldfoot
11-29-2006, 05:46 PM
I think the stat says a lot more about Tinsley's play than Saras'. 5-1 when Saras plays 20+minutes means that we're 3-6 when Tinsley is getting more minutes. I think he's played consistently mediocre, and that allows for a good record when Sarunas can come in, play well, and take some of Tins' minutes.


Runi doesn't seem to be taking any time away from Tinsley. In the six games he played 20 minutes or more Mel Mel is still getting 28.7 MPG compared to 29.3 on the year. Those numbers include his season low 23 minutes vs the Blazers. Runi is playing the majority of his minutes at the two guard.

In fact in those 6 games one could argue Tinsley had just as much top do with the wins statistically speaking. They both are hitting their threes in those games. Jamaal 6/15 .400 Runi 9/18 .500. They both are getting to the line..Jamaal 21/28 .750 Runi 21/24 .875. Tins is getting 4.7 rebs and 6.5 ast Runi is at 2.0 reb and 3.8 ast. Tins is getting over 1 spg and 12.8 PPG Runi is at 12.7 ppg.

NuffSaid
11-29-2006, 06:23 PM
Oh as far as the Tins and Runi comparisons as to who is more important I think they both are. When they both have big games we are damn near unstoppable, when one has a good game we are still a good team, but when both struggle we stink.
So true, so true.

You can't discount either's effectiveness. One is a great passer and setup guy, the other a good "show-time" passer and shooter. Both bring something different to the table, and when their at the top of their game collectively or individually, the team does very well. So, here's hoping both can establish some consistency in what they bring to the hardwood and both can stay healthy throughout the season.

imawhat
11-29-2006, 06:45 PM
Runi doesn't seem to be taking any time away from Tinsley. In the six games he played 20 minutes or more Mel Mel is still getting 28.7 MPG compared to 29.3 on the year. Those numbers include his season low 23 minutes vs the Blazers. Runi is playing the majority of his minutes at the two guard.



Maybe I should fact check before posting. Interesting.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 07:14 PM
Runi doesn't seem to be taking any time away from Tinsley. In the six games he played 20 minutes or more Mel Mel is still getting 28.7 MPG compared to 29.3 on the year. Those numbers include his season low 23 minutes vs the Blazers. Runi is playing the majority of his minutes at the two guard.



So, he must be taking minutes away from Jax, which means we play better when Jax is not in the lineup.

This is truly shocking. It took the great braintrust of Birdlysle and Walsh only two years to figure this out. Well, maybe they haven't figured it out, but Dr. Goldfoot did. Props to you, sir, along with 95 percent of PD the past year and a half.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 07:33 PM
So, he must be taking minutes away from Jax, which means we play better when Jax is not in the lineup.

This is truly shocking. It took the great braintrust of Birdlysle and Walsh only two years to figure this out. Well, maybe they haven't figured it out, but Dr. Goldfoot did. Props to you, sir, along with 95 percent of PD the past year and a half.
Actually, he appears to have taken Fred Jones' minutes.

pizza guy
11-29-2006, 07:41 PM
So, he must be taking minutes away from Jax, which means we play better when Jax is not in the lineup.

This is truly shocking. It took the great braintrust of Birdlysle and Walsh only two years to figure this out. Well, maybe they haven't figured it out, but Dr. Goldfoot did. Props to you, sir, along with 95 percent of PD the past year and a half.

You mean to say that Stephen Jackson is bad for the Pacers? I don't believe it! Whatever you do, don't let ajbry see this!

Actually, I've got to give it to SJax for his better attitude this season, as well as his ability to get to the hoop. When SJax plays SF, in a third scorer role, I have no problem with him. As SG though, he's a black hole that is not consistent enough from the outside.

ajbry
11-29-2006, 07:48 PM
Actually Jack is still averaging 32 minutes a game, not up to par with the past couple of years (approximately 35), but he's been at the 3 a decent amount thus far this season.

Reggie4THREE!!!
11-29-2006, 08:37 PM
Anthem, you are hilarious. Runi has a good game and you still bad mouth him? I don't get it. Just admit that you were one of the one's who was calling for him to be cut in the preseason. He's a quality role player who will continue to play big minutes for us throughout the season. Is he the main reason we win? No. It seems like everybody on this board seems to forget that basketball is a team game and like the Adidas commercial says "It takes 5 baby". Runi is just one of reasons we can win this year. We are beginning to develop the versatile type of squad that Walsh and Bird envisioned. We can get out and run in transition, play a half court game featuring JO, use pick n roll's to creat dribble penetration or execute out of our flex sets. The more things we can do well on offense the harder we are to guard. On D we are getting better and rebounding will always be a weakness, but every team has its weaknesses. It's up to the coaching staff to scheme and adjust for it. The Butler Bulldogs at the college level are a great example of this. They are always going to get outrebounded and they are undersized, but they play great help defense and look to limit dribble penetration. Consequently they aren't going to get up in the passing lanes and put alot of pressure on the ball. Their philosophy is to not give other team easy looks and force them into making a mistake by becoming impatient. If you didn't already know this past week they beat Gonazaga, Indiana Tenessee, and Notre Dame. The Pacers might not win the NBA championship, but they are on the right track.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 10:08 PM
Actually, he appears to have taken Fred Jones' minutes.

that make sense (and AJ's too).

But, during this season, when Runi's minutes are up, who's are down instead?

Anthem
11-29-2006, 10:15 PM
Anthem, you are hilarious. Runi has a good game and you still bad mouth him?
Please answer these two questions.

1. Did you see last night's game?
2. Where in this thread did I "bad mouth" Runi?

D-BONE
11-29-2006, 10:43 PM
The Butler Bulldogs at the college level are a great example of this. They are always going to get outrebounded and they are undersized, but they play great help defense and look to limit dribble penetration. Consequently they aren't going to get up in the passing lanes and put alot of pressure on the ball. Their philosophy is to not give other team easy looks and force them into making a mistake by becoming impatient. If you didn't already know this past week they beat Gonazaga, Indiana Tenessee, and Notre Dame. The Pacers might not win the NBA championship, but they are on the right track.

You make some interesting points/comparisons here. I am ecstatic for Butler and their style and team work are refreshing. However, I would say that in terms of relative comparisons they have several important things going during their streak that the Pacers are far from solid in:

-The have good guard play.
-While the play good team defense, their guards are actually better than the Pacers (relatively) at stopping runaway dribble penetration.
-And perhaps most importantly, Butler can consistently place five players on the court that are good shooter from mid range to 3 PT range.

Disclaimer: Above are all relative due to the slippery slope of comparing two vastly different levels of basketball.

D-BONE
11-29-2006, 10:47 PM
I do agree with the idea the Saras needs to be confident he'll get a stable quantity of minutes in the rotation consistently. This seems only fair and not having that routine could be more detrimental than good. At least do it for a good stretch of games. Then if he isn't cutting the mustard or regresses, consider moving somebody else in if there is anybody else.