PDA

View Full Version : Blazers post game thread - Thankfully Tinsley sat the 4th quarter



Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 12:35 AM
I need to make this quick as it is getting late.

I assume it was as obvious to everyone watching as it was to me. The game turned in the Pacers favor because Saras and Armstrong played the whole fourth quarter. And please understand, it isn't that DA and Saras are that good - because they clearly aren't. But they play 100% unselfish ball on both ends, they move the ball, DA battles on defense, the Pacers overall ball movement and offensive efficiency is just so much better when they are in the game - or let me be more direct - it is better when Jax and Tinsley are on the bench

After a nice road win I don't want to dwell on the negative, but I have to say something about Tinsley's 3rd quarter performance. But as I don't want to ripped for being overly dramatic, let me just say his performance was embarrassingly bad. I have to assume he was who Rick was yelling at during that 20 second timeout.

Tonight I realized how starved I am for a new backcourt.

Moses
11-29-2006, 12:43 AM
Pacers biggest weakness at the moment is opponents guards getting penetration. This game would have been a blowout if Jack and Dixon hadn't gotten into the lane so easily.

Very good games all around from our team with the exception of Tinsley who had an off night. It was a team win tonight...alot of players came up big on certain posessions.

McKeyFan
11-29-2006, 12:45 AM
Anybody regret drafting Granger instead of Jerod Jack?

Anthem
11-29-2006, 12:48 AM
Anybody regret drafting Granger instead of Jerod Jack?
Nope. But I was very impressed with Jack.

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 12:49 AM
Pacers biggest weakness at the moment is opponents guards getting penetration. This game would have been a blowout if Jack and Dixon hadn't gotten into the lane so easily.

Very good games all around from our team with the exception of Tinsley who had an off night. It was a team win tonight...alot of players came up big on certain posessions.


That is why the Pacers lead the league in block shots and JO is second

Trader Joe
11-29-2006, 12:50 AM
Anybody regret drafting Granger instead of Jerod Jack?

Jack is good, but no. Granger is the superior talent.

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 12:51 AM
I wanted the Pacers to go after Jack hard this past summer. I posted a few threads in Blazers forums asking what it would take to get him, and I was quickly told that Jack is their future point guard. But the Pacers horrible point guard defense made him look good tonight

Anthem
11-29-2006, 12:53 AM
That is why the Pacers lead the league in block shots and JO is second
Carlisle took a page from his Detroit playbook.

Worked for him then, don't see why it wouldn't now.

Moses
11-29-2006, 12:54 AM
As an avid Georgia Tech fan, I would have liked to go after Jack..but I think the reason we didn't get him is because he didn't seem like a fit in Carlisle's system. Jack has always been an out of control type of player who can only really excel in up-tempo offenses. He was a hell of a defender in college..but he's lost some of his defensive demeanor since he got into the NBA.

Peck
11-29-2006, 01:35 AM
I need to make this quick as it is getting late.

I assume it was as obvious to everyone watching as it was to me. The game turned in the Pacers favor because Saras and Armstrong played the whole fourth quarter. And please understand, it isn't that DA and Saras are that good - because they clearly aren't. But they play 100% unselfish ball on both ends, they move the ball, DA battles on defense, the Pacers overall ball movement and offensive efficiency is just so much better when they are in the game - or let me be more direct - it is better when Jax and Tinsley are on the bench

After a nice road win I don't want to dwell on the negative, but I have to say something about Tinsley's 3rd quarter performance. But as I don't want to ripped for being overly dramatic, let me just say his performance was embarrassingly bad. I have to assume he was who Rick was yelling at during that 20 second timeout.

Tonight I realized how starved I am for a new backcourt.

I'm glad I saw this post because I was going to lose my mind if the only thing people were going to talk about was the play of O'Neal. He had a good game but he was hardly the only reason the team won.

I don't think you gave Jeff Foster enough or any credit for that game. IMO, the key to this game was Fosters defense of Randolph.

That may have been the single greatest defensive game I've ever seen Jeff play.

He went toe to toe with Zach, who is like a bull, & didn't give a inch. That is the defense I want to see every game from him. He wasn't finesse at all, this was actually a power defense that I am not used to seeing him play.

Also I know if you didn't watch the game and only look at the box score you will think that Baston stunk & even if you did watch you might have shaken your head at a couple of plays. But overall I thought he came in & did a very good job considering he only played 13 min. prior to tonight, all at garbage time. He was physical & man does the guy cover a lot of ground in a hurry.

This is nothing like the Baston I remember from the Raptors.

Like you I was really disappointed in Jamaals second half but I really didn't have a problem with Jackson. Although like you I much prefer the ball movement when the other two are in there. In fact I much prefer that to about anybody being in there. I think over the past 6 years that is the one thing I am sick to death of on this team is players pounding the air out of the ball.

I was happy with the offensive plays called by Carlisle in the second half.

I also was very pleased with Granger. Al had an ok night.

Good win by the team but let's not go to far with this. The same problems are still there.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 01:39 AM
I don't think you gave Jeff Foster enough or any credit for that game.
Hell has frozen over.

Mr.ThunderMakeR
11-29-2006, 01:56 AM
Any comments on Granger and his apparently successful move to the bench? I couldn't watch the game but his stat line looks pretty good.

Naptown_Seth
11-29-2006, 03:14 AM
Pacers biggest weakness at the moment is opponents guards getting penetration. This game would have been a blowout if Jack and Dixon hadn't gotten into the lane so easily.

Very good games all around from our team with the exception of Tinsley who had an off night. It was a team win tonight...alot of players came up big on certain posessions.
Disagree with Buck saying this is the sole reason JO is a top tier blocker this year. He's erasing mistakes by EVERYONE.

Granger at this point is mentally way behind the league. He's still at the thinking stage of the game and prone to make silly mistakes.

One of those was saved by a JO block when Danny went up court with his head down not really watching his man. Blazers recognized and passed up ahead of him leaving an apparently wide open layup/dunk from 20 feet out even. By the time he got there though JO was in position to erase it, and put it in Pacers control no less.

JO also blocked a couple of post-up moves tonight by their frontline.

Also, while the PnR defense was a problem and I have been the first to get on Tins and Saras for their problems, it wasn't just them. GRANGER again made another awful play when the Blazers screened for the screener, leaving JO blocked off the play by Danny's man and JO's man moving up the lane to set the high PnR. Danny just kept gaurding his man rather than properly switching, and say what you will about a PG, a decent pick with no help should free anyone for dribble penetration.


I actually thought both Tinsley and Sarunas looked acceptable on defense, which means they will suffer but as long as they scramble to stay in it and play strong offense then who cares. The Blazers worked the PnR all game long and that's not just the guards responsibility at that point. They could have tightened up their choices, like Tins going over top once when his man was showing drive the entire time (should have gone under with no shot threat being shown), but at least he was hustling through to make the play.



I like the tighter rotation. Basically a hard 8 - Sarunas, Granger and Daniels off the bench, bits of Armstrong. Baston when JO had to go to the locker room, and I assume a guy like Rawle, Powell or Greene would slip in for other types of injuries or foul problems.

The spacing was much better most of the time and I thought the plays ran much smoother. There were still some chemistry moments with passes surprising guys, stuff like that. But mostly it looked like guys were very comfortable with their roles, something we haven't seen all season.


Also, props to Cabbages. Without seeing the TOR game it seems to me that he's taken a step back to productivity. Forget the 3 ball. What I see is a guy playing with offensive confidence in the half court, especially off of PnRs. Heck, even a straight dribble curl to the lane (like a PnR without the pick) seems to work well for him.

At one point he aggressively drove to the heart of the defense only to feed Foster right under the basket for the easy layup by Jeff. He still had a lazy pass that was stolen, but he looked confident and certain about his options when facing full court pressure and even better once they hit the half court.

I've been ripping on the dude, but I think he might be finding his way back.

I've also been ripping Tinsley but I think he's also showing flashes of his better self. Perhaps both guys took some of their recent crap play to heart and set out to do something about it.


Daniels has done something to get bumped back down the rotation, though tonight I think we saw a little bit more of his normal use, where matchups might keep him on the court more than DA or Saras on some nights.


It's been my strong conviction that Granger was the starting lineup issue simply because he's still too green. As I mentioned he made plenty of bad mistakes, typically away from the ball where fans don't see which is why some nice shooting and a block or 2 make him appear great to the casual fan.

But he has been giving up as much as he gets with some of his mistakes - TOs, open layups, lost on defense, heck he even let his man the FT shooter get a rebound as he ended up BEHIND the Blazer that he was doubling on to help JO (ie, terrible technique). Sorry, but top guy MUST close out the shooter on a FT rebound...always. (this was not the FT that a guard snuck in from behind the shooter, that happened later)

Then he had the horrible pass to DA just 5 feet away where he hesitated and then threw it too soft, letting Dixon easily step in and take it. He got saved when Dixon thought he was falling out of bounds and threw the ball at DA's leg in an attempt to put it out on him. But he wasn't really on the line and the ball bounced right back to Danny who then went through an open-spaced court for an easy layup. Pure luck matched with a poor choice by Dixon (like something Danny does). It should have been Dixon passing to the center for Blazers dunk.

Danny even pulled the old jump up and then I-don't-know-what-I-meant-to-do travel. Pretty rough to watch.

Most of that stuff won't go in the box score but he did it and many others like it. You look at his line and it looks good. He did makes some nice shots. Of course he still camped the 3 line a bit too much and rarely took a SET play to the hoop for an inside score. Those shots typically came off of broken plays.

I don't think it was just luck that they had a better start with Jeff in and Danny on the bench. And I'm not anti-Granger at all. Love the kid, love the skills, love the hustle. I felt the same way about Harrington and Bender. But young players need to find their "aha" moment where the game starts to really click for them. Danny's still in "hold on, let me check my mental notes" mode which is why he works best in one on one situations or all out hustle plays, not so much when things get more complicated.

Let him work his way to the next level as the 6th man. I think it helps him in who he matches against, as well as what is expected of him. When a guy like Aldridge is out there making similar mistakes it evens out more.

Naptown_Seth
11-29-2006, 03:30 AM
Peck - Baston

Can't give him credit. He looked NEUTRAL to me. He didn't really get involved much at either end. The jury is out on him though it does appear that he also lacks a true feel for the NBA game.

The proof came when he had his big play - I sincerely saw this coming a mile away simply from watching all those Maccabi highlight reels. SarJas with the ball sees 1 on 1 for Baston at midcourt with no one really ahead of him. Right on that eye contact Baston increased his stride and a got a step or two ahead of his man by the FT line.

I never doubted that those 2 had that kind of connection, especially on that kind of alley-oop. It was a moment where the game stopped looking like an NBA game and showed a flash of the open Euro court. In other words, put him in situations that he is comfortable with and of course he (they) can excel, but the fact is that the NBA typically doesn't look like Euro ball.

My problem with the situation is that this is not the kind of thing that is available more than 2-3 times a game for the two of them, and then away from that you see far less impact, especially from Baston. He, like Danny and Powell, looks green. He's upbeat and positive, I enjoy seeing him giving it a go. I just think that fans are overrating him with the "he hasn't played so he must be great".

Baston typically did not space himself into position to make the kinds of plays he is comfortable with, such as shot blocking. He finds himself denied from those positions during the flow of the game, and it's not just chance.

And my other problem with Baston remains "why sign a 30+ year old guy to be the 2nd oldest player on the team when he needs as much PT to learn the NBA as perhaps Williams, Powell or Greene will?" I have hopes that all of them can take that next step. But only 3 of them will still have plenty of years left ahead of them when/if they do.

Peck
11-29-2006, 03:54 AM
Peck - Baston

Can't give him credit. He looked NEUTRAL to me. He didn't really get involved much at either end. The jury is out on him though it does appear that he also lacks a true feel for the NBA game.

The proof came when he had his big play - I sincerely saw this coming a mile away simply from watching all those Maccabi highlight reels. SarJas with the ball sees 1 on 1 for Baston at midcourt with no one really ahead of him. Right on that eye contact Baston increased his stride and a got a step or two ahead of his man by the FT line.

I never doubted that those 2 had that kind of connection, especially on that kind of alley-oop. It was a moment where the game stopped looking like an NBA game and showed a flash of the open Euro court. In other words, put him in situations that he is comfortable with and of course he (they) can excel, but the fact is that the NBA typically doesn't look like Euro ball.

My problem with the situation is that this is not the kind of thing that is available more than 2-3 times a game for the two of them, and then away from that you see far less impact, especially from Baston. He, like Danny and Powell, looks green. He's upbeat and positive, I enjoy seeing him giving it a go. I just think that fans are overrating him with the "he hasn't played so he must be great".

Baston typically did not space himself into position to make the kinds of plays he is comfortable with, such as shot blocking. He finds himself denied from those positions during the flow of the game, and it's not just chance.

And my other problem with Baston remains "why sign a 30+ year old guy to be the 2nd oldest player on the team when he needs as much PT to learn the NBA as perhaps Williams, Powell or Greene will?" I have hopes that all of them can take that next step. But only 3 of them will still have plenty of years left ahead of them when/if they do.

We watched two differant games then.

I saw Baston make great physical plays under the basket on the defensive end. Shot blocking, while a great attribute, is not the end all be all of defense. Just like stealing the ball does not make you a great defender either.

Two of the fouls that were called on him were iffy at best & one of them was absolute B.S.

Also I couldn't disagree more with you about the tight rotation. It is a long season, the more min. we put on people the less likely they are able to stay healthy for long periods of time.

If you then have players sitting on the pine then inevitably they are going to not have great production when called upon for any real length of service.

Also, I'm sorry but I am sick of small ball. Even with Foster in there, although IMO Jeff has made almost a 100% improvement from last season, I still consider the lineup small.

I want Powell, Baston or Harrison (probably in that order) to at least get a few min. a game just so we can have somebody to help with the bigger players. Did you see poor Al having to sumo wrestle Pryzbilla while J.O. was out? Wouldn't it have been nice if Harrison or Powell could have given Al a breaK?

To be frank, I like to see differant players get on the floor as well. Nothing bores me more than seeing the same guys night in and night out for 40 + min. a game.

As to your thoughts on Danny? Well, I can't let a post or a night go by without getting a shot in here somewhere.

Could it be that once he was away from Wilt jr. he was able to get the ball & do something besides just stand at the three point line waiting on a pass out?

I know they played a lot of min. together but by that time the Blazers had adjusted & the old soft double was in effect. So Danny starte ripping down the lane.

Also while we are at it & yes I blame the guards for a lot of this. But could someone explain to me how we have this supreme shot blocker yet we are # 3 in the NBA at allowing points in the paint?

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 09:16 AM
I don't think you gave Jeff Foster enough or any credit for that game. IMO, the key to this game was Fosters defense of Randolph.

That may have been the single greatest defensive game I've ever seen Jeff play.

He went toe to toe with Zach, who is like a bull, & didn't give a inch. That is the defense I want to see every game from him. He wasn't finesse at all, this was actually a power defense that I am not used to seeing him play.

Also I know if you didn't watch the game and only look at the box score you will think that Baston stunk & even if you did watch you might have shaken your head at a couple of plays. But overall I thought he came in & did a very good job considering he only played 13 min. prior to tonight, all at garbage time. He was physical & man does the guy cover a lot of ground in a hurry.

This is nothing like the Baston I remember from the Raptors.



I thought Jeff's defense was fabulous - but then I always think it is (at least when he doesn't get into foul trouble). I too thought Baston came in a did a good job - it makes a diffeence him being 31 years old as vs 21.


I thought overall Granger looked freed up and was much more active offensively. His offensive game is going to take off when he's in there with Saras, DA and Daniels.


There was a time last night when I looked on the floor and I loved how we were playing and I loved who was out there. I meant to make a mental note about who was on the floor - but I didn't - I think it was Saras, DA, Granger, JO and someone else, but I forget.

Seed
11-29-2006, 09:48 AM
There was a time last night when I looked on the floor and I loved how we were playing and I loved who was out there. I meant to make a mental note about who was on the floor - but I didn't - I think it was Saras, DA, Granger, JO and someone else, but I forget.
I'm guessing the 5th was Foster. Our top5 +- performers by hazard ;)

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 10:15 AM
I'm guessing the 5th was Foster. Our top5 +- performers by hazard ;)

I think you are correct - it was

DA, Saras, Granger, Foster, JO.

Los Angeles
11-29-2006, 01:44 PM
I mentioned in my Toronto game report that Rick pulled Tinsley in the 4th quarter with about 5:00 to go, and replaced him with the DA/Saras combination.

Is this a trend we can expect to continue in the 4th quarter of games?

Maybe in the first quarter too.

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 01:56 PM
I mentioned in my Toronto game report that Rick pulled Tinsley in the 4th quarter with about 5:00 to go, and replaced him with the DA/Saras combination.

Is this a trend we can expect to continue in the 4th quarter of games?



Rick has been a coach with the Pacers for over 3 seasons - he has coached close to 300 games as Pacers coach, and I've seen everyone of those games but I've never seen him that upset before and I think he was upset with Tinsley. This was midway through the 3rd quarter when the Pacers had just given away their 11 point lead partially because Tinsley had a terrible turnover, took two really bad shots, and seemingly stopped playing any defense on Jack.

Rick likes the combo of DA and Saras (it isn't that they are that good - but the impact they have on the team is striking to me). There will be times when Rick won't play Saras due to defensive maychups - but he likes those two guys playing together

able
11-29-2006, 02:18 PM
Rick has been a coach with the Pacers for over 3 seasons - he has coached close to 300 games as Pacers coach, and I've seen everyone of those games but I've never seen him that upset before and I think he was upset with Tinsley. This was midway through the 3rd quarter when the Pacers had just given away their 11 point lead partially because Tinsley had a terrible turnover, took two really bad shots, and seemingly stopped playing any defense on Jack.

Rick likes the combo of DA and Saras (it isn't that they are that good - but the impact they have on the team is striking to me). There will be times when Rick won't play Saras due to defensive maychups - but he likes those two guys playing together

The length some of you go through to paint the picture you want to see.... It amazes me no end.

JT was sub'd in the 3rd with 4.01 to play in the quarter, during FT's as a results from a Jax foul, the last plays before that were a 3 by Al (5.48) JO Injured (5.22) airball Al (5.02 ) Jax score (4.22) foul Jax (4.01) Sara for Tins.

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 02:30 PM
The length some of you go through to paint the picture you want to see.... It amazes me no end.

JT was sub'd in the 3rd with 4.01 to play in the quarter, during FT's as a results from a Jax foul, the last plays before that were a 3 by Al (5.48) JO Injured (5.22) airball Al (5.02 ) Jax score (4.22) foul Jax (4.01) Sara for Tins.

Rick was upset (I think at Tinsley) during a 20 second timeout - and JT was not taken out of the game at that point. I've never even hinted that Rick took Tinsley out of the game during the timeout.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 02:36 PM
Gotta go with able on this one, UB. The Pacers started the third up five, 51-46. When Tinsley subbed out with 4:01 left in the quarter, the Pacers were up three, 66-63. JO had already twisted his ankle at this point, and Randolph was on a tear.

We didn't lose the lead with Jamaal in the game.

Naptown_Seth
11-29-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm guessing the 5th was Foster. Our top5 +- performers by hazard ;)
I don't know about that considering how the Pacers went at the start of the game and in the early 3rd. Last I checked Pacers.com still had TOR +/- up.


BTW, speaking of +/-, I'm not big on comparing players of different game situations (bench vs starters basically), but what in the heck is up with HUGE difference in +/- for Harrington and Tinsley compared to JO and Granger? Jack saw some bench minutes so I can see how he might have gotten separated from them.

But you can't just blame slow starts since JO is in the game then too.



Could it be that once he was away from Wilt jr. he was able to get the ball & do something besides just stand at the three point line waiting on a pass out?
Um...he didn't do that. He did camp the 3 point line. And on top of that he still spent plenty of time on the court with JO.

Peck, you know that beyond the game tape, which I do have available, that the shooting chart also is easily accessable.

He had as many MISSES from at or just inside the arc as he did MAKES in the paint. One of his makes in the paint was the layup where he threw the ball DIRECTLY to Dixon. Dixon didn't "lose control" like Clark said at the time, he clearly thought he was going out of bounds and needed to save possession by throwing it off of Armstrong's leg. It bounced right back to Danny and he easily walked through the open court for a simply layup. Pure luck and a dumb play by Dixon. Another one of Danny's inside shots was with JO on the court at the end of the 4th when Danny had his shot at the rim stuffed in his face



Danny's first bucket - the Pacers standard play (which T-bird and I discussed) in which Jack screens for Danny and then JO drops to the low block and let's Jack curl around him to take the pass from Tinsley. The first option on the play is a backdoor pass to Danny if his man lags on the screen or they don't switch.

It was a PLAY created by RICK which also featured JO on the court. Danny caught the pass from Tinsley at the rim and put it in.

Right after that JO blocks a shot by Magloire, Danny is the first guy out since he was up top at the time of the play...and guess where he runs to on the other end?

The freaking 3pt line. You know, where people complain about Jack going to the 3pt line on a transition instead of to the basket. Al and Tinsley went into the paint, Danny stood in front of the Pacers bench and watched as Tinsley took (and missed) the FT line jumper.

JO wasn't in the way on this, he was last back since the play started with him under the rim outletting his own block that he recovered.


(mental error just for good measure)
A few seconds later Udoka shoots FTs and Danny is the high man on the lane, instead of blocking out Udoka and generally cutting off the lane, he instead leans into Randolph and ends up BEHIND HIM with his BACK TO THE RIM as the FT hits iron and goes right back to Udoka. Keep in mind that JO had Randolph blocked out already, so I have no idea what DG thought he was doing there.


When Danny nabbed the offensive board just a little after that it was because he was playing weakside LANE with JO in the post. Yes, Danny was the other guy placed near the rim on the play, in spite of JO being on the court (something you suggest doesn't happen). The play was a potential ball reversal post switch in which Jack feeds JO and if they want to swap sides they rotate out to Al and around to Tinsley who then feeds Danny (if DG's man cheats or helps too much). Again, this is a standard set the Pacers run which features DG on the inside while JO is on the court.

The 2:50 mark, mild transistion, Danny again goes to the arc to camp. This time Tins feeds him and he makes a mild attempt to dribble baseline but is quickly cut off and must pass the ball away. A few seconds later Al took his man off the dribble easily.

2:20, Saras feeds Jeff going to the lane (fumbles pass, TO). Even as the ball went in and his man dropped hard to double Jeff, Danny just stood on the arc waiting for the deep kickout despite the fact that Jeff was in his shooting motion even as he tried to catch it (quick put up off a cutting catch...but he rushed it). JO was out off the weakside and not "in the way" at all.

1:23 - Daniels feeds Danny at the arc, he takes 1 dribble in, jumps in the air (in traffic) and does a Fred Jones spin pass back out to Quis. MD steps in for a closer jumper and as he does so Danny LEAVES the inside. He just drifts back upcourt while watching the shot instead of going on in toward the rim. JO ended up getting the offensive board on his own (Foster was in the mix but double blocked).

After JO gets the rebound on the wing DANIELS slashes to the lane as they come back into the offensive end (prior to the actually play). Granger? Camps the arc to the point that you can't even see him on camera.

JO OUT - near the end of the quarter (less than 24) ball hurries into the front court. Granger goes to the high arc and CALLS for the ball. It's 15 seconds left in the half with no shot clock. Saras does not pass to him obviously.

Now Danny does get a close jumper to early in the 2nd, but it's due to the Blazers showing a full court press. Saras passes ahead to Danny who quickly is behind Randolph and is able to get to about 5 feet away before a Blazer gets in front of him. Not to discredit DG, this is a great, smart play. Just saying that it was a broken defense and not a normal situation. If DG had been without the ball, say Jack was the one coming up, then it's quite possible that Granger would have sat on the arc yet again.

WITH JO STILL OUT - Danny procedes to take THREE 3pt shots in a 90 second window, and bear in mind that he missed the first one so it wasn't like he started hot and kept going.

Here's the basics:

11:07 - Saras gives him the ball, he shows shot fake and jab step, never uses a dribble, then makes a soft pass to Saras that is tipped and almost stolen.

10:33 - Granger lingers on the right arc yet again as Quis works as the PG off the double high pick. Quis goes right (off Foster) and passes to Danny. He looks briefly and kicks it back out. When Saras makes the strong drive to the lane to hand off to Foster underneath you see Danny still standing on the arc CALLING FOR THE ball for a 3pt shot. Sorry, I'll take the Foster layup inside instead.

(good note - right here Danny blocks an awkward layup attempt by Outlaw off the sideline in-bounds)

9:50 - rebound transition, Saras pushes it up with a pass to Quis running, Al had gone to the low post ahead of the pack. This ends up being Al's baseline spin layup score. But in the meantime Danny? Camps immediately outside the opposite side 3 arc

9:20 - rinse, repeat. Danny stands in the same spot, arm up for the ball as Saras drives. Saras takes his own shot and misses, offensive board, pass finally to Danny calling for it. 3pt miss, no dribble, no other look, even though Outlaw was awkwardly closing on him and he could easily blow past him and shoot over the PG (if he could even get there in time to cut him off)

(bad defensive note - Granger sags way too far off Outlaw on a PnR which gives Travis a wide open jumper make)

8:46 - play off timeout, double high pick, Saras goes right off of Foster, kicks to Danny on the right baseline arc. DG shoots and hits it.

8:21 - Danny finally transitions away from the arc, on a breakout (semi-cherry pick) he is ahead of the crowd for a certain layup, but lets the long pass go off his fingertips and out of bounds for a TO. Still, at least he didn't run to the arc this time.

7:55 - Danny does do a nice job to run baseline past the Al postup on a "hurry up" rebound transition (ie, the quickly moved to a HC setup rather than a full break). But then he goes to the right arc and camps. Ball comes to him and he rotates it, comes back to him and he shoots and makes, again with no look to drive...and no JO to blame


Okay, this is more than enough to make the point about Danny camping the 3. Sometimes I'm sure its by design, but he also does it on mixed transition (ie, if he's not alone and in front of the pack), so it's also part of his mindset.

At no time, JO on or not, did Danny exhibit any serious level of dribble penetration, and when you suggest it as "proof" for a point (about JO) when it is so clearly proven otherwise it really suggests to me that you are simply seeing the game you want to see.

Ragnar
11-29-2006, 02:48 PM
Gotta go with able on this one, UB. The Pacers started the third up five, 51-46. When Tinsley subbed out with 4:01 left in the quarter, the Pacers were up three, 66-63. JO had already twisted his ankle at this point, and Randolph was on a tear.

We didn't lose the lead with Jamaal in the game.

Thank you

I just saw this thread and my head about exploded.

We did not lose the lead when Jamaal was in despite J.O. going down. We lost the lead when Saras and Armstrong were in. We regained the lead when J.O. came back and dominated.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 02:50 PM
... because Tinsley ... seemingly stopped playing any defense on Jack.
Jack scored 2 FG and 1 FT on Tinsley in the third quarter (8 minutes), for a total of 5 points. Against Sarunas in the third quarter (4 minutes), Jack had 4 FT for a total of 4 points.

So Jack scored 5 points against Tinsley in 8 minutes, and 4 points against Saras in 4 minutes.

Not seeing it.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 02:51 PM
We did not lose the lead when Jamaal was in despite J.O. going down. We lost the lead when Saras and Armstrong were in. We regained the lead when J.O. came back and dominated.
No, we lost the lead when Sarunas was in by himself. In the third quarter, with DA and Sarunas both in, we did just fine.

Saras plays fine, as long as he doesn't have to be a point guard.

rm1369
11-29-2006, 02:52 PM
Gotta go with able on this one, UB. The Pacers started the third up five, 51-46. When Tinsley subbed out with 4:01 left in the quarter, the Pacers were up three, 66-63. JO had already twisted his ankle at this point, and Randolph was on a tear.

We didn't lose the lead with Jamaal in the game.

I remember it almost exactly as UB said. Pacers had an 11 point lead, someone misses a decent shot and foster chases down the rebound. He gives it to JT who immediantly launches a bad three. From there I don't remember the exact order of events but JT had several vary bad turnovers / shots and quit playing D. I specifically remember thinking JT was single handedly keeping portland in the game. It wasn't a long stretch, maybe 4-5 posessions, but it was enough to erase an 11 point lead.

Naptown_Seth
11-29-2006, 02:53 PM
In contrast to that (my Granger log up above) I will go rewatch Baston's 6 minutes and look for these great defensive plays. I will say that he was -3 on the quarter if you count the 2nd FT make that came from a foul while he was still on court (I count FTs lingering as part of the scoring for the person on court when the foul occured).

O#1 - sat weakside, not really involved, rebound went away from his area

D#1 - Randolph shot right over him for the make

O#2 - set a mild pick for JO, mostly out of the play, was inside for a possible rebound when Jack made his lane jumper

D#2 - decently physical with Zach, but semi-picked Jackson when his man drove baseline as Zach crossed and then drifted out of the lane (Jack fouls)

O#3 - PnR with Saras, Pryz denies entry pass so Saras rotates to Granger (on the arc, what a surprise). Baston struggles to get post position despite his man having to recover from the PnR and catch up to him. Danny makes a nice 2 dribble drive to the lane (that's more like it), jump passes to Baston on the baseline. Baston turns into Zach, fumbles the pass and it rolls away from him. It ends up in DGs hands with Blazers on the floor or stumbling, DG pops the mid-jumper.

D#3 - Baston fully extends his arm and shoves Zach has he crosses the lane. Baston had fronted him on the other side which gave Zach a space advantage when he crossed the lane. This was NOT a bad call, and not even close to the legal arm bar. In the penalty, Zach shoots and makes 2

O#4 - Saras carries the ball at the HC line.

D#4 - Strong post defense by Baston on Zach, missed baseline fade, but when Pryz taps it away from Jack Baston stops and watches the play as Zach comes from farther away to chase down the ball. Because of this lapse Baston is forced to defend the layup drive by Zach from inside the charge circle. Zach misses this shot, but it's not because it wasn't a good look.

O#5 - Comes to the lane at one point looking for a pass, but basically not involved. The rebound off the DANNY 3PT MISS (again, no surprise there) goes toward Baston but he is holding off Pryz which gives Outlaw room to easily get the rebound.

D#5 - Baston lets Zach slide out when he gets caught ball hawking. Jack sees Zach come free and moves to him. Only then does Baston realize he's lost his man and when he runs out to also cover Zach it leaves Outlaw a wide open path to the goal. Baston tries to recover but it turned sideways and still moving when Outlaw runs into him. Clear blocking foul, again I see no reason to question this, it's pretty routine. Basket and one (which is missed)

O#6 - again another "stay out of the way" set for Baston. Nothing wrong, just not involved and looking for rebound spaces. Saras makes a shot off a dribble drive.

D#6 - Zach almost loses his dribble to Jack, gets a high bounce semi-out of control dribble going and then tries to cross over Baston. Baston defends decently and the shot is nowhere close. However, if this was JO you would rip into him for crazy wild crap shot like this. Baston was fine here, but not special in any way.

O#7 - very light PnR by Baston with Saras (meaning no physical contact with the defender), he again stays out of the way looking for rebound spots and eventual coming out to pick for Jack just about the time Jack puts up (and makes) a 3. Not a big fan of him leaving the rebounding area just when a shot is going up, but this could be as much on Jack as him.

Honestly though, Baston looks lost on offense at this point.

D#7 - Zach sits low post weakside and Jack drives hard on the other side. Baston reads it very well and makes a strong shot block. Unfortunately this doesn't count because Harrington fouled before the shot. 2 FTs taken and made.

ZACH GOES TO THE BENCH

O#8 - Stay out of the way. POR is in zone and Aldridge gets the lane violation because of it. Saras makes the tech.

In-bounds to Al who has it stolen (crap play by Al), Baston not involved as he is on the high weakside staying out of the way.

D#8 - Baston helps on a scren and catch well. He tries to take a good charge, but he blatently pulls up his right foot and moves it about 3 feet in a weird attempt to turn, almost like the ball was passed and he's rotating to defend the baseline. This was a call that at first everyone groaned about, but on replay it's really obvious that before Jack gets there that Baston has moved that foot.

Again its very odd because it's not the point of contact. Clark suggested it was Saras running into him, but it's not. That's the wrong side. His left foot/side stays planted, even during contact. It's the foot away from the play that he is clearly moving for some reason so he can turn his hips. I mean he nearly puts his right foot ONTO his left foot after having them planted about 5 feet from each other in a good, solid base.

Maybe he was just shying from the hard contact, putting his hip to it instead of his chest. In any case, he had position and just gave it up for no apparent (good) reason. Not a bad call, just poor execution of an otherwise great play.

2FT makes

O#9 - Baston sits baseline out of the way waiting to sneak in to rebound or catch a pass off a drive. Aldridge gets another lane tech, Saras hits.

Stays weakside elbow, Jack goes inside and Baston's man Aldridge leaves him to block Jack's shot. Another non-event possession by Baston.

D#9 - On the drive Baston comes too late to help Al which leaves Aldridge with a huge path to the basket. Pass goes to him and has he steps easily past Baston, Baston trips over Al's leg and falls to the floor. Aldridge gets what should have been a dunk, Granger's defense helps a lot, but then Danny fouls him on the rebound.

Baston sits as Aldridge makes both FTs and the game is tied (he came in with the Pacers leading by 3).



Sorry, I see one nice play against Zach. A couple of medium things. No involvement on offense at all expect for one fumbled pass right at the goal. 3 legit fouls, all caused by how he chose to play, not just bad breaks.

He did have a great defensive set going till he pulled his foot on what would have been a charge, but the fact is that he did pull that foot pretty obviously.

In my initital comments I didn't rip Baston, I said mostly NEUTRAL. I stand by that still. He was given very little to do on offense, mostly was off to the side, and POR attacked the snot out of him when Zach was on the court, mostly with decent success.

Baston was SERVICABLE for the time being, but he was not winning his battle with Zach. His play was much more similar to Aldridge, who also looked out of place most of the time.


PS - I didn't leave out the alley-oop and 1 minute of 4th quarter play on purpose, I just got tired of doing this and had already logged his prime period of floor time.

imawhat
11-29-2006, 02:55 PM
As to your thoughts on Danny? Well, I can't let a post or a night go by without getting a shot in here somewhere.

Could it be that once he was away from Wilt jr. he was able to get the ball & do something besides just stand at the three point line waiting on a pass out?


Not having to defer to Jermaine/Al helps, but it's the mentality that he has to defer and that he couldn't find his niche in the starting lineup that prove Granger's immaturity.

I think he has a chance to be great, but he still looks clueless at times. Like Seth said, he's been running up court without keeping an eye on transition and looks lost on some defensive rotations. You could see Jax and JO both pull Granger aside last night to give advice. The good news is that Granger recognizes his mistakes, listens to his teammates, and doesn't keep his head down. And it's all mental, and it could "click" with him before the year is over.




Also while we are at it & yes I blame the guards for a lot of this. But could someone explain to me how we have this supreme shot blocker yet we are # 3 in the NBA at allowing points in the paint?


One reason...dribble penetration. It only takes 3 blocks per game to be a supreme shot blocker, and teams are getting 20-30 shots near the basket against us.

I'm looking forward to seeing Jermaine's blocks/game go down as a result of better penetration defense. I'm also wondering when/if Greene will start getting minutes as a result.

rm1369
11-29-2006, 02:56 PM
No, we lost the lead when Sarunas was in by himself. In the third quarter, with DA and Sarunas both in, we did just fine.

Saras plays fine, as long as he doesn't have to be a point guard.

Look at the play by play for the 3rd starting at 8:02 and finishing with 4 minutes.

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 02:57 PM
When Tinsley took that horrible three after Jeff had been working so hard to get rebounds, I said to myself, don't even bother Jeff.

I stand by everything else I posted in this thread, except, OK, the 11 point lead dropped to a 3 point lead. Is that a major point

Anthem
11-29-2006, 02:59 PM
In my initital comments I didn't rip Baston, I said mostly NEUTRAL. I stand by that still. He was given very little to do on offense, mostly was off to the side, and POR attacked the snot out of him when Zach was on the court, mostly with decent success.
Yup, that's how I felt as well.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 03:04 PM
OK, the 11 point lead dropped to a 3 point lead. Is that a major point
The five-point lead dropped to a 3-point lead.

The 11-point lead was only for a couple possessions... it's not like it was ever a solid lead. We hung at 9 for a while, but 11 only rarely. And never more than 11.

BTW, Tinsley was on the court when the lead went from 5 to 11. Surely that's got to count for something.

imawhat
11-29-2006, 03:06 PM
When Tinsley took that horrible three after Jeff had been working so hard to get rebounds, I said to myself, don't even bother Jeff.


That play sparked Portland's comeback, and it's the third time this season that we've taken a very bad shot with a 10+ point lead only to watch the other team make a run directly afterwards.


I don't know what Jamaal's problem is, but he hasn't looked good this year. He's shown very brief flashes, but that's it. Complete mystery to me.

Naptown_Seth
11-29-2006, 03:39 PM
Tinsley was on the court when they ran the lead TO 11 from 5 too. But JO and Foster were a big part of this. Here is the sequence under discussion basically.

JO went on a drive for a score, Foster takes the Zach charge (great play by Foster), Jack feeds Al cutting baseline after an in-bounds...59-48

They traded baskets - Tins stopped Jack on the PnR, they posted Zach vs Foster and Zach made a nice play for the score. JO just popped a catch and shoot mid-jumper.

Jack did nothing, they posted Zach, missed shot, foul on the rebound by Foster.

Pacers zoned with Tins up top. JJack was in Jackson's area, eventually dribbled in and missed a long jumper.

Jack forces a crap jumper over Pryz (the bad side of Jackson), but Foster rebounds. Tinsley then puts up an unexplainable 3pt shot with 22 on the clock. Now he's left free by Jack to shoot this, but no one is even moving yet, there is no set going....really bad choice by Tins here (unless he was a 38-40% guy, which he isn't).

They run PnR with Jack and Pryz, cutoff fine by Tins and Al. Over to Zach to attack Foster. He pops an off-balance fade elbow jumper (Zach has a killer touch, that's for sure).

Al has Udoka fronting him with no help behind. Tinsley throws the pass over the top, Al falls to the floor, easy steal for Udoka. IMO Tinsley read the play better than Al, who was still moving away from the bucket even though he had a smaller guy fronting him with empty space to the bucket behind him. Tins read it well, Al got caught moving the wrong direction which is when he tripped on Udoka's foot.

Tins defends the ball as Udoka brings the transition right up the middle. JJack runs right wing and Tins is forced to foul Jack to prevent the layup. This was caused by the blown play at the other end.

Jack then misses the 2nd FT and Udoka comes down the lane for the rebound. Tinsley is out with Udoka and perhaps is supposed to yell out a warning (hey, for all I know he did). But Tinsley does move to the right baseline to either take the ball out of bounds, get a long right direction tip, or be there for a big to pass to after the rebound.

The PG is NOT IN CHARGE of defending the lane from a guy sneaking in from behind the FT shooter.

It was HARRINGTON who didn't even bother to watch the ball that left the lane unprotected. He was the high lane man and he just turns and starts walking up court when the shot goes up. Why? Because Pryz is doing it too, so Al buys into it and fails to make his normal blockout of the shooter (and anyone coming from that way). Even as the ball hits the rim Al just looks and keeps walking. JO had it but it bounced to the other side where Foster was left unguarded as well and was just ball hawking. This left Jack free to catch the ball well below the rim and put a quick shot back up.

Now JO was up above the rim trying to get the ball, Foster was guilty of not coming to the ball, but he was in block out position even though no one was there to block out (left side, not middle lane). Al was the guy who was not defending the rebound, not blocking out, nothing.

Even Jackson came to the lane from the other side to help out. After the score you see Jackson just look back up court to Al and sort of shake his head. For a second he just stands in disgust before realizing that they still need to play ball (which honestly is an understandable reaction at this point). Actually on another look I think he and Foster are both looking at Rick who is probably saying something, either "F'n TIMEOUT!" ;) or something worse.

It is a 6 point game down from 11...not exactly a collapse.

Now, does Al not hustle enough? Of course he hustles. Does he typically make a bunch of mistakes? No. Was this all his fault? No.

But it sure as heck wasn't just Tinsley. The bad pass was flat-out an on-court chemistry issue. Given time Al would read that oop situation better or see it in Tinsley's look.


Anyway, Rick IS NOT YELLING at Tinsley. You clearly see him say "Let's go! Let's go!" and then he gives Foster some direction (pointing and explaining), and actually JO, Al and probably all 5 of them. He points to the lane I think and perhaps says "block" as one of the words.

In general this is a coach that has seem the team lose concentration and fire and is using the timeout to give them a kick in the pants to wake them up. He doesn't pull Tinsley early in his rotation time, and actually the Pacers are still winning the 3rd by 1 point.


Tinsley also isn't getting killed by Jack one on one, the Blazers are running hard PnRs at them and he is forced to run between Zach and Foster (or others at other times). This is where the big must make the turn slow for the ball handler, and the help from down low has to turn the PG away.

ALL PGs (well nearly all) can be beat if they don't get help on a PnR. On the play that makes it a 4 point game it is JACKSON that starts to come close off the path but buys into a pass fake and jumps back out of the way to cover his man. JO is also part of the problem as Pryz just turns him out of the play and actually runs JO into Tinsley a little bit. It's a team level breakdown.

I'm not saying Tins hasn't been struggling on defense this year, I'm just saying these PnRs aren't examples of that. The Blazers really attacked the zone with the PnR which was where it was especially effective.

Dr. Goldfoot
11-29-2006, 03:57 PM
but what in the heck is up with HUGE difference in +/- for Harrington and Tinsley compared to JO and Granger?


Jo didn't play in the blowout loss to the Wiz. Other than JO, Danny has the most minutes played. He's played with the second unit and during some mop up time the other starters watched from the sidelines.

Dr. Goldfoot
11-29-2006, 04:07 PM
really bad choice by Tins here (unless he was a 38-40% guy, which he isn't).




Technically, even after his 0 for 4 performance last night he's still shooting .351, going into the game he was shooting .394. He's shooting pretty well from beyond the arc with as many attempts as Runi(39) and Armstong(39).

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 05:33 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Rick yelling at Jamaal, if you notice I always posted the disclaimer (I think), but I know I was yelling at him and was glad he sat out the last 16 minutes of the game

Bball
11-29-2006, 06:12 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about Rick yelling at Jamaal, if you notice I always posted the disclaimer (I think), but I know I was yelling at him and was glad he sat out the last 16 minutes of the game

Hater!


;)

-Bball

Bball
11-29-2006, 06:17 PM
Nobody disputes Jamaal can't make some good plays and handle the ball really well. What is in dispute is his ability to sustain high levels of smart play, not only throughout a game, but consecutive games.

He has a tendency to want to dominate the ball and he has a tendency to not value possessions as much as he should. Particularly when he feels he needs to 'one-up' someone. So for all the good you want to point to, he needs to minimize this stuff (and stay healthy and committed) to actually live up to some of the hype that has built around him in fandom.

-Bball

Anthem
11-29-2006, 06:32 PM
Nobody disputes Jamaal can't make some good plays and handle the ball really well. What is in dispute is his ability to sustain high levels of smart play, not only throughout a game, but consecutive games.

He has a tendency to want to dominate the ball and he has a tendency to not value possessions as much as he should. Particularly when he feels he needs to 'one-up' someone. So for all the good you want to point to, he needs to minimize this stuff (and stay healthy and committed) to actually live up to some of the hype that has built around him in fandom.
And neither Seth or I would disagree with that. I've already said that I'd love an upgrade at PG.

I'm just saying that while Jamaal wasn't shooting very well, he wasn't having as bad a game as UncleBuck was saying.

rexnom
11-29-2006, 07:28 PM
Question, why is it the a JO-Foster front court is bad?

Unclebuck
11-29-2006, 08:09 PM
I only said he was having a bad third quarter.

Anthem
11-29-2006, 09:22 PM
I only said he was having a bad third quarter.
Upon further review, Unclebuck is right.

In this instance. Don't let it go to your head.

Naptown_Seth
12-02-2006, 01:56 AM
And neither Seth or I would disagree with that. I've already said that I'd love an upgrade at PG.

I'm just saying that while Jamaal wasn't shooting very well, he wasn't having as bad a game as UncleBuck was saying.
Yeah, this is where I'm coming from as well. Just like I wasn't calling Baston bad or anything, just really neutral for the game.

Tinsley COULD BE a perfectly fine PG if he'd not sometimes force seemingly dumb things or get in those playground manhood battles. He's not going to be a great "denial" defender, but he can create plenty of TOs. The rest of his game often shows some pretty solid craftiness.

Frankly I feel the same way about Saras. It just seemed that the NBA figured him out and he was done for good after seeing the pre-season play (which was just so terrible you had to be concerned). Now it looks like maybe it was just a confidence thing. He, like Tins, still makes mistakes on offense and isn't a good defender but can make the offense go well enough that it doesn't matter.

The 2 of them with splashes of DA (or Greene at some point) could be effective enough PG solutions for this team. But the Pacers need their smart and/or confident games out there.



And UB I think you were originally saying that Tins CREATED the big flop and that Rick yelled at him and shortly after yanked him for it. That's why a lot of the flack came out. I assure you that while I post a lot I sure as F wouldn't have gone to the lengths of reviewing and posting the sequence in question as a response to "Tinsley was having a bad 3rd". ;) :)