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View Full Version : JO - Al, more shots? facts:



able
11-27-2006, 08:52 AM
So on the 17th JO had a hearty meeting with the staff and told them he wanted more shots in the low-post.
Some have taken this statement and ran off with it, not just around the corner but almost on a world tour.
The statement now leads its own live, re-occurring at regular interval in bball's theories of hidden agendas and made Peck stop posting.

So, has JO gotten more touches, seeing the reactions undoubtedly.
Seeing the numbers, also likely ? his scoring avg is way up so all the conspiracy theories can be underwritten, Al's is down so case is proven.......

Not quite; some "facts"

14 games in, both players have played 13 games (1 DNP)
As Al's games was the first game AFTER the above mentioned talk, I have added that game to the "pre-talk" stats, so that both have exactly tjhe same amount of games before and after the talk.

Additionally the game where JO sat out was lost, the game Al sat out was won.

now some stats over the first 10 games:
avg fga fgm % avg reb avg Ast avg Bs avg Pts
Al 15.56 0.500 6.33 1.22 0 19.22
JO 15.67 0.433 9.00 2.33 3.67 16.00




Over the last 4 games (i.e. AFTER the talk):

Al 12.00 0.292 11.75 1.50 0.25 8.00
JO 14.50 0.517 10.25 3.00 2.50 23.25


So let me get thsi straight, JO moving more into the low post, took away Al's shooting touch, and on top of that 3.5 fga's per game, which at his current % is about 1 fgm per game
However, in fact JO is not getting MORE shots, he's getting LESS
Shooting at a FAR higher percentage, i.e over 500, he did not only improve his shooting percentage, on less shots, but also increased his Ast ratio (@ 3 per game now) his rebounding, now over 10, and hsi scoring, now over 23 per game

Though Al's fg % has dropped considerably, his "other" numbers have increased. his rebounding nearly doubled. his Ast ratio went up, and he even blocked a shot.

Now let's assume that this has all happened (except for Al's slump) due to the "talk" JO had with TPTB, can anyone argue that is was NOT for the betterment of the team? Can anyone argue that JO is selfish, wanting to take "more" shots?
or are there after 4 (5) games after the date some people ready to say "I misjudged the matter and am glad it happened seeing as the productivity had a positive outcome from it."

Los Angeles
11-27-2006, 12:23 PM
Good post. As I saw it, there were two ways to interpret JO's "talk."

1) JO wants the ball more - i.e. he is selfish. The stats say "no".

2) JO wants to run the team and tell the coach how to do his job - i.e. JO is egotistical. The jury is still out on this one.

Ultimately, neither of these things matter, because after "the talk" we have not shown any improvement as a team. Day in and day out, the starters are not getting the job done.

Tom White
11-27-2006, 12:44 PM
Well, nice try there Able. The one thing missing is the change in the number of free throw attempts per game by JO. The last five games he has been taking about 9.4 FT's per game, as opposed to about 2.7 FT's per game earlier in the season.

Now, I think everyone knows that when a player is fouled on a shot attempt, that shot only counts as an attempt if the ball goes in. In other words they don't "penalize" player with a missed attempt on a shot during which he was fouled.

Could it be that JO is actually taking as many, if not more, shots as before but because of where he is shooting from, he is getting fouled more often and not being assessed a missed attempt on those shots?

I just thought it was interesting that your posted stats included everything (reb's, assists, blocks) but free throws.

Naptown_Seth
11-27-2006, 01:07 PM
Well, nice try there Able. The one thing missing is the change in the number of free throw attempts per game by JO. The last five games he has been taking about 9.4 FT's per game, as opposed to about 2.7 FT's per game earlier in the season.

Now, I think everyone knows that when a player is fouled on a shot attempt, that shot only counts as an attempt if the ball goes in. In other words they don't "penalize" player with a missed attempt on a shot during which he was fouled.

Could it be that JO is actually taking as many, if not more, shots as before but because of where he is shooting from, he is getting fouled more often and not being assessed a missed attempt on those shots?

I just thought it was interesting that your posted stats included everything (reb's, assists, blocks) but free throws.
I think you have to view this as him working out of the low post. In the last few years his FTAs per game were much better than they've been so far this year, possibly due to too many jumpers per post attempt.

I don't know about touches. I really think its a more about where JO is getting the ball on offense. Al is just in a slump IMO, no different than the first few games of the season in the "other" system. Al presses at times and relies on turnarounds and fades that can make him streaky.


HOWEVER, JO didn't help his "bossy/selfish" case with his post-Toronto comments. On the heels of his office rant a little over a week or so ago he is starting to come off as "demanding". It's tough to get on him too much because he's been playing some great ball (other than sitting under the rim watching rebounds at times) but I'm not sure how his harsh complaining and yelling is supposed to be productive at this point.

Pitons
11-27-2006, 01:09 PM
Now, I think everyone knows that when a player is fouled on a shot attempt, that shot only counts as an attempt if the ball goes in. In other words they don't "penalize" player with a missed attempt on a shot during which he was fouled.

Could it be that JO is actually taking as many, if not more, shots as before but because of where he is shooting from, he is getting fouled more often and not being assessed a missed attempt on those shots?

I just thought it was interesting that your posted stats included everything (reb's, assists, blocks) but free throws.

So it's bad to be getting fouled?

If JO provokes many fouls and his FT % is good, it's a very good thing imo not only for him, but for the team also.

able
11-27-2006, 02:18 PM
I let the FT attempts out, and don't know why, but in all honesty, from not taking any to taking close to 10, I take it.

And yes, JO's comments post Tor made me think, though I read them after I worked this one out :D so I decided to post anyway.

Thoughts I have by the post game comments are somewhat unstable as to how to explain, what does he really say.

It almost reads as if the Star has taken it upon themselves to highlight anything that can be construed as "untowardly" by JO, while ignoring the facts, like they used to ignore te truth (or so some posters say).

I have not seen or heard the rest of the comments he made, but I would be interested in hearing the question and the total remarks, not just the "highlights".

On top of which, he seems to be right, as none of the "changes" have made a difference, we played Daniels as a starter for 2 games, and then he got a DNP, no Rawle got two starts, only to play 6 minutes of a game, if that is the gameplan, then why bother, no way any unit is going to gel or any player getting his confidence or the feeling that the staff has confidence in him (the players starting).

As the team leader and so on and so on, you know what, he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't say something.

It is ok for Rick to do it, but not for JO?

As I said, no crystalized thoughts on that one, can argue any side on it.


But in the end I look at the hardest working players and must admit that JO's numbers in general are an improvement all accross the board, and his defense is stellar, if you work that hard, you are entitled to an opinion.

Bball
11-28-2006, 12:37 PM
As the team leader and so on and so on, you know what, he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't say something.


This is what is expected of JO to be leader IMHO...

Regardless of the score or time in the game he fights for position and blocks out so his team can get a rebound even if he isn't the one who gets it

Regardless of the score or time in the game he dives to the floor after a loose ball as if it's a 1 point game and the possession is the difference in winning or losing

During the game he does what the coach has asked of him regardless of what it means for his own stats.

After a loss he encourages and tries to motivate his teammates to keep doing what is in the gameplan... not get in a pi$$ing match with the coach and undermine team unity and the coach's authority 8 games into the season.

He also shouldn't paint the team and others into a corner and create question marks with his comments to the press.

He should never whine to the press.

He should never utter the words: "I'm the leader of this team". If he is, then it will show and we'll all know it.

------

Right now he's a whiney, egotistical, coach-killing, malcontent who needs to take his 'me first' attitude to another team (and take the overrated and inconsistent Tinsley with him).

-Bball

Will Galen
11-28-2006, 03:00 PM
It almost reads as if the Star has taken it upon themselves to highlight anything that can be construed as "untowardly" by JO, while ignoring the facts, like they used to ignore the truth (or so some posters say).

I've noticed this, but not just with JO. It looks to me like the Star has gone from reporting on the games to reporting on what goes on off court.

Hearing everything causes people to dislike the team or players. For instant Peck being mad at Jermaine because of what he read in the newspaper. Would Peck be happier not knowing that?

People are never going to like this team with Kavitz and Wells looking to report dirt rather than what goes on between the lines.

Personally I prefer to read about the games and not player and team problems that happen off the court. Everyone has problems, but dragging them though newspapers for everyone to read isn't journalism, it's just plain sensationalism.

NuffSaid
11-28-2006, 06:22 PM
First off, good post and rebuttle, able!

I was going to bring up this very subject on the IndyStar board, but now that I've found this I think I'll just link it to this thread while adding my 2-cents worth.

For what it's worth, I think JO is fully justified in wanting to change things up as far as how they approach the game, as well as insisting on a set-rotation. It's always a good idea to play to your player's strengths. And on the issue of rotations, the revolting door of lineups does more to confuse and frustration your players than it does to motivate them.

I, too, had noticed that since the Boston game Al's scoring has decreased. Maybe the reason for this is part "change in the approach to the game" as far as how these two players are utilized. But it could also be other issues as well, i.e., player deferment (one settling in on one facet of the game while letting the other do other things to help move the game along), ego ("I gotta have my touches so I'll just pout until my number is called more often), or the right-hand not speaking to the left...both players (JO and Al) not fully understanding the expectation and/or roles of the other.

I think that this latest lineup change will help to clarify their roles and quite possibly solidify the rotation. In fact, the lineup as listed for tonight's game (11/28/06 against the Blazers) is exactly what I'd hoped RC would go with since the season began. After all, they are the team's best players.

'Nuff said.

able
11-28-2006, 06:40 PM
This is what is expected of JO to be leader IMHO...

Regardless of the score or time in the game he fights for position and blocks out so his team can get a rebound even if he isn't the one who gets it

Regardless of the score or time in the game he dives to the floor after a loose ball as if it's a 1 point game and the possession is the difference in winning or losing

During the game he does what the coach has asked of him regardless of what it means for his own stats.

After a loss he encourages and tries to motivate his teammates to keep doing what is in the gameplan... not get in a pi$$ing match with the coach and undermine team unity and the coach's authority 8 games into the season.

He also shouldn't paint the team and others into a corner and create question marks with his comments to the press.

He should never whine to the press.

He should never utter the words: "I'm the leader of this team". If he is, then it will show and we'll all know it.

------

Right now he's a whiney, egotistical, coach-killing, malcontent who needs to take his 'me first' attitude to another team (and take the overrated and inconsistent Tinsley with him).

-Bball

And you argument is based on what ?


If TPTB followed your opinion, you would be calling for their heads, because we would be a lottery certainty.

Stop spitting in the coffee, start enjoying life, or find decent arguments to carry your case.
Your rants grow old

Bball
11-28-2006, 06:51 PM
And you argument is based on what ?

The product on the floor.

And when JO is out the team has historically played better basketball. The movement was better. The chemistry was better. The talent looked better. And it looked better to start the season this year WITH him... until he decided the world needed to revolve around him.

Dispute that all you want with whatever stats you want to spin but we've all seen it with our own two eyes. It's time to address that 800lb gorilla in the middle of the living room.



If TPTB followed your opinion, you would be calling for their heads, because we would be a lottery certainty.


And if they follow your's we'll be... what exactly?



Stop spitting in the coffee, start enjoying life, or find decent arguments to carry your case.
Your rants grow old

Is there an "I Don't Care" smiley?

-Bball

Will Galen
11-28-2006, 07:57 PM
Be nice guys! Please!

We don't need two pillars of the digest community getting into it with each other.