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View Full Version : Starting at the 2....



rimock31
11-25-2006, 11:52 AM
Ok, so it seems this has been the biggest problem for the Pacers this year as we've had the nice surprise of solid point guard play.
With the addition of Harrington as a go-to scorer in the starting lineup, i really think Jackson's post-up skills which are much more reliable than his jump shot would be better served in the 2nd unit, and plus, he doesn't seem to mind coming off the bench.
I honestly haven't seen enough of Quis to comment about him, but his inability to hit the open 3 bothers me if he's going to be a starting shooting guard on this team that alreayd doesn't shoot well.
Rawle is simply too inexperienced and needs to polish up his offensive game a bit although i must say, the defensive effort is tremendous.

Lately, i've really been thinking that RC should try using Sarunas as a starter/combo guard with Tinsley. They've played very well together this season thus far and I think Sarunas will hit the open shots created by JO and Harrington post-ups while also providing some much needed ball handling.
More importantly, this will allow him to get into the game early on and start getting his rhythm which seems to take more than the 5 minutes of play he is sometimes alloted.
As for the rotation, I think Sarunas should be the first one off the court, maybe halfway through the first quarter, so that he can come back on early in the 2nd and get to play a little with the second unit. This sort of rotation would be most beneficial to him, and the team.

Your thoughts?

JayRedd
11-25-2006, 12:12 PM
Sarunas has played well in a few, brief spurts this year. He in no way has shown that he has earned a starting spot by any means. You can't bench two more veteran, higher paid, and flat-out better players to start some guy because it seems to take him a while to get into the flow of the offense. He's a bench player and this is the NBA...you better be ready when the coach tells you to get in the game.

To me, Jack is clearly the starter. And the fact that JO and Al are doing most of the scoring is only a benefit, as I see it. It allows Jack to not force shots or press offensively, and generally use his other abilities....ones that I really wasn't even sure he had.

He's also been our best defender so far.

pwee31
11-25-2006, 12:37 PM
Though the team is undefeated when he has scored in double figures. Which has been only like 4 or 5 games, but he has had back spasms, and hasnt gotten minutes at times soooo. make what you want of it, fact is, he plays well, the team seems to do well.

ajbry
11-25-2006, 12:47 PM
Sarunas has played well in a few, brief spurts this year. He in no way has shown that he has earned a starting spot by any means. You can't bench two more veteran, higher paid, and flat-out better players to start some guy because it seems to take him a while to get into the flow of the offense. He's a bench player and this is the NBA...you better be ready when the coach tells you to get in the game.

To me, Jack is clearly the starter. And the fact that JO and Al are doing most of the scoring is only a benefit, as I see it. It allows Jack to not force shots or press offensively, and generally use his other abilities....ones that I really wasn't even sure he had.

He's also been our best defender so far.

Agreed. Once he gets his shooting touch, there's essentially no debate.

BlueNGold
11-25-2006, 12:56 PM
Though the team is undefeated when he has scored in double figures. Which has been only like 4 or 5 games, but he has had back spasms, and hasnt gotten minutes at times soooo. make what you want of it, fact is, he plays well, the team seems to do well.

We are starting to use Sarunas differently. Some of his Euro fans mentioned this strategy. This seems to occur in two ways. First, he is brought out against players like Damon Jones who are not particularly athletic. Second, he might guard an athletic player, but we clearly cover for him. For example, recall that he was guarding Lebron for awhile...:rotflmao:

The idea is to double team Lebron, who needs doubled anyway, and use Sarunas as the first layer...with JO playing goal tender. It seems to work as well as anything else against Lebron and might be a way to benefit from Sarunas' productivity on offense.

spreedom
11-25-2006, 01:50 PM
Jack has been our best defender? How has Jermaine been excluded from that conversation?

Trader Joe
11-25-2006, 01:56 PM
I think the two is gonna be done by committee. As far as who will be the "starter" I don't think it really matters as Jack will probably get the most minutes regardless. I think a lot of our two guard rotation this year will be determined by the type of two guards we play. For example, last night the Cavs are a team that play two small guards the whole time so we encountered with RUni and he responded.

In short, I'd like to see us play to the matchup at the two guard spot. We are already good enough at the other positions to just try and get decent production from the two.

speakout4
11-25-2006, 02:12 PM
Agreed. Once he gets his shooting touch, there's essentially no debate.

He is the most reliable perimeter shooter we have presently.

pizza guy
11-25-2006, 02:45 PM
Sarunas has played well when paired with a PG, and last night's game was a good example of that. I wouldn't be against him getting the start myself. Jack by all accounts has played pretty well this season, even considering his hideous shooting %, but IMO Jack should play at SF more than SG (at least offensively, defense is a match-up game), and coming off the bench has worked very well.

I haven't made it to the thread concerning this yet, but why did 'Quis not play last night?

I'd be absolutely fine with Sarunas starting, but as rimrock said, he should also be first off the court so he can play with the subs, because there's a great energy there.

Hicks
11-25-2006, 02:53 PM
He is the most reliable perimeter shooter we have presently.

:puke:

D-BONE
11-25-2006, 04:38 PM
Hmm...I don't know about the starter. What I do think is that we need to get our best guys on the court. I would honestly not mind Rawle starting if our second unit consisted of Quis, Jack, Foster, Armstrong, and Sarunas. If matchups necessitated, swap in a big guy-Powell, Baston, DH (will we ever hear of him again?). Otherwise, let them match down to us. Try to push the pace, move the ball, etc.

I know this has been stated now for several years, but you have to think our 2nd unit (whoever might constitute it) is an area we can exploit against a lot of teams, at least in the East. Call "depth" on me if you want, but it would appear this is true. Besides, we know the main guys will get their minutes anway whether it be off the bench or not.

BlueNGold
11-25-2006, 04:41 PM
He is the most reliable perimeter shooter we have presently.

Most reliable? I guess it depends on who you consider possible SG options. If you only include Quis, I would agree. However, I think we have other options.

While Jack is at 21.4% from 3, Saras is at 37.5% and as bad as DG's shooting is being perceived, he is hitting the 3 at 39.6% clip. That is much better than Jack has EVER shot it. Just because Jack launches it a lot of times, does NOT mean he is good at it.

...and if you don't think DG can play SG, you have to admit he can do it on offense. In that case, find someone else, Jack or otherwise, to defend the SG on the other end...and play a slashing roll on offense. Both Quis and Marshall are excellent options there as well.

DG4mvp
11-25-2006, 04:51 PM
I know this has been stated now for several years, but you have to think our 2nd unit (whoever might constitute it) is an area we can exploit against a lot of teams, at least in the East. Call "depth" on me if you want, but it would appear this is true. Besides, we know the main guys will get their minutes anway whether it be off the bench or not.
Agreed 100%. The starters are on notice that they habe been a liability at the start. I think pride will kick in and they will get it together soon. Our depth is great so we should not tinker too much with the rotation. I still think Quis is our best option at the 2 but Jack's D has been impeccable. if we could have a hybrid of Jack's D and sarunas' O ... :)

Quis
11-25-2006, 07:42 PM
He is the most reliable perimeter shooter we have presently.

Granger, Al, Saras, and D.A. are all 4 far better shooters than Stephen Jackson.

As for our starting 2-guard, I'll go with Quis. ;)

speakout4
11-26-2006, 12:57 AM
Most reliable? I guess it depends on who you consider possible SG options. If you only include Quis, I would agree. However, I think we have other options.

While Jack is at 21.4% from 3, Saras is at 37.5% and as bad as DG's shooting is being perceived, he is hitting the 3 at 39.6% clip. That is much better than Jack has EVER shot it. Just because Jack launches it a lot of times, does NOT mean he is good at it.

...and if you don't think DG can play SG, you have to admit he can do it on offense. In that case, find someone else, Jack or otherwise, to defend the SG on the other end...and play a slashing roll on offense. Both Quis and Marshall are excellent options there as well.

Sorry I meant to say that sarunas was the most relaible perimeter shooter presently not Jax. The individual whose thread I was addressing mentioned both Sarunas and Jax.

pizza guy
11-26-2006, 09:48 AM
Granger, Al, Saras, and D.A. are all 4 far better shooters than Stephen Jackson.

As for our starting 2-guard, I'll go with Quis. ;)

Whoa, didn't see that coming. ;)

Jon Theodore
11-26-2006, 10:33 AM
I think Saras starting would be the way to go. We can just play a zone with him and Tinsley in there or find other ways to cover for them. Sarunas would really thrive in the starting role because confidence is critical to his success.

It also seems to take him a while to get into a rhythm and when he does, wow he is good.

Also our bench would be pretty ridiculous with DA/Sjack/Quis/Rawle/Foster off the bench. Just take Harrington and Sarunas out early in the first for Jack/Foster.

And then when you bring back Runi bring in DA with him. Quis/Rawle don't deserve very many minutes if you ask me. Neither of them have really earned it, quis has had what...one good game?

I know Quis has yet to play a really bad game, but he hasn't played great. I'd almost like to see us actually keep starting Marquis and see if he can up some trade value and ship him out. We have Rawle Marshall who is basically the same player as Marquis.

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2006, 10:56 AM
Sarunas has played well in a few, brief spurts this year. He in no way has shown that he has earned a starting spot by any means. You can't bench two more veteran, higher paid, and flat-out better players to start some guy because it seems to take him a while to get into the flow of the offense. He's a bench player and this is the NBA...you better be ready when the coach tells you to get in the game.

To me, Jack is clearly the starter. And the fact that JO and Al are doing most of the scoring is only a benefit, as I see it. It allows Jack to not force shots or press offensively, and generally use his other abilities....ones that I really wasn't even sure he had.

He's also been our best defender so far.
I agree completely. The way Jack is shooting you want him in as much of a non-scoring, role player situation as possible, and on the court with Al, JO and Tinsley helps emphasize that.

First off the bench is either a defensive specialist (which while Jack is playing better defense he still isn't a "stopper") or a scoring punch (have you seen the FG%? no thanks).


Right now the team doesn't have a great SG option. Sarunas has looked best in the dual PG role, and after the first few games it seems like Rick has even implemented that with Armstrong on the court - early on Saras was running SG routes with DA at PG, but not with Tins at PG.

It should be noted that it's not been as simple as the starters get a slow start and then the bench fixes things. Typically the bench comes on and continues the trend of losing too. They go from 10 down to 17 down, stuff like that. They don't figure things out till MAYBE last in the 2nd, and more likely somewhere in the 3rd. Most of the comebacks have featured playing time from everyone, just like most of the slow starts have too.

And this has happened whether Jack started or came off the bench. The problem is bigger than a player or two (the slow start problem); it's a team issue.


Jack has been our best defender? How has Jermaine been excluded from that conversation?
Well I certainly agree, but I think JayRedd was speaking in terms of SF to PG, not bigs. Guys who could play SG.

The reason I'm down on Granger's shot is because he was a 32% guy over the long haul last year, and when you look at his numbers this year they are way up from a couple of hot nights. His "typical" night, meaning the most likely to happen, has been more like 2-7 from 3.


edit - n'mind, shooting comment altered

Pitons
11-26-2006, 11:00 AM
It should be noted that it's not been as simple as the starters get a slow start and then the bench fixes things. Typically the bench comes on and continues the trend of losing too. They go from 10 down to 17 down, stuff like that. They don't figure things out till MAYBE last in the 2nd, and more likely somewhere in the 3rd.

And this has happened whether Jack started or came off the bench. The problem is bigger than a player or two (the slow start problem); it's a team issue.

Yes, I think so too.