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rimock31
11-24-2006, 11:56 PM
Very impressive win tonight, JO was consistent and very dominant. I think its starting to look as though shooting guard will be this team's biggest question mark as opposed to the point guard position. Sarunas once again showed how clutch he is and how effective he can be in running the team when actually given the chance. More importantly, his performance showed that the +/- stat is not useless as people like Seth imply, since Sarunas/Foster/DA will probably be at the top, and rightfully so.

TheDon
11-25-2006, 12:12 AM
heh, ask and you shall recieve.

Sarunas is amazing off of pick and rolls that's how we need to use him to get him started once he hits those little runners he can step from behind the line and nail people to the wall. He's also doing really well with Tinsley and his passes are as usual phenomonal lets hope he can build on this, he always seems to have a let down right after games like this or we just flat out don't use him the same way.

The way Lebron James was getting foul calls tonight I thought maybe another certain #23 had come out of retirement. That was ridiculous most ticky tack foul calls i've seen all year for someone who is so "tough and strong" they sure do like to keep the NBA poster boy safe.

Jackson didn't have a good shooting night and none of us are surprised, but Jack was giving Lebron fits when he was guarding him, you could see it in Lebrons expressions that he was getting ticked. If jack doesn't have a good shooting night I expect him at least to contribute to some turnovers and get down there and try and rebound and I think he did an above average job with that.

Danny showed his intelligence when his 3-pointer wasn't falling he started driving to the basket and picking up fouls he as well did a good job guarding lebron but picked up quite a few touch fouls (see above description of lebron).

Tinsley if I remember right didn't miss that many at the foul line and did an excellent job of getting the ball to people most notably JO there were a few times he'd split the defenders on a bounce pass right to JO on the run and get the basket or get their interior guys in foul trouble.

JO was JO his rebounding percentage has gone down quite a bit and i'm not toooo concerned about that, as long as he's making an effort to get them. JO dominated big Z I mean it was so bad I'd imagine Z is gonna have nightmares about having to guard Jermaine again, I think Jermaine is getting more and more comfortable with the loss of weight and that's bad news for the rest of the league. The best part is, is even though he has lost the weight he still is a big presence in the paint and people know he's going to be there if they're going to drive jermaine is going to be in their face and that thought alone will alter quite a few shots this year. Great game for Jermaine

Darrel Armstong was fantastic energy off the bench that coast to coast move was hilarious, how many guys did he beat on that play that were at least 6-10 years younger than him? That is being lazy, there's no sense in that whatsoever. Not quite on par with his normal percentage from 3 point land but he did knock one or two down I believe.

Al I'm not quite sure how many points or rebounds he got in this game but it did look like his putbacks and layups were at least falling for him. I'll take that for now...baby steps until he is able to find his groove again and step out behind the arc for the 3 pointers.

I noticed the crowd didn't leave this game early like they did the last time. I'm glad our fan base is starting to show some faith when we're down in the game that we have every opportunity to come back, and if the other team doesn't play a full game of basketball they're going to pay for it.

Great game for the pacers and we realllllly needed this one before we make this trip out west. I'm really interested to see the game against the warriors Monta Ellis and Pietrus and Biedrens are doing great thus far in the year and Baron Davis has been revitalized much like Tinsley is and actually in good shape this year thus far.

DG4mvp
11-25-2006, 12:12 AM
Great win for the P's. I am happy for the players mentioned above but let's not forget how instrumental JT was.
Sarunas showed he can be a potent floor leader and contributor but let's see it happen more often before we any oil annoitment.

Unclebuck
11-25-2006, 12:42 AM
Just got back from the game, wow was that first half terrible it nearly put me to sleep.

I don't have the time or patience to give a full report, so let me just make a few observations.

Why, oh why do the Pacers start almost every home game so slow - I don't have the answer, but they start the game soft and not aggressive at all. It has gotten to the point where I expect a bad first half.

So has Marquis played himself into a position where he isn't going to get any time - I don't understand or like that. I will give him some credit as he was a good teammate tonight on the bench, he didn't sulk or cause any problems. I would like to know why Rick doesn't see the value in playing Daniels.

OK, let me get to the meat of what I want to say.

I'm going to repeat something I posted often during the 61 win season. Yes Harrington is a better player than Foster - there is no question about that. However, I think the Pacers are a better team with Foster on the floor with JO, and Granger along the frontline. [b]. I think it is so obvious.

Peck, I know you hate the JO and Jeff combo - but I would think that 95% of the reasons why you don't like JO and Jeff combo would apply more so for Al and JO combo.

That point leads into my next point the two key players for the Pacers tonight were Jeff and Saras with DA a possible 3rd key player (yes I know DA shot horribly) but I just hope we never ever forgot how important energy players are - and how important players who play with all out effort at all times - DA and Jeff does that.

I was impressed with Saras timely shot making. But what was key is that he didn't just stand at the 3 point, he was actually running off picks, getting the ball and hitting shots - but not 3 pointers, but rather 15 footers.

That flagrant foul on Jeff was a joke. Seemed to me they never would have called it if James hadn't reacted, like he did.



When you are watching the game on TV, you cannot fully understand how Jeff and DA change the game. It has nothing to do with stats, but those two energize the whole team - as Rick just said they just compete.

OK that is enough for now

speakout4
11-25-2006, 12:47 AM
Just got back from the game, wow was that first half terrible it nearly put me to sleep.

I don't have the time or patience to give a full report, so let me just make a few observations.

Why, oh why do the Pacers start almost every home game so slow - I don't have the answer, but they start the game soft and not aggressive at all. It has gotten to the point where I expect a bad first half.

So has Marquis played himself into a position where he isn't going to get any time - I don't understand or like that. I will give him some credit as he was a good teammate tonight on the bench, he didn't sulk or cause any problems. I would like to know why Rick doesn't see the value in playing Daniels.

OK, let me get to the meat of what I want to say.

I'm going to repeat something I posted often during the 61 win season. Yes Harrington is a better player than Foster - there is no question about that. However, I think the Pacers are a better team with Foster on the floor with JO, and Granger along the frontline. Al must come off the bench . I think it is so obvious.

Peck, I know you hate the JO and Jeff combo - but I would think that 95% of the reasons why you don't like JO and Jeff combo would apply more so for Al and JO combo.

That point leads into my next point the two key players for the Pacers tonight were Jeff and Saras with DA a possible 3rd key player (yes I know DA shot horribly) but I just hope we never ever forgot how important energy players are - and how important players who play with all out effort at all times - DA and Jeff does that.

I was impressed with Saras timely shot making. But what was key is that he didn't just stand at the 3 point, he was actually running off picks, getting the ball and hitting shots - but not 3 pointers, but rather 15 footers.

That flagrant foul on Jeff was a joke. Seemed to me they never would have called it if James hadn't reacted, like he did.

Couple of late points -

When you are watching the game on TV, you cannot fully understand how Jeff and DA change the game. It has nothing to do with stats, but those two energize the whole team - as Rick just said they just compete.

OK that is enough for now

I agree with you except that granger should come off the bench as his starts are even slower than Al's.

Unclebuck
11-25-2006, 12:53 AM
I agree with you except that granger should come off the bench as his starts are even slower than Al's.

Do you want Al guarding the other teams best offensive players - I sure don't. Granger did a great job on James tonight. We need our best defender on the floor to start the game. I'd either bring Al off the bench, or take him out after 3 minutes or so

Isaac
11-25-2006, 12:57 AM
First and foremost, Jamaal was outstanding tonight. I can count the number of mistakes he made on one hand. He ran the offense well and shot the ball well, but more importantly, he played good defense and hit 2 HUGE buckets to seal the win. This game was all Jamaal, and he deserves a lot of praise for the way he's played lately.

Other then just Jamaal, we won this game because of outstanding point guard play and defensive energy. The obvious difference was the turnovers and points off of them. I can't remember the exact stats, and I'm not going to look them up, but I believe the Cavs commited 19 turnovers and we turned them in to 24 points. We really forced them in to tough spots the whole second half, and they never had a chance once we got the lead.

I'm really confused why Daniels didn't play. I was confused when Rawle started, and more confused when Daniels didn't get in the game at all. That doesn't make any sense to me. I'm glad to get the win, but I'm hoping Rick hasn't decided that he values Rawle over Marquis, because as much as I like Rawle and think he'll be a good player in the future, Marquis brings an aspect to this team that we really need. We could have used him early in this game.

Jeff was outstanding tonight too. He was incredbly active on the offensive glass and defensively he was very good too. Varajeao is a good high energy guy like Jeff, but Jeff has proven himself over and over again to be able to consistently top players who play like him and feed off of their energy and make more positives for his team. He did the same thing against Gadzuric, who is another similar player. By the way, did anyone notice during a dead ball situation Jeff hoisted up a 22 footer and drained it. That was funny to see.

Praise for Stephen Jackson as well, he had a terrible first half, but defensively he was great all game. Danny did a fantastic job on LeBron as well. In fact we really did a GREAT job guarding LeBron. He got a lot of really pathetic touch fouls which was the reason he went to the line so much. As far as him going to the line though, Quinn Buckner kept saying that you can't let LeBron get to the line so much, but I have to disagree with him there. I'd rather foul LeBron and force him to make two then give him the lane and let him get his confidence soring with a big dunk or 3 point play. Knock him on his *** and play him physical, that's how you beat players like that, and we did that today.

Go Ps, let's carry this momentum in to Toronto and get a win streak going.

Trader Joe
11-25-2006, 12:59 AM
WOW, what a great win!!!!! We showed guts again and I couldn't be happier with the effort the team is showing.

Lets start with our two best players, JO and TINS. Both were great JO didn't get a ton of boards but he drew contact and was just absolutely dominant at times in the second half on offense. Tins was fantastic all around tonight. The guy is soooo good when healthy I can't even explain it. Plus he is extremely confident late in games. His three when the Cavs dropped into a zone was the biggest play of the game IMO.

Runi really played well tonight. He torched D. Jones, who is the biggest I talk a lot but can't back it up player in the league. Runi and JO were great together and really played off one another.

Al was bad tonight. He settled for Js and was horribly defensively, but he did pull down boards. So whatever...

Foster played great in the first half. Without him we would have been down by 20+. On top of that he crashed the boards in the second half.

Jack and Granger were bad offensively, but they got in Lebron's jock and made him work for his buckets. I was really happy with their defensive performance.

DA's energy as usual was great.

I am really pumped about the energy this team shows and about our starting PG, Jamaal TInsley. The man can absolutely play basketball. When he is playing well we are so difficult to beat.

BTW I am waiting for Nike to introduce Whiny Lebron to their commercials.

Oops, I better watch out I wouldn't want to be whistled for a foul. ;)

GO PACERS!!! Lets hit this road trip HARD.

Wu-Gambino
11-25-2006, 01:02 AM
I attended tonights game, and I'll throw some pics up in the next couple of days.

Great play by Tinsley, Sarunas, and O'Neal. I'm still worried about rebounding, it seems almost any power forward in the league can put up a double double against us.

I mainly went to this game to see LeBron (this is my 2nd Pacers game of the year BTW), but wow, I was a little disappointed. The only guy in the league that gets more calls than LeBron is Wade (maybe Kobe). Also, while watching this game, I ended up sitting by two Cleveland "fans" (one of the guys didn't know that the NBA bonus starts at five fouls). Anyways, he mentions that the Pacers have one of the worst point guard rotations in the league with Tinsley (injured) and Armstrong (ancient). Of course, I throughly owned them by pointing out how bad Cleveland's rotation of Jones (highly one-dimensional) and Snow (one of the most washed up players in the league) is. This got me thinking, just how good is Cleveland? It seems they were picked by most of the experts to win the Central and go far in the playoffs (I think I might have picked them, I can't remember). Yes, they have a good record. However, if you look at it in dept, they've only beat one team with a winning record (granted it was San Antonio).

I know about the LeBron factor, but do you think this team can go deep in the playoffs when Snow and Jones get around 25 minutes apiece? There bench is mediocre at best. Hughes' health is always a question, and I don't see guys like Gooden and Z giving LeBron what he needs for a supporting cast. Does anyone know how much it would've cost the Cavs to sign Redd instead of Hughes?

Anyways, great win tonight. Hopefully we can play well on this brutal west coast trip.

Jon Theodore
11-25-2006, 01:05 AM
What a great game, even though the first half was horrible. I was home for thanksgiving and got to go to this one. I was about 8 rows from the floor smack dab in the middle, it was awesome. Got a great deal from a scalper.

Anyhow, Sarunas won this game for us and Jacksons/Grangers defense on Lebron was great even though he scored about 30 points. Granger is TOO GOOD of a defender. He has way to quick of hands and he got nailed with at least two bs calls.

Whats the deal with Rawle Marshall starting, that is kind of a joke to me. Start sarunas for crying out loud. I mean Saras/Da/Jack/Quis are all better players than Rawle I just didn't understand that one bit.

I know for a FACT that Sarunas would play better as a starter, his game is so dependent upon his confidence that it's insane not to do everything possible to make him confident. Tonight he was confident and it showed. Early on he wouldn't shoot and my dad said something about it. He was very timid to begin with, then he took his first shot and missed it and i saw him kind of look to the bench expecting to be pulled. Carlisle let him play through it and wow what a difference that made. Both of his three pointers were EXTREMELY timely.

Foster should also be starting with Granger probably coming off the bench. Al needs to be a starter because he is that caliber of a player, Granger would be great coming off the bench and i'd like to see that.

Rawle didn't do anything and I just wonder why the hell he started, quis or runi should clearly start at shooting guard. Tinsley for the most part played a good game and I was impressed with him defensively on a few possesions, but i HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE when he runs down the court and just shoots it without passing. I NEVER want to see a point guard do that.

Jermaine played a great game and he is kind of winning me over lately. He made big z a NON FACTOR completely. Pollard wore a nice suit tonight also.

I am guessing we can expect to see Harrison wearing a suit all season, what a worthless player he is.....what a shame.

Seeing Rawle Marshall start and based on the few other games i've seen I have realized that Rawle and Marquis are basically the same player. Maybe we could package one of them along with tinsley for a shooting guard who can actually shoot.

I REALLY like Sjack off the bench, lets keep it that way.

All in all a great win and Sarunas/DA combo just makes me want to hug total strangers.
DA= GOD. He does so much for this team as a "chemistry" guy. go to a game and you will see what I mean.

Oh yeah who was that guy for the cavalier who laid down a sick dunk and knocked down a three? That guy looked like a baller.

Trader Joe
11-25-2006, 01:06 AM
I attended tonights game, and I'll throw some pics up in the next couple of days.

Great play by Tinsley, Sarunas, and O'Neal. I'm still worried about rebounding, it seems almost any power forward in the league can put up a double double against us.

I mainly went to this game to see LeBron (this is my 2nd Pacers game of the year BTW), but wow, I was a little disappointed. The only guy in the league that gets more calls than LeBron is Wade (maybe Kobe). Also, while watching this game, I ended up sitting by two Cleveland "fans" (one of the guys didn't know that the NBA bonus starts at five fouls). Anyways, he mentions that the Pacers have one of the worst point guard rotations in the league with Tinsley (injured) and Armstrong (ancient). Of course, I throughly owned them by pointing out how bad Cleveland's rotation of Jones (highly one-dimensional) and Snow (one of the most washed up players in the league) is. This got me thinking, just how good is Cleveland? It seems they were picked by most of the experts to win the Central and go far in the playoffs (I think I might have picked them, I can't remember). Yes, they have a good record. However, if you look at it in dept, they've only beat one team with a winning record (granted it was San Antonio).

I know about the LeBron factor, but do you think this team can go deep in the playoffs when Snow and Jones get around 25 minutes apiece? There bench is mediocre at best. Hughes' health is always a question, and I don't see guys like Gooden and Z giving LeBron what he needs for a supporting cast. Does anyone know how much it would've cost the Cavs to sign Redd instead of Hughes?

Anyways, great win tonight. Hopefully we can play well on this brutal west coast trip.

Lets face it they might as well change their name to the Lebrons. If he ever got hurt they might be the worst team in the history of the NBA.

Isaac
11-25-2006, 01:10 AM
I don't think Al was bad tonight, and I don't think he settled for jumpshots too often either. I don't think he had a great game, not even a good one, but he didn't hurt the team. I think he only took somewhere in the range of 7-10 shots, but I haven't looked at the boxscore so I could be wrong about that.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the two biggest weaknesses of this team, rebounding and turnovers, were both very strong tonight. That says something about this team.

Just
11-25-2006, 01:21 AM
The Cavs are indeed HORRIBLE without LeBron. Everyone hyped all those moves made a few offseasons ago, but IMO they were stupid then and still are. Z is practically worthless in today's NBA. Picking up D.Marshall and possibly D.Jones were the only moves I liked, because surrounding James with shooters is never a bad idea, and I'm kinda a Marshall fan. However, Jones gets wayyy too much playing time.

Great second half from the Pacers today! Tins and JO looked awesome out there. Jack played good D, I guess. He picked up a stupid T, though, and got some pretty heavy boos. I didn't boo but was audibly frustrated. Where was Quisy?

joeyd
11-25-2006, 01:37 AM
Just got back from the game myself. Sat next to a bunch of fair weather fans in a part of Sec. 11 that I usually never frequent.

Foster and Armstrong stand out as the most heralded of the unheralded tonight. I love the way these guys do their thing. As so much has already been said about the positives and negatives, I just have a couple of comments:

1) I wonder what the game would have been like had Granger been on Lebron from the tipoff. I believe that this guy will eventually be regarded as our shut-down defender.

2) Anybody else starting to note a different trend compared to last year? Last year we would build a lead and let people come back and beat us. This year, although admittedly it's early in the season, we are the ones that seem to be coming back from big deficits and are actually finishing these games fairly well.

3) I'm scratching my head as to how we can beat Cleveland, which is likely to win it's division this year, but lose to other teams that aren't nearly as talented, like Boston (and perhaps even Washington and Chicago which haven't been playing well so far).

Evan_The_Dude
11-25-2006, 01:38 AM
Who would have thought Jamaal Tinsley would become this teams second scorer..???

DG4mvp
11-25-2006, 01:39 AM
I know for a FACT that Sarunas would play better as a starter, his game is so dependent upon his confidence that it's insane not to do everything possible to make him confident. Tonight he was confident and it showed. Early on he wouldn't shoot and my dad said something about it. He was very timid to begin with, then he took his first shot and missed it and i saw him kind of look to the bench expecting to be pulled. Carlisle let him play through it and wow what a difference that made. Both of his three pointers were EXTREMELY timely.

Foster should also be starting with Granger probably coming off the bench. Al needs to be a starter because he is that caliber of a player, Granger would be great coming off the bench and i'd like to see that.

Rawle didn't do anything and I just wonder why the hell he started, quis or runi should clearly start at shooting guard. Tinsley for the most part played a good game and I was impressed with him defensively on a few possesions, but i HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE when he runs down the court and just shoots it without passing. I NEVER want to see a point guard do that.

Jermaine played a great game and he is kind of winning me over lately. He made big z a NON FACTOR completely. Pollard wore a nice suit tonight also.



Oh yeah who was that guy for the cavalier who laid down a sick dunk and knocked down a three? That guy looked like a baller.

I also love the DA /Sarunas interaction. Ball movement is crisper, however one needs to keep in mind that the P's were able to hide Sarunas defensively because the Cavaliers' PG are worthless. That really helped him to stay focused on his offensive production.

Trader Joe
11-25-2006, 02:13 AM
Just got back from the game myself. Sat next to a bunch of fair weather fans in a part of Sec. 11 that I usually never frequent.

Foster and Armstrong stand out as the most heralded of the unheralded tonight. I love the way these guys do their thing. As so much has already been said about the positives and negatives, I just have a couple of comments:

1) I wonder what the game would have been like had Granger been on Lebron from the tipoff. I believe that this guy will eventually be regarded as our shut-down defender.

2) Anybody else starting to note a different trend compared to last year? Last year we would build a lead and let people come back and beat us. This year, although admittedly it's early in the season, we are the ones that seem to be coming back from big deficits and are actually finishing these games fairly well.

3) I'm scratching my head as to how we can beat Cleveland, which is likely to win it's division this year, but lose to other teams that aren't nearly as talented, like Boston (and perhaps even Washington and Chicago which haven't been playing well so far).

The main reason for number 3 is all the new faces. The talent is there. This team can win this division. In fact we are now 3-1 against the division could be 4-0 if we had gotten a dang rebound against Chicago.

As far as Tins being our second option, I would have bought it with the pre-requisite being that he is healthy. Hell we are no 13 games in without an injury to Tins. That's fantastic!

Big Smooth
11-25-2006, 02:29 AM
The main reason for number 3 is all the new faces. The talent is there. This team can win this division. In fact we are now 3-1 against the division could be 4-0 if we had gotten a dang rebound against Chicago.

As far as Tins being our second option, I would have bought it with the pre-requisite being that he is healthy. Hell we are no 13 games in without an injury to Tins. That's fantastic!

It's pretty simple to me, if Tinsley stays healthy all season then I like the Pacers chances of being pretty decent. When he can stay healthy and play a number of games, Mel the Abuser comes back to life.

Moses
11-25-2006, 02:32 AM
Who would have thought Jamaal Tinsley would become this teams second scorer..???
Tinsley can have almost any shot he wants out there. Tinsley and Marquis are the only guards on this team who can make something out of nothing on some plays and create their own shots.

I stopped watching after the first quarter because I went to the movies..I thought for sure we were going to lose by 20 after seeing how bad we played in the first quarter..but man, after looking at the box score, did we really outscore Cleveland 25-9 in the 3rd quarter? That's crazy. I'm glad this team can finally have offensive spurts and make runs. I remember in years past where this team simply couldn't fight back from a 10 point deficit. It was just out of the question..but this years different, it's already happened 3-4 times this year I think. I still don't think we have the right lineups in. Not sure what combination we should use, but it's clear that our starting 5 isn't working. I think Granger needs to come off the bench and that Quis and Jackson should have a shot at starting the 2 and 3 spot. Would bring some more offensive firepower into our lineup.

Quis
11-25-2006, 03:05 AM
Jermaine O'Neal A
He was close to perfect outside of his lousy rebounding. His offense was on the money, his defense continues to be better than ever, and his passing was great. Still, the 6 rebounds in 42 minutes was embarrassing.

Jamaal Tinsley A
He looked like an All-Star out there, as he has for the past week or two. What a great talent Jamaal is, if he can stay healthy he's easily a top-10 point guard, and brings far more to the table than overrated one-dimensional point guards like Mike Bibby and Jason Terry can.

Danny Granger D-
0-6 from the floor, ouch. His rebounding continues to disappoint (6 boards in 33 minutes) and his defense was only so-so on the night, although that'll happen when you play against a guy like LeBron. :)

Stephen Jackson F
2-10 from the field. But he made up for it with his 3 huge rebounds and 1 assist. :laugh:
I'm not even gonna waste my time discussing Stephen Jackson anymore.....

Jeff Foster A-
Only 24 minutes but a very productive 24 minutes, scoring 8 on 3-4 shooting and grabbing 8 boards. Dwight Howard is great and will only get better, but Jeff Foster is still the NBA's best rebounder.

Rawle Marshall D+
Limited minutes, even more limited production.

Sarunas Jasikevicius A-
A great game by Saras. What a bi-polar player he's become. Great one night, atrocious the next.

Darrell Armstrong C
He brought his usual great hustle and energy, but his shots just weren't falling.

Al Harrington B+
He only played 28 minutes, I'm guessing his back is bothering him more than we've been told. Still, in those 28 minutes he was 5-9 from the floor and pulled down a solid 8 rebounds. Pretty good game for Big Al.

The Hustler
11-25-2006, 08:05 AM
Points of Turnovers
Pacers 24
Cavs 4

Unclebuck
11-25-2006, 08:55 AM
[Danny Granger D-
0-6 from the floor, ouch. His rebounding continues to disappoint (6 boards in 33 minutes) and his defense was only so-so on the night , although that'll happen when you play against a guy like LeBron. :)



On his defense alone I'd give him a B. I thought he did a great job against Lebron

Raskolnikov
11-25-2006, 08:56 AM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/quotes_061124.html


INDIANA 97, CLEVELAND 87
Postgame Notes & Quotes

PACERS COACH RICK CARLISLE <table align="left" width="65"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/rick_carlisle.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table>
“If I’m Toronto, I’d be excited. If you can’t sell tickets knowing you’re going to get a 10-15 point lead in the first half… it’s just something our guys have to resolve. There aren't enough halftime speeches. I’ve never seen anything like this, where we’re lethargic and then fight back and compete. I told them after Milwaukee, they're screwed up, but I love them. They are good kids. They’ve got competitive spirit and they’ve showed it. I wish I could call Steve Jackson and ask if we can play the third quarter first. The thing I like a lot about Sarunas (Jasikevicius), Darrell (Armstrong) and Jeff (Foster) is they just play. They really compete. No matter the situation, they battle. One of the reasons we hung in the way we did tonight, was we only had seven turnovers. We battled back and luckily, we have faithful fans who will hang in there as long as we compete.”
<hr color="#b2b3b5">

PACERS GUARD JAMAAL TINSLEY <table align="left" width="65"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/jamaal_tinsley.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table>
“We played hard. In the second half, we competed very strongly, our shooting game wasn’t the best, but we were able to get the boards, play good defense and find a way to win. I think we are continuing to become a little more familiar with each other on both ends of the floor. This has got to be a positive step.”
<hr color="#b2b3b5">

PACERS GUARD STEPHEN JACKSON <table align="left" width="65"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/stephen_jackson.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table>
“We must find a better way to get off the blocks. We make it hard on ourselves on both ends of the floor, defense and offense. All our players are beginning to contribute and we must continue to be competitive and win games like this." (On his shooting touch) "My shooting touch is still not there. I will continue to work on this until I get it right. I know I have a long way to go but this is a long season.”
<hr color="#b2b3b5">

PACERS GUARD SARUNAS JASIKEVICIUS <table align="left" width="65"><tbody><tr><td>http://www.nba.com/media/playerfile/sarunas_jasikevicius.jpg</td></tr></tbody></table>
“Like always, we seem to make life very difficult for us by falling back early in the game. It either means we’re not ready to play or we just don’t get out of the gate quick. We must stop this, get ourselves together and play on. " (On playing better against Cleveland) "I have no comment about that. I play hard against everybody.”

D-BONE
11-25-2006, 09:45 AM
I also love the DA /Sarunas interaction. Ball movement is crisper, however one needs to keep in mind that the P's were able to hide Sarunas defensively because the Cavaliers' PG are worthless. That really helped him to stay focused on his offensive production.

Two very good points here. We could get away with it against Cleveland's poor G rotation. However, I still hold out hope Saras will continue to develop and at least be able to play some without being such a liability in some areas that he'll be able to play consistently. We got excellent performances from numerous guys but I think he was the evening's MVP.

As we all observed, I could have sworn we were watching the return of slog ball from last year until the bench unit led by DA and Saras got going in the 3rd. Then ball an player movement and pushing it up miraculously appeared. Who esle was in during that period? Seems to me like Foster was a constant and then maybe Jack, Danny, and Al all cycled in for a few stints. JO too maybe towards the end of that unit's run.

Hicks
11-25-2006, 10:19 AM
If I’m Toronto, I’d be excited. If you can’t sell tickets knowing you’re going to get a 10-15 point lead in the first half…

:lmao: :lol2: :laugh:

JBones19
11-25-2006, 10:31 AM
On his defense alone I'd give him a B. I thought he did a great job against Lebron

One of my favorite plays of the game was when Granger basically just stripped Lebron of the ball (almost effortlessly) from the top of the key and it let to a Tinsley lay-up. Did that defensive play remind anyone else of someone?

Eindar
11-25-2006, 10:58 AM
One of my favorite plays of the game was when Granger basically just stripped Lebron of the ball (almost effortlessly) from the top of the key and it let to a Tinsley lay-up. Did that defensive play remind anyone else of someone?

You're probably thinking about Pippen, but my first thought was Ron Artest.

BlueNGold
11-25-2006, 12:03 PM
You're probably thinking about Pippen, but my first thought was Ron Artest.

Either one would be fine with me. There are many with unrealistic expectations of DG...expecting him to perform like a veteran Ron Artest or Scottie Pippen. I say, give it time....a couple years. Not every young player is a Lebron James. Many, many players including Pippen and Artest required years before they became all-star players.

DG is performing about as well as Artest was during Ron's 2nd or 3rd season where Ron had more opportunity to play and produce on a terrible Bulls team. Yet on a more talented team with already two high scoring interior players, DG's scoring is up from 7.5 to 10.5. He is being asked to develop a new aspect to his game (3pt shooting) due to the team's needs and that also takes away from his productivity (both in scoring and on the boards) as he climbs that learning curve. His numbers would be better if he were on a bad team and had to carry more of the offense and did not have to adjust to team needs. ...and as bad as DG has been shooting lately, his 3pt avg is still better than Ron's avg for ANY season except one....and that was the year Ron Ron only played 7 games.

I am optimistic that DG will turn out to be even better down the road as TPTB look to stretch his abilities.

avoidingtheclowns
11-25-2006, 03:43 PM
we lost to washington because no matter what these comebacks indicate we are not a great offensive team. our comebacks are fueled 70% by our defensive talent. the washington game we gave up playing defense in the second half. and despite the wizards not being able to play a lick of defense, they have really explosive offense.

i also think giving al a B and sjax a F is fairly ridiculous. i'm definitely not a sjax fan but i think he made up for his offensive woes on defense of king james. and i didn't think al's contribution was that spectacular. i think they both deserve C's.

i'm curious about quis too, it had to be either an injury or disciplinary because i don't see rick just not playing him for the hell of it.

Peck
11-25-2006, 05:21 PM
Just got back from the game, wow was that first half terrible it nearly put me to sleep.

I don't have the time or patience to give a full report, so let me just make a few observations.

Why, oh why do the Pacers start almost every home game so slow - I don't have the answer, but they start the game soft and not aggressive at all. It has gotten to the point where I expect a bad first half.

So has Marquis played himself into a position where he isn't going to get any time - I don't understand or like that. I will give him some credit as he was a good teammate tonight on the bench, he didn't sulk or cause any problems. I would like to know why Rick doesn't see the value in playing Daniels.

OK, let me get to the meat of what I want to say.

I'm going to repeat something I posted often during the 61 win season. Yes Harrington is a better player than Foster - there is no question about that. However, I think the Pacers are a better team with Foster on the floor with JO, and Granger along the frontline. . I think it is so obvious.

[B]Peck, I know you hate the JO and Jeff combo - but I would think that 95% of the reasons why you don't like JO and Jeff combo would apply more so for Al and JO combo.

That point leads into my next point the two key players for the Pacers tonight were Jeff and Saras with DA a possible 3rd key player (yes I know DA shot horribly) but I just hope we never ever forgot how important energy players are - and how important players who play with all out effort at all times - DA and Jeff does that.

I was impressed with Saras timely shot making. But what was key is that he didn't just stand at the 3 point, he was actually running off picks, getting the ball and hitting shots - but not 3 pointers, but rather 15 footers.

That flagrant foul on Jeff was a joke. Seemed to me they never would have called it if James hadn't reacted, like he did.



When you are watching the game on TV, you cannot fully understand how Jeff and DA change the game. It has nothing to do with stats, but those two energize the whole team - as Rick just said they just compete.

OK that is enough for now


I've reconciled the fact that I can't stand that combo but it has nothing to do with Jeff Foster.

It doesn't matter if it's Al or Jeff or Danny or whoever, I want a bruiser on the floor & I know that Wilt jr. is not going to do that. Al IMO is more physical than Jeff but that is like saying that an ice cube is colder than a snow cone.

Jeff absolutely (along with saras, Armstrong & finally Danny when he quit trying to be an old Dale Ellis) changed that game. In fact I'll say if it weren't for Jeff's play in the second half we would not have won that game.

As I said my problem is not with Jeff Foster in that combo.

Beowulfas
11-25-2006, 05:31 PM
The first thing, which was a surprise to me was calls, LeBron is receiving.
1) Jackson 2) Saruniukas 3) JO 4) Granger - they received fouls on LeBron for nothing. Foster even received flagrant foul :-o
I watch one game per day, which is covered by NBAtv, the conf. finals and finals, but I never saw this kind of calls beeing given to Iverson, or Jermaine, or Wade. Very strange calls. The officiating usually is very alike to Euroleague's, but in this case it was different.

Then the way, how JO played against Big Z :)
Mama mee-ah :)
He made Big Z look like he simply does not belong to the NBA anymore :)
I knew that Z is on the decline, but 2 points and a complete inability to stop JO was a surprise.
JO - simply fantastic.

Then Saruniukas :D
When he's hot he is damn good :)
But he was this kind of bi-polar player in Europe also.
When he was not good, he could kill our National Team alone. But he could kill USA team also :D
I see it is the same with Pacers :)
His +/- skyrocketed again :)
It seems coach does not have a limit to his play time, it's only him, making passes, shots, not turning the ball over and some defence.
But looking at Armstrongs play - he misses 3 three-pointers in the row, I doubt, Runi would have played 16 minutes as Armstrong did.

Overall I liked the game very much. Exciting, many emotions, beautiful basketball.
It seems Pacers have no limit and can beat everybody.

Pitons
11-25-2006, 07:41 PM
The first thing, which was a surprise to me was calls, LeBron is receiving.
1) Jackson 2) Saruniukas 3) JO 4) Granger - they received fouls on LeBron for nothing. Foster even received flagrant foul :-o


Actually, I think NBA gives LeBron some privileges on that that he would be able to have better stats and so a "better" superstar or something. I saw and not one time this season how the defender gets a foul for nothing only because there's LeBron.

But also I noticed one thing - don't know if it is a tendency, but referees gave the "debt" back fouling one of the other Cavs player also for nothing in defense in other episode.

CableKC
11-25-2006, 08:26 PM
I think part of the reason why Sarunas and Tinsley played so well ( as noted before ) is that the Cavs do not have very good perimeter and PG defenders.

When we play any team that does not have decent PG defenders.....Sarunas and Tinsley will flourish on the offensive end. But when we play teams that have PGs or perimeter defenders that have a clue on how to play defense against Tinsley and ( most notably ) Sarunas, then they will struggle...and therefore the team ( as a whole ) will struggle. This may explain why Sarunas is so hot and cold....he's hot when we play teams that don't defend him well...and he's cold when we play teams that know how to defend against him.

ALF68
11-25-2006, 08:57 PM
I think part of the reason why Sarunas and Tinsley played so well ( as noted before ) is that the Cavs do not have very good perimeter and PG defenders.

When we play any team that does not have decent PG defenders.....Sarunas and Tinsley will flourish on the offensive end. But when we play teams that have PGs or perimeter defenders that have a clue on how to play defense against Tinsley and ( most notably ) Sarunas, then they will struggle...and therefore the team ( as a whole ) will struggle. This may explain why Sarunas is so hot and cold....he's hot when we play teams that don't defend him well...and he's cold when we play teams that know how to defend against him.
Nice try, but I don't think so.

Pitons
11-25-2006, 09:35 PM
Maybe I'm a bit off topic, but Ilgauskas seems very angry on 76-ers after he was owned by JO yesterday.

2 quarter is ending and he has 12 points (6/14), 3 blocks, 12 rebounds (10 offensive rebounds - his career high 12), 2 assists and no turnovers yet. :)

Pitons
11-25-2006, 09:38 PM
And 1 more block for him.

BlueNGold
11-25-2006, 11:12 PM
Maybe I'm a bit off topic, but Ilgauskas seems very angry on 76-ers after he was owned by JO yesterday.

2 quarter is ending and he has 12 points (6/14), 3 blocks, 12 rebounds (10 offensive rebounds - his career high 12), 2 assists and no turnovers yet. :)

He should be angry. He stank badly against us. I can only guess that the faster pace of the game did not mesh with his skills too well.

CableKC
11-25-2006, 11:13 PM
Nice try, but I don't think so.
Could you provide some insight into why you don't think so?

IMHO...teams that know how to pressure Sarunas on the defensive end when he has the ball is going to cause problems for him....most notably when he is trying to distribute and shoot the ball.

BlueNGold
11-26-2006, 12:17 AM
Could you provide some insight into why you don't think so?

IMHO...teams that know how to pressure Sarunas on the defensive end when he has the ball is going to cause problems for him....most notably when he is trying to distribute and shoot the ball.

Cable, you could be right. The Cavs were missing Larry Hughes who would have made it tougher on him. Sarunas has big problems defending quick OR physical guards, particularly if they like to drive to the bucket. Instead, he faced soft jump shooters in Wesley and Damon Jones...two guys who could not defend their mothers. Neither are particularly quick or physical...neither typically drive to the bucket...and both specialize on perimeter shots...something Saras is more capable of defending. Also, Wesley is getting pretty old and his game has dramatically fell off. It really was a perfect situation for him to play well, particularly since he got a chance to stick it to Z.

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2006, 01:06 AM
heh, ask and you shall recieve.

Sarunas is amazing off of pick and rolls that's how we need to use him to get him started once he hits those little runners he can step from behind the line and nail people to the wall. He's also doing really well with Tinsley and his passes are as usual phenomonal lets hope he can build on this, he always seems to have a let down right after games like this or we just flat out don't use him the same way.

The way Lebron James was getting foul calls tonight I thought maybe another certain #23 had come out of retirement. That was ridiculous most ticky tack foul calls i've seen all year for someone who is so "tough and strong" they sure do like to keep the NBA poster boy safe.
The PnR is a Euro-standard and he (typically) runs it very well. It's where he is at his most comfortable and usually most effective (he and David scored well with it last year all season).

The Pacers have been running double PnR sets, especially vs CLE, where it would go on one side and if nothing came they kicked to the FT line (like JO) who would them move it to the other PG (dual PG sets) and they'd run another right away from the other elbow. A couple of SarJas scores came off that 2nd one where he was able to dribble to the FT line and pop. I've said all along that he is better at scoring off the dribble than catch and shoot.

He wasn't playing the main PG in those spots, but Rick has been running that dual PG thing, specifically the double PnR but also other types of sets that take advantage of 2 PG types on court together. At one point he had DA, Sarunas and Tinsley all on the court together (when Tins drew the Pavlovic foul), though Rawle then came in for Tins.



I knew the Jordan Rules were in effect when Danny was called for a foul with his hands literally behind his back in an effort to avoid a foul call. Pretty stupid at that point. "Illegal not letting Mr. James have a free jumper on #33" :mad:



IMHO...teams that know how to pressure Sarunas on the defensive end when he has the ball is going to cause problems for him....most notably when he is trying to distribute and shoot the ball.I agree BUT teams haven't been trying. And honestly when teams have pressured earlier in the year the Pacers just had the other PG or even a guy like Jack, Quis or Danny bring it up.

I think the pressure has perhaps dropped because the Pacers proved that they could protect the backcourt dribble even with Sarunas on the court. All it takes is for a team to prove it has a solution to the strategy to make teams look elsewhere for an advantage.


Peck, I can't believe you watched a game in which JO scored and drew fouls at will, as well as making a pivitol block on that Snow layup, and concluded that JO wasn't a major part of the turnaround.

IMO JO is there all the time and the reason other players "shine" is because when they finally join him in getting something productive done it gives the team enough to pull ahead and win. So people make and A therefore B conclusion, ignoring the fact that if JO really did wilt like some of his teammates did it wouldn't matter how hot they got.

It's okay for Tins and Sarunas to look great on offense when JO's cleaning up their messes on the other end (which he has been all year, thus the 3 blocks per).

JO is the baseline that puts them a good portion of the way there. After him you just need to get 2-3 other guys going. Unfortunately there have been a few nights that didn't happen. I'm not saying he's perfect or without a few duds himself, but I strongly disagree that he wasn't one of the biggest factors in the CLE game rather than a problem (which you implied I think).



Tins and Sarunas have finally put together a couple of decent offensive nights together in a row. Hopefully that is a trend because the team has been waiting on them.


All that's left is to get Jack on track or to reduce his shots to dunks and layups only till he is on track.

“We must find a better way to get off the blocks. We make it hard on ourselves on both ends of the floor, defense and offense. All our players are beginning to contribute and we must continue to be competitive and win games like this." (On his shooting touch) "My shooting touch is still not there. I will continue to work on this until I get it right. I know I have a long way to go but this is a long season.”
At least he knows and seems to somewhat be altering his play to match it. I know many fans hate him but let's be fair here, if this was a player you liked you'd want him to remain positive about the situation even while acknowledging the struggle. If he really is putting the work in to get it right then more power to him and the positive attitude, and I hope it comes around (lord know they could use it).

Naptown_Seth
11-26-2006, 01:19 AM
Do you want Al guarding the other teams best offensive players - I sure don't. Granger did a great job on James tonight. We need our best defender on the floor to start the game. I'd either bring Al off the bench, or take him out after 3 minutes or so
Don't fool yourself on Danny. He has his moments but he also still makes bad defensive mistakes. His thing is that if the ball is in front of him and a guy wants to take him, that he can usually deal well with. But away from the ball, especially when the switches get nasty or the ball bounces around loose on a crazy play, he gets lost in a hurry much of the time. That's the experience talking there I think.

Al couldn't go out on LeBron of course, but situations could vary. Other times it would feature Al posting the snot out of the other team's SF and drawing fouls all over the place. You get a guy like Pierce switched onto Al and he wants no part of defending him.

Plus its not like Danny slowed James down dramatically. He did well, but he was unable to threaten James at the other end. Al would typically be able to at least do that.



Honestly I think the early offensive playbook looks too timid and forced. It's not as simple as effort, though Rick thinks it is. They run different sets later in games IMO. The start of games from them on offense is like a boxer coming out with jabs to feel out the opponent. I love Rick and defend him constantly, but I do think this does reflect him a little bit, his structure and conservative offensive philosophy.

I've often noticed games that feature every different starter getting one look on the first 5-6 plays, like he's literally game planned to get everyone an early touch (and maybe this is true). None of those plays really look like comfortable shots. Maybe he should let them slop it up for about 3-4 minutes and feel their way into what is there and who is hot, and then gameplan for how things look.

You have to admit that if halftime adjustments reflect on the coaching, the Pacers have been getting some good alterations to the plan for the 2nd halves. Adjustment hasn't appeared to be a problem.

SycamoreKen
11-26-2006, 01:24 AM
One thing I forgot to mention is that the two biggest weaknesses of this team, rebounding and turnovers, were both very strong tonight. That says something about this team.

I have not seen many games, but isn't this team's biggest weakness the inability to hit shots? If we win another game when shooting less than 40% again I'll be very surprised.

Great comments by everyone. I enjoy reading these post game threads a lot.

Peck
11-26-2006, 01:29 AM
The PnR is a Euro-standard and he (typically) runs it very well. It's where he is at his most comfortable and usually most effective (he and David scored well with it last year all season).

The Pacers have been running double PnR sets, especially vs CLE, where it would go on one side and if nothing came they kicked to the FT line (like JO) who would them move it to the other PG (dual PG sets) and they'd run another right away from the other elbow. A couple of SarJas scores came off that 2nd one where he was able to dribble to the FT line and pop. I've said all along that he is better at scoring off the dribble than catch and shoot.

He wasn't playing the main PG in those spots, but Rick has been running that dual PG thing, specifically the double PnR but also other types of sets that take advantage of 2 PG types on court together. At one point he had DA, Sarunas and Tinsley all on the court together (when Tins drew the Pavlovic foul), though Rawle then came in for Tins.



I knew the Jordan Rules were in effect when Danny was called for a foul with his hands literally behind his back in an effort to avoid a foul call. Pretty stupid at that point. "Illegal not letting Mr. James have a free jumper on #33" :mad:


I agree BUT teams haven't been trying. And honestly when teams have pressured earlier in the year the Pacers just had the other PG or even a guy like Jack, Quis or Danny bring it up.

I think the pressure has perhaps dropped because the Pacers proved that they could protect the backcourt dribble even with Sarunas on the court. All it takes is for a team to prove it has a solution to the strategy to make teams look elsewhere for an advantage.


Peck, I can't believe you watched a game in which JO scored and drew fouls at will, as well as making a pivitol block on that Snow layup, and concluded that JO wasn't a major part of the turnaround.
IMO JO is there all the time and the reason other players "shine" is because when they finally join him in getting something productive done it gives the team enough to pull ahead and win. So people make and A therefore B conclusion, ignoring the fact that if JO really did wilt like some of his teammates did it wouldn't matter how hot they got.

It's okay for Tins and Sarunas to look great on offense when JO's cleaning up their messes on the other end (which he has been all year, thus the 3 blocks per).

JO is the baseline that puts them a good portion of the way there. After him you just need to get 2-3 other guys going. Unfortunately there have been a few nights that didn't happen. I'm not saying he's perfect or without a few duds himself, but I strongly disagree that he wasn't one of the biggest factors in the CLE game rather than a problem (which you implied I think).



Tins and Sarunas have finally put together a couple of decent offensive nights together in a row. Hopefully that is a trend because the team has been waiting on them.


All that's left is to get Jack on track or to reduce his shots to dunks and layups only till he is on track.

At least he knows and seems to somewhat be altering his play to match it. I know many fans hate him but let's be fair here, if this was a player you liked you'd want him to remain positive about the situation even while acknowledging the struggle. If he really is putting the work in to get it right then more power to him and the positive attitude, and I hope it comes around (lord know they could use it).

He was important in the win. However his block on Snow as a foul on Jermaine, but that only slightly makes up for the B.S. calls that James was getting all night long. Fosters Flagrant was obscene to say the least.

Look I'm trying my best to just ignore O'Neal at this time. Trust me I have to fight back every single solitary day the urge to make a "he's dead to me" post.

I am just trying to let some time pass & maybe my anger/hatred will subside.

So while I aknowledge that he had a good game I do not care one bit about his low post offense or his personal stats. He worries enough about that for all of us.

Sorry Jermaine fans, I just happen to like the Pacers & team ball & right now I cannot coralate the two with Jermaine & his "I need more low post touches".

I cannot help but notice that Al has gone into a severe slump since the day of that speech. Could it be he back? Sure. Could it be he just isn't hitting? Sure. Could it be that his role in the offense has changed so that Wilt jr. can get his low post touches? Well, sure.

Like I said I've had to for years develop a tolerance for O'Neal & frankly the greatest thing for him was for us to have Artest on our team because that made Jermaine look like a team player, but now that the cover is no longer there.....

Please all, ignore this post. As I said I am trying my best & to be honest I've said to much already on this one.

speakout4
11-26-2006, 01:53 AM
Do you want Al guarding the other teams best offensive players - I sure don't. Granger did a great job on James tonight. We need our best defender on the floor to start the game. I'd either bring Al off the bench, or take him out after 3 minutes or so

Are you saying that if Al started and granger sat leaving Al to defend the best offensive player we wouldn't be down by 15 ponts in the first quarter. When the team gets down by that much then we don't have to worry about who our defenders are because no one is doing any defending. I just want to start the offensive game as soon as possible and granger doesn't do that but defers to others who aren't doing that. In the last two games Granger took 5 -6 shots per game. Putting granger and foster as starters is a sure recipe for a slow start because most of the time tinsley is also a slow starter and if Quis or Jax aren't getting the job done then only JO is out there doing the job.

Mamluk
11-26-2006, 07:24 AM
JO dominated big Z I mean it was so bad I'd imagine Z is gonna have nightmares about having to guard Jermaine again


I guess if he did, those nightmares helped him a lot - he had 18 and 15 (including 12 offensive rebs) + 5 blocks tonight against Philly :)

Kestas
11-26-2006, 08:08 AM
Z is practically worthless in today's NBA.

Z last night against the Sixers: 18 points, 15 rebounds (12 of them offensive), 5 blocks, 2 assists, 1 turnover = the MVP for the Cavaliers who won by 13... Z's direct opponent, Dalembert: 6 points, 8 rebounds in the same time. and I recon Sixers are representing what one would call "today's NBA".

PaceBalls
11-26-2006, 08:32 AM
Z last night against the Sixers: 18 points, 15 rebounds (12 of them offensive), 5 blocks, 2 assists, 1 turnover = the MVP for the Cavaliers who won by 13... Z's direct opponent, Dalembert: 6 points, 8 rebounds in the same time. and I recon Sixers are representing what one would call "today's NBA".


Right, to me, this shows even more what a great game JO had.

I've really liked his game this year, besides the rebounding and boxing out issues which everyone has been talking about his whole career... and these issues are IMPORTANT!!!
BUT besides that, he has been totally kicking butt all over the court. He is blocking shots like he was HakeemO. Think if someone could teach him how to box out properly.... it's not that hard!!! He would be really worth his contract... a top 5 type of player.