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View Full Version : 11-22-06: Pacers vs. Magic Post-Game Thread (aka Same Old Pacers)



Shade
11-22-2006, 10:42 PM
JO still can't block out.
Jack still can't shoot.
Foster still can't make a layup.
Admittedly, I haven't been able to watch much of the Pacers this season so far (school and work are kicking my @$$), but from what I've seen the last couple games, it feels like I haven't missed a beat. You would think that at some point, these players would improve upon these obvious deficiencies. But it just never happens, does it?

Btw, Denari >>>>> Albert

Fireball Kid
11-22-2006, 10:46 PM
What's up with Marquis only getting 2 FG attempts? He only got 3 FG attempts in the Bucks game. Are they not looking for him or is he just not part of the offense?

Pitons
11-22-2006, 10:48 PM
What's up with Marquis only getting 2 FG attempts? He only got 3 FG attempts in the Bucks game. Are they not looking for him or is he just not part of the offense?

Yea, it's strange to me too.

J_2_Da_IzzO
11-22-2006, 10:53 PM
Why did Al shoot so much? Im not the biggest admirer of Jack but I know for a fact if Jack went 1-12 with 3 turnovers we would have 3 threads right now saying he should be traded.

Shade
11-22-2006, 10:55 PM
Why did Al shoot so much? Im not the biggest admirer of Jack but I know for a fact if Jack went 1-12 with 3 turnovers we would have 3 threads right now saying he should be traded.

Some of us dubbed Al "Black Hole" for a reason.

Problem is, with Jack, we now have two black holes apparently trying to suck each other in.

skyfire
11-22-2006, 10:57 PM
JO still can't block out.



Someone needs to call up the Rick Carlisle show and ask him straight up, why doesn't JO block out?

ajbry
11-22-2006, 10:58 PM
Usually I don't like to pin losses on individual players, but Al simply had a terrible game. Couldn't get anything going in the least bit and essentially handicapped our entire offensive game.

Tins had another solid game and JO as well.

ALF68
11-22-2006, 10:59 PM
Some of us dubbed Al "Black Hole" for a reason.

Problem is, with Jack, we now have two black holes apparently trying to suck each other in.
That's the funniest thing that I've heard all day, sad but true.

Kegboy
11-22-2006, 10:59 PM
Btw, Denari >>>>> Albert

QFT (not to mention the rest of your post, as well)

Shade
11-22-2006, 11:00 PM
Someone needs to call up the Rick Carlisle show and ask him straight up, why doesn't JO block out?

The final straw for me was with a little less than 2 minutes left, watching as Tinsley fought to get the ball back (off a missed shot), with JO just standing there for the entire time staring into the abyss. He didn't even attempt to fight for position. I was also pissed that nobody attempted to help Tins retrieve the ball, either. We just stood there and watched as a critical possession was pissed away.

ajbry
11-22-2006, 11:01 PM
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/getty/68/full.getty-71796767fm004_pacers_magic_9_15_46_pm.jpg

Shouldn't JO feel obligated to be in Jack's position, rather than what we see here?

Unclebuck
11-22-2006, 11:15 PM
Up until tonight Jeff was hitting a good % of his layups. I see he shot 2 of 5 tonight and I missed probably 60% of the game, so I don't know what he missed. I saw his one dunk.

JO doesn't block out, we know that and I have to figure he refuses to do it - because I'm 99.9% sure he's been told to block out. How many coaches has he had - how many different defensive coaches has he had.

We all know Jax is very streaky.

I missed the 1st and 3rd quarters tonight but for the most part and I thought the Pacers played a decent game overall - the ball movement was excellent.

One thing I'm very, very concerned about though. Too many times tonight and this whole season the pacers help defense just isn't in position to help when we get beat off the dribble. How many times did Nelson get an easy layup, Grant Hill was able to get to the rim uncontested several times. I can't stand when that happens

rimock31
11-22-2006, 11:16 PM
Just to look for a positive in this loss, games like these are good because another team's GM can watch and actually be crazy enough to think of trading for tinsley or jax

Kstat
11-22-2006, 11:22 PM
...and then they see Tinsley is BYC and forget about it.

BruceLeeroy
11-22-2006, 11:22 PM
I didn't catch the game until early in the second half. By that time Jax was already in the game and I think they'd just given up 8 straight points and the lead to Orlando. I'm not bashing Jax, just wondering were Marquis was? Was he in foul trouble or did Jax start.....anyone know?

Unclebuck
11-22-2006, 11:24 PM
I didn't catch the game until early in the second half. By that time Jax was already in the game and I think they'd just given up 8 straight points and the lead to Orlando. I'm not bashing Jax, just wondering were Marquis was? Was he in foul trouble or did Jax start.....anyone know?

Marquis started, but he rarely gets the ball in the halfcourt offense when he's out there with the starters.

He had a really, really nice fastbreak layup right before halftime

BruceLeeroy
11-22-2006, 11:48 PM
Marquis started, but he rarely gets the ball in the halfcourt offense when he's out there with the starters.

He had a really, really nice fastbreak layup right before halftime

Ya, I saw that replay. That was a NASTY ball fake. Jax thought it was pretty nice too. He was screaming with delight before the ball even went through the hoop.

Am I wrong about it being really early when he was taken out in the second half? If not what was the reason.

Unclebuck
11-23-2006, 12:05 AM
Ya, I saw that replay. That was a NASTY ball fake. Jax thought it was pretty nice too. He was screaming with delight before the ball even went through the hoop.

Am I wrong about it being really early when he was taken out in the second half? If not what was the reason.


I don't know why he was taken out - but he isn't being used correctly. Seeing Marquis standing at the three point line waiting for the ball just isn't right. But then Tinsley can't do that either, so I don't have the answer.

purdue101
11-23-2006, 12:30 AM
i thought rick did a poor job with the substitutions in the second half. marquis or foster should have been in the game the final 5 mins ahead of harrington. al was just ineffective tonight - watching him continually shoot outside jumpers was very frustrating. rarely did i see him take it to the hole or post up. he seemed a little intimidated going against that frontcourt of battie and howard. i think the one time he really did get deep in the post he ended up pump faking himself into a travelling violation. anyways, i think he should have sat during the 4th for quis or foster. we tend to get more easy buckets and second chance points when those two are on the floor due to steals/deflections and offensive boards.

on a positive note - it was nice to see tinsley, jax, and jo have good games. seems those three are starting to get into a rhythm. tins is playing with a lot of energy and passion, which is welcoming sign.

storm1015
11-23-2006, 01:45 AM
I just got back from the game and I have a few observations. This is the first Pacers game I have attended in almost 3 years. I do get the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">League</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Pass</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, so I follow closely.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
1) It can be easy to forget just how athletic these guys are. The first quarter when the Pacers legs were still fresh I was amazed by how quick and lively Tinsley looked. He actually got some lift on his jumpshot. Although by late in the game his legs went dead even though he still took it strong to the goal.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
2) Tinsley needs to let his personal vendettas go. Whenever he feels slighted he becomes a different player, and not one that is good for a team. He can score, but he can also isolate his own team. He did that late tonight when he thought Darko fouled him twice. I don't know how he didn't get a T. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
3) Foster had a bigger impact on this game than the box score showed. He was our most active player.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
4) I'm with all of you, I don't know where Marquis went, but he could have had a bigger impact. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
5) <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Orlando</st1:place></st1:City> could have run away with this game if they hit more FT's. Also, if they would have stuck with their 1st half offense more in the 2nd half. They immediately started with Hedo on baseline iso's and he had success. Then the moved to a staggered screen where Al would help off of Battie and Battie his 3 or 4 wide open shots. Howard was abusing JO in the post and was much quicker which leads into my next point...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
6) JO does not block out and JO needs help on post defense. Not only did Howard get him in the first half, but Darko took it to him in the 2nd. Darko pulled out the Kevin Willis jump hook. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
7) Nelson was faster than every guard we have. He could do anything he wanted with the ball; he just wasn't sure how much to shoot tonight. He could have scored 40 with the way he got open.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
8) Nobody is respecting our outside shooting. <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Orlando</st1:place></st1:City> dared Tinsley, Jackson, Daniels, and Granger to shoot. We need to have a big run on shooting to loosen up defenses. Daniels is really afraid to shoot from outside of 10 feet unless he has all day to setup. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
9) I hate to get back to a Tinsley negative but... Late in the game Tinsley came out (probably around 2-3 minutes left). I thought he fouled out. During the TO break he braced himself against the end of the bench and did not join the huddle. He seemed ticked off. I thought it was b/c he fouled out. Wrong, as soon as we got the ball back RC put him back in. This is when he got into it with the refs regarding Darko. How does Tinsley know the strategy? I'm not sure how RC lets this stuff go. There was even a lady from the front row who walked up to Tinsley and put her hands on him and talked to him (I'm assuming just in fun). He didn't respond to any of it, but it was very strange. What was he doing, and where was security? Maybe this goes on more than I realize and the cameras don't catch it. Anybody else see any of this? <o:p></o:p>

10) All of this being said, we had a chance. It gives me hope that we can find the right mix and have a better year. I still think we need a trade or two, but some pieces are in place.

Bball
11-23-2006, 02:07 AM
...and then they see Tinsley is BYC and forget about it.

I thought he was past that??? When does that end? I've lost track. The seasons are running together.

-Bball

Trader Joe
11-23-2006, 02:07 AM
Someone needs to call up the Rick Carlisle show and ask him straight up, why doesn't JO block out?

Yeah, and while you are at it why don't you ask him how even when JO apparently never blocks out he manages to pull down 11 boards tonight and 13 boards last night and lead our team in rebounding? I would really like to know.

Seriously what more do people want from him?

Oh and on top of that I didn't see the game but from the box score it looks like we got straight up jobbed and I HATE blaming the refs, but c'mon 43 FTA, SIX fouls on Tins of all people in 25 minutes and 5 fouls on JO in 33. We win if they both play their usual minutes.

Trader Joe
11-23-2006, 02:11 AM
I can't believe we are *****ing about a guy that had 11 rebounds tonight blocking out. ESPECIALLY when it is above his career average. And yet Al Harrington has so far gotten off mostly scott free for what looks at best as a sub par performance and that is being VERY generous.
BUT no here at PD we are gonna ***** about a guy not blocking out who had 11 rebounds tonight not to mention 23 points in less than his usual minutes played.
I don't even know whether I can be angry about it anymore it just makes me laugh.

EDIT:
Oh and why didn't Rick do what he did last night (which was a brilliant move BTW I will give him credit for it) and pull Al. I mean c'mon 2/13 is just unacceptable I don't care who you are. I mean thats a bad night for Jack right now and that is coming during a time when a good night for Jack is like 36% from the field.

Bball
11-23-2006, 02:14 AM
What worries me that hasn't been mentioned is the turnovers. Not turnovers from being aggressive and/or learning the other players and just misjudging a move or ability... turnovers that are just bad ball handling. Lazy passes. Lazy dribbling. Lack of court awareness allowing someone an easy steal.

On another front-
I'm curious... did Al's slump coincide with JO's 'talk' with TPTB? Is it coincidental or have we made some changes that is changing Al's positioning and looks (and comfort zone)? Where's our analytical coaching gurus when you need 'em?


-Bball

Quis
11-23-2006, 02:45 AM
Jermaine O'Neal A
He didn't shoot great from the field, but he was 9-10 from the line so that balanced it out. And 11 boards in only 33 minutes is fantastic so I have no idea why people are *****ing about that. His defense was also on all game, as he helped contain the blossoming Dwight Howard. Just an overall great game from one of the leagues most underrated stars.

Jamaal Tinsley A-
When Jamaal Tinsley is on his game I'd say he's one of the 4-5 most complete point guards in the entire league. He just stuffs a stat sheet and brings everything to the court. Tonight was one of those nights. 19 points on great shooting, 7 dimes, 1 to, and 4 boards all in only 25 minutes is spectacular. My only beef was his defense, where the much quicker Jameer Nelson lit him up. But then again, Jameer has the offensive talent to light up any point guard in the league.

Danny Granger C
His offense continues to impress me, he really looks like a future 20 per game scorer, and his defense is as strong as ever, but what happened to his strong rebounding as a rookie? All the talk about JO's rebounding, and the Pacers Digest darling Danny Granger gets let off the hook. And before anyone mentions him playing away from the basket on offense, let me point out its his defensive rebounding thats way, way down from last year.

Al Harrington F
We'll forget this game ever happened. Let's hope we get a lot more of the All-Star Al we got for the past 2 1/2 weeks and no more of what we saw tonight.

Marquis Daniels C
Quis needs to shoot more, plain and simple. That move he pulled off tonight was one of the most impressive moves I've seen a Pacer pull off in years and is just a small glimpse at the talent Quis possesses. He can get to the basketball anytime he pleases.

Stephen Jackson C+
6-14 is an off night for most shooting guards. For Stephen Jackson it's one of his better games. Thats sad. Jackson was decent offensively, but provided very little else. He continues to disappoint the Pacers fans and team management. There's rumors he could be traded by the end of the month.

Rawle Marshall C
I'm not completely sold on his overall game, but his offense is very well developed inside the three-point line. I could see him becoming a mid-teens scorer in the NBA provided someone gives him enough minutes.

Sarunas Jasikevicius D+
Another weak game by our Eurobust Saras. 3 turnovers in 14 minutes? Please go back to Lithuania or Israel or wherever you came from.

Darrell Armstrong D
He only played 7 minutes and in those 7 minutes he did....next to nothing. 3 boards, and he missed his only shot attempt, a 3. Oh well, he's still been great on the season as a whole.

Jeff Foster B
Foster is one of the few guys in the entire league who's capable of out rebounding Dwight Howard, and thats exactly what he did tonight. I wish we could give Jeff's rebounding to Al.

Just
11-23-2006, 02:48 AM
What did happen to Danny's rebounding?

CableKC
11-23-2006, 03:05 AM
I'm just gonna chalk this one up to playing back to back games with the 2nd game being a road trip.

Also....is there a reason why Marquis played only 13 minutes?

Israfan
11-23-2006, 03:19 AM
Quis. You. Are. Hysteric.

You are driving me crazy with your comments. I don't remember anybody from Saras crowd anywere near your Marcus obsession, though he is 100 times (in Europe) a star Quis is (in NBA).

Take care

The Hustler
11-23-2006, 03:37 AM
from what i could pick up i thought we looked good ... i thought we moved th ball well and defended adequatly .... but at the end of the day we couldnt get the ball in the hole. ... we gunna have days like that ... but mostly im still encouraged by an all round gd performance ....

SycamoreKen
11-23-2006, 04:26 AM
Stephen Jackson C+[/b]
6-14 is an off night for most shooting guards. For Stephen Jackson it's one of his better games. Thats sad. Jackson was decent offensively, but provided very little else. He continues to disappoint the Pacers fans and team management. There's rumors he could be traded by the end of the month.



Who is going to trade for him when no one can be sure he will play in 2 months? As for the game, I didn't get to see it, so I can only make box score observations. Did the foul desparency have anything to do with us settling for jump shots? Even with the difference, if we shoot even half way decently we win the game.

skyfire
11-23-2006, 06:51 AM
Yeah, and while you are at it why don't you ask him how even when JO apparently never blocks out he manages to pull down 11 boards tonight and 13 boards last night and lead our team in rebounding? I would really like to know.

Seriously what more do people want from him?

Rebounding and blocking out are two different things. Blocking out prevents your man from getting the rebound, simple as that. Its a skill that kids are taught when they are learning basketball. Every single NBA player should block out. Boxing out helps your team rebound, but doesn't add much to your rebounding total.

I'm glad JO is ripping in 11 boards, thats a decent effort. But not blocking out might be giving the opposition several extra offensive rebounds per game.

lumber man
11-23-2006, 07:57 AM
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I'm just gonna chalk this one up to playing back to back games with the 2nd game being a road trip.

Also....is there a reason why Marquis played only 13 minutes?
same here. they are playing alot of games very fast. i'll bet that 2 hr. plane delay didn't help much either.:gopacers:
</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
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BlueNGold
11-23-2006, 08:13 AM
Usually I don't like to pin losses on individual players, but Al simply had a terrible game. Couldn't get anything going in the least bit and essentially handicapped our entire offensive game.

Hilarious. Al had a Jack-like shooting performance and gets criticism from you. :laugh:

MagicRat
11-23-2006, 08:28 AM
On another front-
I'm curious... did Al's slump coincide with JO's 'talk' with TPTB? Is it coincidental or have we made some changes that is changing Al's positioning and looks (and comfort zone)? Where's our analytical coaching gurus when you need 'em?


-Bball

I tend to think the poor shooting coincided with his sore back............:whoknows:

Hicks
11-23-2006, 09:51 AM
I tend to think the poor shooting coincided with his sore back............:whoknows:

:shhh: :spy:

;)

Will Galen
11-23-2006, 10:26 AM
I thought he was past that??? When does that end? I've lost track. The seasons are running together.

-Bball

I thought it ended too. RealGM doesn't have Tinsley as BYC.

This was the first Pacer game I've seen this year only because it was televised down here. Some observations;

The Pacers started out moving but by the 4th quarter were standing around. Tinsley looked good but I still think we need another point guard. He couldn't stop dribble penetration and that kills us. Maybe Green could do it but if he's not used what good is he?

JO looked better than he has the last two years. More like Duncan. He would pass the ball back out when he got it like Duncan does. Once, I think in the 4th quarter, him and Jax passed it back and forth at least three times.

I didn't care for the announcers down here, they got a lot of stuff wrong about the Pacers.

Saras needs to quit making lazy passes. One he got picked off though was just bad luck. The guy had his back turned and his arm accidentally hit the ball.

My over all impression was that the Pacers are still a work in progress.

Trader Joe
11-23-2006, 10:29 AM
Rebounding and blocking out are two different things. Blocking out prevents your man from getting the rebound, simple as that. Its a skill that kids are taught when they are learning basketball. Every single NBA player should block out. Boxing out helps your team rebound, but doesn't add much to your rebounding total.

I'm glad JO is ripping in 11 boards, thats a decent effort. But not blocking out might be giving the opposition several extra offensive rebounds per game.

11 boards is a DECENT effort? In 33 minutes I'd say it borders on being a fantastic effort.

storm1015
11-23-2006, 10:32 AM
Rebounding and blocking out are two different things. Blocking out prevents your man from getting the rebound, simple as that. Its a skill that kids are taught when they are learning basketball. Every single NBA player should block out. Boxing out helps your team rebound, but doesn't add much to your rebounding total.

I'm glad JO is ripping in 11 boards, thats a decent effort. But not blocking out might be giving the opposition several extra offensive rebounds per game.

Exactly, blocking out helps team rebounding. JO can certainly go get the ball with his size and instincts but he and others would benefit from blocking out. I don't blame all of this on JO. I don't see very many players blocking out. We probably hold JO to a higher standard since he is our best player/rebounder.

It seems players are so quick now that they have probably gotten away with the "just go get the ball" strategy without correction. It works sometimes, but if you don't get there it is probably because someone else didn't block out or your zone had a guy get there faster (since you didn't block out).

Unclebuck
11-23-2006, 11:03 AM
It is no coincidence that when JO is out of the lineup the Pacers are a better rebounding team. The last two years it has worked out that way, but I will grant you that last year Pollard and jeff played together and the year before Jff and Dale played together when JO was out.

Will Galen
11-23-2006, 12:07 PM
It is no coincidence that when JO is out of the lineup the Pacers are a better rebounding team. The last two years it has worked out that way, but I will grant you that last year Pollard and Jeff played together and the year before Jeff and Dale played together when JO was out.

Speaking of Dale and Pollard, I wonder if they like sitting. Both would get more playing time if they would have resigned with the Pacers. Personally they should have been set for life after their first contracts. Me, I would prefer to be like Armstrong. Make a bit less money (still over a million dollars) and get some playing time.

Which brings up another thought, and that's how coaches play old vets. Obviously they still have it, they just can't bring it for 30-35 minutes a game. Me, I would just use them mainly in the 4th quarter. For instant I still think Reggie could bring it for one quarter.

Kstat
11-23-2006, 12:20 PM
Speaking of Dale and Pollard, I wonder if they like sitting.

Dale isn't sitting anymore. He's the first big man off the bench.

Will Galen
11-23-2006, 12:42 PM
Dale isn't sitting anymore. He's the first big man off the bench.

He's moved ahead of McDyess? Or is MyDyess injured?

Kstat
11-23-2006, 12:52 PM
He's moved ahead of McDyess? Or is MyDyess injured?

Neither. Dale is the backup center now. McDyess is exclusively a power forward.

Dale only plays 6-10 minutes per game, but he's almost always the first big man off the bench. In the 4th quarter we almost always go small, so Dale doesn't play much then.

Will Galen
11-23-2006, 01:16 PM
Neither. Dale is the backup center now. McDyess is exclusively a power forward.

Dale only plays 6-10 minutes per game, but he's almost always the first big man off the bench. In the 4th quarter we almost always go small, so Dale doesn't play much then.

Okay, I understand. When someone says 'first big man off the bench' it usually means center or power forward. You're using it just for center which is misleading since you're only using it for one position.

Bball
11-23-2006, 01:36 PM
Dale would've likely been playing... but Pollard didn't get to play when he was here so I fail to see why he'd get to play now. ...Unless you think that less Iso-ball = more Pollard time.

-Bball

Kstat
11-23-2006, 01:37 PM
Okay, I understand. When someone says 'first big man off the bench' it usually means center or power forward. You're using it just for center which is misleading since you're only using it for one position.

All I meant was that Dale is playing as big a role here as he'd play anywhere else.

CableKC
11-23-2006, 01:40 PM
Rebounding and blocking out are two different things. Blocking out prevents your man from getting the rebound, simple as that. Its a skill that kids are taught when they are learning basketball. Every single NBA player should block out. Boxing out helps your team rebound, but doesn't add much to your rebounding total.

I'm glad JO is ripping in 11 boards, thats a decent effort. But not blocking out might be giving the opposition several extra offensive rebounds per game.

I learn something new everyday.
:tmyk:
Admittedly....in JONeal's defense....if he was trying to block out Dwight Howard.....I will give him a little slack. Howard is rather huge, quick and skilled when it comes to rebounding. I'm not surprised that JONeal couldn't block him out. Since I can't really watch Pacer games that often....outside of this game....does JONeal "block out" the player that he is usually defending on a regular basis ( or at least makes some type of effort to do so )?

3rdStrike
11-23-2006, 01:45 PM
How about the next time Al or Jack has a horrid shooting night, they let Marshall and Daniels take some shots?

That's two straight for Harrington. If his injury is affecting his shooting, then don't play him until he's healthy, simple as that. He isn't the glue that holds the team together or anything like that.

Bball
11-23-2006, 01:54 PM
I forgot about Al's back injury. Didn't he say he wouldn't play until it was 100%?

In any case, I know he proclaimed himself 100% prior to the Bucks game and following his accupuncture procedure.

Back injuries are funny things (not funny 'ha-ha'). Sometimes they just 'hit' you... sometimes you notice something coming on slowly... sometimes it goes away fast....sometimes it goes on for days and then one day gets markedly better after little improvement for a few days prior.

Of course that's from the POV of someone who isn't an athlete with highly trained doctors and trainers at his call. But I bet some of that helps more with prevention and limiting the episodes than anything.

Didn't Al have back surgery when he was here before? I seem to recall that he did but I could be wrong....

-Bball

Peck
11-24-2006, 04:16 AM
Speaking of Dale and Pollard, I wonder if they like sitting. Both would get more playing time if they would have resigned with the Pacers. Personally they should have been set for life after their first contracts. Me, I would prefer to be like Armstrong. Make a bit less money (still over a million dollars) and get some playing time.

Which brings up another thought, and that's how coaches play old vets. Obviously they still have it, they just can't bring it for 30-35 minutes a game. Me, I would just use them mainly in the 4th quarter. For instant I still think Reggie could bring it for one quarter.


Not to just jump on board because of Dale and all ;) but let's not forget the Pacers never offered Dale a contract. That money all went to Saras.

Larry Bird has said this himself that they never got around to offering Dale a contract, now if they would have or not I can't tell you but I do know they did not.

But I feel pretty sure that Dale probably would not have signed anyway. He had a chance to play for a team that was a real contender with one of his friends in the league & let's face it he knew what was going on behind the locker room doors so I be he probably knew that team was in for a big crash & he was to old to do that.

Ok, let me talk shortly about the Orlando game. Because of the holiday I did not get to see the game live but I tivod it & just watched it.

I think it is important to remember that the Pacers played a game the night before & that the team plane was late leaving, so I think the Pacers were tired.

But let's not let them off scot free.

I will say this straight up front. Al Harrington was horrid during that game. He hurt the team. Not because of lack of effort but just because he couldn't buy a bucket & he kept trying to take them.

Jamaal started out very good but at the end of the 4th I thought he totally lost every bit of composure he has had all season so far. I saw way to much Mel-Mel the abuser there at the end who was doing nothing but trying to settle a score vs. Darko of all people. That Jamaal will lose a team game every time. I'm not saying he lost the game for us, I'm just saying when he does that (which he did at a very poor time) it totally shuts down our team game.

I thought Foster played well. In fact I thought Foster was our most consistant player on the floor all night long.

I think we have a real quandry at our wing man positions because of O'Neal & Harrington. In particular since O'Neal has demanded that we run more low post plays for him.

The problem for Danny is this. For this God awfull offense to work (I hate that offense with the passion of a white hot sun btw) one player, usually Jermaine, must go stand on one side of the post while the 4 other players must huver around the three point line. If you ever saw Houston run this back with Hakeem then you've seen how it's supposed to work.

The problem is this. Danny then becomes a three point threat, only. Now he can hit the three but he is so much more than just a three point shooter that it takes away from his overall game & actually decreases his value on the floor.

The same problem is there for Daniels but for a totally differant reason, Marquis is not a good three point shooter. Thus taking away his offensive strengths.

Notice how Daniels scroring has dropped in the starting unit? Well there is a reason for that.

The only person who works in this offense is Jackson becuase unlike Daniels he can hit this on occasion & unlike Granger he is not a rebounder.

Thus because Wilt jr. has insisted we must now go more often than we should to the old sludge offense.

But make no mistake it wasn't just this that cost us that game.

Like I said Al hurt the team, Jamaal killed any chance of a comeback & frankly the schedule worked against us on that one.

Now here is my only other real complaint.

At what point in time will we ever start using or seeing some of our big players that are just riding on the bench?

Seriously we have Danny, Quis, Rawle & Jackson who are all close to the same size & all have similar games.

Do you realize that we do not have one real center who plays in games for us.

Foster & O'Neal are both power forwards & Al was a small forward.

Now by all rights J.O. should be a center & Al has grown enough to be a power forward. But neither fit the bill.

I think down towards the end there you were seeing some of the fatigue set in on the big guys & I wonder if maybe a few min. of Josh Powell wouldn't have been a nice idea.

Or how about activating Baston & putting Greene back on the I.L. if we aren't going to use him. Do we really need 4 p.g. activated?

Is big Z playing? If so I wonder how we are planning on stopping that? Drew Gooden also will be a problem.

Oh well like I said schedule I think caught up to us.

Pitons
11-24-2006, 07:42 AM
One word about Saras' turnovers.

Even in Euroleague 2004-2005 season he has made 1 turnover every 10,5 minutes (4,5 in 48 min) and his A/To ratio was 1,76.
2005-2006 NBA season he has made 3,57 To in 48 min (every 13,44 min). His A/To ratio was 1,93.
This season 5,5 To in 48 min (every 8,7 min), his A/To ratio - 1,21.

So last season these stats were better than in Euroleague. This season - worse, but only 12 games.

I can't understand why people are complaining so much on that. He was a turnover prone and didn't have a very good A/To ratio even in Europe.

Quis
11-24-2006, 03:48 PM
Hilarious. Al had a Jack-like shooting performance and gets criticism from you. :laugh:

I agree completely. What we saw from Al on Wednesday was Jackson-esque. The difference is, Al's poor shooting nights are extremely rare, most nights he's unstoppable on offense, where this is a near every game thing for Jackson.


If we replaced Jackson with a shooting guard that gave us nothing the team would be better off. Because while said SG would give us nothing, nothing is still more than the negative impact Stephen Jackson makes every single game.

Quis
11-24-2006, 03:50 PM
One word about Saras' turnovers.

Even in Euroleague 2004-2005 season he has made 1 turnover every 10,5 minutes (4,5 in 48 min) and his A/To ratio was 1,76.
2005-2006 NBA season he has made 3,57 To in 48 min (every 13,44 min). His A/To ratio was 1,93.
This season 5,5 To in 48 min (every 8,7 min), his A/To ratio - 1,21.

So last season these stats were better than in Euroleague. This season - worse, but only 12 games.

I can't understand why people are complaining so much on that. He was a turnover prone and didn't have a very good A/To ratio even in Europe.

He was billed as a great point guard, capable of stealing the starting spot from Tinsley. What we've got is a guy who, truth be told, isn't anywhere near NBA caliber and should still be over in the minor leagues of Europe.

Pitons
11-24-2006, 06:05 PM
If we replaced Jackson with a shooting guard that gave us nothing the team would be better off. Because while said SG would give us nothing, nothing is still more than the negative impact Stephen Jackson makes every single game.

Will you ever wake up?

Quis
11-24-2006, 06:30 PM
Will you ever wake up?

Instead of making random trolling comments, why don't you actually use your brain and debate anything I said?

Pitons
11-24-2006, 06:48 PM
Instead of making random trolling comments, why don't you actually use your brain and debate anything I said?

You claim Jax gave us nothing and you want to debate?
Better write how your Quis is 1000 times better than Jax again.

That's your debate.

And you call me troll? lol

I just want to say you to see the reality not express your dreams.

Quis
11-24-2006, 07:10 PM
Care to explain how shooting 35% from the field with 2 turnovers a game helps the team?

4-12 <--- thats Jacksons average shooting night through 12 games. That is utterly terrible. Your players, especially your starters, should help the team, not hurt it. And no matter what spin some of the Jackson apologists try to put on the situation, the truth is Stephen Jackson is hurting the team and its hurting it badly.

8 misses per game + 2 turnovers per game = 10(!!!) possessions Jacksons giving away on average each game. That is plain terrible. I don't care if he's averaging 3 assist per game, thats not nearly enough positive to make up for all the negatives he brings.

Pitons
11-24-2006, 07:22 PM
Care to explain how shooting 35% from the field with 2 turnovers a game helps the team?

4-12 <--- thats Jacksons average shooting night through 12 games. That is utterly terrible. Your players, especially your starters, should help the team, not hurt it. And no matter what spin some of the Jackson apologists try to put on the situation, the truth is Stephen Jackson is hurting the team and its hurting it badly.

8 misses per game + 2 turnovers per game = 10(!!!) possessions Jacksons giving away on average each game. That is plain terrible. I don't care if he's averaging 3 assist per game, thats not nearly enough positive to make up for all the negatives he brings.

Quis does 3.48 Turnovers per 48 min, Jax - 2.91 per 48 min.
35,2 % shooting isn't so bad for him and it's getting better. He's a good defender, can make assist. His +/- ratio is good.

You see only negatives on his game and judge him as a bad player.

And what player you see better than Jax who should play instead of him? I feel I know the answer.

ajbry
11-24-2006, 07:23 PM
Quis, you are straight-up delusional. You add nothing to these forums, and you only bring negativity. Please do all of us a favor and conduct your ridiculous discussions elsewhere. You are hijacking every thread and nobody is enjoying your bizarre input.

Quis
11-24-2006, 07:57 PM
Quis does 3.48 Turnovers per 48 min, Jax - 2.91 per 48 min.
35,2 % shooting isn't so bad for him and it's getting better. He's a good defender, can make assist. His +/- ratio is good.

You see only negatives on his game and judge him as a bad player.

And what player you see better than Jax who should play instead of him? I feel I know the answer.


Quis does 3.48 Turnovers per 48 min, Jax - 2.91 per 48 min.
35,2 % shooting isn't so bad for him and it's getting better. He's a good defender, can make assist. His +/- ratio is good.

You see only negatives on his game and judge him as a bad player.

And what player you see better than Jax who should play instead of him? I feel I know the answer.


Stephen Jackson's Postivie Attributes
3.4 assists per game, a whopping .6 above league average
1.5 steals per game is solid, although judging a players defense by spg is asinine
When he plays hard and smart, he can be considered an average defender
Stephen Jackson's Negative Attributes
Shooting 35% from the field, beyond horrible
Shooting 22% from downtown, beyond horrible
Only gets to the line 3 times per game, utterly pathetic
On the rare occasion that he does get to the line, he's hitting only 72%, amongst the lowest in the league for a 2-guard.
Nearly 2 turnovers per game
A whopping 2.7 rebounds per game, Dwight Howard eat your heart out!

As you can see, Stephen Jackson's negative attrbiutes not only outnumber his positive attributes, but they're far more vital to the teams success, or lack there of in this case. IE; shooting 35% makes a bigger negative impact than dishing out 3.4 assists makes a positive impact.

Pitons
11-24-2006, 08:05 PM
Stephen Jackson's Postivie Attributes
3.4 assists per game, a whopping .6 above league average
1.5 steals per game is solid, although judging a players defense by spg is asinine
When he plays hard and smart, he can be considered an average defenderStephen Jackson's Negative Attributes
Shooting 35% from the field, beyond horrible
Shooting 22% from downtown, beyond horrible
Only gets to the line 3 times per game, utterly pathetic
On the rare occasion that he does get to the line, he's hitting only 72%, amongst the lowest in the league for a 2-guard.
Nearly 2 turnovers per game
A whopping 2.7 rebounds per game, Dwight Howard eat your heart out!

As you can see, Stephen Jackson's negative attrbiutes not only outnumber his positive attributes, but they're far more vital to the teams success, or lack there of in this case. IE; shooting 35% makes a bigger negative impact than dishing out 3.4 assists makes a positive impact.

Yes, maybe he's not the best out there, but what you suggest in his place?

Quis
11-24-2006, 08:20 PM
Yes, maybe he's not the best out there, but what you suggest in his place?

Marquis Daniels, who's a far superior talent. And Pacers management also feel Quis is the far better talent, hence why he's now the starter. That was their plan all along.

Pitons
11-24-2006, 08:22 PM
Marquis Daniels, who's a far superior talent. And Pacers management also feel Quis is the far better talent, hence why he's now the starter. That was their plan all along.

Surprise surprise :)

BlueNGold
11-24-2006, 08:34 PM
Marquis Daniels, who's a far superior talent. And Pacers management also feel Quis is the far better talent, hence why he's now the starter. That was their plan all along.

I like Quis too. At the same time, I dislike Jack. However, even I will admit that their talent-level is similar. Above average NBA players who can start on about 1/2 the teams in the league. I hope Quis shows he is clearly better than Jack, but thus far I have not seen it.