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Bball
11-21-2006, 01:59 PM
Struggling with new offense
Pacers slow to show consistency with their fast-paced plan

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

The Indiana Pacers would put the ball in point guard Jamaal Tinsley's hands and go. Stephen Jackson and Danny Granger would fill the lanes. Jermaine O'Neal would come down the middle trailing the fast break.

That was the plan, anyway. Score quickly. Score often.

The results have been mixed in the first 10 games, forcing coach Rick Carlisle to pull out his trusty blue card and call out plays.

"When you struggle a little more on offense, a good coach is going to do that," O'Neal said after practice Monday. "He's going to take control of the offense a little bit. He hasn't gotten to the point where he's calling every play. He takes certain situations and calls certain plays."

Tinsley said it's no secret why the Pacers haven't found their stride. "It's hard to run when you're taking the ball out of the basket," he said. "That's a big problem for us."

Tinsley forgot to mention protecting the ball and rebounding.
The Pacers want to top 100 points a game. They're averaging 94.8 -- less than a point (93.9) more than last season when they ran predictable half-court sets through O'Neal in the post. The Pacers are averaging 13.9 fast-break points a game, compared to 16.0 for their opponents. Tinsley said they want to average around 20.

"We haven't been able to get in to our transition offense because we haven't been able to stop anybody," O'Neal said. "We've struggled with the offense. We've turned the ball over quite a bit. We just haven't been running the way we really want to run."

The Pacers are averaging 101.4 points in their five victories and 13 points fewer in their five losses. They've outrebounded their opponents by 35 in their victories and been outrebounded by 51 in their losses.

Carlisle said he charted the New Jersey game and found the Pacers wasted 10 of 15 transition opportunities in the first quarter alone.

"It makes it very hard (to run) if you can't make stops and get rebounds," Carlisle said. "When you waste two-thirds of those possessions and don't get into something great, it's putting you behind the eight-ball as far as getting off to a great start."

Their transition to a transition team likely will continue to be a work in progress because O'Neal has made more of a concerted effort the past two games to dominate the post. The Pacers need that low-post presence to be successful, but they want to avoid standing around after giving O'Neal the ball.

"We want to have a balance," Carlisle said. "We won't want it to where we're going to him every time. We have a lot of other good players. At the same time, we need to utilize our best player.

"We want to be able to go from a situation where we're pushing it and don't have a great shot to execution of some of our early-offense options that we have. Either get the ball inside to Jermaine or get the ball to one of our perimeter guys off movement and screening."

CableKC
11-21-2006, 02:06 PM
I wonder if this was a decision made by Carlisle, Bird, TPTB or all of them :shrug:

Bball
11-21-2006, 02:15 PM
I wonder if this was a decision made by Carlisle, Bird, TPTB or all of them :shrug:

Or JO....

-Bball

Isaac
11-21-2006, 02:22 PM
Let's hope this doesn't make Jamaal start missing games with his famous sinus infections.

ALF68
11-21-2006, 02:26 PM
I wonder if this was a decision made by Carlisle, Bird, TPTB or all of them :shrug:
I would say that the teams erratic play had a lot to do with this decision and Rick made the call.

CableKC
11-21-2006, 02:27 PM
Struggling with new offense
Pacers slow to show consistency with their fast-paced plan

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

The Indiana Pacers would put the ball in point guard Jamaal Tinsley's hands and go. Stephen Jackson and Danny Granger would fill the lanes. Jermaine O'Neal would come down the middle trailing the fast break.

That was the plan, anyway. Score quickly. Score often.

The results have been mixed in the first 10 games, forcing coach Rick Carlisle to pull out his trusty blue card and call out plays.

"When you struggle a little more on offense, a good coach is going to do that," O'Neal said after practice Monday. "He's going to take control of the offense a little bit. He hasn't gotten to the point where he's calling every play. He takes certain situations and calls certain plays."

Tinsley said it's no secret why the Pacers haven't found their stride. "It's hard to run when you're taking the ball out of the basket," he said. "That's a big problem for us."

Tinsley forgot to mention protecting the ball and rebounding.
The Pacers want to top 100 points a game. They're averaging 94.8 -- less than a point (93.9) more than last season when they ran predictable half-court sets through O'Neal in the post. The Pacers are averaging 13.9 fast-break points a game, compared to 16.0 for their opponents. Tinsley said they want to average around 20.

"We haven't been able to get in to our transition offense because we haven't been able to stop anybody," O'Neal said. "We've struggled with the offense. We've turned the ball over quite a bit. We just haven't been running the way we really want to run."

The Pacers are averaging 101.4 points in their five victories and 13 points fewer in their five losses. They've outrebounded their opponents by 35 in their victories and been outrebounded by 51 in their losses.

Carlisle said he charted the New Jersey game and found the Pacers wasted 10 of 15 transition opportunities in the first quarter alone.

"It makes it very hard (to run) if you can't make stops and get rebounds," Carlisle said. "When you waste two-thirds of those possessions and don't get into something great, it's putting you behind the eight-ball as far as getting off to a great start."

Their transition to a transition team likely will continue to be a work in progress because O'Neal has made more of a concerted effort the past two games to dominate the post. The Pacers need that low-post presence to be successful, but they want to avoid standing around after giving O'Neal the ball.

"We want to have a balance," Carlisle said. "We won't want it to where we're going to him every time. We have a lot of other good players. At the same time, we need to utilize our best player.

"We want to be able to go from a situation where we're pushing it and don't have a great shot to execution of some of our early-offense options that we have. Either get the ball inside to Jermaine or get the ball to one of our perimeter guys off movement and screening."
When we don't make shots....which is more likely to happen against defensive minded teams like the Nets or Bulls....we need the rebounders in to help pick up ths slack....we don't need more scorers on the floor.

When the opposing team starts clamping down on us defensively, I think that if Carlisle is able to recognize this and adjust the rotation ( during the course of the game ) by putting in more rebounding / defending role-players ( like Foster, Powell and Baston ), then we would be able to stay in games longer. I think it will make a difference in the long run since it will keep us in games longer.

McKeyFan
11-21-2006, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=CableKC;505918]The Pacers are averaging 101.4 points in their five victories and 13 points fewer in their five losses. They've outrebounded their opponents by 35 in their victories and been outrebounded by 51 in their losses./QUOTE]

Check this out: After running a complex statistical comparison report, I discovered that in the games the Pacers won, they scored more points than their opponents.

imawhat
11-21-2006, 02:40 PM
Just another misleading title article.

The plan is still the same, according to Rick on his show. Of course more plays will be called when the careless turnovers are frequent, but that's a fragment of the game, not the game itself or a general philosophy.

Bball
11-21-2006, 02:43 PM
This will (should) get JO more touches and where he wants them. Any coincidence (after his talk with the coaches and management)?

In any case... for whatever reason... at the first signs of trouble we're going back to 'same ol, same ol' it sounds like. At least we are on that path. Trying to scrape together wins at the sacrifice of the 'vision' of what this team is supposed to be is pointless. But then, do we have a vision or will we throw spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks in an attempt to reach the holy grail- the playoffs! ?

-Bball

Pitons
11-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Check this out: After running a complex statistical comparison report, I discovered that in the games the Pacers won, they scored more points than their opponents.

Outstanding discovery. I always thought it's not necessarily to score more than opponents to win. :whoknows:

You would be my first candidate to win Nobel prize for sports discovery nomination. ;)

Isaac
11-21-2006, 03:10 PM
Outstanding discovery. I always thought it's not necessarily to score more than opponents to win. :whoknows:

You would be my first candidate to win Nobel prize for sports discovery nomination. ;)

He was making a joke. I can't tell if you knew that or not. :)

ChicagoJ
11-21-2006, 03:52 PM
I'm so happy with this latest development. Whoopee!!

Ugh.

:banghead:

Kegboy
11-21-2006, 04:05 PM
Seriously, did anybody not see this coming from the beginning?

Just
11-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Oh, goody.

Fool
11-21-2006, 04:11 PM
Who had "10 games" in the pool?

ajbry
11-21-2006, 04:36 PM
Who had "10 games" in the pool?

:laugh:

Trader Joe
11-21-2006, 04:40 PM
T-Minus three games til Tinsley's first "sinus" problem.

Unclebuck
11-21-2006, 06:08 PM
Just another misleading title article.

The plan is still the same, according to Rick on his show. Of course more plays will be called when the careless turnovers are frequent, but that's a fragment of the game, not the game itself or a general philosophy.

That is correct.


But I find it comical how everyone in this forum is jumping the gun and suggesting oh no, Rick is going to call all the plays - well that is not what the article suggests and that is not what Rick wants. But many on here almost want it to be true so they can say, "see I told you so"

Slick Pinkham
11-21-2006, 06:36 PM
A fast-paced offense needs a good defense to create the transition opportunities. We are just not built that way and never will be until undergoing a personnel overhaul in the backcourt.

Or play Quis and Green and hope they can cut it offensively some day.

imawhat
11-21-2006, 06:44 PM
A fast-paced offense needs a good defense to create the transition opportunities. We are just not built that way and never will be until undergoing a personnel overhaul in the backcourt.

Or play Quis and Green and hope they can cut it offensively some day.


We'll never be a fast-paced offense, but we can have a team that plays transition basketball, even in the current form.


I think we need to work on our spacing during fast breaks. I'd say we're losing an average of 6-8 points/game just because we aren't spacing well. The opportunities are there and we're missing them. Conversions would kick us back up to 100+ points/game.

Having Marquis Daniels in the starting lineup will help with that. As much as I like Stephen's game, he has to be one of the worst transition players in the game. Daniels is really good in transition though. And, for what it's worth, I think playing in transition is something that Stephen could still learn.

Isaac
11-21-2006, 06:48 PM
T-Minus three games til Tinsley's first "sinus" problem.

Joke stealer. :(

Unclebuck
11-21-2006, 11:21 PM
The more I think of about it the madder I get. Please show me the quote where it says that Rick is going to be calling more plays. Is there a direct quote from Rick to that effect.

Tonight Rick probably called fewer than 5 plays.

TheDon
11-21-2006, 11:40 PM
When we started with the whole idea that we wanna be a fast paced team and saying we wanted to play like Phoenix, I thought that was a pretty doomed idea and overall yeah it fills the seats when people are throwing it up for alley-oops and it's fun to watch the opposing team get burned on the fast break. The thing is though it always seemed to me like a giant PR movement and Phoenix has been the conference finals and never past that and they have the league MVP. We've been there and done that(conference finals and lost) so why try to put ourselves in that position. I've always been more in favor of playing a game more close to what Dallas does and since we got half of their team in the offseason hahaha it shouldn't be too hard, and Dallas has been to the NBA finals recently and despite a horribly officiated NBA Finals I believe should have won that matchup. I think Rick calling some things when things get a little hectic is a good idea, but for the most part is still giving the players a chance for the better part of a game.

Bball
11-22-2006, 12:09 AM
The more I think of about it the madder I get. Please show me the quote where it says that Rick is going to be calling more plays. Is there a direct quote from Rick to that effect.

Tonight Rick probably called fewer than 5 plays.

You are correct, UB... Carlisle himself doesn't say that.

-Bball

Naptown_Seth
11-22-2006, 12:35 AM
Let's hope this doesn't make Jamaal start missing games with his famous sinus infections.
As an infamous Tinsley defender let me say "who cares if he's playing like he has been?"

The PG play has not warranted free reign and extra responsibility. For a Jack TO discussion I just ran the TO/48 numbers and Tins and Cabbages are in the top 15 in the East when it comes to turning it over right now.

You can't have your PGs losing possessions at that high a rate, at least if they aren't your primary scorers (ie, in traffic and defended/doubled on shot attempts often).

Rick has been very open about disliking bad possession efficiency. In fact...

Carlisle said he charted the New Jersey game and found the Pacers wasted 10 of 15 transition opportunities in the first quarter alone.
...makes the point once again. He has been willing to go up tempo as a STYLE, but that doesn't mean you get to play lazy transition defense or get careless with the ball. A slight bump in those areas is natural, but so far the team has been a lot more confused looking on offense than even late last season.

And to further verify that this is what RC is thinking...

"We want to be able to go from a situation where we're pushing it and don't have a great shot (in)to execution of some of our early-offense options that we have. Either get the ball inside to Jermaine or get the ball to one of our perimeter guys off movement and screening."
EARLY OPTIONS. Not the same as fun and gun. Rick is never going to abandon having a strong offensive structure because that's how winning coaches get it done. They've just changed how and when they set up sets off of transition or even after makes. And right now the team isn't sticking with that enough or isn't executing it very well.



Along the lines of Buck and a few others, the thread title and several of the reactions here are WAY off base compared to the article itself. Hand it to JO btw, he aired out his issue IN THE OFFICE (ie, butt out Mike) and Rick listened to what he had to say. Since then we have 2 wins and 2 strong games from JO.

Hopefully these further tweeks will have similar impacts. It sounds like learning and adjustment to me. If these comments and problems were coming in March, then we'd have reason to be :confused:.

Bball
11-22-2006, 12:45 AM
I didn't see anything in tonight's game that concerned me about slipping back into the rut of play calling of the past.

I did fall asleep in the first half tho. :sad:

-Bball

Naptown_Seth
11-22-2006, 12:59 AM
BTW, this is what I said in the T-Bird lineup changes thread before the RC article...

The running game has been iffy because it's new to several guys, they force it at times, and honestly the last 2 years I had been saying they weren't very good in transition offense. They have struggled to space their breaks. Last night they had another where they got the score after a ball fumbling awkward toss back bounced to Tinsley who hit a standing still baby hook...not a layup coming off the run. ie, ugly.
I want to be a great basketball player, I am a terrible basketball player. Want != Am

They want to run and get early scores, but can they actually learn to do it? I guess we will find out. If they do that's great, but it might just be that they have to return to something they do better before the season's up.

imawhat
11-22-2006, 03:39 PM
They want to run and get early scores, but can they actually learn to do it? I guess we will find out. If they do that's great, but it might just be that they have to return to something they do better before the season's up.


Just an observation, but I think there are two main problems right now.

1). We're not spacing the floor well in transition. I'd like to see someone line up at the 3-point line when we have at least three people running. This would at least make the defense *think* about going out to defend. I think it's something that can be learned very easily.

2). We don't have a clear-cut finisher. I remember how the Knicks used to come out on breaks. It'd be a 100% sure thing when Sprewell had a chance to finish. Our guys look almost reluctant to take the shot once they get down there, and that's why things look ugly. Danny Granger and Marquis Daniels have been the only players so far who looks confident to finish on a fast break. Even Jamaal and Jermaine look reluctant, which is odd for them. Maybe moving Daniels into the starting lineup will help with that.

Evan_The_Dude
11-22-2006, 04:46 PM
The best finisher on this team is Rawle Marshall, no contest. Daniels is a very close second.

Naptown_Seth
11-24-2006, 02:44 AM
I agree with both posts. I was only at Star last year, but the transition spacing has been a big complaint from me for the last few years. I was hoping it would be better this year, and perhaps it has somewhat, but it's still problematic for sure.

Lanes are too tight and too often there is no vertical depth (length of court) at all. They don't leave themselves good passing lanes and they make it way too easy to defend.

They don't have a finisher yet, I agree, and I also thought Rawle was by far the best transition breakout guy during preseason. He has the reaction time and speed for it. It shows in his half court game as well. He gets stronger when he gets closer to the rim, though he often draws the foul instead.

He's still got weakspots but I don't think his PT is just a message from RC or foul issues. There are things he can do better than most of the other guys (or even any of them at all).

Kestas
11-24-2006, 05:24 AM
was too lazy to read it to the end.. I doubt this will save the team. I mean, Carlisle always called plays in the past (according to my friends on this board at least). so no news = no changes. this was too predictable, really. and bw, Saras (mentioning him only because he's my guy - not because he could save the team at this point) will go on with his 6 pts average and a negative TO/Assists rating, unfortunatelly. I hope I'm wrong though, but .. and I believe his chances of being traded or released are increasing by the day now. or we will see the coach change (?).