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Quis
11-16-2006, 04:15 AM
Is replacing Stephen Jackson with Marquis Daniels in the starting lineup. Marquis is unquestionably the far better talent, and thus should be getting more minutes. This team needs a slasher not a jump shooter, and slashing just so happens to be Quis's specialty. He'll also give us better rebounding and defense and less turnovers. Could we use any of those? ;) Rick needs to send Jackson's 30% shooting, 2.9 rebounds per game *** to the bench.

D-BONE
11-16-2006, 06:43 AM
Maybe at some point. Not at this point. I do not believe Jackson's play has hurt the team this year. Actually, Boston was Quis's first good game of the year IMO.

I think the team's difficulties go far beyond just Jackson in the starting lineup or not. If Quis plays consistently like he did in Beantown then there is an argument. It might be that we need to play both simultaneously more.

Quis
11-16-2006, 11:28 AM
That Stephen Jackson does far more harm than good to our beloved Pacers?
He's extremely inefficient on offense
He has a horrible shot selection
He plays average at best defense
He's turnover prone
He's a poor rebounder
He doesn't get to the free throw line enough
He takes shot attempts away from Granger and JO
He argues with officials
He fights with fans, both physically and verbally
He gets into trouble with the lawWhat does he do good? Honestly, can someone tell me three measly things Stephen Jackson does above average? Shoot? Rebound? Defend? Penetrate? Pass? No. No. No. No. No. Please Pacers management, do what's long overdue - either trade Stephen Jackson for next to nothing or bring him off the bench for 20-25 minutes a game.

mildlysane
11-16-2006, 11:29 AM
To come off the bench is why he came here....To come off the bench is where he should stay.

Unclebuck
11-16-2006, 11:33 AM
His defense this season has been excellent.

Suaveness
11-16-2006, 11:34 AM
He's actually one of the few I've been somewhat impressed with

esabyrn333
11-16-2006, 11:38 AM
I personally would love to see Quis start over Jax. I would love to see Jax gone.

Quis
11-16-2006, 11:41 AM
His defense this season has been excellent.

Sorry, but I don't believe this comment in the least bit. I believe it was only made as a last ditch effort to defend Stephen Jackson, you had nothing else to go with, and you knew good defense is hard to prove or disprove. From what I've seen, Jackson's defense has been it's same old average-at-best self. He gets lit up like a Christmas tree on a game-by-game basis.
He's actually one of the few I've been somewhat impressed with

Are you serious? What have you been impressed with? His 30% shooting? His 2.9 rebounds per game? The way he let Wally Szczerbiak abuse him?

Mac_Daddy
11-16-2006, 11:49 AM
Sorry, but I don't believe this comment in the least bit. I believe it was only made as a last ditch effort to defend Stephen Jackson, you had nothing else to go with, and you knew good defense is hard to prove or disprove. From what I've seen, Jackson's defense has been it's same old average-at-best self. He gets lit up like a Christmas tree on a game-by-game basis.

Are you serious? What have you been impressed with? His 30% shooting? His 2.9 rebounds per game? The way he let Wally Szczerbiak abuse him?


You are obviously a little biased when it comes to this topic.

Jackson, while not playing great, has not been that bad at all so far this season. Everyone on the team is fluctuating in their performance night after night.

I'm guessing that you really want Quis to start?

Aw Heck
11-16-2006, 11:53 AM
Oh boy, this thread is going to turn ugly...

I am not a Stephen Jackson fan, but I've actually liked the way he's played so far this season.

The Stephen Jackson I don't like is the one that takes bad shots out of the offense (which he misses) and whines at the refs instead of getting back on defense. This is the type of play that gets him booed.

The Jack I've seen this season has been playing good defense. He's also been doing a good job of driving and dishing (take a look at some of his assist numbers this season). Sure, he still takes some bad shots, but not nearly as much as he did last season. And yeah, Jack didn't play great defense last night. But the whole TEAM looked bad. I don't think putting Quis in the starting lineup would've changed the outcome last night.

I think Jack is fine being in the starting lineup, although I wouldn't mind experimenting with Marquis, just to see how he does. But I think we'll see the Jack we don't like if he comes off the bench (more shots, and probably bad shots more often than not).

Will Galen
11-16-2006, 11:55 AM
That Stephen Jackson does far more harm than good to our beloved Pacers?
He's extremely inefficient on offense
He has a horrible shot selection
He plays average at best defense
He's turnover prone
He's a poor rebounder
He doesn't get to the free throw line enough
He takes shot attempts away from Granger and JO
He argues with officials
He fights with fans, both physically and verbally
He gets into trouble with the lawWhat does he do good? Honestly, can someone tell me three measly things Stephen Jackson does above average? Shoot? Rebound? Defend? Penetrate? Pass? No. No. No. No. No. Please Pacers management, do what's long overdue - either trade Stephen Jackson for next to nothing or bring him off the bench for 20-25 minutes a game.

All this and your chosen forum moniker prove you just want Quis to start. If he was as bad as you paint him you wouldn't want him playing 20-25 minutes a game. (grin)

My problem with it is it's a negative post tearing down a player. Why not post a positive post about Quis and how he should be starting? It would make your point just as well and make for better reading. JMO.

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2006, 12:05 PM
His defense has been very good so far. His assists are up. He works the baseline extremely well, definitely better than the average SG.

Right now Jack is 10th among "SGs" in APG, but ahead of him are guys that really are playing as PGs like Joe Johnson, Wade, Rondo, and Hinrich.

The non-PG types ahead of him are T-Mac, Ricky Davis, Iguodala, Vince Carter and Ginobili. His A/TO is a solid 1.88, enough for 13th on the SG list, and in the top 10 if you remove those PGs listed as SG.

He's currently FIRST among ESPN "SGs" in steals per game. 8th overall.


And this is how I get the rep of ignoring Jack's faults, simply because I respond to posts that are blatently wrong. You can't just throw out crap like "does he pass well? no" like its freaking fact and expect your opinion to be taken seriously, at least by me.

When you put in a bunch of stuff that looks wrong by stats, not just opinion, as reasons he needs to go, then I have to wonder if you are even watching the games. You certainly didn't bother to verify your rant with a quick stats check.

ALF68
11-16-2006, 12:08 PM
That Stephen Jackson does far more harm than good to our beloved Pacers?

He's extremely inefficient on offense
He has a horrible shot selection
He plays average at best defense
He's turnover prone
He's a poor rebounder
He doesn't get to the free throw line enough
He takes shot attempts away from Granger and JO
He argues with officials
He fights with fans, both physically and verbally
He gets into trouble with the lawWhat does he do good? Honestly, can someone tell me three measly things Stephen Jackson does above average? Shoot? Rebound? Defend? Penetrate? Pass? No. No. No. No. No. Please Pacers management, do what's long overdue - either trade Stephen Jackson for next to nothing or bring him off the bench for 20-25 minutes a game.
All you need to do is check out any of Seth's posts for your answer, for he is Jax's PR man.

rimock31
11-16-2006, 12:09 PM
I can admit it. Bottom line, i would love to see him get traded, but it ain't happening cuz no team is crazy enough except for maybe the Knicks

Quis
11-16-2006, 12:14 PM
More delusional ramblings from Naptown_Seth.

Jackson's not a good passer, sorry to burst your bubble. Your entire basis for him being a good passer is, through 8 games, he's averaging 4 assists per game? Are you serious? Do you even watch the games? He's averaging 4 assist per game based entirely on the fact that he dominates the ball on offense. When you have the ball in your hands as much as Jackson, you're bound to pick up an assist here and there. And you're judging his defense based on his steals per game? Tinsley is probably the best ball thief in the league, does that make him an All-Pro defender? No. How about instead, you look at how the man Jackson guards performs?

Jackson is harmful to the success of the Indiana Pacers no matter what any delusional sunshine brigadiers want to believe.

ALF68
11-16-2006, 12:16 PM
More delusional ramblings from Naptown_Seth.

Jackson's not a good passer, sorry to burst your bubble. Your entire basis for him being a good passer is, through 8 games, he's averaging 4 assists per game? Are you serious? Do you even watch the games? He's averaging 4 assist per game based entirely on the fact that he dominates the ball on offense. When you have the ball in your hands as much as Jackson, you're bound to pick up an assist here and there. And you're judging his defense based on his steals per game? Tinsley is probably the best ball thief in the league, does that make him an All-Pro defender? No. How about instead, you look at how the man Jackson guards performs?

Jackson is harmful to the success of the Indiana Pacers no matter what any delusional sunshine brigadiers want to believe.
Hell yes!

Quis
11-16-2006, 12:17 PM
All you need to do is check out any of Seth's posts for your answer, for he is Jax's PR man.

Sorry, I've been reading Seths posts since the hey day of the IndyStar, and I can assure you that he's wrong far often than hes right, and its mainly because of his delusions and refusal to accept reality. We'd all like Stephen Jackson to be this dynamic, pass-happy, defensive ace shooting guard Delusional_Seth makes him out to be, but that's just not the case nor will it ever be.

ALF68
11-16-2006, 12:23 PM
Sorry, I've been reading Seths posts since the hey day of the IndyStar, and I can assure you that he's wrong far often than hes right, and its mainly because of his delusions and refusal to accept reality. We'd all like Stephen Jackson to be this dynamic, pass-happy, defensive ace shooting guard Delusional_Seth makes him out to be, but that's just not the case nor will it ever be.
I agree with you totally, Seth's views Jax and Tins through rose colored glasses. The Pacers will never find any peace untill Jax is gone.

Mac_Daddy
11-16-2006, 12:24 PM
Sorry, I've been reading Seths posts since the hey day of the IndyStar, and I can assure you that he's wrong far often than hes right, and its mainly because of his delusions and refusal to accept reality. We'd all like Stephen Jackson to be this dynamic, pass-happy, defensive ace shooting guard Delusional_Seth makes him out to be, but that's just not the case nor will it ever be.

I think that is a little uncalled for. One could look at what you propose and call you delusional.

If anyone is delusional, its OJ Simpson.

ChicagoJ
11-16-2006, 12:37 PM
Let's stick with talking about the Pacers and not each other.

+ + + + + +

I'm one of Jack's biggest critics, and I always will be because I don't like ballhogging, streaky shooting, turnover prone SGs. Period.

But Jack has played much more "within the team game" this season. Sure, he's made some high profile bad plays, like the end of the Chicago game and his mini-meltdown last night.


Jackson's not a good passer, sorry to burst your bubble. Your entire basis for him being a good passer is, through 8 games, he's averaging 4 assists per game? Are you serious? Do you even watch the games? He's averaging 4 assist per game based entirely on the fact that he dominates the ball on offense. When you have the ball in your hands as much as Jackson, you're bound to pick up an assist here and there.

The truth is somewhere in the middle here, I think. First of all, I'd like nothing more than for Quis to start and SJax return to the bench where he belongs. He's NOT that good a player, period. But that's not the point.

The SJax we've seen over the past couple seasons had the ball just as much, with fewer assists, the same number of turnovers, and even more bad/ iladvised shots. Let's give him credit for realizing "I'm not 'the guy'" and passing the ball instead of forcing the entire team into his garbage shot selection and turnovers. That's the #1 thing the SJax critics want - we want SJax to defer to his teammates that are better. And he's doing exactly that.

I still want him on the bench (or traded, or whatever), but at least he's been much less-offensive to me this season, and I'll give him credit for that.

Speed
11-16-2006, 12:38 PM
He's been pretty complimentary player, his assists are up and his defense has been the best since he's been here. Kind of just fitting in where needed so far.

Last nights technical aside.

His shooting % is never gonna be good, but he'll shoot better than he has, he's not a pure shooter by any strectch.

I've been pretty happy with him, so far, imo.


BTW, it's all opinion why get so bent out of shape, Jeez, settle down.

Should I start a thread saying Yellow is a better color than Orange and get all ticked that some people like Orange better? :D

Shamboubou
11-16-2006, 01:03 PM
He's been pretty complimentary player, his assists are up and his defense has been the best since he's been here. Kind of just fitting in where needed so far.

Last nights technical aside.

His shooting % is never gonna be good, but he'll shoot better than he has, he's not a pure shooter by any strectch.

I've been pretty happy with him, so far, imo.


BTW, it's all opinion why get so bent out of shape, Jeez, settle down.

Should I start a thread saying Yellow is a better color than Orange and get all ticked that some people like Orange better? :D

I think the point he is trying to make is that what he brings to the table good doesn't come anywhere even close to what he brings to the table bad. You say he's not a pure shooter by any strectch, and I agree, so why has he taken the most 3 point attempts? 3rd most in FG attempts while shooting almost the worse FG percentage.

His defense has gotten better, and his assists are up. I dont mind Stephen when he doesn't have the ball, but whenever he gets the ball I'm just waiting for him to do something stupid with it.

FrenchConnection
11-16-2006, 01:21 PM
Please stop creating new threads on the same topic. I get the point and I agree with you, but it did not need two threads.

CableKC
11-16-2006, 01:22 PM
I know that there is more to the game then just the box score.....but SJax took ony 10 FGA and made 5 of them and turned the ball over 3 times while scoring 13 points ( not surprisingly as the 3rd option on the team ).

I didn't watch the game yesterday night....but what did SJax do that messed up the game for us?

Quis
11-16-2006, 01:51 PM
I know that there is more to the game then just the box score.....but SJax took ony 10 FGA and made 5 of them and turned the ball over 3 times while scoring 13 points ( not surprisingly as the 3rd option on the team ).

I didn't watch the game yesterday night....but what did SJax do that messed up the game for us?

You think this all over one game? Surely not. This is in regards to his entire Indiana Pacers career. Yet I will say, last night was probably Jacksons best scoring game of the year. He shot 50%! Thats a once in a blue moon occurrence right there. Still, he had 0 assists with 3 turnovers, only pulled down 3 rebounds, and made Paul Pierce look like Michael Jordan in the time he was guarding him. Granted Pierce is one of the leagues top scorers, but he had a significantly above average scoring game last night (32 on 11-19 shooting) thanks in no part to Jacksons "brilliant" defense.

ajbry
11-16-2006, 01:54 PM
Ah, yet another fanatic of a player (not the Pacers, apparently).

You picked a perfect time to join the action, though. Quis has his first good game of the year in a blowout, so you get the opportunity to praise him unconditionally while denouncing Jack as a player and a person.

Fireball Kid
11-16-2006, 02:00 PM
I'm all for Marquis starting at shooting guard, but only if the point guard is a good perimeter shooter. This is one of the reasons why I wished the Pacers would of gone after Delonte West because I think he and 'Quis together would of made a good backcourt defensively and offensively.

Isaac
11-16-2006, 02:02 PM
I'm all for Marquis starting at shooting guard, but only if the point guard is a good perimeter shooter. This is one of the reasons why I wished the Pacers would of gone after Delonte West because I think he and 'Quis together would of made a good backcourt defensively and offensively.

I wanted West, but the guy I really wanted was Marcus Banks. I think him and Quis would make a fantastic backcourt.

McKeyFan
11-16-2006, 02:03 PM
I'm a Jax "hater" for those who enjoy such labels.

However, I don't support replacing him with Quis because of Jax current performance. I admit, along others, that he has significantly improved.

However, I actually do support replacing him with Quis for this reason: we need a change, we need something different, we need new life.

While Jackson has improved (let's give credit where it's due), he still isn't that great and I cannot see how replacing him with Quis would significantly alter the team for the worse. But I can envision the possibility that--over a few games--we could see a significant improvement for the better.

Quis bring better defense, better playmaking, better assists, better decision-making.

What does Jax bring better? Maybe shooting. Maybe.

But if you pair Runi with Quis, there is once again the potential (that's the key word as I admit Saras is also streaky) of an outside threat accompanying Quis's many positive traits.

Danny also has the potential to be an outside threat.

Al can also be an outside threat.

DA can also stretch the offense.

While Jax can be an outside threat at times, his overall mentality is a liability, imo.

So, yes. Let Quis replace Jax. It's worth a try!

Alpolloloco
11-16-2006, 02:07 PM
GREAT!

I like a starting backcourt of Jasik and Quis. Maybe next game.

Speed
11-16-2006, 02:13 PM
I think he does shoot too many 3's too. He's not a pure shooter but he can hit it and he's a streaky shooter who could get hot. He's freaking a strong 6'8", I would like to see them call his number in the post more often. I'm not an apoligist at all for Jax, it's just my opinion, I think he's played quietly within the framework of the team offensively and played solid on the other team's 2 guard. I thought he chased Iverson all over against Phillie.

I just disagree, I think it's wrong that the Al trade was not very good too. I think that opinion is not even close to right.

The thing i think people always miss is the idea of the alternate present. I mean people gripe, complain, and sit on their high horse about whats wrong, not just in sports, but everything and you never see that alternate outcome, what if they wouldn't have signed AL, what if they didn't have Jax, you really don't know, but its easier to go OFF on whatever is happening. If Peyton had two horrible games dumbazz'z would be calling sports radio wanting to give Sorgi a shot. It's inevitable.

AesopRockOn
11-16-2006, 02:43 PM
Someone should delete this thread; there's nothing but trolling and negative bull****.

Something to think about: I don't get to watch the games ever because of where I'm at; I only have play by play, stats, and the opinions of the guys here who have watched the games. I defer to them b/c they see the action and have more knowledge about a particular game or player than i do b/c I can only look at the stats. Please don't base everything on stats b/c dirty guys like Bruce Bowen can put up nothing and still have a positive impact on the game for his team. That said, Jack has been split down the middle; not being much of a scorer himself but being a better team player. As far as I have read, there's no player that everyone is completely satisfied with and no player everyone is completely hating on although Jack, DH and Saras whether rightfully or not are heading towards that category.

That having been said, this is not the way we should be operating. All the newer people seem to do is talk **** and be negative. It's great if you say something positive about Quis or constructive about Tinsley but saying crap like one guy is sending our franchise to hell is both absurd and unwarranted. Keep your heads up and cheer for your team.

CableKC
11-16-2006, 03:10 PM
Someone should delete this thread; there's nothing but trolling and negative bull****.

Something to think about: I don't get to watch the games ever because of where I'm at; I only have play by play, stats, and the opinions of the guys here who have watched the games. I defer to them b/c they see the action and have more knowledge about a particular game or player than i do b/c I can only look at the stats. Please don't base everything on stats b/c dirty guys like Bruce Bowen can put up nothing and still have a positive impact on the game for his team. That said, Jack has been split down the middle; not being much of a scorer himself but being a better team player. As far as I have read, there's no player that everyone is completely satisfied with and no player everyone is completely hating on although Jack, DH and Saras whether rightfully or not are heading towards that category.

That having been said, this is not the way we should be operating. All the newer people seem to do is talk **** and be negative. It's great if you say something positive about Quis or constructive about Tinsley but saying crap like one guy is sending our franchise to hell is both absurd and unwarranted. Keep your heads up and cheer for your team.
Quis has a right to voice his opinion on any player.....SJax or Marquis....I'm just wondering why another thread has to be started about this subject. :shrug:

:3deadhors: :3deadhors : :3deadhors :

The only thing that most of the SJax detractors can admit ( since our last "SJax Hate" message thread ) is that he has tried to play more ( or less ) within the team concept and the 2006 versoin of SJax ( so far ) is much better ( in terms of trying to be more of a team player and not complaining as much ) then the previous versions that we saw in previous years.

Fireball Kid
11-16-2006, 03:19 PM
This place is slowly, slowly turning into IndyStar everyday.

I'm not much of a fan of Stephen Jackson. Infact, I was never a fan of Stephen Jackson when he was with the San Antonio Spurs. But I do not believe its appropriate to start a thread about bashing a certain because you want your favorite player to start.

And by the way, Marquis cannot be paired up with Tinsley in the backcourt because both of them are terrible long-range shooters.

Quis
11-16-2006, 03:42 PM
This place is slowly, slowly turning into IndyStar everyday.
And by the way, Marquis cannot be paired up with Tinsley in the backcourt because both of them are terrible long-range shooters.

That's nullified by the fact that both Danny Granger and Al Harrington are superb long range shooters.

lumber man
11-16-2006, 03:56 PM
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This place is slowly, slowly turning into IndyStar everyday.

I'm not much of a fan of Stephen Jackson. Infact, I was never a fan of Stephen Jackson when he was with the San Antonio Spurs. But I do not believe its appropriate to start a thread about bashing a certain because you want your favorite player to start.

And by the way, Marquis cannot be paired up with Tinsley in the backcourt because both of them are terrible long-range shooters.i was a lurker here for about a year before i became a member 4 or 5 months ago. up until recently, people always seemed courteous and respectful here (with the exception of 1 or 2 knuckleheads here and there). maybe it comes with this place getting more popular that we are gonna have some clashing personalities, but i wish more people would use more common decency.

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ChicagoJ
11-16-2006, 04:07 PM
I've combined the threads. Quis, you've apparently touched a nerve by starting two similar (yet different) threads in such a short period of time. Please try to be conscious of that, we call it "spamming."

Quis, in his defense, did not start a thread by saying,

"Stephen Jackson sucks." We ARE keeping a close eye on that type of post.

However, he pointed out some objective (and sometimes over-used :blush: ) flaws in SJax's game. This may have been "tearing him down" in a sense because there are plenty of negative things to find in a 4-3 team that just got blown out by a 1-6 team.

As we've said many times in the past, this is neither "Sunshiners Digest" nor "Darksiders Digest".

If you think Quis (or whomever) is being too negative, bring counterpoints (tell us what Daniels has done to deserve the starting spot, for example. Or join the handful of SJax defenders and point out what he's doing well.) That's far more constructive to PD than jumping all over Quis or equating PD to RATS just because a poster voiced an opinion.

We're not all going to agree (and this place would be very boring if we all did agree), but we all seem to want discussion. There was an opportunity for some of you to make counter-arguments above and you missed it.

Wu-Gambino
11-16-2006, 04:25 PM
That's nullified by the fact that both Danny Granger and Al Harrington are superb long range shooters.
I wouldn't call Harrington and Granger outside threats. They are both players who can get you one or two threes on three to five attempts. Besides, do you want to count on Harrington to shoot threes when we are already having enough problems rebounding?