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View Full Version : Bruce Bowen: Dirtiest Player in the Game? (video)



spreedom
11-16-2006, 12:33 AM
So I pointed and clicked whilst on YouTube, and ended up with this lovely Bruce Bowen compilation.. man I hate that guy.

Oops.. posted the wrong video. Bear with me.

spreedom
11-16-2006, 12:37 AM
Here's what I was looking for.. a few clips of Bowen intentionally hurting several "Bowen Killers," as I like to call them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPQkEsM8uM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI5pE2-bXkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLgHeeOZJFI

Eindar
11-16-2006, 12:41 AM
I think that title is still owned by Danny Fortson, but people stepping on Bowen's foot happens far too often for it to be coincidental.

aero
11-16-2006, 12:44 AM
yeah he plays dirty

rexnom
11-16-2006, 01:15 AM
That Vince Carter thing made me want to throw up.

spreedom
11-16-2006, 01:23 AM
The most aggravating part (aside from the obvious livelihood assassination attempts, if you'll allow me to phrase it that poorly) is the stupid "How can anyone think I did something wrong here?" look he gets on his face... that seems to pop up EVERY game. I think if any other player in the league was as physical as Bowen played say, Dirk Nowitzki in the WCSF this past postseason, they'd have fouled out in about 3 minutes.. MAN, do I hate Bowen's game..

Raskolnikov
11-16-2006, 01:48 AM
He should get a flagrant every time he plays his so-called foot defense.

Ron who?
11-16-2006, 01:49 AM
hes what Ron Artest would be if he had absolutely zero talent..

Hicks
11-16-2006, 07:00 AM
I've also seen a video where he runs to and jumps at Wally Szczerbiak who's taking an open shot, and KICKS HIM IN THE FACE. He's also had Ray Allen fall on his foot before too. The man's dirty.

Fool
11-16-2006, 09:34 AM
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/a/b/4/ab4b81c2d44c72d9af2a128a036a87ba.gif

http://www.boomspeed.com/ttango1/bowen_sonics.jpg

Bowen's not the only one to do it, but being associated with this guy for this reason doesn't exactly help his case.
http://www.fredhayes.com/photogallery/Karl%20Malone%20and%20Tim%20Duncan.jpg

(Just a note: I've talked about this subject more than once on SpursReport, which is why I have these so readily available.)

Skaut_Ech
11-16-2006, 10:31 AM
He's got the move perfected. He jumps late, makes sure his foot goes underneath his opponent as he turns his head the other way, as if he's doesn't see where his foot is going, then runs the other way soon as he feels contact.

What's amazing is that he can play for 35 minutes and put up a single assist, maybe three point an just a rebound or two.

CableKC
11-16-2006, 12:47 PM
All defensive minded players have always been called dirty players simply for their aggressive style of defense. When Artest was here....he was called a dirty player cuz of he knew how to use his strength to push and shove players around. Players like Raja Bell and Bowen are the same...but with not as strong as Artest is.

When we had Artest as a Pacer.....it was great to have a player like that on the team.....even now.....I don't think that its a bad thing....that's just the way it is with defensive stoppers.

BTW....I would still love to get a player like Bowen or Raja Bell that can be a defensive stopper while providing a decent 3pt threat on the offensive end.

SycamoreKen
11-16-2006, 12:53 PM
That Vince Carter thing made me want to throw up.

Yep you are right there. The obvious push off by Carter should have been called and the tangle up would have never happened. I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt anyone on purpose, but it is not safe so the leuge is cracking down on it. He got a call from S. Jackson on Sunday telling him the N.Y. incident should have been called a foul and to be more careful. The league has made giving the offensive player room to come down a point of emphasis. See more in the story below. I like T-Mac's and Van Gundy's quotes.

Spurs notebook: NBA warns Bowen to watch his step when he guards shooters

Web Posted: 11/15/2006 12:20 AM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

HOUSTON — When Bruce Bowen's phone rang Sunday afternoon, he didn't need to look at caller ID to know who was on the other end of the line: Stu Jackson, the NBA's executive vice president of basketball operations — otherwise known as the league's czar of discipline.
"With him," Bowen said, "I have a bat line."

Jackson told Bowen he wasn't going to be fined for last week's play involving New York's Steve Francis. But he told Bowen a foul should have been called and he warned Bowen to watch his feet in the future.

Francis sprained his left ankle when he landed on Bowen's foot. The incident drew greater attention when the teams played again Saturday and Knicks coach Isiah Thomas accused Bowen of stepping under players — a complaint Bowen has heard a handful of times in recent seasons.

The league has instructed officials this season to make sure players are allowed to "alight" or land after they shoot.

Jackson "said because of the things that have happened with me, I really need to be aware of the space I'm giving guys to come down," Bowen said. "I said, 'So, if they come down close to me, is that still an infraction on my behalf?' He said no, but it's a foul if they come down on top of you.

"I have no problem with that, but my only concern is if somebody comes close. What if somebody says, 'Owww!' Now do I get a foul?"

Houston coach Jeff Van Gundy said he doesn't think the plays in question were committed with malice.

"If he says that's unintentional, who am I to question him?" Van Gundy said. "Some players, any time a guy competes hard against him, the first word they use is 'dirty'. Because you know they don't want to put as much effort into the game as a guy who competes hard.

"John Stockton, I always heard, was dirty. And I thought he just out-competes people. You have the little whiners who are running for cover anytime the game gets tough."

Rockets guard Tracy McGrady also said he has never had a problem facing Bowen.

"I always accepted the challenge of going up against him because he is the best perimeter (defender) in this league," McGrady said.

Looking out for the big men: While the league has cracked down on perimeter contact by defenders, Van Gundy thinks something needs to be done about the punishment big men are taking under the basket.

He wasn't happy when a foul wasn't called after Rockets center Yao Ming was hit in the head Sunday in Miami.

"If we're really concerned about injury prevention," Van Gundy said, "I don't think 'alighting' is the only thing we should be concerned with. Full-force swings to the head are also something."

Thomas misquoted: During its investigation of Bowen and Thomas, the league determined the Knicks coach was misquoted by New York's Newsday newspaper when discussing how he would deal with a player who stepped under him.

The paper reported Thomas as saying, "I'd beat the (expletive) out of somebody. Really, I would (expletive) murder them." A league official, however, said transcripts showed Thomas to have said, "I'd beat the (expletive) out of somebody. That's (expletive) murder."


http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA111506.07C.BKNspurs.notebook.88b40e0.html


hes what Ron Artest would be if he had absolutely zero talent..

Artest has how many more rings than that no talent player? Bowen does what he is supposed to do and doesn't try to do more.

Moses
11-16-2006, 12:57 PM
Artest has how many more rings than that no talent player? Bowen does what he is supposed to do and doesn't try to do more.
Who cares? He's a thug.

Anyone that intentionally injures star players the way he's been doing for years and playing rediculous defense doesn't deserve any credit. He reminds me of people you play in pick-up games who suck at every facet of the game but are all over you on the defensive end to the point where you can't even step foward. It's just plain stupid and it's annoying.

SycamoreKen
11-16-2006, 01:10 PM
Who cares? He's a thug.

Anyone that intentionally injures star players the way he's been doing for years and playing rediculous defense doesn't deserve any credit. He reminds me of people you play in pick-up games who suck at every facet of the game but are all over you on the defensive end to the point where you can't even step foward. It's just plain stupid and it's annoying.

Besides Francis, who has he hurt defending? Carter? I'll take the opinions of Kobie and T-Mac over Carter and Allen any day. They don't complain about the way he defends and they are star players. Heck, Kobi even went to bat for him to be on Team USA. Umm, the NBA isn't a pickup game and his job is to play defense until it annoys the person he is guarding. Play d and hit the open jumper. That is what his job is. His mid-range game has improved and he has worked his butt off to stay in the league this long. I'd love to have him on the Pacers.

AesopRockOn
11-16-2006, 02:32 PM
There's no ****en doubt that Bowen is dirty; he should never win DPOY with his attitude towards defense and his opponent. And just because he doesn't severly injure a player doesn't mean that it's all good again. It's messed up how he tries to hide it too.

I also watched the Kobe owning Bowen video and I still have no idea how any person can deny that he's the best player in the game right now.


Yep you are right there. The obvious push off by Carter should have been called and the tangle up would have never happened. I don't think Bowen is trying to hurt anyone on purpose, but it is not safe so the leuge is cracking down on it.

Wtf are you talking about? Bowen hand checks like a mother****er; why would the league do anything about it if he weren't doing it on purpose? You're completely contradicting yourself.

Fool
11-16-2006, 02:35 PM
Besides Francis, who has he hurt defending?

There are a couple of pictures above in this thread, one of them moving, that might help you with that question.

As I said, I've had this discussion more than once and in general it gets broken down too simply: either everything he does is dirty because he's a dirty player or nothing he does is dirty because he's a great defender.

The problem is, too me, he's clearly both a great defender and a dirty player. Look at that youtube video of him guarding Carter. Bowen is playing him tight which is typical of his great defense. But continuously walking under jumpers, walking through and over Carter like you somehow didn't know the guy was under you even though half a second ago you were making sure you were in his grill, jumpkicking not one but two players in the face, kicking a player in the back while you are on the ground, all make it pretty clear that while he might not "be out to hurt someone" he doesn't care if he does hurt them and he takes actions that he knows might indeed hurt them.

Saying he's dirty doesn't mean he's not a great defender, just like saying he's a good defender doesn't mean he's not dirty.

BTW, I'm pretty sure using Kobe as a character witness isn't a good move.

SycamoreKen
11-16-2006, 03:04 PM
I saw the pics in the thread. I've seen Artest do the same thing against the Celtics as well. Of course, that is no defense either because Artest is just as bad as Bowen when it comes to doing thses things. I agree that stepping under players is a bad thing and maybe I am wrong when stating that I don't think he is trying to hurt someone. If I am then he needs to be run out of the league.

The stepping under aside, the other complaints about him are weak at best. Too much hand checking? Come on. He does goes as far as he can, just as everyone else in the league does. Some players, such as Carter and Allen, let it get to them and throw them off their game. Others such as Kobi and T-Mac take it as a challenge and take their game up another level. I remember that New Jersey game because I watched it. Carter was killing the Spurs the whole game. If he had just gotten up, laughed at Bowen and hit his freethrows then the Nets would have won. Instead he let Bowen get in his head, eventually got run, and the Nets lost. The fall looked worse than it was because they got tangled after Carter came down and their legs got tangled. If you watched the Carter video again, he pulled a Reggie and stuck his leg out so that it would get hit. Then he comes up complaining that they got tangled? He is soft mentally and let himself get taken out.

Of the videos posted, Frances's was the worst because he went straight up and Bowen moved under him. That is the play that should have been a foul, maybe even a flagrant. In the Crawford video, you can see that Crawford did not go stright up and down, but rather he drifted from outside the 3 point line and landed inside of it near Bowen's feet. If the guy goes stright up and down and he does it then he should be given a flagrant, no doubt about it. If the guy drifts or does a Reggie, as Carter did, well, its up to the ref.

To sum this up, what Bowen does is not safe and he shouldn't do it. I hope the league follows through in enforcing it on him and anyone else that does it as well.

Peck
11-16-2006, 03:57 PM
All defensive minded players have always been called dirty players simply for their aggressive style of defense. When Artest was here....he was called a dirty player cuz of he knew how to use his strength to push and shove players around. Players like Raja Bell and Bowen are the same...but with not as strong as Artest is.

When we had Artest as a Pacer.....it was great to have a player like that on the team.....even now.....I don't think that its a bad thing....that's just the way it is with defensive stoppers.

BTW....I would still love to get a player like Bowen or Raja Bell that can be a defensive stopper while providing a decent 3pt threat on the offensive end.

I strongly disagree with that statement.

Derrick McKey was never called dirty, I called him a lot of other things, but I never heard anyone call him dirty.

Same for Dale, Scottie Pippen, Sidney Moncrief, Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones.

Charles Oakley was a dirty player and so was Derrick Harper but.

Mamluk
11-16-2006, 04:06 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_19471.shtml

Nov 16, 2006, 15:00

Is Bruce Bowen a dirty player? Depends on who you ask. Isiah Thomas says yes, Jeff Van Gundy says no...but only Bowen knows for sure.


Feigen: Where There's Smoke, There's Fire

Bruce Bowen slid a foot too close to Steve Francis' and Isiah Thomas was livid.

Francis sprained an ankle and Thomas threatened to beat the (uh, stuffing) out of someone. When the Knicks met the Spurs a week later, he even got in an entertaining shouting match with Spurs coach Gregg Popovich.

Perhaps this is the "significant progress" Knicks boss James Dolan demanded of Thomas this season.

Normally, when things went wrong for the Knicks Thomas' reaction was to acquire a mediocre player with a ridiculous contract his previous team thought could never be moved.

The Pop-Zeke exchange made for more entertaining theater.

Thomas threatened to break Bowen's feet; maybe neck, depending on whom you believe.

Popovich shouted back the usual coaching demand the opposing coach not mutter a syllable in the direction of his player. Thomas barked back at Popovich.

It all happened with the background, though perhaps irrelevant, that Popovich is tight with Larry Brown, whom some thought got himself trapped in a lose-lose season of Thomas running the Knicks roughly the way he had the CBA.

Anyway, it all ended fairly harmlessly. The Spurs won. Thomas and Popovich shook hands. The NBA said something along the lines it will keep watching and that Bowen should not do it again, but would otherwise let Bowen's latest ankle spraining accident go, as long as Bowen does not wear his wristband too many inches away from his wrist.

Some questions, however, remained unanswered. Is Bowen dirty? Does he do it on purpose?

Days before the Pop-Zeke exchange, Thomas said he would not have needed the NBA's help when he was a player.

"I'd beat the (tar) out of somebody. I really would have," Thomas said. "In the NBA, when you're in the air, you're really exposed. There's a certain (code) since grade school. When the guy is up in the air, at any point you want to, you could take a guy out. There's certain things you don't do."

Thomas is not the first to threaten violence. Charles Barkley once promised to break a John Stockton rib the next time Stockton set what he considered a dirty screen. That drew the usual laughter, except from the Chuckster, who kept repeating that he was a serious as an elbow to the chin and fully intended to break one of Stockton's ribs.

Ray Allen and Vince Carter have previously accused Bowen of sticking a Nike beneath them during the jump part of their jump shots. Land on a foot, an ankle turns and a scorer begins a close, personal relationship with the trainer and his ice packs.

Some of this is in some ways a compliment to Bowen's defensive prowess. No one complains about Sam Cassell getting too close to their jump shots.

Before he gets a chance to be dirty, Bowen is just good.

"Bruce Bowen is a hard-playing guy," Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy said. "The specific plays, only he knows. If he says it's unintentional, who am I to question?

"Some players, any time a guy competes hard against him, the first word they use is 'dirty' because they don't want to put in as much effort into the game as the guy who competes hard. John Stockton, I always heard that: ‘He's dirty.' You got the little whiners who are running for cover any time the game gets tough.

"I'm not saying it's not a foul. That's what the NBA said, that's a foul. They use a great word: 'alight.' How about 'land’? You're supposed to be able to go up and land without somebody making contact with you. It's supposed to be called a foul. On the (Steve) Francis play, they didn't call a foul. It's on the officials. If a guy can't alight, let him alight."

Tracy McGrady said he has never had trouble landing or alighting against Bowen, though scoring has been a "challenge."

"He's never been that way with me," McGrady said. "I always love the challenge. I always accept the challenge of going up against him because he is the best perimeter (defensive) player in this league. As far as him being a dirty player, I haven't seen it.

"He has really quick hands. He's very smart. He has quick feet. He's one of those guys, if you think you're going to sit on the wing and just iso him, he's going to stay in front of you all day. You have to come off screens and you got to get him off your body because he's strong and he's good at using his hands and feet."

But the evidence is mounting. Math might say that when you are that sticky to that many shooters, the number of chances to be under their feet increases enough a few incidents doesn't prove anything.

That seems to make some sense; but then, it has always seemed to be the same guys whose elbows find chins. Karl Malone used to argue that his knee just happened to drive into that other guy's groin while he was in his usual motion trying to finish a fast break, just like all the other times.

So look at it this way: Bowen doesn't do it on purpose. He plays all kinds of Wrigley-identifying defense. He's there, in position, doing what has earned him a nice NBA career.

But he doesn't get his big feet out of the way, either. That's his responsibility, too, just as football players are not supposed to go helmet to helmet or take out each other's knees at the line of scrimmage.

Anyone who can stick that tight to Ray Allen or Vince Carter could slide his foot just a bit out of the way on their way down.

Either that or perhaps Thomas and Popovich could duke it out, if only to offer something more entertaining than a typical Knicks-Spurs game.

Hicks
11-16-2006, 04:31 PM
There are a couple of pictures above in this thread, one of them moving, that might help you with that question.

As I said, I've had this discussion more than once and in general it gets broken down too simply: either everything he does is dirty because he's a dirty player or nothing he does is dirty because he's a great defender.

The problem is, too me, he's clearly both a great defender and a dirty player. Look at that youtube video of him guarding Carter. Bowen is playing him tight which is typical of his great defense. But continuously walking under jumpers, walking through and over Carter like you somehow didn't know the guy was under you even though half a second ago you were making sure you were in his grill, jumpkicking not one but two players in the face, kicking a player in the back while you are on the ground, all make it pretty clear that while he might not "be out to hurt someone" he doesn't care if he does hurt them and he takes actions that he knows might indeed hurt them.

Saying he's dirty doesn't mean he's not a great defender, just like saying he's a good defender doesn't mean he's not dirty.

BTW, I'm pretty sure using Kobe as a character witness isn't a good move.

What an excellent post. :thumbsup:

8.9_seconds
11-16-2006, 06:03 PM
I Agree with Fool, he is both great and dirty.

Bowen is a great defensive player no matter how you slice it. If players want him to stop, they should stop whining and do something. That's not a very good soultion at all, but hey, fight fire with fire.

Trader Joe
11-17-2006, 03:08 AM
Bowen is a good defender, not great. I'd say what makes him "great" is the fear a lot of players have for him. Along with some great PR by Popovich. If Bowen wasn't a great defender what he would be? Probably considered one of the worst players in the NBA more than likely. Beyond that if the man has a record of sliding his foot coincidentally under a shooting player's foot how many players go full throttle at him? I'd say not that many. Like I said Bowen is good not great on D at least not talent wise. Is he smart like a fox on D? Absolutely. Does he get away with as much as any player in the NBA on the defensive end? Probably.

See to me the main difference between Bowen being dirty and Artest being dirty is Bowen is sneaky as hell about his dirty plays. Maybe he deserves kudos for that IDK. The reason I say this is for the most part I think Ron plays good, clean defense, but when he makes a dirty a play he makes a REALLY dirty play and allows his temper and emotion to get the best of him. Bowen on the other hand may make more dirty plays, but they won't be the throw someone out of bounds flagrant fouls that Ron makes.

Fool
11-17-2006, 09:16 AM
The guy can guard any 2 or 3 as well as big 1s and small 4s, which means there are only a few dominant scorers in the league that he doesn't guard. Before 2003, when he developed that corner 3, he had absolutely zero offensive game and still made the starting squad of a team that would win 2 championships. The guy's been on the all defensive team 6 years straight. If he's not great at defense then there's maybe 2 guys who you can consider great at defense in the league.

LoneGranger33
11-17-2006, 09:33 AM
Mamluk, is that a Ha Seung-jin AVATAR?!

Oh, yeah, right...ummm, Ryan Bowen is a dirty player, and so is Ron Murray too...they both thugs

sweabs
11-17-2006, 01:10 PM
Mamluk, is that a Ha Seung-jin AVATAR?!
I believe it's the one and only Arvydas Sabonis.

Moses
11-17-2006, 01:31 PM
I believe it's the one and only Arvydas Sabonis.
The legend of the foot injury lives on.

Quis
11-17-2006, 02:04 PM
It's his dirty tactics which make him a good defender. You take away the tricks, and you're left with arguably the least skilled non-big man in the game. So in that regard, I can't fault him. He's made a career and a lot of money off of being dirty. And for the record, Vince Carter had already dropped 43 on Bowen with nearly the entire 4th quarter remaining. The frustration of being **** on by Carter was too much for Bowen to handle, so he purposely tried to injure him, it's as simple as that. I'd suspend Bowen for the season without pay if it happened again.

ChicagoJ
11-17-2006, 02:18 PM
I was walking across the kitchen last night, and my St. Bernard was laying on the floor so I stepped over the top of him (yes, its a big step.)

He stretched, and then he slid his back paws under me as I walked.

I tried to avoid stepping on him and I said, "Bruce! Don't do that!" (My dog's name is not Bruce.)

Jay's_Daughter@Section19 then wanted to listen to "Waitin' on a Sunny Day".

It all ties together.

:shrug:

Vicious Tyrant
11-17-2006, 08:45 PM
Charles Oakley was a dirty player and so was Derrick Harper but.
Oh man....I speak from brutal personal experience when I agree with Peck that Derrick Harper has a dirty butt. Don't even get me started....

Hicks
11-18-2006, 09:40 AM
Oh man....I speak from brutal personal experience when I agree with Peck that Derrick Harper has a dirty butt. Don't even get me started....

*gets Vicious Tyrant started*

Man, that looks dirty in print. :zip: