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Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 03:53 PM
I don't think this should just be in the Celtics game thread or something since it goes beyond tonight.

They want Greene active, but someone has to sit tonight (or soon). Might be Armstrong with his minor tweek for tonight, but sometime soon a tough choice is going to hit the team.

Sarunas and Armstrong have both gotten off to nice starts, DA being the more consistant of course. What if DA sits to rest a minor injury and Greene really brings it? You could always put Powell or Marshall on the inactive, but how long can the team committ to 4 PGs, especially if they want them all to play?

I'm thrilled he's getting back. I'm not thrilled about the logjam the team apparently has at PG, last year it was only 3 and it was an issue. DA is a good guy, but really what fan wants to see HIM sit after his hot start?

<a href="http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/SPORTS04/611150432">Link to Star article by Mike Wells</a>

Anthem
11-15-2006, 03:55 PM
If Greene shows us something (anything), then I honestly think a Sarunas to the Raptors deal makes sense for both teams (as well as for Sarunas personally).

heywoode
11-15-2006, 04:10 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with Cabbage being 4th out of 4, but I sure would hate to move somebody after we had to let James White walk away...

Since that has already happened, I would probably say that Cabbage and Harrison are the two I wouldn't mind letting go of....

Hey, I HOPE we have a problem because Greene impresses whenever he does get to play....

pwee31
11-15-2006, 04:12 PM
I personally don't want to see Runi go, but I'm guessing he would be the front office/fans 1st choice, plus he would prolly have the most value of the guards. You could possibly even throw in Hulk since they play so well together?

But I personally want to keep Runi, of course I'm a big fan of his, but I'm a bigger fan of the Pacers, so if it'll beneift the team.. I can't complain

pwee31
11-15-2006, 04:13 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with Cabbage being 4th out of 4, but I sure would hate to move somebody after we had to let James White walk away...

Since that has already happened, I would probably say that Cabbage and Harrison are the two I wouldn't mind letting go of....

Hey, I HOPE we have a problem because Greene impresses whenever he does get to play....



Oops.. guess ya beat me to it! :D

LoneGranger33
11-15-2006, 04:15 PM
I personally don't want to see Runi go, but I'm guessing he would be the front office/fans 1st choice, plus he would prolly have the most value of the guards. You could possibly even throw in Hulk since they play so well together?

But I personally want to keep Runi, of course I'm a big fan of his, but I'm a bigger fan of the Pacers, so if it'll beneift the team.. I can't complain

I completely agree.

esabyrn333
11-15-2006, 04:27 PM
I personally would like to see Harrison stay around if I could make a call I would like to see Saras & Foster packaged for someone like Maglorie who is an expiring contract. I think the Foster hinders Harrisons development and if Harrison is moved we will regret it in the long run.

Unclebuck
11-15-2006, 04:30 PM
Saras shooting percentage through the first 7 games

FG - 31%
3Pt FG - 28%

The past three games he's shot 1 of 15. Does anyone else see a major problem there, especially considering he is supposed to be the best shooter on the team.

The number of things Saras can do well is getting very fewer and fewer

AesopRockOn
11-15-2006, 04:48 PM
Please don't take DA out of the lineup!!! :pray:

rimock31
11-15-2006, 04:50 PM
Man, I think Sarunas is the most harshly criticized player on the Pacers. The guy gets 4-5 shots a game playing out of position lately and is getting shat on because he's not hitting them. The bottom line is this guy needs consistent minutes, and was supposed to be getting them this season with AJ gone, which has never happened. Personally, i'd like to see him get 20 minutes a game backing up Tinsley for 10 consecutive games which is something that hasn't happened since we signed him.
Personally, I think people should be more worried about a guy like Jackson who shoots 4-14 consistently as opposed to someone who gets his shots in spurts and doesn't get a chance to find his rhythm.
I can't believe people would consider sitting him right now. Peoples expectations with regards to Armstrong are completely unrealistic. Sure, he's gotten off to a nice start but you gotta be kidding me if you think at his age he can do that for 82 games.
And what's the deal with Orien Greene? He was probably waived for a reason but he played 2 preseason games for us and suddenly people should be sitting in order ot make room for him. What has he proven?

LoneGranger33
11-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Saras shooting percentage through the first 7 games

FG - 31%
3Pt FG - 28%

The past three games he's shot 1 of 15. Does anyone else see a major problem there, especially considering he is supposed to be the best shooter on the team.

The number of things Saras can do well is getting very fewer and fewer

Wow, he's almost as bad as Stephen Jackson...but seriously (oh, sadly you're right, that was already serious), some people have slumps...especially in a new offense, give em time...

LoneGranger33
11-15-2006, 04:55 PM
And what's the deal with Orien Greene? He was probably waived for a reason but he played 2 preseason games for us and suddenly people should be sitting in order ot make room for him. What has he proven?

He was waived by the Boston Celtics dude, not some crap team like the Bobcats...Jesus Christ, you'd think people would do a little research before they run their mouths off...the Celtics don't play just anybody!



(Scalabrine...)

rimock31
11-15-2006, 05:05 PM
Really? Last time i checked the celtics haven't won a championship in over a decade so don't tell me they dont just play anybody....Aside from Paul Pierce and Wally their team consists mostly of guys who didn't live up to expectations.

LoneGranger33
11-15-2006, 05:09 PM
He was waived by the Boston Celtics dude, not some crap team like the Bobcats...Jesus Christ, you'd think people would do a little research before they run their mouths off...the Celtics don't play just anybody!



(Scalabrine...)

<TABLE cellSpacing=5><TBODY><TR><TD>sub&#183;tle&#183;ty http://img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif (javascript:play('S0855800')) (shttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifl-thttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif) n. pl. sub&#183;tle&#183;ties 1. The quality or state of being subtle.
2. Something subtle, especially a nicety of thought or a fine distinction.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


But Seriously Folks...is a good album by Joe Walsh
Now that I finally got that one out of my system - As a student here at Boston College (which is, surprisingly enough, not in the city of Boston), I've had numerous opportunities to see Orien Greene in action...He's an alright player with a good attitude and great work ethic - he's a steal. No, that's not what I wanted to say, I meant that he GETS steals...he's not an outside shooter though, unless he has worked on it over the summer...a LOT

pwee31
11-15-2006, 05:20 PM
I thought Runi played well early, he had games of 20 & 16 points, then tweaked his back and loss his minutes?!!! He got inserted into the Wiz game late in the 3rd when it was out of reach, played decent while he was in, and then has only seen spurts since. Once again when he has the coaches confidence and is in the rotation regularly he plays well. When he doesn't know when/if he's gonna play.. he doesn't play well. It's pretty simple

JayRedd
11-15-2006, 05:25 PM
I personally don't want to see Runi go, but I'm guessing he would be the front office/fans 1st choice, plus he would prolly have the most value of the guards. You could possibly even throw in Hulk since they play so well together?


Mo Pete? :gossip:


Really? Last time i checked the celtics haven't won a championship in over a decade so don't tell me they dont just play anybody....Aside from Paul Pierce and Wally their team consists mostly of guys who didn't live up to expectations.

or two even


As a student here at Boston College (which is, surprisingly enough, not in the city of Boston), I've had numerous opportunities to see Orien Greene in action...

Newton rocks!!! Newton rocks!!!

Dr. Goldfoot
11-15-2006, 05:28 PM
It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Tinsley will of course remain the starter. Greene did play 15 or so minutes a game last year as the backup on a 33-49 non-playoff team. Armstrong is a 38 year old who came out of retirement (albeit a short lived one). Runi is the guy pencilled for a second consecutive season. Armstrong has apparently already taken the B/U point guard minutes from Runi and Greene by all accounts is a better all around player at this point in their careers(better than Armstrong that is). Where does that leave Runi? If he loses out to one of these guys he's a bust. It's only a matter of time until he loses his minutes at the 2 guard to Daniels & Marshall. W/O the requisite skills the NBA requires from it's point guards, I don't see how people can continue to argue on his behalf.

Look at the Pacers next 5 games
Sebastian Telfair,Delonte West, Rajon Rondo, Jason Kidd, Marcus Williams,Maurice Williams,Charlie Bell, Jameer Nelson,Keyon Dooling, Paul Pierce,Vince Carter,Michael Redd,Grant Hill, Richard Jefferson & Carlos Arroyo are possible backcourt matchups.

I see alot of bigger 2's in that group Pierce,Carter,Hill....which should mean more Daniels at the backup 2.

ALF68
11-15-2006, 05:33 PM
He was waived by the Boston Celtics dude, not some crap team like the Bobcats...Jesus Christ, you'd think people would do a little research before they run their mouths off...the Celtics don't play just anybody!



(Scalabrine...)
Well now, the Celtics haven't set the world on fire lately , so he probably is a crap. Do you even follow the NBA, apparently not.

ALF68
11-15-2006, 05:35 PM
I don't think this should just be in the Celtics game thread or something since it goes beyond tonight.

They want Greene active, but someone has to sit tonight (or soon). Might be Armstrong with his minor tweek for tonight, but sometime soon a tough choice is going to hit the team.

Sarunas and Armstrong have both gotten off to nice starts, DA being the more consistant of course. What if DA sits to rest a minor injury and Greene really brings it? You could always put Powell or Marshall on the inactive, but how long can the team committ to 4 PGs, especially if they want them all to play?

I'm thrilled he's getting back. I'm not thrilled about the logjam the team apparently has at PG, last year it was only 3 and it was an issue. DA is a good guy, but really what fan wants to see HIM sit after his hot start?

Link to Star article by Mike Wells (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/SPORTS04/611150432)
I am a fan who wants to see him sit, for crying out loud he is 60 years old.

ALF68
11-15-2006, 05:39 PM
I personally would like to see Harrison stay around if I could make a call I would like to see Saras & Foster packaged for someone like Maglorie who is an expiring contract. I think the Foster hinders Harrisons development and if Harrison is moved we will regret it in the long run.
Yeah that's my kind of team!:censored:

LoneGranger33
11-15-2006, 05:50 PM
Newton rocks!!! Newton rocks!!!

Hahahah...I actually live in a part of Boston College that's in Chestnut Hill, but my some good friends of mine live in Newton, and my roommates from last year all live in Brighton...AND WE'RE ALL BC STUDENTS!

And Jay, are you from "La Ciudad" or simply the Empire State?


Well now, the Celtics haven't set the world on fire lately , so he probably is a crap. Do you even follow the NBA, apparently not.

If you were going for the obscure "Go Set the World Aflame"/Jesuit/BC reference, I applaud the effort...However, if you can't read, choose not to, or simply wish to be a Douche McCoo, then I hold my applause for the next performer...

McKeyFan
11-15-2006, 06:24 PM
Conspiracy question:

Any chance Runi didn't really injure his back? That maybe Rick decided to bench because of defensive concerns, et al, and they came up with a cover to protect his image?

Just a question.

pwee31
11-15-2006, 06:28 PM
Conspiracy question:

Any chance Runi didn't really injure his back? That maybe Rick decided to bench because of defensive concerns, et al, and they came up with a cover to protect his image?

Just a question.


I sure hope not! The guy was actually playing well, I would hope defensive concerns wouldn't lead to a bogus injury when the guy was averaging like 13pts. and 4ast. before that game

speakout4
11-15-2006, 06:36 PM
If Greene shows us something (anything), then I honestly think a Sarunas to the Raptors deal makes sense for both teams (as well as for Sarunas personally).

Every player is great until they actually play. Sarunas will beat out Greene every night because Greene is not an offensive player and Sarunas has the ability to light it up on occasion. Against a really good PG Greene will get defensive minutes.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 07:00 PM
Really? Last time i checked the celtics haven't won a championship in over a decade so don't tell me they dont just play anybody....Aside from Paul Pierce and Wally their team consists mostly of guys who didn't live up to expectations.
First the sarcasm sailed by. Second, we know the reason he was waived - the speeding charge for the 100 whatever in a 40 something area, something way over the limit (easily looked up online).

That's just the same as telling the Spurs they are fools for going after White since he was waived by the .500 Pacers. Or how about the Pacers "accepting" two stiffs that the Mavs didn't want to keep?

Meanwhile a team like Atlanta goes out of their way to sign a guy like Edwards to a nice FA contract. Does that make Edwards valuable because someone wanted him on the FA market and he's getting paid good money (for his skill level)? No more than it makes Greene a dud.

The Celtics got Greene's salary off their books since the Pacers picked him off waivers. Could be that the Celts had that in mind when they waived him, that he was more likely to get picked up than the average cut would be.


Also, Greene only played 1 preseason game, but he also played a ton of REAL minutes in the NBA last year. People know what he can do, he's a defensive specialist that handles the offensive end well enough to stay on the floor.



The guy gets 4-5 shots a game playing out of position lately and is getting shat on because he's not hitting them. The bottom line is this guy needs consistent minutes, and was supposed to be getting them this season with AJ gone, which has never happened.
This is just flat-out inaccurate. Sarunas was handed the #2 PG spot both last year and this year. He lost it with bad play last year, and then did the same thing partially in preseason this year.

WTF should a coach keep giving a guy 30 minutes if he looks awful with those minutes for several games? Because if you keep giving him the time he'll get better?

Why are players like Armstrong and Daniels able to play well in limited PT?

Who needs a player that plays like crap until after the 20 minutes played mark and can only score the ball well if he's the only PG on the court?

The truth is that even with Tinsley Sarunas is often given the chance to run HC sets on his side of the court (with Tins on the other side for ball reversal). With DA he was running more SG plays, but even that was adjusted some as he struggled with it.

The fact is that a good player finds a way to contribute no matter what is asked of him. Magic once had to play all 5 positions in a game and managed to get it done. I think a PG asked to play a little off-guard or even outright shooting guard should be able to handle the role without his PCT dropping off the charts.


Also, this same angle (probably by you) was brought up at the Star last year and so I went and investigated Cabbages "magic" PT vs FG%. Turns out that in those first 2 months of good play he was able to come in and make a ton of shots in limited PT some nights, and certainly within the first 5 minutes he was on the court.

Yes a shooter sometimes can find his way into his shot. Shooters keeping shooting it was often said when Reggie would struggle. But Reggie also had plenty of nights he started hot right away which is why people could be patient on the off nights.


BTW, the idea that he isn't being given the chance on only getting shots as an afterthought, perhaps forced...well his FGAs PER MINUTE are HIGHER than Jackson's. When he hits the court, he shoots plenty.

He gets an FGA every 2.38 minutes. Jack is taking a shot every 2.78 minutes. Armstrong is shooting every 3.33 minutes.

So SarJas is the most active shooter of the bunch, not the least. He's getting a ton of touches per minute. And despite shooting it less often per minute Jack and DA both have higher FG%. While we are at it, let's throw in Daniels who is also shooting better despite getting a lot less shots per minute too.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 07:05 PM
he's not an outside shooter though
So he fits right in with the current backcourt. :D


Seriously, they aren't about to light it up from outside anyway. It's a lot better to halt the dribble and perhaps get a couple of layups off of steals out past the arc.

ALF68
11-15-2006, 08:01 PM
First the sarcasm sailed by. Second, we know the reason he was waived - the speeding charge for the 100 whatever in a 40 something area, something way over the limit (easily looked up online).

That's just the same as telling the Spurs they are fools for going after White since he was waived by the .500 Pacers. Or how about the Pacers "accepting" two stiffs that the Mavs didn't want to keep?

Meanwhile a team like Atlanta goes out of their way to sign a guy like Edwards to a nice FA contract. Does that make Edwards valuable because someone wanted him on the FA market and he's getting paid good money (for his skill level)? No more than it makes Greene a dud.

The Celtics got Greene's salary off their books since the Pacers picked him off waivers. Could be that the Celts had that in mind when they waived him, that he was more likely to get picked up than the average cut would be.


Also, Greene only played 1 preseason game, but he also played a ton of REAL minutes in the NBA last year. People know what he can do, he's a defensive specialist that handles the offensive end well enough to stay on the floor.



This is just flat-out inaccurate. Sarunas was handed the #2 PG spot both last year and this year. He lost it with bad play last year, and then did the same thing partially in preseason this year.

WTF should a coach keep giving a guy 30 minutes if he looks awful with those minutes for several games? Because if you keep giving him the time he'll get better?

Why are players like Armstrong and Daniels able to play well in limited PT?

Who needs a player that plays like crap until after the 20 minutes played mark and can only score the ball well if he's the only PG on the court?

The truth is that even with Tinsley Sarunas is often given the chance to run HC sets on his side of the court (with Tins on the other side for ball reversal). With DA he was running more SG plays, but even that was adjusted some as he struggled with it.

The fact is that a good player finds a way to contribute no matter what is asked of him. Magic once had to play all 5 positions in a game and managed to get it done. I think a PG asked to play a little off-guard or even outright shooting guard should be able to handle the role without his PCT dropping off the charts.


Also, this same angle (probably by you) was brought up at the Star last year and so I went and investigated Cabbages "magic" PT vs FG%. Turns out that in those first 2 months of good play he was able to come in and make a ton of shots in limited PT some nights, and certainly within the first 5 minutes he was on the court.

Yes a shooter sometimes can find his way into his shot. Shooters keeping shooting it was often said when Reggie would struggle. But Reggie also had plenty of nights he started hot right away which is why people could be patient on the off nights.


BTW, the idea that he isn't being given the chance on only getting shots as an afterthought, perhaps forced...well his FGAs PER MINUTE are HIGHER than Jackson's. When he hits the court, he shoots plenty.

He gets an FGA every 2.38 minutes. Jack is taking a shot every 2.78 minutes. Armstrong is shooting every 3.33 minutes.

So SarJas is the most active shooter of the bunch, not the least. He's getting a ton of touches per minute. And despite shooting it less often per minute Jack and DA both have higher FG%. While we are at it, let's throw in Daniels who is also shooting better despite getting a lot less shots per minute too.
Why do all of your posts eventually lead to bashing Sars and putting Jax up on a platform as the greatest thing since white bread? Don't you ever tire of carrying Jax's water? I just don't get it, you are one of the most intelligent posters here and you let your blind alliegance to Jax destroy your image.

wintermute
11-15-2006, 10:02 PM
Why do all of your posts eventually lead to bashing Sars and putting Jax up on a platform as the greatest thing since white bread? Don't you ever tire of carrying Jax's water? I just don't get it, you are one of the most intelligent posters here and you let your blind alliegance to Jax destroy your image.

if you think seth is such an intelligent poster (which i do), then perhaps you would care to listen to his opinion even when it doesn't agree with yours

Anthem
11-15-2006, 10:59 PM
Why do all of your posts eventually lead to bashing Sars and putting Jax up on a platform as the greatest thing since white bread? Don't you ever tire of carrying Jax's water? I just don't get it, you are one of the most intelligent posters here and you let your blind alliegance to Jax destroy your image.
You think Seth puts Jack on a pedestal? I think you've got him mixed up with somebody else.

Regardless, it's an interesting point. Jack's shot hasn't been falling, but he's been dishing out a lot of assists (more than Sarunas), playing good defense, getting a rebound here and there, cutting down on his turnovers, and picking up a good number of steals (three times what Sarunas is getting).

The long and short is that even though Jack's shot isn't falling (and the truth is he's shooting a better percentage than Sarunas), he does other things to help his team win.

I'm not anti-Sarunas. But he hasn't yet shown that he can consistently play in the NBA.

rexnom
11-16-2006, 12:01 AM
Just so you guys know...Greene is a horrible ball-handler. He is horrible under pressure. Last year when the Celts were pressed, he'd always have to hand it off to West or Pierce.

Naptown_Seth
11-16-2006, 03:11 AM
You think Seth puts Jack on a pedestal? I think you've got him mixed up with somebody else.
This guy used to go by "Dillon" at the Star and eventually got himself banned. He typically plays the race card and tried to make something out of me saying Sarunas didn't have a typical NBA athlete's body (ie, he's not athletic by NBA standards). He turned that into a black/white thing and then waged this massive campaign to rip into me or anyone that dared to agree with me or even to simply not see his point.


Now at Star I typically defend Jack a lot because most posts are something along the lines of "Jack is a cancer and the worst ever and a huge waste of money and sucks and I hate him because he's just so awful and always shoots 30%...."

Since that's a healthy LSD trip to the left of reality on Jack's game, I end up debating it back to the center.

Left in a world of sensible talk and honest opinions my evaluation of Jack remains the same - he's streaky, he makes some really bad mental mistakes, he can get emotionally taken out of games...and then you see him calming someone else down or making a huge, smart play to turn things around.

He continues to be both sides of the coin. I find things wrong with his game nearly every night, some of them really awful.

Tonight both he and Tinsley were really stinking it up. Unfortunately SarJas still had the trump hand with his mid-2nd quarter travishamockery of alleged NBA basketball (easily could have passed for plays right out of the local Y...yes, they looked that bad).



Rexnom, I think he looks okay with the ball right now, at least in comparison to what AJ and Gill used to show or what Sarunas has typically brought. What stands out with Greene, at least tonight, was how smoothly he stays with his man, how he reads and moves through screens very effectively and how he is able to keep tabs both on his man and the play.

His defensive awareness is very high for a young player, higher than Granger's IMO. To me you have guys that bring effort on the ball, like Danny. They want to defend and given clear cut situations they do it well. But as plays get complex these young players often find themselves burned by some good screens, a little craftiness, and lots of movement.

Greene in his short time here and what I saw of him last year seems to be up to that level already, he's not just a "ball dog" you sick on a stud PG to slow him down.

I think most people high on Greene aren't looking for some killer A/TO guy or a scorer. We just expect great defense matched with "good enough" PG play.