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ChicagoJ
11-14-2006, 03:28 PM
Okay, in spite of being on the road a lot, I've seen most of the games (but, ironically, I was not in Chicago for the game Saturday night.)

Quick observations that I'm sure have been covered around here somewhere else...

(1) Tinsley and JO are just crucial to the success of the "new" Pacers. Its going to take time before every one "looks good" in this system. Even if the system seems to leverage JO's and Jamaal's strengths, they still have years of slow-it-down, isolation-ball habits to break. And it shows at times. The Washington game was a prime example - we all know Tinsley still has defensive limitations but without JO's interior presence, our defense was just miserable.

(2) I've been proud that Rick seems to be resisting temptation to tighten it up. Quinn had some fascinating things to say on that topic during the Orlando game - to take it one step further, it will take a while before the players are instinctively ready to just play the game (without looking to the bench for a play call). Its a shame it came to this. After all, basketball is a beautiful game to watch when the players are all in movement and in-sync with each other.

(3) SJax - brace yourselves - I've hardly noticed when he's on the court. And that's a great thing. Because his game is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. But - to his credit - he seems to be doing a much, much better job of playing his role, understanding his role, not disrupting the offense, not hogging the ball, not taking too many terrible shots (empahsize "too many"). When he remembers that, of our starting five, he's the fourth option at best behind JO, Al, and Tinsley, he *can* compliment their games. There have even been times this season where I've thought that he's made "smart" plays - something he's very rarely been accused of in the past. I hope he keeps it up and accumlates some trade value - it would be nice to have options instead of guys that are untradeable.

(4) David Harrison - lost too much weight. Remember in the Bo Hill era, when the "smart" decision was to have Rik gain weight to play in the post. Well, Rik, as many of us knew, was just a 7'4" small forward, and that didn't work. Larry Brown took one look at Rik in '94 and told him to lose the extra weight, and Rik became a better player.

We've got the opposite problem with David. David is a bruiser, first and foremost. But not anymore. Now we've got that awful combination of a guy who uses his hands too much... but now he really NEEDS to use his hands because he's getting pushed around as he's never been pushed around before.

We're doing him a disservice. Its time to let him bulk back up and go play elsewhere. But I sure don't want to see him on the court until he's back to 280lbs, and you all know that I'm a David Harrison fan...

(5) Powell/ Marshall - Who would've thought that "Throw-in #1" and "Throw-in #2" would've even made the team, let alone play relatively well in their limited roles? Marshall appears headed toward the common young-player problem of playing much better in home games than away games. I'd like the Pacers to try a two week expiriment of giving Foster's minutes to Powell - can Foster's rebounding productivity be replaced in a way that Foster could be used in a trade to improve the backcourt? As for Foster, he seems much more capable of catching the ball this season.

(6) Daniels - I'm starting to really, really like this kid's game. He's heady, he doesn't seem to make mistakes, I like his effort. And he seems very, very adept around the rim. He doesn't really play the same style I don't think, but he's got many of the same attributes as Vern Fleming, who I always enjoyed watching play because he just had a way of making plays out of nothing.

Lastly, and most importantly,

(7) I really underestimated just how good Rick could do at keeping this team competitive most nights while they went through a long learning/ adjustment period. By continuing to emphasize defense overall, even with certain strategic changes defensively, this team is putting themselves in position to win the games it can/ should win (Bobcats, Philly, Orlando, NYK) - something I was concerned about because the last time this team had a real fundamental identity shift like this (toward defense, under Larry Brown) they really looked awful for a number of weeks against every type of opponent.

Isaac
11-14-2006, 03:34 PM
(6) Daniels - I'm starting to really, really like this kid's game. He's heady, he doesn't seem to make mistakes, I like his effort. And he seems very, very adept around the rim. He doesn't really play the same style I don't think, but he's got many of the same attributes as Vern Fleming, who I always enjoyed watching play because he just had a way of making plays out of nothing.

That's a great comparison. I was just thinking about that.

Israfan
11-14-2006, 03:43 PM
Nice review but what about S word?

Pitons
11-14-2006, 04:04 PM
(6) Daniels - I'm starting to really, really like this kid's game. He's heady, he doesn't seem to make mistakes, I like his effort. And he seems very, very adept around the rim. He doesn't really play the same style I don't think, but he's got many of the same attributes as Vern Fleming, who I always enjoyed watching play because he just had a way of making plays out of nothing.


Looking at Daniels stats, he should be doing very well in other aspects of the game as everybody praises him very much. Pitty, I didn't see any Pacers games yet, but I'm planning to watch Pacers on Wednesday and I will see this phenomenon.

Unclebuck
11-14-2006, 04:31 PM
(4) David Harrison - lost too much weight. Remember in the Bo Hill era, when the "smart" decision was to have Rik gain weight to play in the post. Well, Rik, as many of us knew, was just a 7'4" small forward, and that didn't work. Larry Brown took one look at Rik in '94 and told him to lose the extra weight, and Rik became a better player.

We've got the opposite problem with David. David is a bruiser, first and foremost. But not anymore. Now we've got that awful combination of a guy who uses his hands too much... but now he really NEEDS to use his hands because he's getting pushed around as he's never been pushed around before.

We're doing him a disservice. Its time to let him bulk back up and go play elsewhere. But I sure don't want to see him on the court until he's back to 280lbs, and you all know that I'm a David Harrison fan...




What? So that's the problem now.

The problem I see is the same problem I've seen since he became a Pacer. He is not a basketball player physically, mentally, or emotionally. He has no clue what he's doing out on the court. He has zero instincts and no idea what is going on. I've never seen a Pacers player who has no feel for the game of basketball before - but that is what Harrison has right now.

Isaac
11-14-2006, 04:35 PM
What? So that's the problem now.

The problem I see is the same problem I've seen since he became a Pacer. He is not a basketball player physically, mentally, or emotionally. He has no clue what he's doing out on the court. He has zero instincts and no idea what is going on. I've never seen a Pacers player who has no feel for the game of basketball before - but that is what Harrison has right now.

I've been a David Harrison supporter up untill since we picked him, and it saddens me that I cannot disagree with this one bit.

I really want to move David before the league catches on.

rexnom
11-14-2006, 04:50 PM
I just want to agree say that it's huge that we're beating teams we really can and should beat. We've lost to New Orleans, Washington, and Chicago. Could the Pacers beat those teams in a seven-game series? Tough. There are so many teams that we can beat though. It's always SO disappointing in the past when we'll beat Detroit one night and then lose to Atlanta the next. Let's hope we can pull this one against the Celts out.

Btw, Jay, you have nothing to say about Al? I certainly didn't expect him to be this good.

ChicagoJ
11-14-2006, 04:55 PM
What? So that's the problem now.

The problem I see is the same problem I've seen since he became a Pacer. He is not a basketball player physically, mentally, or emotionally. He has no clue what he's doing out on the court. He has zero instincts and no idea what is going on. I've never seen a Pacers player who has no feel for the game of basketball before - but that is what Harrison has right now.

Now that's just silly.

He has a feel for the game of basketball. Specifically, he has an excellent feel for how to play in the low post. He hasn't had good coaching, especially at the NBA level but apparently also at the college level. He's got a couple of fundamental problems that he needs to resolve - especially in terms of technique, improving his footwork a little bit, and to quit relying on his hands (the #2 sign of improper post coaching, trailing only "fronting the post" - or as its better called, "Post Defense for wussies." :flirt: ) But your comments are so over-the-top I thought I was reading something I'd write...

:zip:

ChicagoJ
11-14-2006, 04:58 PM
I just want to agree say that it's huge that we're beating teams we really can and should beat. We've lost to New Orleans, Washington, and Chicago. Could the Pacers beat those teams in a seven-game series? Tough. There are so many teams that we can beat though. It's always SO disappointing in the past when we'll beat Detroit one night and then lose to Atlanta the next. Let's hope we can pull this one against the Celts out.

Btw, Jay, you have nothing to say about Al? I certainly didn't expect him to be this good.

Agree. I just didn't want to talk too much about the starting frontcourt because that was "too easy."

Have I mentioned lately that I don't like the Green Guys? Maybe I'll have a ceremonial buring of a Red Auerbach picture in honor of playing those $#^$&s ($#^$@s). :D

Robobtowncolt
11-14-2006, 04:59 PM
Go Celtics!

Tom White
11-14-2006, 05:08 PM
What? So that's the problem now.

The problem I see is the same problem I've seen since he became a Pacer. He is not a basketball player physically, mentally, or emotionally. He has no clue what he's doing out on the court. He has zero instincts and no idea what is going on. I've never seen a Pacers player who has no feel for the game of basketball before - but that is what Harrison has right now.

Are you sure you're not confusing him with Bender?

rexnom
11-14-2006, 05:09 PM
Agree. I just didn't want to talk too much about the starting frontcourt because that was "too easy."

Have I mentioned lately that I don't like the Green Guys? Maybe I'll have a ceremonial buring of a Red Auerbach picture in honor of playing those $#^$&s. :D
Hey, and you don't live in the middle of Celtics-country (not to mention Pats-country).

That is fair. I just want to give Al a special mention...he's been big.

ajbry
11-14-2006, 05:17 PM
Nice post overall.

However, I should expect this, but your Jack section was underestimating him quite a bit. Sure, it's progress that you are able to somewhat say you are satisfied with his performance, but a couple of your statements I have to disagree with.

"I've hardly noticed when he's on the court." - He's been putting up assists at a nice clip and is a facilitator of our offense, how could you not notice?

"He's the fourth option at best behind JO, Al, and Tinsley." - I won't even begin to dissect that statement, as we all know he's #3 anyway, and when he's "at his best" he's usually the #1.

But, it's nice to see you're slowly warming up to him, I guess that's progress.

Unclebuck
11-14-2006, 05:26 PM
Now that's just silly.

He has a feel for the game of basketball. Specifically, he has an excellent feel for how to play in the low post. He hasn't had good coaching, especially at the NBA level but apparently also at the college level. He's got a couple of fundamental problems that he needs to resolve - especially in terms of technique, improving his footwork a little bit, and to quit relying on his hands (the #2 sign of improper post coaching, trailing only "fronting the post" - or as its better called, "Post Defense for wussies." :flirt: ) But your comments are so over-the-top I thought I was reading something I'd write...

:zip:


You bring out the best in me, or the worst depending on your point of view

Just
11-14-2006, 05:45 PM
I agree that David lost a bit too much weight.

ChicagoJ
11-14-2006, 06:17 PM
Nice post overall.

However, I should expect this, but your Jack section was underestimating him quite a bit. Sure, it's progress that you are able to somewhat say you are satisfied with his performance, but a couple of your statements I have to disagree with.

"I've hardly noticed when he's on the court." - He's been putting up assists at a nice clip and is a facilitator of our offense, how could you not notice?

"He's the fourth option at best behind JO, Al, and Tinsley." - I won't even begin to dissect that statement, as we all know he's #3 anyway, and when he's "at his best" he's usually the #1.

But, it's nice to see you're slowly warming up to him, I guess that's progress.

He's not been playing as the #3, option, and he shouldn't be. If Granger is "hot", SJax should be content as the fifth option among the starters.

That's my point... he's playing within his role and a team context, and for the most part he's playing within his limitations. And he is much better for the team when he realizes that JO in the paint is always a better option than he is, Al anywhere on the court is a better option than he is, when Tinsley gets to the rim that's generally a good thing for the Pacers and that makes Tinsley a higher option than he is, and when Danny is in a groove, he's a better option.

The fact that SJax's assists are going up is just a sign that he realizes his place in the pecking order. Over the past couple of years, that's when his shot selection and turnovers would be the most detrimental, because the team would not be using its best options offensively.

I've always known he was a fourth- or fifth- option unless your team really stinks (like Atlanta, where he showed he "could" be the #1 option of a very, very bad team.) That's how Pop used him - he was the "wild card" and if he was on, Pop would let him have a bit of freedom. And if not, he'd bring in Manu. After a year in Atlanta, he needed a coach strong enough to reign him back in, and it seems to have taken Rick a long time to figure that out.

The fact that he now recognizes this with his play is exactly what is helping him, IMO. I think he's playing as well as he's played with the Pacers - he's down to only 11 FGA per game and that's a huge, huge improvement. Of course, he's shooting 31% overall and 22% from three (so the 4.5 3FGA/ game is still outrageously high but he seems to be improving on that since the NOK game - he's only taken 10 total 3FGAs over the past three games so that's progress) so maybe 11 FGA is still waaayy too many for him. I'd certainly like him down to single digits. But the assists are up, as you noted, and he's only at 3 TO/ game and that's not too terribly bad by his standards (and his 1.5 ATO makes it easier to tolerate the 3 TO/game.)

It is nice that he's acting more like a facilitator of the offense, instead of a detriment. The more he can "blend into the background", the better the team will be.

With SJax, "less is more." When he tries to do too much, he's not very good and his team suffers because of it. And we've seen glimpses of that already , but for the most part he seems to be trying to do less, and the fewer turnovers and missed shots (and bad shots) allow more opportunities for his teammates that are higher options in the first place.

AesopRockOn
11-14-2006, 07:10 PM
Go Celtics!

Wtf dude; btw, Tinsley should not be a scoring option, only a situational scorer. And we do have to dump Harrison.

indygeezer
11-14-2006, 07:16 PM
Okay, in spite of being on the road a lot, I've seen most of the games (but, ironically, I was not in Chicago for the game Saturday night.)

Quick observations that I'm sure have been covered around here somewhere else...

(1) Tinsley and JO are just crucial to the success of the "new" Pacers. Its going to take time before every one "looks good" in this system. Even if the system seems to leverage JO's and Jamaal's strengths, they still have years of slow-it-down, isolation-ball habits to break. And it shows at times. The Washington game was a prime example - we all know Tinsley still has defensive limitations but without JO's interior presence, our defense was just miserable.

(2) I've been proud that Rick seems to be resisting temptation to tighten it up. Quinn had some fascinating things to say on that topic during the Orlando game - to take it one step further, it will take a while before the players are instinctively ready to just play the game (without looking to the bench for a play call). Its a shame it came to this. After all, basketball is a beautiful game to watch when the players are all in movement and in-sync with each other.

(3) SJax - brace yourselves - I've hardly noticed when he's on the court. And that's a great thing. Because his game is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. But - to his credit - he seems to be doing a much, much better job of playing his role, understanding his role, not disrupting the offense, not hogging the ball, not taking too many terrible shots (empahsize "too many"). When he remembers that, of our starting five, he's the fourth option at best behind JO, Al, and Tinsley, he *can* compliment their games. There have even been times this season where I've thought that he's made "smart" plays - something he's very rarely been accused of in the past. I hope he keeps it up and accumlates some trade value - it would be nice to have options instead of guys that are untradeable.

(4) David Harrison - lost too much weight. Remember in the Bo Hill era, when the "smart" decision was to have Rik gain weight to play in the post. Well, Rik, as many of us knew, was just a 7'4" small forward, and that didn't work. Larry Brown took one look at Rik in '94 and told him to lose the extra weight, and Rik became a better player.

We've got the opposite problem with David. David is a bruiser, first and foremost. But not anymore. Now we've got that awful combination of a guy who uses his hands too much... but now he really NEEDS to use his hands because he's getting pushed around as he's never been pushed around before.

We're doing him a disservice. Its time to let him bulk back up and go play elsewhere. But I sure don't want to see him on the court until he's back to 280lbs, and you all know that I'm a David Harrison fan...

(5) Powell/ Marshall - Who would've thought that "Throw-in #1" and "Throw-in #2" would've even made the team, let alone play relatively well in their limited roles? Marshall appears headed toward the common young-player problem of playing much better in home games than away games. I'd like the Pacers to try a two week expiriment of giving Foster's minutes to Powell - can Foster's rebounding productivity be replaced in a way that Foster could be used in a trade to improve the backcourt? As for Foster, he seems much more capable of catching the ball this season.

(6) Daniels - I'm starting to really, really like this kid's game. He's heady, he doesn't seem to make mistakes, I like his effort. And he seems very, very adept around the rim. He doesn't really play the same style I don't think, but he's got many of the same attributes as Vern Fleming, who I always enjoyed watching play because he just had a way of making plays out of nothing.

Lastly, and most importantly,

(7) I really underestimated just how good Rick could do at keeping this team competitive most nights while they went through a long learning/ adjustment period. By continuing to emphasize defense overall, even with certain strategic changes defensively, this team is putting themselves in position to win the games it can/ should win (Bobcats, Philly, Orlando, NYK) - something I was concerned about because the last time this team had a real fundamental identity shift like this (toward defense, under Larry Brown) they really looked awful for a number of weeks against every type of opponent.

QFT

(eeeeeeeewww...a FIRST for me!)

ajbry
11-14-2006, 07:21 PM
I don't quite understand your #4 or #5 option argument. Yes, he can certainly be a #1 on a bad team. But on this team, he's always been #1 and #2, and now is #3. Saying that he's actually below Granger or even Tinsley is just a reach. He averaged 22 PPG during the stretch of JO's injury in 2005, and was our leading playoff scorer that postseason. Last year he scored 20+ points in 31 games.

ChicagoJ
11-14-2006, 07:50 PM
Sure, injuries and suspensions have forced him into a role that he's not capable of playing for a winning team.

Its obvious to me that its a significant part of the gameplan to get Tinsley to the rim for layups as that dribble-penetration causes defensive rotations that create even better opportunities for JO, Al, Danny, and even SJax. With as much dribble penetration that Tinsley is doing (and generally doing quite well although like everyone I wish he was finishing with a higher percentage) either for his own layup or opportunities for others, I don't see how one could argue that SJax, who has very few plays run for him, is a higher option.

We're not really running plays for either wing player - SJax and Danny are basically in a position to take advantage of the opportunities created by JO, Al, and Tinsley in a better-moving, better-spaced inside-out offense. SJax and Danny are starting because they're our two best perimeter defenders, not because of their offensive abilities.

Its up to SJax to decide if he's willing to thrive in this environment - remember Ron used to get numerous "residual" opportunities but spent a lot of time demanding more "touches", to the detriment of the team. And my point is that through seven games SJax has not given us very many of the ballhogging stinkers that he's known for. Just one that I've seen. That's progress.

BlueNGold
11-14-2006, 11:24 PM
The quick whistle and Club Rio seems to have taken the emotion out of his game. I know for me the best thing is that he keeps his mouth shut and plays. I am pleased with this version of Jack, compared to the previous model.

....it's amazing that he is our starting SG AND his shooting has been horrific, yet he is getting praise from even his detractors.

Bball
11-15-2006, 12:36 AM
The quick whistle and Club Rio seems to have taken the emotion out of his game. I know for me the best thing is that he keeps his mouth shut and plays. I am pleased with this version of Jack, compared to the previous model.

....it's amazing that he is our starting SG AND his shooting has been horrific, yet he is getting praise from even his detractors.

He's a smart man. He set the bar low and now can easily rise above it. It was all an elaborate plan to silence critics and win over fans.

:brilliant:

-Bball :D

Peck
11-15-2006, 01:40 AM
Now that's just silly.

He has a feel for the game of basketball. Specifically, he has an excellent feel for how to play in the low post. He hasn't had good coaching, especially at the NBA level but apparently also at the college level. He's got a couple of fundamental problems that he needs to resolve - especially in terms of technique, improving his footwork a little bit, and to quit relying on his hands (the #2 sign of improper post coaching, trailing only "fronting the post" - or as its better called, "Post Defense for wussies." :flirt: ) But your comments are so over-the-top I thought I was reading something I'd write...

:zip:


Actually Jay I am now of the thinking that U.B. is not being silly.

If it wasn't for Tom White so deftly bringing up Bender I would say that U.B. was about 100% right.

I've never seen a player actually regress the more he is in the league. Bender never had it & did not have the mentallity to have it either but David showed signs as a rookie of being something special or at least workable.

But it's gotten to the point now where I can honestly say that when he got a DNP-CD against the Bulls I just thought, meh.

It's sad really because I honestly had very very high hopes for him. The only thing that U.B. is 100% wrong about is the fact that the guy does not have a basketball body, in fact he is about everything you would ever want from a strong low post player physically.

But beyond that it's just not there.

I want it to still be there & there is still the part of me that says "if only he had a big mans coach", but then there is the part of me that also says "who was Dale's big man coach or who was Oakley's big man coach"?

Some players just have it & sadly some just don't.

I'm not sure bringing in Bill Russell, Bill Walton, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar & the ghost of Wilt Chamberlain would make that much differance to David.

The guy just can not get past his mental issues with the refs. & frankly he has made enemy's because of his constant complaining.

Like I said I wish it wasn't true & you know I have been a big Harrison supporter but as of now I would rather see every single min. he would play be given to Josh Powell.

Arcadian
11-15-2006, 12:59 PM
I'm only making this comparision because last year it was made. (Really Bynum should be/is a lot better than David.) If you want to see a young big man develop look at Bynum. He foul troubled nights too but his demeanor great, listens and has shown improvment.

Isaac
11-15-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm only making this comparision because last year it was made. (Really Bynum should be/is a lot better than David.) If you want to see a young big man develop look at Bynum. He foul troubled nights too but his demeanor great, listens and has shown improvment.

Bynum was also a guy who was good enough to jump straight from high school and be drafted 10th. Harrison played in college and was the last pick of the first round.

Arcadian
11-15-2006, 01:45 PM
I agree that is why I typed the first sentence. I think there is a signifigant talent gap.

However, on here people believe David has the talent to be an all-star and the two players have been compared. Whether if that is true or not there is also a huge gap better the two's maturity. Thank goodness we are done with high school players. ;)

Unclebuck
11-15-2006, 02:23 PM
Bynum was also a guy who was good enough to jump straight from high school and be drafted 10th. Harrison played in college and was the last pick of the first round.

That is exactly correct - but last year at this time many Pacers fans were glamoring for DH to start and if only Rick would wise up and play him more he'd be the starting center we need. (I think at the forum party last January it was about 90% of the people wanted DH to start) I strongly argued against that last year, but was no one listened. Now a year later, a few of my forum friends are starting to see the light.

Of course I hope DH has a great game tonight and leads the pacers to a huge road win

Since86
11-15-2006, 02:48 PM
Bynum was also a guy who was good enough to jump straight from high school and be drafted 10th. Harrison played in college and was the last pick of the first round.

Bynum was in no way, shape, or form "good enough" to be drafted straight from HS. Do you think Bender was "good enough" to be drafted straight from HS as well?

No HSler is. They're drafted on potential, and potential alone. Except for Moses Malone, there really hasn't been a kid that's made the jump that came in ready to play at that level. Yes, Kobe put up pretty good numbers considering, and so did KG, but they weren't ready ready.

UB- I'm amazed, more like dumbfounded, that you said he wasn't phsyically ready. If David Harrison doesn't have the phsyical tools to make it in the league, then no one does. There are very few players that have his size and athleticism. A lot have the size, but not both.

He needs a freaking big-man coach BADLY. Until he get's one, there's no way he can become fundamentally ready, emotionally ready, and he won't be able to raise his basketball IQ.

Isaac
11-15-2006, 02:52 PM
That is exactly correct - but last year at this time many Pacers fans were glamoring for DH to start and if only Rick would wise up and play him more he'd be the starting center we need. (I think at the forum party last January it was about 90% of the people wanted DH to start) I strongly argued against that last year, but was no one listened. Now a year later, a few of my forum friends are starting to see the light.

Of course I hope DH has a great game tonight and leads the pacers to a huge road win

Well I'm one of the people who's been advocating starting David Harrison for a while now, just because I felt like those flashes that we have seen over the last few years might be the real David waiting to break out, but this season I'm already convinced that Rick is correct in not playing David. He has no b-ball IQ and he's not a skilled enough player to overcome that. It's too bad, because I think he's a good lockerroom guy, and I like him a lot.


No HSler is. They're drafted on potential, and potential alone. Except for Moses Malone, there really hasn't been a kid that's made the jump that came in ready to play at that level. Yes, Kobe put up pretty good numbers considering, and so did KG, but they weren't ready ready.

I don't know, that LeBron kid did pretty well. As did Dwight Howard.

Since86
11-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Well I'm one of the people who's been advocating starting David Harrison for a while now, just because I felt like those flashes that we have seen over the last few years might be the real David waiting to break out, but this season I'm already convinced that Rick is correct in not playing David. He has no b-ball IQ and he's not a skilled enough player to overcome that. It's too bad, because I think he's a good lockerroom guy, and I like him a lot.



I don't know, that LeBron kid did pretty well. As did Dwight Howard.

All I can say about LBJ is touche. For some odd reason, I totally forgot him, which is very hard to do. But Howard still isn't "good" enough. He's athletic enough sure, but skill wise he's no where close and early this year it's showing. For every LeBron and Moses, there's three or more Bender's or Swift's. Hence the reasoning why there was a rule put in place not allowing them to make the jump.

On DH. I don't think he should even play, as of now. He can't be expected to make the necessary gains on his own, because it's something you just know, or you learn. It's not an instinct for him, so he has to learn it, and he has no one to learn it from. JO/Al/Foster are all different types of players than he is. The Pacers haven't made the dedication to David, like he's made to the Pacers, unfortunately. He lost weight for them, by all accounts he works hard for them, and what have they done? They haven't signed or hired anyone capable of teaching him. He's got the tools to be an above average center in this league, they just aren't sharp right now. I would hate to see the Ps just let him walk, but I have a feeling it's going to happen. Some team is going to make a vested interest, or already have the ultilities in place, and scoop him up and mold him into what he can become. It's going to be a gloomy day when that happens.

Isaac
11-15-2006, 03:20 PM
But Howard still isn't "good" enough. He's athletic enough sure, but skill wise he's no where close and early this year it's showing.

Woah, Woah. Dwight's first season he averaged a double double and shot over 50 percent. This season he's shooting over 60% and getting 15 and 13! Not to mention the fact that his blocks per game are up to 2.2. Dwight is tearing up the league this season, not sure where you get that he's not skilled enough.

Since86
11-15-2006, 03:23 PM
How many of those shots were dunks from someone setting him up, or an offensive rebound?

Which is why I said he was athletic enough.

Isaac
11-15-2006, 03:27 PM
How many of those shots were dunks from someone setting him up, or an offensive rebound?

Which is why I said he was athletic enough.

Darius Miles, Travis Outlaw, Trevor Ariza, Jonathon Bender, J.R. Smith. Those are good examples of guys that are athletic enough, but not skilled enough. None of those guys could put up 16 and 13 on 60% shooting, I'll guarantee you that.

Keep in mind, even with all this said I think Dwight should have gone to school. If he would have gone and perfected his footwork in the lowpost, he could have been a 22 and 15 guy right out of college.

Since86
11-15-2006, 03:30 PM
None of them are 6'10 260 with shoulders as wide as barn doors either.

Comparing the stat line of a perimeter based player, with those against a post player, is like comparing the engine performace in a Mustang and Probe. Sure they're both Fords, but they're designed for two different jobs.

Arcadian
11-15-2006, 03:39 PM
How many rookies college or not are NBA ready? All players are drafted on potential as none have done anything in the NBA. There are a lot of players who have played many years who didn't produce like Howard. And there are many big men who as of now aren't as good as Bynum. Granted he's not a starter on every team but how many centers are?

ChicagoJ
11-15-2006, 03:41 PM
Now hold on. Before we rush to judgment on David's bballIQ, keep in mind the transition he's made from last season to this season.

He's lost what, 25-30 pounds?

David's entire basketball identity has been "I dominate the paint."

He's in the process of learning an entirely new way to play center - a finesse way that I'm not particualry fond of, but that's not the point. He's got a long learning curve this season and it will take him time to figure out how to do it. And he still doesn't have an appropriate big man coach to help him work through typical young big-man issues like fouls/ leverage, weak-side defensive help, etc.

Rash judgment about his ability to adapt after only six games is just obnoxiously silly.

But I think its a real dis-service that the Pacers have apparently asked him to change his basketball identity this much in the first place. As Popeye says, "I am what I am."

If our strategy is based on wimpy PFs and Cs that rely on quickness but not strength/ post position, we'd be better off trading David and aquiring more guys that fit the mold we're looking for than converting David into something he's not.

And that's why I don't mind seeing Josh Powell on the court. It won't be long, I don't think, until Powell starts to take minutes away from Foster.

Since86
11-15-2006, 03:47 PM
Just because you've never played in the NBA, doesn't mean they don't know what they're going to get from a multi-year college player. Yes, they have the potential to get better, but you also know they level they're capable of playing out which is a tremendous advantage.

There are a lot less question marks on players who played at a level thats quite a bit higher than HS, than there are with a kid who's had half their top competition not even make it to a D1 program, let alone a competitive one.

Will Galen
11-15-2006, 03:52 PM
That is exactly correct - but last year at this time many Pacers fans were glamoring for DH to start and if only Rick would wise up and play him more he'd be the starting center we need. (I think at the forum party last January it was about 90% of the people wanted DH to start) I strongly argued against that last year, but was no one listened. Now a year later, a few of my forum friends are starting to see the light.

Of course I hope DH has a great game tonight and leads the pacers to a huge road win

I thought you were crazy earlier this year when you wanted to trade David. My thinking still is that centers take more time to develop. However, he does seem to be going the other way. Still I'm not ready to just give him away yet.

My thought is changing the way the team plays probably didn't help his development.

RWB
11-15-2006, 04:01 PM
My thinking still is that centers take more time to develop.


What Will, you don't remember how Antonio Davis just came in and took right off? ;) Tony was stashed for two years before he could make an impact on this team and Tony got playing time when he was overseas. Many may think in my eyes David can't do any wrong, but all I'm asking for is smart decision making on the Pacers part. I'm in the camp it's time to really find out by getting that personal attention and if we find it's not there then someone WILL want a big man for the little pay he makes.

Arcadian
11-15-2006, 04:07 PM
Just because you've never played in the NBA, doesn't mean they don't know what they're going to get from a multi-year college player. Yes, they have the potential to get better, but you also know they level they're capable of playing out which is a tremendous advantage.

There are a lot less question marks on players who played at a level thats quite a bit higher than HS, than there are with a kid who's had half their top competition not even make it to a D1 program, let alone a competitive one.

Every pick is still a gamble. You are just talking about playing nickel slots or quarter slots.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 04:12 PM
(1) Well many of the sets they run do feature JO in the high post/elbow, mainly because he can shoot, pass and drive out of the triple threat very well for a big. Some of the plays though feature guys being interchanged that don't quite work, so it appears to me that RC is modifying or adjusting the sets to fit this rather diverse set of talents. The fact is that Al, JO, Harrison and Foster are nowhere near the same types of players, for example.

Tinsley has been a lot more upbeat, but doesn't seem to be as critical to this playbook as he has in the past to be honest, and I'm a huge Tins fan typically. He's been decent but not great yet, but that hasn't stopped them from winning games.

(2) Rick is still calling plenty of plays, just as the discussion about the mini-confrontation with Jack pointed out. It's not just free-for-all, it's still a highly focused attack I think, or that's the ultimate goal. One thing I do feel very good about Tinsley is that IMO it appears that he and RC have full buy-in with each other, meaning that Tins knows what the playbook goal is and is willing to try to make it happen and that RC appears to maybe be a little more comfortable with letting him run it because of this (or RC just trying to be that way).

Of course it's very hard to tell some of this stuff by just watching, especially on TV.

(3) I defend Jack all the time, and this is why. I've never protected him from claims that he was streaky and that sometimes he really takes himself out of games mentally. That's true and a big negative. But even when he's doing some of that stuff, he's still also showing some pretty solid basketball ability. I'm not surprised that his game (apart from the shot) is going so well...but I am pleased to see him holding his focus on team play for longer stretches. It shows in the numbers he is putting up, again outside of the shooting.

(4) I love Harrison's post footwork, but his struggles to get post position seem as bad as ever and I think you are probably on to something about the weight issue. Hand fouling has been his biggest problem and it does seem like the lower weight might have amplified it.

(5) Can't bench Foster, not the way he's playing. But I do like Powell's game. He's behind JO, Al, Foster and Harrison and of those 4 he's most like JO. He's got a similar elbow jumper that seems to be a quality shot for him (how it looks and his makes in pre-season), so he fits in well if JO is out. Otherwise though it's kinda tough to scheme him in just yet. But you keep him and do what you can from night to night to get him some PT, he's a solid talent.

Marshall is just outstanding. He impressed in pre-season and the little time he's had in the season has been just as good. Lots of hustle, great with the dribble attack to the basket, solid scorer all-around and draws fouls. He is similar to Daniels and Jack, but not quite. Sarunas has been playing mostly very well, but Rawle appears to ensure that Cabbages won't be back past the current contract.

Powell and Marshall both certainly make players like Harrison and Sarunas tradable. Too bad the Pacers didn't know what they had last summer...or maybe they did and just couldn't get something done. The Harrison and Sarunas rumors were certainly out there.

(6) Daniels - He's not Fleming because Vern put every ball in if he got to the rim. He was a classic drive and finish guy IMO. MD actually gets stopped on most of his drives, but his knack for getting inside in the first place is strong. Typically he's been pretty good about doing something with the ball once he gets into the lane too, unlike Fred Jones (for contrast).

I started the Daniels-McKey thread for the same reasons you mention. He does a little bit of everything which adds up to quite a bit overall. He's more like McKey because defensively he's very intuitive on help defense and pretty solid straight up as well (not Big Heavy good, but decent). Fleming wasn't that kind of defensive player.

(7) I also expected them to struggle more early on due to the learning process. Honestly they kind of have, it's been pretty ugly at times. But typical of Rick his teams just win somehow when you don't expect much from them.

Really I think most of it stems from the defensive end. Other than problems off of TO's or when they try and run and then don't get back well, the defensive has been very strong. In the HC they are pretty stingy, and at the very least some of the effort on transition (like JO running down to get that block the other night, or Granger's "flagrant" foul) has shown a real buy-in to defend hard.

spreedom
11-15-2006, 04:12 PM
How many of those shots were dunks from someone setting him up, or an offensive rebound?


Um, isn't that the same for every true center in the league?

I think, by the end of next season (at the latest), D12 is going to be universally accepted as the best center in the league. Isn't he on pace (based on season-by-season averages) to average something like 23 and 17 by then? SCARY. Just think.. soon, they're going to actually run the offense through him instead of him creating most of his own opportunities (either on the break or on the boards).

I'd KILL to have Howard on the Pacers. I'd trade any two of our players for Howard. Too bad they'd laugh in our faces.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 04:14 PM
David's entire basketball identity has been "Hulk Smash!"
Fixed. :D

Since86
11-15-2006, 04:25 PM
Every pick is still a gamble. You are just talking about playing nickel slots or quarter slots.

I'm lost on slot machines, but I'll keep it gambling related.:D

I'm talking about going all in with J-J rather than 8-8.


Um, isn't that the same for every true center in the league?

I'd KILL to have Howard on the Pacers. I'd trade any two of our players for Howard. Too bad they'd laugh in our faces.

No. He's offensive footwork is atrocious. Harrison has better low post skills (IMHO) than him, and that's saying something. Yes, he is a very good player and I would trade anyone on the team for him, any two just like you, but that doesn't mean that his skill set is better than JOs.

I view him like I view Amare. What's gonna happen if he looses his superior athletic ability? Can he play with his back to the basket? Right now he can't. He would be forced to develop skills, or he would fade away.

EDIT: I posted this then reready Seth's post. This is why I made the comment about DH's footwork, which I'm not anywhere nearly as high on as Seth. I think he's too slow with it, and he doesn't adapt to the defense. Yes, he has some very good moves and moves that work on most defenders. But he tries to bully them into position to get a certain move, a lot of the time it's the drop step to the baseline. Instead of feeling the defense, and going, he pounds them and either lets help come down, or he takes away his angle.

It still goes back to having a big man's coach though. He needs someone to be able to effectly communicate when and where he should drop step or come back into the middle. It seems like he makes up his mind on what move he wants before he reaches half court.

HSlers aren't drafted on their ability. They're drafted on the amount of athleticism and their potential to develop ability.

Naptown_Seth
11-15-2006, 04:33 PM
We're not really running plays for either wing player
Well actually they use the Jack/JO Give and Go a lot, and as T'Bird and I discussed the playbook last week they have the one play that specifically features Jack curling off a low block screen which they have run into the ground at times.

Jack is heavily in the playbook, he's just not chucking as many forced shots and even passing on a few open looks in order to penetrate the ball better to a higher PCT FG attempt (by passing typically).


Tinsley to the rim - well again, I love Tins game and I will say that he gets good looks, especially in the low post. But honestly he leaves way too many on the iron. He's like 90% of the way to a great interior game, but that last 10% really ruins a lot of his chances. If he could score that little post one-handed turnaround bankshot at near 100% he'd really rough up the other team's PG.

That's where he needs some of that Vern magic near the rim. :)


Jay - the footwork I agree with on the defensive end. Typically when people have mentioned it I thought they meant offense, and that's just wrong. You put the ball in Dave's hands in the low post area, he'll protect the ball and use his feet and the dribble to get a good shot. And he seems to have balance while doing it, he's not a "chair pulled" guy from what I've seen.

But he can't get post position very well, and it's much worse on the other end because losing that battle means his man has him beat already. I think he's okay if he keeps his man in front of him and has to defend a guy working the low block with the ball. But before his man gets the ball he's often in trouble, very similar to how he plays on the offensive end.


Fouls and young players. The fact is that David's fouls have stayed high while other players see their fouls drop dramatically as they learn the game. Granger started off with big foul problems last year, equal to David's. But just a month or so into it Danny started to show real improvement, and surprise surprise he started getting more PT too.

The foul issues for David are no longer that he's just young or gets no respect. He has a real problem that might not be going away any time soon.


But he tries to bully them into position to get a certain move, a lot of the time it's the drop step to the baseline. Instead of feeling the defense, and going, he pounds them and either lets help come down, or he takes away his angle.Perhaps, but honestly he's very effective with it because he's steady (doesn't rush it) and does have the power to make the play. He gets shots that he is comfortable with and can score. I sincerely feel good if they get David the ball down low with position.

My issue is often that before that they spend 6-8 seconds giving David a chance to get that position, including ball reversals and baseline screens, and too often he never does get it and they have to give up and go to plan B away from him. That's where he really falls short IMO. Jabbar got his position, so did Malone. Heck, Sheed even gets good post position and he likes to play away from the rim half the time.


Howard - yeah, offensive post play is not his forte yet. He's all power scoring, which he happens to be very good at. He might find it like Shaq eventually did to a degree, but with the success he has without it he might not search that hard for it. :)

Low post play is dying off it seems. At least traditional bigs back-to-the-basket style.

Since86
11-15-2006, 04:53 PM
Are you stalking me Seth? How did you know my middle name?:hmm:

ChicagoJ
11-15-2006, 05:23 PM
Are you stalking me Seth? How did you know my middle name?:hmm:

:laugh: I was thinking to myself, "Did I say that?" Then I went looking for a JayRedd post...

D-BONE
11-15-2006, 07:43 PM
The start is reasonable given the expectaions and circumstances of the last couple years. Unfortuantely, I don't have as much faith in DH as some and I'd be willing to part with him more readily than Foster.

I guess I can see these Daniels-Mckey/Vern comparisons in the very broadest sense. However, I'm not sure if his actual impact/contribution will ever be anywhere near those guys. The big difference I see is that those guys were good enough to be starters/big minute players. Will that be true of Quis? I don't know. I hope so.

I don't think either Jack or Tins has played real well, at least not consistently. However, they have both played closer to the roles within which we need them operating for the overall good of the team. For that I give them both credit.

I'm still peeved about the Bull's game implosion. I don't care if they're supposedly an Eastern power and it's just November. I'm not taking any moral victories from playing them close down to the wire. Ultimately, every game counts.