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View Full Version : Indy's Future at Shooting Guard?



PacersFan83
11-10-2006, 01:52 PM
Who's Indy's future at shooting guard? Is it Stephen Jackson? Marquis Daniels? Or someone else?

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2015/sjpr7.pnghttp://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7071/mdpl1.png

EDIT: forgot the poll, can an admin please add one?

PacersFan83
11-10-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm strongly in favor of Marquis Daniels. I just feel he's a far superior all-around basketball player to Stephen Jackson. He can't hit from downtown, but he does everything else so much better. If he can become even a so-so (33%ish) 3-point shooter, he'll be something special.

Anthem
11-10-2006, 02:01 PM
I'll go with "neither." If we're forced to choose, I'd probably choose Jackson. Marquis hasn't yet shown that he's capable of being a superior player.

Bball
11-10-2006, 02:01 PM
I choose:
"Someone Else"


-Bball

Anthem
11-10-2006, 02:05 PM
I choose:
"Someone Else"


-Bball
:brilliant:

Great minds think alike... and ours too.

SoupIsGood
11-10-2006, 02:12 PM
Rawle.

Unclebuck
11-10-2006, 02:17 PM
What do you mean by "future" If you mean two or three seasons, then I think Marshal might be the answer, but not this year or next

Isaac
11-10-2006, 02:23 PM
I think it could be Marquis, but I think he's best suited as a 6th man who comes in and brings defense and energy. Right now there is no question the best man for the job is Jack.

I think Rawle could be that guy in 2 years.

What about Dwyane Wade? He's looked pretty good so far, maybe we could get him for David Harrison? They could use a dominant force in the post since Shaq is retiring soon.

Speed
11-10-2006, 02:26 PM
I think it's probably Jax through his contract, it's interesting Rawle is what you would want I suppose a defensive minded guy who gets stats without having his number called. Rawle has actually done a better at this than DG, but it's early. Daniels has not nearly hit his stride, look at his numbers at Dallas, I think he's will have twice the impact he is now by Christmas, but I am pleased that he quietly seems to be able to put up numbers, to me that's always telling that you look at the box at the end of the game and they have much better numbers than expected. A side note, look at Marquis numbers from his first full year and compare them to Grangers, pretty close. So to answer the question, I would say your 2 guard of the immediate future, the next 3 years is here in Jax and your long term shooting guard is still in college somewhere, imho.

FlavaDave
11-10-2006, 02:27 PM
I think the starter two years from now will be either a draft pick or someone we traded for. Marquis has an outside chance. Marshall would be a pleasant surprise.

PacersFan83
11-10-2006, 02:29 PM
I'm quite certain Marquis would be a 16/6/4/2/48% All-Defense player if he played 35 minutes a game. His game is very similar to Larry Hughes, except I think Quis can be better.

Slick Pinkham
11-10-2006, 03:21 PM
Eric Gordon?

ALF68
11-10-2006, 03:44 PM
Someone else gets my vote, these two can't cut it for sure.

PacersFan83
11-10-2006, 03:56 PM
Why, exactly, can't Marquis Daniels "cut it"? He's more than "cut it" when he's started for the Mavs the past few seasons. Why couldn't he "cut it" for us? Does Marquis have a single weakness outside of his poor long distance shooting?

Moses
11-10-2006, 04:06 PM
Why, exactly, can't Marquis Daniels "cut it"? He's more than "cut it" when he's started for the Mavs the past few seasons. Why couldn't he "cut it" for us? Does Marquis have a single weakness outside of his poor long distance shooting?
He plays out of control sometimes..but I still like him a hell of alot more then I do Jack. Marquis reminds me of Ginobli in some ways in terms of how he handles the basketball. A little reckless, but he somehow manages to get into the lane with possession of the ball and lay it in for an easy 2. Jack can't do that. I think we need to post Jack up more often to fully utilize him as our SG. I'm sick of him hoisting up 3's unless he's hitting them.

Our future at SG could be Marshall though. He needs more muscle on his frame and some experience, but he could really be something special.

PacersFan83
11-10-2006, 04:22 PM
Rawle Marshall has been impressive so far, but only relatively impressive, relative to being a complete unknown before this season. He still has to prove he can be a quality backup on a full-time basis before we even get to him possibly starting. Right now, hes James Jones #2 to me. And I should point out, Rawle Marshall is an even worse 3 point shooter than Quis. So to those who think Quis isn't capable of starting due to his shooting, I see no way possible you can defend Rawle Marshall as the Pacers SG of the Future at this point in time.

I'm also a little baffled by people judging Marquis after 5 games after the backlash I took over the Granger thread. I guess 107 minutes is enough playing time to judge a SG, but 146 minutes isn't near enough to judge a SF.

BlueNGold
11-10-2006, 04:33 PM
I want Rawle to get his chance. I think he's a guy that will put up 15ppg if given the minutes. Most important, he will get that 15 without shooting 15-20 times. I would like to see what he can do when they call plays for him. He seems to have a great knack for getting in the hole or getting fouled. Also, he plays D, has the right attitude and has the chance to get a lot better.

Between Quis and Jack, I would take Quis. He is younger, a better ball handler, a good play maker and a great defender. We have other guys who love to shoot it like Al and JO. In any event, Jack might not be an available choice long term.

EDIT: Jack will start all of this year IMO.....unless traded or cut due to being convicted of the felony charge.

ALF68
11-10-2006, 05:31 PM
I want Rawle to get his chance. I think he's a guy that will put up 15ppg if given the minutes. Most important, he will get that 15 without shooting 15-20 times. I would like to see what he can do when they call plays for him. He seems to have a great knack for getting in the hole or getting fouled. Also, he plays D, has the right attitude and has the chance to get a lot better.

Between Quis and Jack, I would take Quis. He is younger, a better ball handler, a good play maker and a great defender. We have other guys who love to shoot it like Al and JO. In any event, Jack might not be an available choice long term.

being EDIT: Jack will start all of this year IMO.....unless traded or cut due to convicted of the felony charge.
One can only hope that he is traded whilehe still has some value.

Anthem
11-10-2006, 05:48 PM
His game is very similar to Larry Hughes
:puke:

In that case, trade him now!

Naptown_Seth
11-10-2006, 06:50 PM
:puke:

In that case, trade him now!
Luckily this is not actually the case. He is in no way ball dominant, and he clearly shows restraint on his shot selection. He's put up a couple of long ones, but typically he'll pass them up in search of something juicier inside.

I still don't like him as the starting SG though, not unless Danny truly becomes a 38-40% shooting SF. I LOVE Daniels as the 6th man coming in behind the SG and SF however. That's a great role for him, one that should pay out in lots of playing time for a long time to come if he embraces it.

Of course in a few weeks if Jack has found that hot streak he has always found his way into before then suddenly he'll be more in vogue and crap like this will go away somewhat. The fact is that Jack isn't exactly old himself and is playing some good ball too.


The only issue I've really seen so far is a lack of team coherency. I think that is why we see them settle on jumpers too often, where the TOs come from, and why so much of the offense seems disjointed.

Otherwise I think everyone has made good on what we expected their game to look like at this point, though Sarunas surprised us a little and Jack has been a lot better in everything than expected except shooting, which is oddly really, really low (yes, even for him haters).

I have to admit I'm a lot less worried now than I was coming out of preseason. I can see how this team will get it together, and on the defensive end they've been a lot stronger than I expected and should only get better.

Coop
11-10-2006, 09:48 PM
Eric Gordon?

I like where your heads at. Let's get it done!

ajbry
11-10-2006, 10:04 PM
Seriously, you are a troll. You only posted this thread to voice your view on how Marquis is some amazing player waiting to break out while Jack is holding him back.

Jack is by far our best SG option and I just don't understand how the hell you fail to comprehend that. The man plays hurt, averages 16+ PPG the past 3 seasons, is a very good defender, and has nice range.

Just because he's a streaky shooter doesn't mean Marquis Daniels or Rawle Marshall are better, lol. Get a grip.

Pacesetter
11-10-2006, 10:04 PM
My prediction is that we'll get our shooting guard and center from the same stable.

D-BONE
11-10-2006, 10:28 PM
Who cares. Play Jack and Quis at the same time some. That's what I'd like to see. Hell, in tonght's Orlando game, I was watching hoping he'd get a few minutes (Quis that is) at point just to D up on Nelson when he got hot. They were wearing him out on JT for a while.

I guess I'd say my ideal future SG is probably not on the roster based on what I have seen so far, which is not a lot to go on. If forced for the near future, I'd still say Jack is the best bet. He's not playing bad this season.

Tonight he showed restraint several times and make key extra passes. His assists numbers are solid this year. He's kept under control so far, generally looks to be more team oriented, and plays reasonable D. In fact vs. Orlando I thought he played a perfect all around game for a #3 or #4 scoring option. In the second half anyway. Quis was key of the bench keeping us close in the first half, too.

BlueNGold
11-10-2006, 11:10 PM
Seriously, you are a troll. You only posted this thread to voice your view on how Marquis is some amazing player waiting to break out while Jack is holding him back.

Jack is by far our best SG option and I just don't understand how the hell you fail to comprehend that. The man plays hurt, averages 16+ PPG the past 3 seasons, is a very good defender, and has nice range.

Just because he's a streaky shooter doesn't mean Marquis Daniels or Rawle Marshall are better, lol. Get a grip.

There is not a large talent difference between Jack and Quis. That much is reflected in their compensation. However, Jack is ranked above Quis for now.

Jack is the better perimeter shooter for sure...but his streakiness subtracts much of the value of that advantage he has over Quis. Otherwise, it is largely a wash. Jack might be able to handle bigger guards, Quis might be better handling quick ones. Quis can handle the ball much better and can play PG. Jack cannot. Both are turnover prone. Both can make assists. One has a felony charge, the other does not.

No, there is not a huge difference here. Not how you describe it at least.

...and although Marshall is my favorite, he cannot be considered at that level until he proves much, much more.

ajbry
11-10-2006, 11:38 PM
I understand that, definitely. Quis is a nice player. However, rushing to judge him against Jack is just ridiculous.

Marquis is an unproven commodity. Jack is proven.

All of these hypothetical discussions are getting a bit out of hand around here, more than previous seasons it seems. I don't want to discuss when Harrison will be a dominant All-Star center, when Danny is going to become a bust, and when Marquis will be an All-Defensive player. Those are just erroneous debates.

Alpolloloco
11-10-2006, 11:51 PM
I understand that, definitely. Quis is a nice player. However, rushing to judge him against Jack is just ridiculous.

Marquis is an unproven commodity. Jack is proven.

All of these hypothetical discussions are getting a bit out of hand around here, more than previous seasons it seems. I don't want to discuss when Harrison will be a dominant All-Star center, when Danny is going to become a bust, and when Marquis will be an All-Defensive player. Those are just erroneous debates.

Jack is proven?

PacersFan83
11-11-2006, 12:16 AM
Yes. Proven to have a terrible shot selection, proven to be turnover prone, and proven to love to argue with officials, and proven to love to fight, whether it's with 3-fingered mutants or opposing teams fans.

ajbry
11-11-2006, 12:22 AM
Proven to play essentially every damn game, put points on the board, contribute to team chemistry, and has won a championship.

Ah, the Jack haters. Gotta love them.

PacersFan83
11-11-2006, 12:22 AM
Seriously, you are a troll.

:rolleyes:



You only posted this thread to voice your view on how Marquis is some amazing player waiting to break out while Jack is holding him back.

Jack is by far our best SG option and I just don't understand how the hell you fail to comprehend that. The man plays hurt, averages 16+ PPG the past 3 seasons, is a very good defender, and has nice range.

Just because he's a streaky shooter doesn't mean Marquis Daniels or Rawle Marshall are better, lol. Get a grip.


You are Stephen Jackson. aren't you?

ajbry
11-11-2006, 12:25 AM
:rolleyes:





You are Stephen Jackson. aren't you?

That's an original one. :laugh:

Anthem
11-11-2006, 12:26 AM
Jack is proven?
More than Sarunas.

Naptown_Seth
11-11-2006, 12:52 AM
Who cares. Play Jack and Quis at the same time some. That's what I'd like to see. Hell, in tonght's Orlando game, I was watching hoping he'd get a few minutes (Quis that is) at point just to D up on Nelson when he got hot. They were wearing him out on JT for a while.

I guess I'd say my ideal future SG is probably not on the roster based on what I have seen so far, which is not a lot to go on. If forced for the near future, I'd still say Jack is the best bet. He's not playing bad this season.

Tonight he showed restraint several times and make key extra passes. His assists numbers are solid this year. He's kept under control so far, generally looks to be more team oriented, and plays reasonable D. In fact vs. Orlando I thought he played a perfect all around game for a #3 or #4 scoring option. In the second half anyway. Quis was key of the bench keeping us close in the first half, too.

Armstrong got to enjoy a little Nelson sandwich too. Dude just went to the Jordan zone for awhile. Pull up deep, pop. Dribble in and pull up, pop. Fall down into the front row, buy some cotton candy, grab a cell phone and call your mom, run to the restroom and accidentically kick the ball toward the rim and pop.

Don't get me wrong, Tinsley had his worst night so far and never could get much going. Just saying that Nelson's did a heat check on more than JT and came through scorching still.


Daniels had another night just like I discussed in the Daniels=McKey thread. He threw it away a few times, but on the whole he was a big part of the positive.


Jack was really outstanding again, despite the shooting. He lost at least 2 assists AT THE RIM when he fed Al in transition and he missed the shot under the hoop (a play that started with Jack stealing the ball when doubling Foster's man) and then when Armstrong missed that open transition layup. He still led the team with 6 assists.

I'm telling ya, Jack is playing his best OVERALL ball right now. He only forced 1 really tough 3 shot and many other times he passed up looks in search of something better. That 3 that Tins hit to give them the lead came off Jack passing up his own 3 look and sending it to JT instead.

And take note of Rick trying to find a game sealing GO TO play tonight. First it was Al since he was hot, but he couldn't get anything good and they went empty. So then they worked JO free for an elbow jumper (which he had working and is a great shot IMO) and he missed.

That led them to one of their best plays (IMO), the JO/Jack Give and Go. That is money. This time he forced Turk to the baseline then spun back on him to the lane, forcing Turk to save the layup by slapping at his bicep from behind.

This is how Jack helps and what makes him a solid SG. He can score at an extremely high rate out of the GnG or any play that results in him driving his man along the baseline. He's just really good at finding the spaces down there and has the moves to make it happen.

I don't blindly back him, I'll call out the bad plays like that forced 3, but unlike some I don't overlook the play right before that when he and Foster ran a brilliant 2 man game that ended in him feeding Jeff for the flush. The shot will get there, but in the meantime he's still working to make his on-court time productive.

Honestly in previous seasons if his shot was this off you'd be getting nothing out of him on either end.


Jack and Marquis looked pretty solid together tonight. Just like I think JT and Cabbages usually do as well.


Also there was Rawle. Didn't get much PT of course, but he is another SG that is very smooth/adept at getting to the basket. The 2 FTs he got were on a play that he was certain to get the bucket without the foul. I don't know if he'll be any better than Daniels as an outside threat, but he can play the game and like Jack and Quise he gets positive total production while he's out there even if its not as a pure shooter.

ajbry
11-11-2006, 01:12 AM
Seth, if I had 1% of your overall knowledge, it would save me a lot of arguments, lol. I appreciate your in-depth analysis as usual, excellent post.

PacersFan83
11-11-2006, 01:23 AM
Luckily this is not actually the case. He is in no way ball dominant, and he clearly shows restraint on his shot selection. He's put up a couple of long ones, but typically he'll pass them up in search of something juicier inside.

I still don't like him as the starting SG though, not unless Danny truly becomes a 38-40% shooting SF. I LOVE Daniels as the 6th man coming in behind the SG and SF however. That's a great role for him, one that should pay out in lots of playing time for a long time to come if he embraces it.

Of course in a few weeks if Jack has found that hot streak he has always found his way into before then suddenly he'll be more in vogue and crap like this will go away somewhat. The fact is that Jack isn't exactly old himself and is playing some good ball too.


The only issue I've really seen so far is a lack of team coherency. I think that is why we see them settle on jumpers too often, where the TOs come from, and why so much of the offense seems disjointed.

Otherwise I think everyone has made good on what we expected their game to look like at this point, though Sarunas surprised us a little and Jack has been a lot better in everything than expected except shooting, which is oddly really, really low (yes, even for him haters).

I have to admit I'm a lot less worried now than I was coming out of preseason. I can see how this team will get it together, and on the defensive end they've been a lot stronger than I expected and should only get better.

Quis is Larry Hughes with a better shot selection and half the salary.

owl
11-11-2006, 07:53 AM
For now Jax is the best starting option for the sg but only because he is playing the team game so well. Best free throw shooter on the team is
Rawle. I just like what this kid brings to the table.

D-BONE
11-11-2006, 08:07 AM
Quis is Larry Hughes with a better shot selection and half the salary.

How many more times are you going to say this? I just can't see how this comparison can be valid. When has Quis even when he's got his starting stint in Dallas ever put up (healthy) Larry Hughes numbers?

Yes, maybe I can grant you that there are some very general similarities-physical attributes, general skill sets, etc-but while Hughes is not a dynamite outside shooter, I still think he trumps Quis there. In other words, I think your grossly underestimating Hughes in this analogy.

rel
11-11-2006, 09:13 AM
By the way Jack has been playing lately, i'm fine with him being our starter...

...lets hope he keeps it up

BlueNGold
11-11-2006, 09:19 AM
By the way Jack has been playing lately, i'm fine with him being our starter...

...lets hope he keeps it up

I have wanted him gone for awhile, but I would even agree. He seems to have changed the style of his play and his interactions with the refs. It is kind of funny how he vigorously claps instead of complaining. I like what I see compared to last year.

Maybe he has finally started to grow up. It will be sad for all of us if it was too late.

Anthem
11-11-2006, 10:13 AM
How did the crowd respond to Jack tonight?

ALF68
11-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Armstrong got to enjoy a little Nelson sandwich too. Dude just went to the Jordan zone for awhile. Pull up deep, pop. Dribble in and pull up, pop. Fall down into the front row, buy some cotton candy, grab a cell phone and call your mom, run to the restroom and accidentically kick the ball toward the rim and pop.

Don't get me wrong, Tinsley had his worst night so far and never could get much going. Just saying that Nelson's did a heat check on more than JT and came through scorching still.


Daniels had another night just like I discussed in the Daniels=McKey thread. He threw it away a few times, but on the whole he was a big part of the positive.


Jack was really outstanding again, despite the shooting. He lost at least 2 assists AT THE RIM when he fed Al in transition and he missed the shot under the hoop (a play that started with Jack stealing the ball when doubling Foster's man) and then when Armstrong missed that open transition layup. He still led the team with 6 assists.

I'm telling ya, Jack is playing his best OVERALL ball right now. He only forced 1 really tough 3 shot and many other times he passed up looks in search of something better. That 3 that Tins hit to give them the lead came off Jack passing up his own 3 look and sending it to JT instead.

And take note of Rick trying to find a game sealing GO TO play tonight. First it was Al since he was hot, but he couldn't get anything good and they went empty. So then they worked JO free for an elbow jumper (which he had working and is a great shot IMO) and he missed.

That led them to one of their best plays (IMO), the JO/Jack Give and Go. That is money. This time he forced Turk to the baseline then spun back on him to the lane, forcing Turk to save the layup by slapping at his bicep from behind.

This is how Jack helps and what makes him a solid SG. He can score at an extremely high rate out of the GnG or any play that results in him driving his man along the baseline. He's just really good at finding the spaces down there and has the moves to make it happen.

I don't blindly back him, I'll call out the bad plays like that forced 3, but unlike some I don't overlook the play right before that when he and Foster ran a brilliant 2 man game that ended in him feeding Jeff for the flush. The shot will get there, but in the meantime he's still working to make his on-court time productive.

Honestly in previous seasons if his shot was this off you'd be getting nothing out of him on either end.


Jack and Marquis looked pretty solid together tonight. Just like I think JT and Cabbages usually do as well.


Also there was Rawle. Didn't get much PT of course, but he is another SG that is very smooth/adept at getting to the basket. The 2 FTs he got were on a play that he was certain to get the bucket without the foul. I don't know if he'll be any better than Daniels as an outside threat, but he can play the game and like Jack and Quise he gets positive total production while he's out there even if its not as a pure shooter.
Wow, from reading this post you might conclude that Jax single handed won this game. The beat goes on.

BlueNGold
11-11-2006, 11:53 AM
Wow, from reading this post you might conclude that Jax single handed won this game. The beat goes on.

I wouldn't get too carried away either. At best, he was the 3rd best player on the squad behind Al and Granger. Foster arguably played as well or better considering Jack's cold shooting. Nevertheless, a good game by Jack.

D-BONE
11-11-2006, 12:41 PM
At best, he was the 3rd best player on the squad behind Al and Granger.

Isn't that precisely what many have contended he was initially brought here to do and the role he is most equipped to play? I hope things continue to go in their current direction for him. This is exactly what we need from him-a contributing but controlled 3rd/4th option offensively.