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FlavaDave
11-10-2006, 11:21 AM
"As competitive as Kobe Bryant is, there has to be a part of him that hates the fact that he didn't take a shot at Raja Bell for clotheslining him. Yes, he did the "right" thing, but it came at a price. He knows it. Raja knows it. And we know it. People call guys like Ron Artest or Zinedine Zidane selfish, stupid and unstable. The one word you won't hear, though, is "soft", and there's a reason for that. I'm not advocating violence -- I walked away, remember -- but we can't ignore the fact that just as there's a cost to taking a swing, there's a cost to turning the other cheek."

In the full article, there is discussion of the Jackson incident.

You know, I like these articles more than articles about X's and O's and who the next breakout player will be. It's a short read; give it a shot.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=granderson/061109)

Eindar
11-10-2006, 11:59 AM
The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.

The second rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club.

:)

This has been something men have wrestled with for years.

SycamoreKen
11-10-2006, 12:24 PM
Wow, he actually has regrets about not putting his career and, more importantly, his family's welfare at risk over a stupid pickup game because the guys he plays ball with might think he is soft? I'm glad he did the right thing and hope he teaches his son to do the same. I know enough parents are not. The "you aren't a man if you don't fight" mantra is hurting more boys than anything outside of dad not being there at all.

FlavaDave
11-10-2006, 12:43 PM
Wow, he actually has regrets about not putting his career and, more importantly, his family's welfare at risk over a stupid pickup game because the guys he plays ball with might think he is soft? I'm glad he did the right thing and hope he teaches his son to do the same. I know enough parents are not. The "you aren't a man if you don't fight" mantra is hurting more boys than anything outside of dad not being there at all.


Logically, it is an easy decision. He even admits as much.

But he also admits that part of him feels conflicted. You can't control your feelings. You can control your actions.

His actions are under control. But to control the problem, it's also important to acknolwedge the feeling.

SycamoreKen
11-10-2006, 02:19 PM
Logically, it is an easy decision. He even admits as much.

But he also admits that part of him feels conflicted. You can't control your feelings. You can control your actions.

His actions are under control. But to control the problem, it's also important to acknolwedge the feeling.

I understand and agree. I still think he is making too big a deal about the feeling over the action.

Naptown_Seth
11-10-2006, 07:41 PM
I understand and agree. I still think he is making too big a deal about the feeling over the action.
He's learning a totally new paradigm from the one he was raised in. That's the issue. It's easy for us to see the issues from the outside, but when that's the structure you were raised in it is the "normal, healthy" view.

And honestly it's not that alien to the rest of American culture, and it goes back well beyond the last 10-20 years. Used to be a time when a guy like Cagney had to poke a guy in the face just so everyone else wouldn't think he was weak. Heck, half the plot behind White Heat was that he couldn't let the gang see that he was weak due to his headaches and mother complex.


Of course I know that you understand and agree with most/all of this Ken.


Great article, one bit I really liked...
Again, I'm not advocating violence. But whether you're talking about a professional athlete or a gym rat, as men get older, with more responsibilities, manhood becomes a trickier thing to navigate, especially if you grew up in an environment where hostility was the currency of choice.
There is a definite contradiction between the tough-guy man you are supposed to be in order to have success in your teens and twenties and the responsible adult you are supposed to be when you get older and/or take on a family.

PacerMan
11-11-2006, 12:17 PM
"As competitive as Kobe Bryant is, there has to be a part of him that hates the fact that he didn't take a shot at Raja Bell for clotheslining him. Yes, he did the "right" thing, but it came at a price. He knows it. Raja knows it. And we know it. People call guys like Ron Artest or Zinedine Zidane selfish, stupid and unstable. The one word you won't hear, though, is "soft", and there's a reason for that. I'm not advocating violence -- I walked away, remember -- but we can't ignore the fact that just as there's a cost to taking a swing, there's a cost to turning the other cheek."

In the full article, there is discussion of the Jackson incident.

You know, I like these articles more than articles about X's and O's and who the next breakout player will be. It's a short read; give it a shot.

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=granderson/061109)

Totally disagree. You make or break your softness(or not) with your GAME. Not with whether you hit someone that fouled you. That's messed up thinking.
And Ron DID walk away from Big Ben that just leveled him, but went after a NORMAL sized person that hit him with a cup. Yeh, he's a real badass.

PacerMan
11-11-2006, 12:20 PM
Logically, it is an easy decision. He even admits as much.

But he also admits that part of him feels conflicted. You can't control your feelings. You can control your actions.

His actions are under control. But to control the problem, it's also important to acknolwedge the feeling.

You most certainly can control your feelings! We do it all the time in day to day life. It's part of self preservation and living in a civil society.
THe only thing he was conflicted about is the macho bull***** that passes for manhood in the NBA these days.

PacerMan
11-11-2006, 12:27 PM
He's learning a totally new paradigm from the one he was raised in. That's the issue. It's easy for us to see the issues from the outside, but when that's the structure you were raised in it is the "normal, healthy" view.

And honestly it's not that alien to the rest of American culture, and it goes back well beyond the last 10-20 years. Used to be a time when a guy like Cagney had to poke a guy in the face just so everyone else wouldn't think he was weak. Heck, half the plot behind White Heat was that he couldn't let the gang see that he was weak due to his headaches and mother complex.


What was he raised in then? Are you saying he's some poor kid that grew up on the streets?? Wasn't his father a professional athlete and didn't he grow up in a privilaged environment?

Secondly, it was't CAGNEY poking a guy, it was the criminal character he was portraying!