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Will Galen
11-05-2006, 06:40 AM
To get right to the point the reserves were standing up and blocking the fans view. It's the third paragraph from the bottom.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/11052006/sports/knicks/home_groan_knicks_marc_berman.htm


HOME GROAN
FANS BOO MARBURY IN GARDEN OPENER
By MARC BERMAN

BASKET CASE: Indiana's Darrell Armstrong glides past Stephon Marbury in the fourth quarter of the Knicks' 109-95 loss last night at the Garden.November 5, 2006 -- Stephon Marbury endorses a revolutionary $15 sneaker, but right now Garden fans couldn't care less.

All they care about now is Marbury playing at his former All-Star level and not the schlock he carried into the court last night which prompted rampant booing from the sold-out Garden during the Knicks' atrocious home opener.

For one night, Isiah Thomas was spared the "venom" he talked about before the game. Instead, his point guard received all the wrath, with some fans even coming up with the creative "Fire Marbury" chant with 2:22 left after he committed his sixth turnover, throwing the ball high and out of bounds on a fastbreak.

The Knicks were booed collectively, too, but Marbury became the scapegoat during their flashback-to-last-season 109-95 disgrace against the Pacers that dropped them to 1-2, - below .500, perhaps for the rest of the season. The Spurs are on deck tomorrow.

Marbury finished with four points, shooting 1 of 9 with just one assist and six turnovers.

"I can't be mad at them for me playing like garbage," Marbury said. "Was I surprised? They came here to see us win. They didn't come to see us lose. I knew I was going to get it. I had a bad game."

It was supposed to be a special night for Marbury, who received a freshly bought pair of his "Starbury Ones" from a student who had won an academic contest. But he was jeered resolutely during the fourth quarter. He even booted a ball out of frustration, receiving a technical foul.

"I can't explain it," said Marbury, who scored just nine points Friday in Atlanta. "I just played badly. I have to rebound from this game to the next game."

With a struggling Marbury on the bench and Nate Robinson (13 points) and Steve Francis (25 points) providing a spark, the Knicks kept hanging around in the third quarter. Robinson put the Garden in a tizzy when he sank a 3-pointer from the top of the key to cut the deficit to 77-76 entering the fourth quarter.


Surprisingly, perhaps foolishly, Thomas put Marbury back in with 10:31 left, the club down 79-76. Marbury was booed, and the team went downhill again. Marbury missed wildly on a runner, then a bounce pass went out of bounds, drawing boos from the fans.

The Pacers jumped to an 88-78 lead after Marbury made a horrible pass, right into the hands of the aging Darrell Armstrong, who raced in for a fastbreak layup.

At that point, Marbury kicked the ball on a line drive right to Thomas, who caught it, prompting the referees to call a technical foul on Marbury. "I was frustrated because I wasn't making the plays I normally make," he said.

"We'll discuss that [today]," said Thomas, who is staging an unplanned Sunday practice following the back-to-back losses, an indication of the Knicks coach's rage.

When Quentin Richardson's name was announced on the P.A. subbing for Marbury midway through the fourth, the crowd cheered. But the Knicks continued to struggle, and when Thomas went back to Marbury with 4:11 left, he was again was greeted with jeers.

"He was pressing a bit and trying to make things happen and I was encouraging him to," Thomas said. "I wanted him to get involved in the game and have the type of game he's capable of having."

During pregame introductions, reserves David Lee and Robinson heard the loudest cheers, not Marbury.

It also got ugly with fans by the Pacers' bench. The Pacers, involved in the infamous 2004 Motown fan brawl, angered a group of spectators by the bench because their reserves were standing up through most of the fourth quarter blocking the fans' views.

Players and fans exchanged angry words. The incident prompted five Garden security guards to rush over and reprimand the fans. When the game ended, a flank of security guards stood between the fans and the Pacers' bench to avoid any further chaos.

"It's tough to lose a game the way we did," said Eddy Curry, who scored 22 points. "Even though we have 79 more games, it's tough to get over."

Will Galen
11-05-2006, 07:19 AM
Heres a Daily News article on the game. The article mentions the Pacers celebrating at the end but says it wasn't really noteworthy.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/468538p-394282c.html

It's long night, longer season

Soft as ever, Knicks going nowhere
By Filip Bondy

Isiah Thomas is now 1-2 as Knicks coach.

Knicks fans have come to ask very little from their team. A fast break here. A stop there. If the Knicks can just stay close, the corporate crowd gets excited, puts down the menus and forgives all those turnovers and defensive walkabouts. Close is really all that is expected these days.
That is the general philosophy around the Garden, not just in the stands but in the front office. If only the Knicks don't embarrass themselves, don't fall too far behind too soon, then this season and this regime remain salvageable.

"I look at my job as preparing these guys for the marathon," Thomas said before the Knicks dropped an ugly home opener to Indiana, 109-95. "If we get down four or five games, we have enough inside us. We can't let a bad month or a bad couple of weeks stop that. We don't prepare to go that route, but if that happens we'll be resilient."

Thomas spent much of the day deflating expectations to below street level, down the escalator and beneath the IND tracks. And there was a reason for that, we were told. The GM explained he was the only Knicks executive who had ever dared to rebuild an NBA franchise in New York.

"No one's tried to do it with the exception of me," Thomas said.

It would be nice now to report that the Knicks were rebuilt and reborn at least a bit last night under Thomas into something dynamic, or at least palatable, that there was a home opener resembling real basketball played at the Garden.

The Knicks, sad to write, are very much the Knicks again, which means they are unwatchable. They lost to a generic opponent, the Pacers, who were playing below average on the road.

You could get drunk on the boos.

Here is an early review of the production, with a new director and the same old cast: Zero stars.

Certainly not Stephon Marbury, who was awful again. Marbury was 1-for-9 and invisible at both ends of the court. Not Channing Frye, the erstwhile golden rookie, who played only 27 minutes.

When the mess was done, Thomas made a side issue of the Pacers' chest-pounding celebration, which was not particularly noteworthy.

"This is an unmerciful league," Thomas said. "One day we'll be the team that's on top, doing the stepping and kicking. It's going to be a hard kick and a hard step."

That kicking and stepping stuff may have to wait some time. The Knicks now begin a tough stretch of games likely to include so many losses, we will begin to lose track and possibly lose interest.

The problems are obvious, and uncorrected. The Knicks are inherently lousy, which is not to be confused with not playing up to their potential. They don't have players with winning portfolios. They don't do fundamentals, like interior defense. Whatever little bit of talent they do have, it overlaps.

And so the Garden fans jeered last night, and at the end were chanting for Thomas' head again. The Knicks never led. They missed 14 of 19 shots in the opening period. Marbury was first booed following his second turnover, after just four minutes.

"Of course they're going to get on me," Marbury said. "I had a bad game."

The Knicks mounted a comeback at the end of the third quarter, drew within a point. The fans were thrilled with this, distracted again from reality. But then the Knicks performed a quick, final fade against a puzzling zone.

The Knicks' upcoming schedule includes two games in the next week against the Spurs, plus road games at Denver and Houston. While the team no longer can match Larry Brown's miserable 0-5 start, there are other low-water marks from last season, like 5-11 and 7-21, not yet out of submersible reach.

Somehow, Thomas must continue to sell an illusion, convince experts this Knick roster actually has potential. He must also avoid such a miserable finish that the Knicks hand over a top-three pick again to the Bulls in June - yet another part of the Eddy Curry-in-a-hurry deal.

Curry had a decent game on offense last night, though he shot several three-foot hooks from four feet out. The bigger problem remains his defensive presence, or lack thereof. Impossibly, he doesn't clog the paint, despite his sheer bulk. Jermaine O'Neal and Al Harrington often flew down the baseline for uncontested layups.

Same Curry, same Knicks. It is November, and they are still softer than a summer's breeze.

Will Galen
11-05-2006, 07:35 AM
In this article the Pacers are called a mediocre team playing mediocre ball.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061105/COLUMNIST03/611050382/1005/SPORTS

Good old days looking great to Knicks fans

NEW YORK - Believe it or not, these fans used to mock Patrick Ewing. They used to shout and scream about the notion - however ill-conceived - that an aging, limping Hall of Famer still good for 18 points and 10 rebounds a night was weighing down a contender with confetti in its eyes.

That passed for a problem back then, when the playoffs weren't a matter of if, but how far. Right now, how much would a Knicks crowd pay for the privilege of watching Ewing and his frayed Achilles' stagger toward a sure first-round playoff series with the possibility of more?

Paging Greg Oden. ... Mr. Greg Oden, please.

Oh, that's right, the Knicks' first-round pick in the next draft will likely go to the Bulls, which means Oden will likely land in Chicago to torment New York, Michael Jordan style, for a good 15 years. The Knicks' luck isn't any better than their roster, a truth as real as their home-opening demise.

The Pacers beat the Knicks last night, 109-95, because Al Harrington - a coveted Isiah prospect who got away - dropped 32 points on them, and because Stephon Marbury - a coveted Isiah prospect who didn't get away - made some wretched choices in the fourth quarter, including a drop-kick of the ball that earned him a technical and a seat on Isiah's pine.

The Knicks didn't have a single lead all night, not one. Jamaal Tinsley had as many assists (14) as the 10 playing Knicks combined. A mediocre Pacers team playing mediocre ball blew out the home team and laughed its way down the hall.

But hey, there's that master rebuilding plan to fall back on, the one guaranteeing a title by 2037. "Everyone said that this would be probably the most difficult challenge, to try to rebuild in New York," Thomas said. "I think I'm the first GM that New York has had in quite some time that has really uttered those words. ..."

Nobody knows what's being rebuilt here. Everybody's quite sure it isn't a winning team.

"We'll have a long memory and one day we'll be the team that's on top doing the kicking and stepping," Thomas said. "We'll be pretty unforgiving when we get to the top."

You don't need a Surgeon General's warning to know you shouldn't hold your breath waiting for that.

At the opening tip, the Knicks' home was a buzz-free Garden of apathy. The serial losing had taken a heavy toll, leaving the Knicks in the embarrassing position of sweating out a sellout.

Tickets were still available in the hours before game time, an indictment of the Don Chaney-Lenny Wilkens-Larry Brown Knicks. But mostly an indictment of the Isiah Thomas Knicks, the money pit of a team that can't even sell the eighth playoff seed in the East as a realistic goal.

That's bad. Real bad. Eddie Lee Wilkins and Ken "The Animal" Bannister bad.

Before the game, Thomas embraced a tone that sounded eerily familiar to the preseason one Fred Wilpon always adopted during the bad old days at Shea.

"We want to play meaningful games in September," Wilpon would say back then.

"We want to be playing meaningful games in March and April," Thomas said last night.

He's got to make his team relevant long before that. As one of the league's flagship franchises, and as the lead tenant of a building it shamelessly calls the world's most famous arena, the Knicks have a civic responsibility to show some degree of competence.

"A public trust," Thomas called it. A bond the Knicks break as often as a huddle.

Over the last five years, they haven't managed a single season of at least 40 victories. So they tried to low-key it for the home opener, mindful of the disaster that was last year's home opener under the not-so-dearly-departed Brown.

The scoreboard intros were nearly as sleep-inducing as the Knicks' early play. In the first quarter, the Pacers went to the basket without fear of any tax being imposed. The Knicks didn't challenge a single shot, never mind block one. Jeff Foster, of all people, came roaring down the lane on a fast break and threw down a dunk that stirred the crowd.

Only the Knicks can make Jeff Foster feel like LeBron James for even three seconds of his NBA career.

For the record, the ceremonial first boos were thrown out by the Garden crowd with 5:19 left in the first, this after the Knicks called time out with Indiana holding a 16-8 lead. But Thomas was fully expecting the onslaught. He recalled his glory years as a Bad Boy Piston, when the Garden "was the only arena you play in as a player where the visiting team never gets booed.

"The attention and the applause and the venom is always directed at the home team. And (for) the visiting team, it's always a comfortable place to come in and play because nobody really pays any attention to you. It's not like when you go to Chicago or Detroit or Boston. ..."

No, it's not like that at all. When you go to Chicago or Detroit or Boston, you actually see championship banners from seasons less Jurassic than 1973.

It looks like this drought could reach Chicago Cubs proportions. The Knicks compensate for their lack of talent with a lack of resolve.

Somehow, some way, Thomas has to do enough with this team to save his job. His judge and jury, James Dolan, was slumped in his usual front-row seat under the Eighth Avenue hoop, wearing the familiar body language of an owner without a clue.

Does anyone truly believe this management team can return to the Garden the energy and hope that framed the Pat Riley-Jeff Van Gundy years?

"When you come to see a Knicks basketball game," Thomas said, "you definitely want to give the fans a show. You're on Broadway. But unfortunately for us, the other team feels that way, too."

So the Pacers dropped the curtain, and the hammer, on the Knicks' grand debut. In the end, the Garden crowd booed Marbury and the Knicks off the court.

Where's Old Man Ewing when you need him?

Ian O'Connor is a sports columnist for The Journal News. He can be reached at ioconnor@lohud.com.

RamBo_Lamar
11-05-2006, 08:17 AM
It also got ugly with fans by the Pacers' bench. The Pacers, involved in the infamous 2004 Motown fan brawl, angered a group of spectators by the bench because their reserves were standing up through most of the fourth quarter blocking the fans' views.

Players and fans exchanged angry words. The incident prompted five Garden security guards to rush over and reprimand the fans. When the game ended, a flank of security guards stood between the fans and the Pacers' bench to avoid any further chaos.

My first reaction to this would be to say our guys did nothing wrong, and if
the d****ss NY fans don't want their view blocked, then don't sit behind
the bench. Players are going to stand when they get hyped, and I haven't
heard of any rule against that.

I would be surprised if those same fans weren't sitting there taunting our
bench, and hurling insults at them the entire evening. Those seats are
quite expensive, but that doesn't give them the right to act like imbeciles
(try telling them that - lol).

hoopsforlife
11-05-2006, 08:55 AM
They should have thanked them. It was more of a mercy act than an insult. :lol:

Eindar
11-05-2006, 09:07 AM
Just goes to show you the NY media is merciless. Yes New York lost, but Marbury had a bad game and it was still close until near the end of the game. They competed against a perennial playoff team, but the media doesn't even bother with that. Also goes to show you also how much ill-will Thomas has garnered in his tenure.

sixthman
11-05-2006, 09:17 AM
Thanks for the articles, Will. It's always good to see what sports writers are saying about our Pacers, even if they are not giving us five-star reviews.

Kegboy
11-05-2006, 10:07 AM
Now, see, if they sat in the balcony, they wouldn't have to worry about obstructed views. :-p

DisplacedKnick
11-05-2006, 10:11 AM
Knick fans were more PO'd by NY - Pacers just happened to be conveniently located to take their frustrations out on.

The bench probably did NY a public service - instead of going home and yelling at their wives, they got it out of their systems at the game.

Hicks
11-05-2006, 10:29 AM
I'm amazed (slightly) that Zeke and his players are acting like we showboated or celebrated too much at the end. They're too self-absorbed to realize it wasn't about beating them. It was about our team supporting each other and happy that they did well.

aceace
11-05-2006, 10:43 AM
They should have thanked them. It was more of a mercy act than an insult. :lol:Thats hilarious:D

Pacesetter
11-05-2006, 12:36 PM
$330 is a lot of money to watch the backs of the opponents. Knowing Knicks fans though, they were probably heckling the players throughout the game, so the players just decided to heckle back!

grace
11-05-2006, 01:19 PM
I'm amazed (slightly) that Zeke and his players are acting like we showboated or celebrated too much at the end. They're too self-absorbed to realize it wasn't about beating them. It was about our team supporting each other and happy that they did well.

Personally, I thought they looked a little stupid getting so excited about beating the Knicks. I mean they're the Knicks. Big friggin' deal.

RamBo_Lamar
11-05-2006, 02:13 PM
Personally, I thought they looked a little stupid getting so excited about beating the Knicks. I mean they're the Knicks. Big friggin' deal. :blahblah:

Didn't you read what you quoted?


They're too self-absorbed to realize it wasn't about beating them. It was about our team supporting each other and happy that they did well.And as they should.

Robertmto
11-05-2006, 02:21 PM
Fans in courtside seats from EVERY city heckle the players; you guys are making it sound like it's only the NY fans.

grace
11-05-2006, 02:32 PM
Didn't you read what you quoted?

Yes I read it. I still say they looked stupid.


Fans in courtside seats from EVERY city heckle the players; you guys are making it sound like it's only the NY fans.

Just like how the articles acted like the Pacers players are the only one who stand up during games.

Bball
11-05-2006, 05:20 PM
Yes I read it. I still say they looked stupid.



Just like how the articles acted like the Pacers players are the only one who stand up during games.

Knicks fans should complain to management about the Knicks team themselves not doing anything to make the Pacers sit down... such as actually outscoring the Pacers and taking away anything for the Pacers to cheer about.

-Bball

Fool
11-06-2006, 10:53 AM
Grace seems to have a loooooong list of things she thinks make people look stupid when at a basketball game.

Naptown_Seth
11-06-2006, 11:28 AM
Personally, I thought they looked a little stupid getting so excited about beating the Knicks. I mean they're the Knicks. Big friggin' deal.
Get a clue or at least get consistant. How sour does a person have to be to spin ARMSTRONG (he was the first guy up and cheering starting right about minute ONE of the game) and the rest of the team acting like winning matters into a bad thing?

Sorry, but this reaction just really, really, really p****s me off because all we hear is that the fans want players that are a team and care and try hard and act like they want to be there.

Then they do it and you call them stupid. That's classier than San Diego.

Fun is back....unless Grace has something to say about it.


Hands up, who thinks the $300 ticket holders behind the KNICKS bench get mad when Curry stands and cheers during the 15 home wins they experience?

For the record, NO FANS fought with or in any way turned things ugly when Foster, Cabbages, Jack, Tins, et al were standing during the home opener, which they did do. They've done it all 3 games for anything remotely encouraging or positive.

Anthem
11-06-2006, 12:22 PM
Fun is back....unless Grace has something to say about it.
She'll come around. She's just jaded.

MagicRat
11-06-2006, 01:09 PM
She'll come around. She's just jaded.

It's tough when your team is on a losing streak and dwelling in the Central Division cellar..........

Anthem
11-06-2006, 01:54 PM
It's tough when your team is on a losing streak and dwelling in the Central Division cellar..........
I don't understand why they're not scoring more points. I always thought Big Ben's offensive game was just waiting to be unleashed.

Interestingly, Ben's only getting 0.7 blocks per game. Too soon to be sure, of course, but I've often wondered how far his blocks would go down if he wasn't in a system designed for him.

Fool
11-06-2006, 02:01 PM
Its only been three games (one, a blowout, in which he played very little) but its a legit concern to think that the Bulls won't be able to optimize his strengths in the first year.

Kegboy
11-06-2006, 07:18 PM
Get a clue or at least get consistant. How sour does a person have to be to spin ARMSTRONG (he was the first guy up and cheering starting right about minute ONE of the game) and the rest of the team acting like winning matters into a bad thing?

Sorry, but this reaction just really, really, really p****s me off because all we hear is that the fans want players that are a team and care and try hard and act like they want to be there.

Then they do it and you call them stupid. That's classier than San Diego.

Fun is back....unless Grace has something to say about it.


Hands up, who thinks the $300 ticket holders behind the KNICKS bench get mad when Curry stands and cheers during the 15 home wins they experience?

For the record, NO FANS fought with or in any way turned things ugly when Foster, Cabbages, Jack, Tins, et al were standing during the home opener, which they did do. They've done it all 3 games for anything remotely encouraging or positive.

Grow up. You're acting like your doppleganger.

8.9_seconds
11-06-2006, 09:10 PM
Grow up. You're acting like your doppleganger.

As much as I like and respect Grace,Seth does have a point somewhere in there. What do these guys have to do in order to win back some fans? No these aren't the guys from our 90's teams, but they are genuinely trying to be a team now. I didn't see the game though, so maybe they were being over the top, but even so, I'm glad to see the game is fun.

Big Smooth
11-06-2006, 10:14 PM
Grow up. You're acting like your doppleganger.

Meh, He made perfectly valid points.

Anthem
11-06-2006, 11:58 PM
As much as I like and respect Grace,Seth does have a point somewhere in there. What do these guys have to do in order to win back some fans?
I'll take "Keep it up for more than 3 games" for $1000, Alex.

Naptown_Seth
11-07-2006, 02:04 AM
Grow up. You're acting like your doppleganger.
Really? I'm immature because I am extremely annoyed by a fan that calls players "stupid" for cheering on their teammates?

Defend the point instead of telling me to grow up. I sincerely want to hear how this makes the players stupid, what is it about them standing and cheering on their teammates that's wrong? Go ahead, convince me. I'm happy to own up to being wrong. But the logic has to go beyond "grow up". I actually put reasoning behind my post, I didn't just snipe and run.


I understand that both of you are long time regulars, but then that's exactly why I would hold you to a higher standard. I stand by my view that you must be extremely sour to look at Armstrong cheering at the 11:20 mark of the 1st (because that's about when it started) and take the Knicks' fans side of it. I'm betting DA wasn't the one she had in mind when she said it, but he has been the most active "cheerleader" so far this season.

What bugs me more is that it seemed pretty clear to me that she thought this was a Knicks-game-only thing. It had NOTHING to do with beating the Knicks and everything to do with supporting teammates that were playing well (just the effort is even being cheered).

If they had been pouting away for 20 games and then all of the sudden started cheering late in a rout of the lowly Knicks, THEN I wouldn't have responded like I did.



I'll take "Keep it up for more than 3 games" for $1000, Alex.Now this is a valid point. I agree that just like everything else a new leaf doesn't get to turn instantly. You want to see some staying power.

However I do think that the will to support teammates feeds itself, even if there are some losing streaks. Unlike playing well, you can force the positive attitude along even if you don't feel like it, and eventually it will stick on its own. In the meantime I have little doubt that DA will continue to push it along and drag even the most down attitudes along with him.

Mordecaii
11-07-2006, 03:17 AM
I happen to completely agree with Seth. This isn't something we just saw against the Knicks. The players are genuinely cheering each other on when something good happens, it's not just that we were beating the Knicks. Do we really want our players sitting on the sidelines looking bored unless we're beating a good team?

Maybe we've gotten so used to our players not really caring that some of us don't realize it's not a good thing.

grace
11-07-2006, 12:23 PM
First of all I tried to reply to all this yesterday, but SBC crashed mid post.


Knicks fans should complain to management about the Knicks team themselves not doing anything to make the Pacers sit down... such as actually outscoring the Pacers and taking away anything for the Pacers to cheer about.

-Bball

They managed to get the lead down to one against the Pacers and then last night they outscored San Antonio something like 20-2 to get back into the game. Sure they lost, but they didn't lay down.


Grace seems to have a loooooong list of things she thinks make people look stupid when at a basketball game.

I have a list for that? What's on it?


Get a clue or at least get consistant. How sour does a person have to be to spin ARMSTRONG (he was the first guy up and cheering starting right about minute ONE of the game) and the rest of the team acting like winning matters into a bad thing?

Sorry, but this reaction just really, really, really p****s me off because all we hear is that the fans want players that are a team and care and try hard and act like they want to be there.

Then they do it and you call them stupid. That's classier than San Diego.

Fun is back....unless Grace has something to say about it.


Hands up, who thinks the $300 ticket holders behind the KNICKS bench get mad when Curry stands and cheers during the 15 home wins they experience?

For the record, NO FANS fought with or in any way turned things ugly when Foster, Cabbages, Jack, Tins, et al were standing during the home opener, which they did do. They've done it all 3 games for anything remotely encouraging or positive.

Stupid was probably a bad choice of words on my part. Do you like ridiculous better? I don't have any problem with standing up and cheering. Fans do it (at least they used to). There's no reason the players on the bench can't do it to. However, stand up and clap (don't jump all over each other) and then sit your *** down.

As for the fans who sit behind the benches I wouldn't expect fans of the home team to complain about the players standing up in front of them. (Although on more than one occasion I've heard Mark, Slick, or Kevin say they didn't see what was going on because Rick was standing in their way.) On the other hand when your team is getting its rear kicked and the opposing team is standing in your way jumping all over each other and waving their towels around acting like 3 year olds it doesn't surprise me that people get miffed.

By the way, I don't get the San Diego reference.


She'll come around. She's just jaded.

No I won't.


It's tough when your team is on a losing streak and dwelling in the Central Division cellar..........

Yes it does. :cry: But after last night we're only 1/2 game out of first. :yes:


As much as I like and respect Grace,Seth does have a point somewhere in there. What do these guys have to do in order to win back some fans?

Short of trading for Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Loul Deng, Tyrus Thomas, and Thabo Sefolosha (firing Bird and replacing Rick with Scott Skiles) I don't know.

grace
11-07-2006, 12:35 PM
Really? I'm immature because I am extremely annoyed by a fan that calls players "stupid" for cheering on their teammates?

I think he's annoyed because you attacked my opinion. You can disagree with an opinion, but it doesn't make it wrong.


I understand that both of you are long time regulars, but then that's exactly why I would hold you to a higher standard. I stand by my view that you must be extremely sour to look at Armstrong cheering at the 11:20 mark of the 1st (because that's about when it started) and take the Knicks' fans side of it. I'm betting DA wasn't the one she had in mind when she said it, but he has been the most active "cheerleader" so far this season.

I look at our relationship with the Pacers as a marriage. In my case I'm the bitter divorcee who has cut ties and moved on. Keboy (as far as I can tell) is the one who stays in a marriage even though he is getting very little if anything out of it.


What bugs me more is that it seemed pretty clear to me that she thought this was a KnicksdivorcéeKegboy-game-only thing.

Did I say anywhere that it was only about the Knicks? I commented on it because the Knicks game is the only game I've watched this year.

Fool
11-07-2006, 12:37 PM
I have a list for that? What's on it?


Off the top of my head. Booing, cheering, standing up, anything Rasheed does, I believe chanting "one more year" at a retirement celebration (though I'm not sure on that one). Are you kidding? You are in here all the time saying some fan or player at some game looked stupid for one thing or another.

I do think it got a bit hard on you in this thread. If I'd have known it would go beyond quips, I wouldn't have added mine.

naptownmenace
11-07-2006, 01:14 PM
All I want to know is does Will still think the Knicks will make the playoffs?
:laugh:


Isiah is a good draft talent evaluator and that's pretty much it. If the Knicks win over 30 games this year, he should win Coach of The Year!

Reggie4Three
11-07-2006, 03:54 PM
Coming into this season I was/am hanging on by a thread as a Pacers fan. I have enjoyed watching players pulling for their teammates so far. Anyone who doesn't understand the importance of this clearly doesn't understand team sports in general. In basketball . . . .

teammates pulling for one another and the team to succeed = good.
teammates concerned only about themselves and looking cool = bad.

We're only 3 games in but that is one positive change I've seen so far. It's one step closer to the focus of this team being back to where it should be, winning games, and away from where it has been with all the BS that's gone on the past couple of years.

Kegboy
11-07-2006, 11:03 PM
Well, this'll take a while.


Really? I'm immature because I am extremely annoyed by a fan that calls players "stupid" for cheering on their teammates?

Defend the point instead of telling me to grow up. I sincerely want to hear how this makes the players stupid, what is it about them standing and cheering on their teammates that's wrong? Go ahead, convince me. I'm happy to own up to being wrong.

Grace didn't call the players stupid. She said what they did "looked a little stupid", especially against such a crappy team.


But the logic has to go beyond "grow up". I actually put reasoning behind my post, I didn't just snipe and run.

Well, I'd had a crappy day at work, topped off by my sister calling me to say "everybody hates me", and she couldn't even respond because her internet went down (along with a number of my clients on the westside, btw. Stupid AT&T/SBC/Ameritech).

Imagine my surprise to see a respected poster attacking her for something she didn't even say. She didn't call our players stupid. I highly doubt either one of us ever complained about the players previous apathetic behavior, considering we spent most of our last year with tickets with her looking at her watch and me looking at the Pacemates. Well, there was the Phoenix game last year, but that was because it was embarrassing on the night Reggie's jersey was retired.


I understand that both of you are long time regulars, but then that's exactly why I would hold you to a higher standard.

It doesn't matter if someone has made 10 posts or 10,000, there's disagreeing with one's opinion, and attacking them because you disagree with said opinion. It reminded me of the Sassan-esque "You're not a real fan if you don't support the players 150%" line of thinking, hence the doppleganger reference. That's the difference between us and RATS.

I understand that many of you don't appreciate Grace's sour attitude, though I wouldn't be surprised if it's really because deep down you fear she speaks for many of the "casual" fans. But she has the right to her opinion. If you disagree, that's fine. If it "pisses you off", Ignore her. Don't worry, it won't offend her, she's probably already Ignored you. But don't mock and denigrate her and then expect not to **** me off.


I stand by my view that you must be extremely sour to look at Armstrong cheering at the 11:20 mark of the 1st (because that's about when it started) and take the Knicks' fans side of it. I'm betting DA wasn't the one she had in mind when she said it, but he has been the most active "cheerleader" so far this season.

Are we both extremely sour? You bet. I'll write up my Reasons Why list right after Hicks does that Pacers Digest Glossary. But, once again, for the newbies, the showstoppers were:

- TPTB not only fiddling while Rome burned, but then having the temerity to raise our ticket prices 60% the same week Reggie announced his retirement.
- David Stern literally lying to our faces (yes, in person), saying that Ron was "such a nice young man, such a caring person", then after throwing our franchise under the bus admitting he'd never met him.


What bugs me more is that it seemed pretty clear to me that she thought this was a Knicks-game-only thing. It had NOTHING to do with beating the Knicks and everything to do with supporting teammates that were playing well (just the effort is even being cheered).

If they had been pouting away for 20 games and then all of the sudden started cheering late in a rout of the lowly Knicks, THEN I wouldn't have responded like I did.


As she herself said, it wasn't about the Knicks. She said it "looked" stupid against such a lowly team, especially coming from a fan of another team.


I look at our relationship with the Pacers as a marriage. In my case I'm the bitter divorcee who has cut ties and moved on. Keboy (as far as I can tell) is the one who stays in a marriage even though he is getting very little if anything out of it.

Well, that's the most insulting thing I've read. ;) The difference between us is I grew up with the Pacers, it's in my blood, I can't cut those ties as easily. However, the whole "loveless marriage" is as good a metaphor as any. Maybe I'm just sticking it out for the kids, and only make it through the days by fantasizing about that girl from Cleveland.

Will Galen
11-07-2006, 11:43 PM
All I want to know is does Will still think the Knicks will make the playoffs?
:laugh:


Yeah. I didn't think they would get off to a good start.

SamBear
11-08-2006, 12:20 AM
Wow... those people sure like to boooo their knicks... they had their boo machine on when they played the Spurs too... :laugh:

Bball
11-08-2006, 01:08 AM
How mad could Grace be... Didn't Tony win Sunday?

-Bball

grace
11-08-2006, 01:29 AM
How mad could Grace be... Didn't Tony win Sunday?

-Bball

One hardly has anything to do with the other. Besides the Bulls lost to the Kings.

Naptown_Seth
11-08-2006, 02:59 AM
Did I say anywhere that it was only about the Knicks? I commented on it because the Knicks game is the only game I've watched this year.
Actually, that's exactly what you did. That was the ONLY reason I responded like that.

Personally, I thought they looked a little stupid getting so excited about beating the Knicks. I mean they're the Knicks. Big friggin' deal.

Kegboy, is it okay then if I say Grace "looked a little stupid" making her comment? Yeah, I didn't think so. Everyone sees this defense as splitting hairs and the mods would tear me a new one if I used that phrase and then defended it by saying that I didn't actually say she was stupid.


For the sake of peace I'm letting it go at that because I feel comfortable that I expressed my reasoning well enough. There is nothing more to be gained except pushing on a fight that is senseless. I didn't respond to Grace's post or yours specifically because it was either of you, other than in the sense that she's a longtime poster rather than a troll or newbie that I would just brush aside as intentionally stirring the pot.


However, I did jump back on specifically to talk about the incident itself and the TV commentary, which I just got to tonight via Tivo (still have the Philly game to watch most of too). This is not really meant to pile on, but some of it will make my original point. It's meant to be more about the original posts before Grace or I commented.


First, knowing about this discussion I'm watching the NY game from about the end of the 1st onward. As I said, Armstrong is up most of the game. Foster, Cabbages and Daniels are often up with them. This goes on in various forms all game long.

BUT IT CHANGES. In the 4th as the Knicks close the game up tight and the crowd gets into it (and note that the crowd is pretty excited to be beating the lowly Pacers, including the fans that are going to complain in just a bit). This really gets the bench into it.

So I notice that by the 6-7 minute mark the ENTIRE bench is up. I mean Jack, Tins, Baston, Foster, Daniels, Harrison, Marshall, Williams and Powell (the last 2 in suits of course). They have a wall blocking the first few rows and every time the ball comes to that end (Knicks offensive end no less) you can see the fans behind them standing up so they can actually see the play.

On some closer shots it looks like the bench is laughing and apparently hearing the fans yelling at them about this, which seems to have enhanced their enjoyment of standing. Again it started before this, but my bet is that the more the fans yelled at them to sit down, the more they stayed standing.

Anyway, after Granger pulls down a tough O-board and scores it to put them up by 11 (4:56) there is a cut to the bench. Jack is screaming, Tins clapping, Powell and Marshall high 5. Dudes are into it and the big energy play by DG.

So Denari and Clark notice this (as has the director since he cut to the shot during the game, and then runs it as a replay) and say the following...

DEN - "And look at that Pacers bench, Clark."
KEL - "Yeah. I watched it the last time... "
DEN - "I mean.."
KEL - "...we got a good look at 'em. Everybody up..."
DEN - "I mean we haven't seen a bench like that...in a while."
KEL - "Yeah. Great sight."

discuss play replay, then cut to replay of bench

KEL - "And there's (ha) the (ha ha) bench's reaction. They want this road win."

A minute later Denari mentions the intensity you can feel down on the floor. Then coming out of the Knicks out of bounds the Pacers bench is sitting (4:00), so they actually didn't stay standing in the fans way every second of the game just to be jerks or something.

Harrington O-board and score at 3:11 - bench back up. JO blocked shot, bench more rowdy. Knicks fans more PO'd and yelling at bench players out of game frustration more than anything. Wasn't just the fans because Curry picked up a tech on the play too.

Kegboy
11-08-2006, 06:09 PM
Kegboy, is it okay then if I say Grace "looked a little stupid" making her comment? Yeah, I didn't think so. Everyone sees this defense as splitting hairs and the mods would tear me a new one if I used that phrase and then defended it by saying that I didn't actually say she was stupid..

Actually, I see a big difference between saying "someone said something stupid" or "someone looked stupid doing something" and saying "someone is stupid." Someone saying or doing something stupid doesn't make them so, or else I'm a ****ing idiot.

Anthem
11-08-2006, 06:37 PM
I'm a ****ing idiot.
Well heck, Kegboy, I could have told you that! :D

Naptown_Seth
11-09-2006, 03:13 PM
Let me just add that I wasn't trying to make it a personal attack on Grace, and if she was hurt by it I apologize for the misunderstanding.

My focus is to rip on the idea, and more specifically I get worked up if I think someone is taking a hardline opinion (ie, harsh, angry, bitter, etc) without all the facts on the table (see "JO doesn't take charges" or "Rick doesn't play young players/deep rotations"). It has nothing to do with Grace or my opinion of her or her postings. I can't think of another posting by her that has put me off in the least.

I hope she understands that and doesn't take this as a commentary on herself as a forum member. Grace and Kegboy are obviously very active and interested PD regulars, which is appreciated.

Fool
11-09-2006, 03:17 PM
Someone saying or doing something stupid doesn't make them so, or else I'm a ****ing idiot.

Come on, can't we at least be mature enough not to spontaneously brag about our sexual lives.