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Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:46 AM
Larry Brown is now criticizing Rick Carlisle.

http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/142224-2766-036.html

Brown criticizes Carlisle
Detroit coach says Pacers' campaigning on Artest's behalf is not way to win award.


Pacers coach Rick Carlisle (left) called members of the media in support of forward Ron Artest for Defensive Player of the Year, which he won. -- John Harrell / Associated Press

Related content

• Pacers bide their time
• Pistons' Brown criticizes Pacers' Carlisle




By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com
April 29, 2004


Now Rick Carlisle is being double-teamed. But he's not looking for help.

Larry Brown joined in the criticism Wednesday of the Indiana Pacers' coach for his promotion of Ron Artest for Defensive Player of the Year, one day after Gregg Popovich's complaints were reported.

Popovich, speaking with a San Antonio radio station on Monday, accused Carlisle of producing "totally unsubstantiated" statistics to back Artest's candidacy and criticized him for calling some of the NBA media members who vote for the award.

Popovich had a leading candidate for the award in Bruce Bowen, while Brown had one in Ben Wallace -- who won the past two seasons while playing for Carlisle in Detroit.

Brown chimed in on the issue while talking with Detroit writers Wednesday.

"I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it.

"I have a lot of pride in what Ben has done, but stats are a bunch of baloney. Most people use toilet paper for that, or wrap dead fish up in it. But I would never take anything away from Ron Artest. He had a great year and Pop felt the same way."

Carlisle has been greatly amused by the fallout from Artest's award and feels no anger toward Popovich or Brown. He appeared Tuesday on the same San Antonio radio station that aired Popovich's original comments.

"It was a hoot," Carlisle said. "I had fun with it."

Carlisle, while not wanting to escalate the verbal jousting, stood behind the defensive statistic that Popovich and Brown ridiculed.

At his request, two members of his video staff, Rob Cleveland and Mike Mannix, reviewed each of Artest's defensive possessions over the course of the season and charted how his opponents fared. After about 100 combined hours of research they found that the players Artest guarded averaged 9.4 shots and 8.3 points per game, figures the NBA included in its news release for the defensive award.

"People throw out these bogus, unsubstantiated stats, so you give them a little static for it," Popovich told San Antonio writers Wednesday.

Carlisle said he doubted the research won the award for Artest, because Artest also was the leading vote-getter among the coaches, who select the all-defensive team.

Bowen and Wallace also were named to the first team.

"I'm glad to hear that both Larry and Pop voted for Ron for first-team all-defense, because I voted for Ben and Bowen first-team," Carlisle said.

Carlisle also defended his effort to call voters to support some of his players for postseason honors, something he also did two years ago while coaching the Pistons, but not last year.

"I'm a guy who knows this is a players' league and I'm going to support my players any way I can if I feel they're deserving," Carlisle said.

"I'm amused that Larry and Pop believe someone like me can have that kind of influence on the media, but I just don't see it."

Artest wanted to let the issue die Wednesday, but he took exception to Popovich's claim that he did not guard the opposing team's best offensive player most nights.

"I'm trying to think of one night I didn't," Artest said.

On Tuesday, Artest had offered to play Bowen one-on-one, with the winner taking the Defensive Player of the Year award. That notion was the subject of more humor.

"Neither one of them would probably score," Popovich said. "They'd probably both beat the hell out of each other. They'd be suspended for the next game."

Ultimately, Popovich's assertions about Artest were viewed as an attempt -- although perhaps belated -- to back his player for the honor.

"I feel like the whole organization was supporting me," Bowen told San Antonio writers. "Whenever you get a coach backing a player, it makes the player feel good to know that. It's sort of like saying I have your back in battle. I appreciate Pop for that. Pop was expressing his opinion, which he's entitled to.

"It just so happened it turned into a little circus, so to speak."

Call Star reporter Mark Montieth at (317) 444-6406.

Peck
04-29-2004, 11:01 AM
I don't think Larry meant anything bad. He just stated his opinion that it really shouldn't be done. He didn't say Rick was a bad person for doing it.

He also stood up for Ben, which is what you would expect. But he also gave Ron credit.

I don't think L.Brown will get into a tit for tat in the press with the Pacers. It's not been his style in the past.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 11:08 AM
Brown gave props to Artest regardless, and claims Pop did the same, but the problem is Pop didn't. He wrongfully claimed Artest is a fake and doesn't really guard the other team's best scorer at 2/3. He also claimed Ron wasn't tough. In other words, he was an ***.

Brown wasn't. Good for him. :)

Unclebuck
04-29-2004, 11:22 AM
Maybe Pop is correct, Artest did not guard the opponents best offensive player every night. Afterall Ronnie did not guard Garnett, Duncan or Shaq, but then again Bowen did not guard J.O, KG or Shaq.

Maybe Pop is trying get Artest to guard Duncan.

I'll make a deal with Pop. If the Pacers and Spurs meet in the Finals. Artest will guard Duncan as long as Bowen guards J.O. I like our chances in those matchups :devil:

Shade
04-29-2004, 03:56 PM
This will just make it all the sweeter when we kick Detroit's and San Antonio's asses. :devil:

Kstat
04-29-2004, 04:07 PM
Oh yeah, all because Larry had the GALL to state his opinion. Wow, whata RIP-JOB... :rolleyes:

Does the Indystar always have such misleading headlines?

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 04:40 PM
How's the headline misleading? :rolleyes:

It's three little words: Brown Criticizes Carlisle

And he did. What would you suggest the headline be? :rolleyes:

Suaveness
04-29-2004, 04:42 PM
Oh yeah, all because Larry had the GALL to state his opinion. Wow, whata RIP-JOB... :rolleyes:

Does the Indystar always have such misleading headlines?

It's also nice to state his opinion by discrediting an opposing coach's view, especially when one coach did it days before. Seems as though things just want to pile up, don't they?

If people have a problem with the way that Carlisle does things, tell it to him straight to his face, not by making an *** of yourself through the media. Morons.

I think Conrad puts it nicely:

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_040429.html

Q. (Spurs coach Gregg) Popovich recently sounded off about his disgust for (Rick) Carlisle’s award-campaigning. What business is it of his? And why would it matter to Pop? Is campaigning for awards that bad? (From Scott in Toronto, Canada)

A. Larry Brown joined Popovich (his U.S. Olympic Team assistant) yesterday, aligning against Carlisle’s campaign on behalf of Artest for Defensive Player of the Year while also criticizing the statistics the Pacers coach asked his film crew to break down. Among other things, Brown said, the stats “are a bunch of baloney. Most people use toilet paper for that or to wrap dead fish.” Of course, the two coaches protesting are the ones with players they felt should’ve, or could’ve, won the award – Bruce Bowen of the Spurs and Ben Wallace of the Pistons.

But a few important points are being lost in the arguments. For one, it’s not clear how big an impact Carlisle’s phone calls to media members made. He also campaigned on behalf of Jermaine O’Neal for MVP and Al Harrington for Sixth Man. Harrington didn’t win, and it doesn’t appear O’Neal will, either. Carlisle didn’t call the coaches who vote for the All-Defensive team, and they gave Artest more votes than any other player including Wallace and Bowen, which validates the media vote for Defensive Player of the Year.

Carlisle has been campaigning for his players for three years. I don’t recall hearing any protests from other coaches the past two years when Wallace won. And, frankly, it surprises me that anyone – particularly another coach -- would react so strongly to a coach acting on behalf of his players. It’s also disappointing that two great coaches and class acts like Brown and Popovich are giving the appearance of sore losers. But these are all very competitive people, and none of them take losing well. If they did, they wouldn’t be among the biggest winners in their profession.

Let’s cut to the chase here: Artest won the Defensive Player of the Award because he was the most deserving – in the eyes of both the coaches and the media. Any argument otherwise, regardless of the source, is moot.

sweabs
04-29-2004, 05:05 PM
Hey - that is my question that I asked!!! LOL - cool - Conrad actually answered. :laugh:

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 05:10 PM
Very good answer by Bruno. With Brown and Pop complaining about what Rick does in his own time, that in reverse means they're putting the name out for their guys after the fact. Hypocritical on their part in my opinion.

All coaches campaign for things whether they think they do or not. Coaches getting on officials cases, that's campaigning during the games for their guys to get calls.

Coaches praising guys in post game press conferences, that's campaigning for a guy after a job well done.

Coaches campaign for their guys to make the All Star team as a reserve. It happens everywhere.

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 05:46 PM
Will there be a coach #3 voice his opinion :confused:

Shade
04-29-2004, 06:07 PM
One thing to note in all of this:

The two coaches critcizing Carlisle are those whose players finished second (Wallace) and third (Bowen) in the DPOY voting.

Another thing:

I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.

Greg Popvich + Larry Brown = Sore Losers

Shade
04-29-2004, 06:12 PM
Will there be a coach #3 voice his opinion :confused:

Nope, because nobody else's player came close to Ron, Ben, or Bruce in the DPOY voting. Now, had Al won 6th Man or Jermaine MVP, then yeah, we'd probably be hearing ***** from Flip Saunders and Don Nelson.

Suaveness
04-29-2004, 06:17 PM
Another thing:

I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.



And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 06:49 PM
Another thing:

I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.



And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.

Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.

sweabs
04-29-2004, 06:53 PM
I don't hear Jerry Sloan complaining - and he had a great defensive player in Kirilenko. :whoknows:

Hicks
04-29-2004, 07:13 PM
Another thing:

I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.



And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.

Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.

Anyone have links to prove or disprove this? Until this statement everything I'd heard said Rick did campaign for Benny.

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 07:18 PM
Listening to Ricks Response , I heard him say his First year he campaigned for Cliff Robinson for DPOY and he says he only campaigned for players his first year in detriot.

it's around the 6:40 mark in the interview
around the 7:40 mark he says he only campaigned in detriot his first year

Shade
04-29-2004, 07:19 PM
Another thing:

I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.



And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.

Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.

http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick/s/2002/0410/1366345.html

Carlisle told me that he felt it was part of his job description. Carlisle feels that he should coach, guide, help and promote his players -- and that campaigning for his players in worthy categories was part of his day. He was calling about Ben Wallace for Defensive Player of the Year (Wallace already had my vote). He was also promoting Corliss Williamson for Sixth Man of the Year. And he put in some words for Jerry Stackhouse for Second or Third Team All-NBA, reminding me that Stackhouse has adjusted and sacrificed his game for a team that won its division.

Here's another:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/basketballsports_article.aspx?storyid=25976

Artest was assisted by clever campaigning from Pacers Coach Rick Carlisle, who did the same for Wallace two years ago.

And yet another:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/apr02/34985.asp

Detroit's Carlisle took to the phones last week, calling reporters and diplomatically campaigning for Wallace and Williamson in their catagories, and for Jerry Stackhouse for a second or third all-league spot. Carlisle made so many calls - 140 was the official tally - that he was contacted by his long-distance carrier as a security measure to make sure the calls were all legitimate.

That's an awful lot of "misconception."

I'm sure I could find more examples, but I think I've made my point.

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 07:23 PM
wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year :confused:

Shade
04-29-2004, 07:25 PM
wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year :confused:

That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.

Suaveness
04-29-2004, 08:45 PM
wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year :confused:

That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.

In which Ben Wallace was the one receiving the help. Maybe he did it for both.

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 08:50 PM
wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year :confused:

That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.

In which Ben Wallace was the one receiving the help. Maybe he did it for both.

But why would rick say he called pops to ask him for his vote for cliff robinson for DPOY , if he was campaining for ben :whoknows:

sc
04-29-2004, 09:27 PM
I think you need to stop the blind hatred and re-read what has been going on.

Larry Brown is not complaining about the campaigning it is the stat break down that he had his staff do.

They as with most believe that was over the top.

And yes Rick did campaign for Ben, he called but he did not do the stat thing in Detroit.

Shade
04-29-2004, 09:36 PM
I think you need to stop the blind hatred and re-read what has been going on.

Larry Brown is not complaining about the campaigning it is the stat break down that he had his staff do.

They as with most believe that was over the top.

And yes Rick did campaign for Ben, he called but he did not do the stat thing in Detroit.

Err...

"I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it."

:hmm:

Shade
04-29-2004, 09:42 PM
Okay, folks, THIS is what it's all about:

"I feel like the whole organization was supporting me," Bowen told San Antonio writers. "Whenever you get a coach backing a player, it makes the player feel good to know that. It's sort of like saying I have your back in battle. I appreciate Pop for that. Pop was expressing his opinion, which he's entitled to."

Um...and that's different from what Rick did for Ron...how?

Seems to me that Pop and LB are just a little jealous that Rick made them look like fools, since they didn't go out of their way to support their players until after the fact. :laugh:

Both coaches are ignorant, jealous crybabies, and Ben Wallace is a hypocrite. Simple as that.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 09:45 PM
Okay, folks, THIS is what it's all about:

"I feel like the whole organization was supporting me," Bowen told San Antonio writers. "Whenever you get a coach backing a player, it makes the player feel good to know that. It's sort of like saying I have your back in battle. I appreciate Pop for that. Pop was expressing his opinion, which he's entitled to."

Um...and that's different from what Rick did for Ron...how?

Seems to me that Pop and LB are just a little jealous that Rick made them look like fools, since they didn't go out of their way to support their players until after the fact. :laugh:

Both coaches are ignorant, jealous crybabies, and Ben Wallace is a hypocrite. Simple as that.

......and so the hate parade begins... :rolleyes:

I love how poeple are grouping LB in with Pop, because he stated his opinion. Didn't refrence Carlisle, had NOTHING but good things to say about artest...but lets overlook all that.

I think LB isnt the ignorant crybaby here....

Shade
04-29-2004, 09:46 PM
Okay, folks, THIS is what it's all about:

"I feel like the whole organization was supporting me," Bowen told San Antonio writers. "Whenever you get a coach backing a player, it makes the player feel good to know that. It's sort of like saying I have your back in battle. I appreciate Pop for that. Pop was expressing his opinion, which he's entitled to."

Um...and that's different from what Rick did for Ron...how?

Seems to me that Pop and LB are just a little jealous that Rick made them look like fools, since they didn't go out of their way to support their players until after the fact. :laugh:

Both coaches are ignorant, jealous crybabies, and Ben Wallace is a hypocrite. Simple as that.

......and so the hate parade begins... :rolleyes:

I love how poeple are grouping LB in with Pop, because he stated his opinion. Didn't refrence Carlisle, had NOTHING but good things to say about artest...but lets overlook all that.

I think LB isnt the ignorant crybaby here....

Are you saying that LB was NOT speaking in reference to Rick? :hmm:

Well, you could always just tell me how Rick didn't campaign for Ben again... :laugh:

Shade
04-29-2004, 09:50 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 09:57 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Doesn't matter. He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe. Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do. All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:05 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:08 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

The point is, he didn't talk about Carlisle. He said he didnt BELIEVE in campaigning. What did you expect him to do, lie? He was ASKED what he thought of it. He did his level best not to bring Rick into it. You are making this out to be more that what it is.

He mentioned his player AFTER the fact? what fact? I'm sure if Sloan were asked hed tell you AK47 should have won. coached stick up for their players. Before or after the fact, it doesn't matter.

BTW, if you want hypocracy, how about Ron Artest. I dont recall Ron challenging BEN WALLACE to a game of one on on the last 2 years, but when little bruce Bowen complains, all of a sudden Ronnie is mr. tough guy. :unimpressed:

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 10:11 PM
Maybe I am the only Pacer Fan that thinks Pops arguement is valid and I don't think Pops ever said Artest wasn't a great Defender or didn't derve the award. Pops biggest complaint was the whole stats thing and the NBA bought it hook line and sinker and published them without valid proof and no one questioned or looked over the stats that were published.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:12 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

The point is, he didn't talk about Carlisle. He said he didnt BELIEVE in campaigning. What did you expect him to do, lie? He was ASKED what he thought of it. You are making this out to be more that what it is.

He mentioned his player AFTER the fact? what fact? I'm sure if Sloan were asked hed tell you AK47 should have won. coached stick up for their players. Before or after the fact, it doesn't matter.

How do you know that Brown was "forced" to comment on campaigning, and didn't just make a statement like Popovich did? Has Brown ever heard the phrase "no comment?" And why did he go on about the stats and defend Ben out of nowhere?

zxc
04-29-2004, 10:14 PM
Maybe I am the only Pacer Fan that thinks Pops arguement is valid and I don't think Pops ever said Artest wasn't a great Defender or didn't derve the award. Pops biggest complaint was the whole stats thing and the NBA bought it hook line and sinker and published them without valid proof and no one questioned or looked over the stats that were published.

"Bruce guards the best player on the other team almost every single night," Popovich said when comparing Bowen and Artest, who each made the All-Defensive first team Monday. "Artest doesn't do that. Artest just looks the part. He looks like a big, tough guy. He whacks and gets knocked out of the game once in awhile. But that's not the Defensive Player of the Year."


Sure looks like he said Artest wasn't a great defender and didn't deserve the award to me.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:15 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

The point is, he didn't talk about Carlisle. He said he didnt BELIEVE in campaigning. What did you expect him to do, lie? He was ASKED what he thought of it. You are making this out to be more that what it is.

He mentioned his player AFTER the fact? what fact? I'm sure if Sloan were asked hed tell you AK47 should have won. coached stick up for their players. Before or after the fact, it doesn't matter.

How do you know that Brown was "forced" to comment on campaigning, and didn't just make a statement like Popovich did? Has Brown ever heard the phrase "no comment?" And why did he go on about the stats and defend Ben out of nowhere?

Oh yeah, I'm sure Larry Brown held a press conference becaus e he couldnt WAIT to let the world know what he thought of campaigning... :rolleyes:

Take some of your own advice. Don't be a total homer.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:15 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

BTW, if you want hypocracy, how about Ron Artest. I dont recall Ron challenging BEN WALLACE to a game of one on on the last 2 years, but when little bruce Bowen complains, all of a sudden Ronnie is mr. tough guy. :unimpressed:

I don't recall Ron calling out Ben the way Pop called out Ron. Bowen didn't say squat, at least not publically. It was all Pop.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:17 PM
Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.
He didn't say he was talking about Carlisle, but you believe what you want to believe.

Come on now, Kstat. Who else would he POSSIBLY be referring to, especially when he followed up that comment with a comment about Ron.

Don't be a blatant homer on this one.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

Brown supported his OWN PLAYER, which ANY head coach worth his salt would do.

Yeah...like Rick did. Funny thing is, neither Brown nor Popovich mentioned their players until AFTER the fact. It's called spin control.


Kstat, Popovich referenced Bowen in his comment, as did Brown with Ben. That tells you what this is all about right there.

All the man did was state his opinion on campaigning for players. Didn't talk about Carlisle, and had nothing but kind words for Artest. But since he's the Piston coach you crucify him on grounds of poor sportsmanship. I think you're just fishing for a reason.

Once again, if he's not talking about Rick, who is he talking about? Who else has been "campaigning?"

Yes, Brown handled it with more class than Popovich did, but he's still just coming off as a sore loser, defending his guy (Ben) who's being a hypocrite about the whole thing.

The point is, he didn't talk about Carlisle. He said he didnt BELIEVE in campaigning. What did you expect him to do, lie? He was ASKED what he thought of it. You are making this out to be more that what it is.

He mentioned his player AFTER the fact? what fact? I'm sure if Sloan were asked hed tell you AK47 should have won. coached stick up for their players. Before or after the fact, it doesn't matter.

How do you know that Brown was "forced" to comment on campaigning, and didn't just make a statement like Popovich did? Has Brown ever heard the phrase "no comment?" And why did he go on about the stats and defend Ben out of nowhere?

Oh yeah, I'm sure Larry Brown held a press conference becaus e he couldnt WAIT to let the world know what he thought of campaigning... :rolleyes:

Take some of your own advice. Don't be a total homer.

Where/when were the comments made? WHY were they made?

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 10:22 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:25 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

:rolleyes: You're one to talk, pal.

Nothing personal meant, but God damn.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:27 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

So far, I don't see where I've been proven wrong.

I've already proven Kstat wrong on the whole Rick campaigning for Ben issue, so you'll have to understand my skepticism.

If he can prove me wrong, so be it. Until then...

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:29 PM
And for future reference, and this is directed at everyone that does it (read: more than one poster), talking in a negative manner about a person you have a problem with as if said person isn't going to read this thread again (the online equivalent of talking about a person whose in the room as if they aren't) doesn't make you look superior or right, it makes you look, frankly, like a prick.

Sorry to ruffle feathers, but it's getting really tiresome and old.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:31 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

As Hicks said, you are the last person to say that when you're VERY guilty of doing this. :rolleyes:

And yes, Brown was talking about Carlisle. Any idiot can see that he was. I highly doubt that Larry Brown would have said ANYTHING about campaigning THIS WEEK if Pop hadn't had said anything about Carlisle.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:36 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

As Hicks said, you are the last person to say that when you're VERY guilty of doing this. :rolleyes:

And yes, Brown was talking about Carlisle. Any idiot can see that he was. I highly doubt that Larry Brown would have said ANYTHING about campaigning THIS WEEK if Pop hadn't had said anything about Carlisle.

Of course, had his best friend Pop not shot his mouth off a day earlier, Larry wouldn't have been ASKED THE QUESTION.........

Oh wait, thats right, all coaches cant WAIT to make comments to reporters, its not like he might not have been AKSED that or anything....or do you honestly think Larry said them all on his own.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:38 PM
Kstat you will do yourself no good arguing with the good ole boys club here , there always right and anybody who opposes there views will lose and is wrong.

As Hicks said, you are the last person to say that when you're VERY guilty of doing this. :rolleyes:

And yes, Brown was talking about Carlisle. Any idiot can see that he was. I highly doubt that Larry Brown would have said ANYTHING about campaigning THIS WEEK if Pop hadn't had said anything about Carlisle.

Of course, had his best friend Pop not shot his mouth off a day earlier, Larry wouldn't have been ASKED THE QUESTION.........

Oh wait, thats right, all coaches cant WAIT to make comments to reporters, its not like he might not have been AKSED that or anything....or do you honestly think Larry said them all on his own.

I didn't say it wasn't a possiblity, but it can't be accepted as fact either. After all, Pop wasn't asked -- he just shot his mouth off.

But you can't possibly say with a straight face that Larry was not referencing Rick and maintain objectivity in my eyes.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:39 PM
"I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it. "

He did not say Rick's name, but Rick is the one who 'campaigned', so he's saying what Rick did was wrong and there's no place for what Rick did.

So I think to say he didn't have a problem with what Rick did is off base, but that's as far as I'd go with it. Unlike Pop, he had the intelligence and class to give Ron credit. I have no beef with Larry on this.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:40 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

indytoad
04-29-2004, 10:42 PM
Here's the original (I think) Detroit article, has a few more comments from Brown, nothing terribly insightful though.

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pcorn29_20040429.htm

IndyToad
Gone and spent

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:44 PM
"I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it. "

He did not say Rick's name, but Rick is the one who 'campaigned', so he's saying what Rick did was wrong and there's no place for what Rick did.

So I think to say he didn't have a problem with what Rick did is off base, but that's as far as I'd go with it. Unlike Pop, he had the intelligence and class to give Ron credit. I have no beef with Larry on this.

I agree with that. My problem with Brown is that he had to squeeze Ben into the discussion. There was no reason for him to do so. Yes, he's "defending his guy," but in a roundabout way is just campaigning for him too (albeit after the fact) -- just like Pop did for Bruce. This shows me what the comments were really about. And like I said before, there was no reason for Brown to comment at all.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:44 PM
And the Indianapolis Star and Detroit Free Press must be wrong when they say that Brown criticized Carlisle for campaigning since Brown wasn't criticizing Carlisle. :rolleyes:

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:46 PM
"I didn't make a case for Ben. I just thought what our team did was significant and he was a big part of that. He helped us win a lot of games and he guarded the tough guy night in and night out, but again I would never take anything away from what another player has accomplished and nobody has anymore respect for Ron Artest than I do."

Does anyone else find that totally contradictory? He says he didn't make a case for Ben, then begins making a case for him. :rolleyes:

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:47 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:47 PM
He did not say Rick's name, but Rick is the one who 'campaigned', so he's saying what Rick did was wrong and there's no place for what Rick did.

So I think to say he didn't have a problem with what Rick did is off base, but that's as far as I'd go with it. Unlike Pop, he had the intelligence and class to give Ron credit. I have no beef with Larry on this.

I agree with that. My problem with Brown is that he had to squeeze Ben into the discussion. There was no reason for him to do so. Yes, he's "defending his guy," but in a roundabout way is just campaigning for him too (albeit after the fact) -- just like Pop did for Bruce. This shows me what the comments were really about. And like I said before, there was no reason for Brown to comment at all.

Agreed totally. It's just campaigning for their players after the fact, and that's exactly what Rakestraw has been saying on Sports Desk.

I guess since there's no awards out now, they feel that they can get their players' names out after the fact and not consider it campaigning......when it is.

Coaches campaign all the time for stuff.

Now for the real interesting question, Ron was a legit candidate for defensive player of the year LAST year as well. However he blew it with all his off court problems and suspensions.

If he behaved last year like he did this year, is he a two time defensive player of the year by now?

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:48 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

:rolleyes: Oh wah for poor wittle Larry Brown. Pleeeeaase. He said it was wrong, thus saying Rick was wrong as he was the only one who did it.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:48 PM
"I didn't make a case for Ben. I just thought what our team did was significant and he was a big part of that. He helped us win a lot of games and he guarded the tough guy night in and night out, but again I would never take anything away from what another player has accomplished and nobody has anymore respect for Ron Artest than I do."

Does anyone else find that totally contradictory? He says he didn't make a case for Ben, then begins making a case for him. :rolleyes:

Apparently you confuse "didn't" with "never going to"....... :idea:

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:50 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

:rolleyes: Oh wah for poor wittle Larry Brown. Pleeeeaase. He said it was wrong, thus saying Rick was wrong as he was the only one who did it.

You're free to assume that. Just like I'm free to assume there's a gremlin in the trunk of my car....

Basically this whole thing is based off assumtion. You have no proof. That maked it a witch hunt. You only support the possibilites that protray Larry as a bad person, so be it.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:51 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

:rolleyes: Oh wah for poor wittle Larry Brown. Pleeeeaase. He said it was wrong, thus saying Rick was wrong as he was the only one who did it.

You're free to assume that. Just like I'm free to assume there's a gremlin in the trunk of my car....

Assume what? It's what he ****in' said. There's no assumption there. He said "I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it." And as you yourself said, Rick was the only one doing the campaigning. That's not assuming anything, it's stating a fact.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:51 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

OMG, dude. If Brown has a problem with someone campaigning, and Carlisle is the ONLY one campaigning...put 2 and 2 together. Jeez. :rolleyes:

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 10:52 PM
Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

You're being a homer more so than we are at Pacers Digest if you really believe what you do. You have to be an idiot, or blind to the fact that Brown was criticizing Carlisle for his campainging in behalf of Artest.

The only reason Brown even got asked this question was because Pop opened the can of worms in his criticism of Carlisle. He wouldn't have said anything to anybody about this if Pop hadn't started it.

It's OBVIOUS that Brown is criticizing Carlisle for the exact same thing that Pop did. He doesn't have to mention Carlisle's name directly, it's what the whole thing is about. Which is why the articles are called what they're called.

You probably also don't think his stats are baloney comment wasn't directed at Rick for compiling the stats he made for Ron do you? :rolleyes:

I hope Larry never mentions the fact that Wallace was the only player in the top ten in steals, rebounds, and blocks.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 10:53 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

OMG, dude. If Brown has a problem with someone campaigning, and Carlisle is the ONLY one campaigning...put 2 and 2 together. Jeez. :rolleyes:

How anyone doesn't get this is beyond me. I'm just gonna chalk it up to defensive homerism. I've repeated myself more than once in this thread, and I'm done. Cya in Springfield, y'all.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:53 PM
So you now admit KStat that Brown must have been talking about Carlisle? :P

It's my opinion that no other coach should criticize what another coach does on his own time, with his own team. I consider it unprofessional and I wouldn't like it if Rick criticized Don Nelson for whatever reason.

Didn't critisize Carlisle. He said he didn't believe in campaigning. Or are you saying there is something wrong with him saying that? Did he say that Carlisle SHOUDLNT have done what he did? No. Did he mention Rick's name at all? No.

Its not Larry's fault Carlisle happened to be the only one in the NBA campaigning. That shouldnt prevent Larry from speaking his mind on the issue.

Go ahead on your little witch hunt, but its clear you're barking up the wrong tree in your self-richousness.

:rolleyes: Oh wah for poor wittle Larry Brown. Pleeeeaase. He said it was wrong, thus saying Rick was wrong as he was the only one who did it.

You're free to assume that. Just like I'm free to assume there's a gremlin in the trunk of my car....

Assume what? It's what he ****in' said. There's no assumption there. He said "I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it." And as you yourself said, Rick was the only one doing the campaigning. That's not assuming anything, it's stating a fact.

Yeha, he said he didn't believe in campaigning. Once again, someone PROBABLY asked his opinion, what did you expect him to do, lie? Maybe someone put a gun to his head and made him say something. Who knows? I can assume anything and take things out of context just as easily as you can.

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:55 PM
"I didn't make a case for Ben. I just thought what our team did was significant and he was a big part of that. He helped us win a lot of games and he guarded the tough guy night in and night out, but again I would never take anything away from what another player has accomplished and nobody has anymore respect for Ron Artest than I do."

Does anyone else find that totally contradictory? He says he didn't make a case for Ben, then begins making a case for him. :rolleyes:

Apparently you confuse "didn't" with "never going to"....... :idea:

But didn't he say "there's no place for it?" And yet, he turns around and does it himself. So, I guess we can conclude that Larry's a hypocrite as well, huh? :shakehead:

Kstat
04-29-2004, 10:57 PM
"I didn't make a case for Ben. I just thought what our team did was significant and he was a big part of that. He helped us win a lot of games and he guarded the tough guy night in and night out, but again I would never take anything away from what another player has accomplished and nobody has anymore respect for Ron Artest than I do."

Does anyone else find that totally contradictory? He says he didn't make a case for Ben, then begins making a case for him. :rolleyes:

Apparently you confuse "didn't" with "never going to"....... :idea:

But didn't he say "there's no place for it?" And yet, he turns around and does it himself. So, I guess we can conclude that Larry's a hypocrite as well, huh? :shakehead:

Obviously he was referring to calling people up and campaigning for them. A reporter shoving a mic in your face and asking you what you think of your DPOY candidate is ahrdly CAMPIGNING.....

but lets not let the facts get in the way......

Shade
04-29-2004, 10:59 PM
"I didn't make a case for Ben. I just thought what our team did was significant and he was a big part of that. He helped us win a lot of games and he guarded the tough guy night in and night out, but again I would never take anything away from what another player has accomplished and nobody has anymore respect for Ron Artest than I do."

Does anyone else find that totally contradictory? He says he didn't make a case for Ben, then begins making a case for him. :rolleyes:

Apparently you confuse "didn't" with "never going to"....... :idea:

But didn't he say "there's no place for it?" And yet, he turns around and does it himself. So, I guess we can conclude that Larry's a hypocrite as well, huh? :shakehead:

Obviously he was referring to calling people up and campaigning for them. A reporter shoving a mic in your face and asking you what you think of your DPOY candidate is ahrdly CAMPIGNING.....

but lets not let the facts get in the way......

This is what you're missing. Campaigning after the fact is still campaigning. He never had to mention Ben, just as Pop never had to mention Bruce. They did so for a reason.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:00 PM
ALL coaches CAMPAIGN.

They do it in games when they have discussions with referees. They do it in press conferences when they say so and so had a great game and here are his numbers. So and so has been playing great basketball lately.

They do it before the All Star reserves are selected. They say things to the media all the time about players pimping them up. It's their job.

Larry and Pop turned right around and campaigned to the media after the fact, after they criticized Carlisle for doing it.

As Sekou Smith, the Pacers other beat writer said, if a coach calls he's not going to just take what that coach says and not look into it themselves. Media people aren't that stupid and gullable. If anything the phone calls made them take notice of Ron to let them see for themselves so then they could make their own decision based on their own two eyes.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:06 PM
And, for the record, there's NOTHING WRONG with campaigning for your players, WHEN THEY DESERVE IT. I commend Rick for doing so.

Rick twisted nobody's arm to vote for Ron for DPOY -- he simply made them more aware of Ron since he plays in a small market and doesn't get the national exposure the big market players do. Ron was already the frontrunner for the award, anyway. Hell, last I checked, JO wasn't MVP, and Al wasn't SMOTY. :rolleyes:

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:11 PM
Yeah, Rick's campaigning did not cause Artest to get the DPOY award. He was already going to get the award anyways if all Rick did was sit in his office, feet on his desk, twiddling his thumbs.

I think that was proven by the coaches voting Ron on the team with the most votes of any player.

I agree Shade, there's nothing wrong when it comes to campaigning for players who have worked hard, and deserved it. It brings positive exposure to the franchise, and with a player like Ron, he can NEVER get enough positive publicity. As Reggie said, he's not always going to get a fair shake due to his past.

Now if he campaigned for James Jones for Rookie of the Year, then I might have to question him. :laugh: :uhoh:

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:15 PM
Now if he campaigned for James Jones for Rookie of the Year, then I might have to question him. :laugh: :uhoh:

:D

I challenge someone to say that the players Rick campaigned for weren't deserving.

ChicagoJ
04-29-2004, 11:26 PM
:lurk:


Sorry I missed this.

Kstat, you're usually pretty even handed. But when you get home tonight, please tell Bart to turn off the video games and be nice to Lisa.

This one is patently obvious that Brownie was (1) criticizing Carlisle, and (2) promoting Ben, albeit after the fact, out of the opposite side of his mouth.

What do I expect Brownie to do when a reporter shoves a microphone in his face? The exact same thing I expect every one of these guys to do - spin their comments in the least controversial way, so as to not create any "chalkboard material." Brownie is one of the masters of the spin game. Or is the honeymoon still going on in your mind?

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:28 PM
:lurk:


Sorry I missed this.

Kstat, you're usually pretty even handed. But when you get home tonight, please tell Bart to turn off the video games and be nice to Lisa.

This one is patently obvious that Brownie was (1) criticizing Carlisle, and (2) promoting Ben, albeit after the fact, out of the opposite side of his mouth.

What do I expect Brownie to do when a reporter shoves a microphone in his face? The exact same thing I expect every one of these guys to do - spin their comments in the least controversial way, so as to not create any "chalkboard material." Brownie is one of the masters of the spin game. Or is the honeymoon still going on in your mind?

He didn't mention Rick at all. I'll ask you again: what SHOULD he have said?

ChicagoJ
04-29-2004, 11:30 PM
:lurk:


Sorry I missed this.

Kstat, you're usually pretty even handed. But when you get home tonight, please tell Bart to turn off the video games and be nice to Lisa.

This one is patently obvious that Brownie was (1) criticizing Carlisle, and (2) promoting Ben, albeit after the fact, out of the opposite side of his mouth.

What do I expect Brownie to do when a reporter shoves a microphone in his face? The exact same thing I expect every one of these guys to do - spin their comments in the least controversial way, so as to not create any "chalkboard material." Brownie is one of the masters of the spin game. Or is the honeymoon still going on in your mind?

He didn't mention Rick at all. I'll ask you again: what SHOULD he have said?

"Congrats to Ronnie. I personally thought Ben had a great year, but Ron earned it and the voters agreed."

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:31 PM
He didn't mention Rick at all. I'll ask you again: what SHOULD he have said?

You know he was talking about him. Come on, admit it. Fans here see it, the Indy Star sees it, the Detroit Free Press sees it, yet you're the odd man out. You're wrong. Just admit it that you are in this case.

Brown could have done the classic, I really don't have an opinion. It's Rick's team, Rick's player, and it's Rick's time. If he wants to do that, he can because it's his business.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:31 PM
:lurk:


Sorry I missed this.

Kstat, you're usually pretty even handed. But when you get home tonight, please tell Bart to turn off the video games and be nice to Lisa.

This one is patently obvious that Brownie was (1) criticizing Carlisle, and (2) promoting Ben, albeit after the fact, out of the opposite side of his mouth.

What do I expect Brownie to do when a reporter shoves a microphone in his face? The exact same thing I expect every one of these guys to do - spin their comments in the least controversial way, so as to not create any "chalkboard material." Brownie is one of the masters of the spin game. Or is the honeymoon still going on in your mind?

He didn't mention Rick at all. I'll ask you again: what SHOULD he have said?

Firstly, you're still assuming he was "forced" to make those comments.

Secondly, like I said before, there ws no reason for him to go on a Ben campaign. That's what irks me about the whole thing. The fact that he's being hypocritical. Just like Pop.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:33 PM
:lurk:


Sorry I missed this.

Kstat, you're usually pretty even handed. But when you get home tonight, please tell Bart to turn off the video games and be nice to Lisa.

This one is patently obvious that Brownie was (1) criticizing Carlisle, and (2) promoting Ben, albeit after the fact, out of the opposite side of his mouth.

What do I expect Brownie to do when a reporter shoves a microphone in his face? The exact same thing I expect every one of these guys to do - spin their comments in the least controversial way, so as to not create any "chalkboard material." Brownie is one of the masters of the spin game. Or is the honeymoon still going on in your mind?

He didn't mention Rick at all. I'll ask you again: what SHOULD he have said?

"Congrats to Ronnie. I personally thought Ben had a great year, but Ron earned it and the voters agreed."

That's what I'm talking about.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:37 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?

DO I THINK he was indirectly commenting on Carlsile's action? Sure. However, does that mean he WAS? No. I assume he did, just like you ASSUME he did. But nobody can say for sure he was talking about Carlisle. Plain and simple, you assume the conclusion that allows you to critisize him.

ChicagoJ
04-29-2004, 11:38 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?


You asked us our opinion of what he should have said, but no matter what our response, you were going to say "bullcrap".

Now I'm confused.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:38 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?

Nobody. But when he makes a hypocritical *** of himself, I'm going to call him on it.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:41 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?


You asked us our opinion of what he should have said, but no matter what our response, you were going to say "bullcrap".

Now I'm confused.

Oh no, I asked if he could have said what he wanted to any better. You responded with "he shouldnt have said anything" or "he should have talked about somethign else." Thats not an awnser.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:42 PM
DO I THINK he was indirectly commenting on Carlsile's action? Sure. However, does that mean he WAS? No. I assume he did, just like you ASSUME he did. But nobody can say for sure he was talking about Carlisle. Plain and simple, you assume the conclusion that allows you to critisize him.

Sometimes, you just have to put homerism aside and use a little something I like to call common sense.

Once again I ask, if he's not referring to Rick, WHO is he referring to? And why NOW, of all times?

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 11:42 PM
Okay , I will throw in my :twocents: here

I have admin and mod for several large forums , currently I admin a forum with over 62,000 users with 500 - 3000 users online at anytime , If I have a problem with a users post or the way he is posting , I use the PM or email button and do it privately no need to do it in public as it just irritates the poster even more and users joining in the bandwagon of critizism even fuels the fire even more.

99.9% of the time the problem user responds in a positive out come and they shape up , of course you will always have those users who refuse to clean up and sail straight no matter what. , it's not that hard to hit that pm button or take a few mins to fire off a quick email with concerns.

Personally for me , sometimes I do come off as a ******* or a prick but I am a very vocal person and most the time I am trying to be sarcastic rather than a ******* or prick . If you haven't noticed I am not a homer and I don't always ride with the popular opinion on alot of stuff , I look at things from many diffrent angles and don't always take everything for face value or because some one said so.

Again I am not trying to tell you how to run a messageboard but it's a little friendly advice too think about and feel free to take it with a grain of salt ;)

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:43 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?


You asked us our opinion of what he should have said, but no matter what our response, you were going to say "bullcrap".

Now I'm confused.

Oh no, I asked if he could have said what he wanted to any better. You responded with "he shouldnt have said anything" or "he should have talked about somethign else." Thats not an awnser.

What question(s) was he asked again?

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:45 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?

Nobody. But when he makes a hypocritical *** of himself, I'm going to call him on it.

You mean the next time he ever brings up a stat of any kind? :flirt:

Media types all the time dance around questions and give ******** answers. Nobody really tells people what they think because of the possible backlash it can cause.

Well, Mike Davis speaks the truth and that's caused some problems. :unimpressed:

But everybody and their mom knows Larry was talking about Rick. Pacers fans do, the newspaper media in Indy and Detroit does, sports talk radio in Indy does, you're the only one who's giving Larry the benefit of the doubt, which doesn't apply here, since we all know what he was doing. :unimpressed:

Read the Detroit Free Press article about this, please?

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:46 PM
Okay , I will throw in my :twocents: here

I have admin and mod for several large forums , currently I admin a forum with over 62,000 users with 500 - 3000 users online at anytime , If I have a problem with a users post or the way he is posting , I use the PM or email button and do it privately no need to do it in public as it just irritates the poster even more and users joining in the bandwagon of critizism even fuels the fire even more.

99.9% of the time the problem user responds in a positive out come and they shape up , of course you will always have those users who refuse to clean up and sail straight no matter what. , it's not that hard to hit that pm button or take a few mins to fire off a quick email with concerns.

Personally for me , sometimes I do come off as a ******* or a prick but I am a very vocal person and most the time I am trying to be sarcastic rather than a ******* or prick . If you haven't noticed I am not a homer and I don't always ride with the popular opinion on alot of stuff , I look at things from many diffrent angles and don't always take everything for face value or because some one said so.

Again I am not trying to tell you how to run a messageboard but it's a little friendly advice too think about ;)

What is this in reference to? My disagreement with Kstat? What am I gonna do -- ask him nicely to agree with me?

I'm just trying to point out to him that his defense is coming off as very homerish, whether he means for it to be or not. I'm simply presenting and defending my argument. He's doing the same. He just doesn't realize yet that he's wrong. ;)

This is a "discussion foum" for a reason.

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:48 PM
This is a "discussion foum" for a reason.

You mean forum? :confused: ;)

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:49 PM
hmm...so he should have responded to the question by not saying anything, or talking about something else? Thats bullcrap. Who the hell is anyone here to tell Larry what questions he can cand cant awnser?

Nobody. But when he makes a hypocritical *** of himself, I'm going to call him on it.

You mean the next time he ever brings up a stat of any kind? :flirt:

Media types all the time dance around questions and give bull**** answers. Nobody really tells people what they think because of the possible backlash it can cause.

Well, Mike Davis speaks the truth and that's caused some problems. :unimpressed:

But everybody and their mom knows Larry was talking about Rick. Pacers fans do, the newspaper media in Indy and Detroit does, sports talk radio in Indy does, you're the only one who's giving Larry the benefit of the doubt, which doesn't apply here, since we all know what he was doing. :unimpressed:

Read the Detroit Free Press article about this, please?

See, this is what's hurting your argument Kstat. You made a false claim earlier concerning Rick campaigning for Ben, then you refuse to acknowledge that Larry was referencing Rick when it's BLATANTLY OBVIOUS. This gives any further argument on your behalf have to be taken with a grain of salt. Not to mention that you're giving your guy every benefit of the doubt (the evil media-types made him say it).

TheSauceMaster
04-29-2004, 11:49 PM
It was in refrence to Hicks and Southside_ Pacers comments , not about the conversation

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:49 PM
This is a "discussion foum" for a reason.

You mean forum? :confused: ;)

No. :unimpressed: :blush:

Hicks
04-29-2004, 11:50 PM
Okay , I will throw in my :twocents: here

I have admin and mod for several large forums , currently I admin a forum with over 62,000 users with 500 - 3000 users online at anytime , If I have a problem with a users post or the way he is posting , I use the PM or email button and do it privately no need to do it in public as it just irritates the poster even more and users joining in the bandwagon of critizism even fuels the fire even more.

99.9% of the time the problem user responds in a positive out come and they shape up , of course you will always have those users who refuse to clean up and sail straight no matter what. , it's not that hard to hit that pm button or take a few mins to fire off a quick email with concerns.

Personally for me , sometimes I do come off as a ******* or a prick but I am a very vocal person and most the time I am trying to be sarcastic rather than a ******* or prick . If you haven't noticed I am not a homer and I don't always ride with the popular opinion on alot of stuff , I look at things from many diffrent angles and don't always take everything for face value or because some one said so.

Again I am not trying to tell you how to run a messageboard but it's a little friendly advice too think about and feel free to take it with a grain of salt ;)

First of all, a very well written post. I admit my comment was sparked based off of you, but I did mean it to anyone that does it; you were simply the most recent to do so and it set me off. But I didn't say it as an admin. I said it as a fellow poster of this sight; as a peer. It's just annoying as hell and reeks of snobishness to me. I wasn't saying it as an admin. Only as a fellow person that's talking about sports on this forum.

That aside, when you said this:
If you haven't noticed I am not a homer and I don't always ride with the popular opinion on alot of stuff , I look at things from many diffrent angles and don't always take everything for face value or because some one said so.

That's fair enough, but the problem is you assume that anyone who DOES agree with popular opinion is automatically going with it because it's what was said to them. Not usually true. I agree with it in this circumstance because I think it's right, not because it's popular to think it's right. That's a common argument minorities (in any sense, i'm not talking race) take: That if you agree with the majority, it's just because you're buying the hype or riding the wave, or going with the flow. Not so. I said it because I believe it.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:51 PM
It was in refrence to Hicks and Southside_ Pacers comments , not about the conversation

Oh.

Well, in that case, he just wanted to diffuse any potential heated discussion. In fact, I was about to make a similar comment. It seemed approriate as nothing had yet happened.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:53 PM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 11:54 PM
Well, in that case, he just wanted to diffuse any potential heated discussion. In fact, I was about to make a similar comment. It seemed approriate as nothing had yet happened.

Actually, in this case I had a different agenda, but thank you anyway (see above). :flirt:

Southside_Pacer
04-29-2004, 11:55 PM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

It never got this long because he's Larry Brown, head coach of the Detroit Pistons. It never got this long because Larry Brown is a bad person, your words, not mine.

I really believe it got this long since you were saying over and over and over again that Brown wasn't talking about Rick, just giving his opinions on campaigning. We believe he was talking about Rick, just not using his name directly. Thus the thread got long.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 11:56 PM
But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

That's simply a lie. I never once thought about him as some "dirty Piston attacking my team". Don't forget he coached in Indy for 3 years. This isn't some hate fest "which hunt" you want to pretend it is.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

I don't know who's calling him a bad person, just a hypocrite for plugging Ben in the middle of saying he disagrees with campaigning.

Hicks
04-29-2004, 11:56 PM
I really believe it got this long since you were saying over and over and over again that Brown wasn't talking about Rick, just giving his opinions on campaigning. We believe he was talking about Rick, just not using his name directly. Thus the thread got long.

Exactly right.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:57 PM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

It never got this long because he's Larry Brown, head coach of the Detroit Pistons. It never got this long because Larry Brown is a bad person, your words, not mine.

I really believe it got this long since you were saying over and over and over again that Brown wasn't talking about Rick, just giving his opinions on campaigning. We believe he was talking about Rick, just not using his name directly. Thus the thread got long.

No, I was playing Devil's advocate. Lary may not have been thinking about Rick when he made his comments, he sure didn't bring Rick up at all, he could have been talking about campaigning in general. Was that the case? No, but since he never said anything directly, all we are left with are ASSUMPTIONS. You yourself said Larry should have spun his comments. I think he did a damn good job.

Shade
04-29-2004, 11:57 PM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

You're still not getting it. I'm not upset that Brown disagrees with Rick's methods. It's not really any of his business, so I don't see why he felt he needed to make a comment in the first place, but meh. :shrug:

My problem is that he says he thinks campaigning is wrong, then immediately turns around and campaigns for Ben. That's hypocritical, just like Pop was when mentioning Bowen, and like Ben was when chastising Carlisle. That's the point.

You're making it more difficult with false accusations and refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

Kstat
04-29-2004, 11:59 PM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

You're still not getting it. I'm not upset that Brown disagrees with Rick's methods. It's not really any of his business, so I don't see why he felt he needed to make a comment in the first place, but meh. :shrug:

My problem is that he says he thinks campaigning is wrong, then immediately turns around and campaigns for Ben. That's hypocritical, just like Pop was when mentioning Bowen, and like Ben was when chastising Carlisle. That's the point.

You're making it more difficult with false accusations and refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

Explain to me how its campaigning if the contest is alredy OVER......

Shade
04-30-2004, 12:00 AM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

It never got this long because he's Larry Brown, head coach of the Detroit Pistons. It never got this long because Larry Brown is a bad person, your words, not mine.

I really believe it got this long since you were saying over and over and over again that Brown wasn't talking about Rick, just giving his opinions on campaigning. We believe he was talking about Rick, just not using his name directly. Thus the thread got long.

No, I was playing Devil's advocate. Lary may not have been thinking about Rick when he made his comments, he sure didn't bring Rick up at all, he could have been talking about campaigning in general. Was that the case? No, but since he never said anything directly, all we are left with are ASSUMPTIONS. You yourself said Larry should have spun his comments. I think he did a damn good job.

Once more Kstat, Brown has a problem with campaigning. Rick is the only one campaigning. This is hot on the heels of the Popovich chastising Rick for campaigningk. Larry mentioned Ron Artest, Rick's guy, in reference to the campaigning. Connect the freakin' dots, man.

Southside_Pacer
04-30-2004, 12:03 AM
Explain to me how its campaigning if the contest is alredy OVER......

Sadly I don't think you're kidding on this one. He's still campaigning saying that he doesn't like it when coaches pimp their players to the media directly. That their play on the court should be what's spoken for since stats are "baloney"

He then turns around and refers to Ben Wallace. That is campaigning. He's talking up his player about the defensive player of the year award. He's getting his name out to the media AGAIN, and this issue will be in the newspapers (oh wait, it already has), and Wallace's name will be out AGAIN.

He's getting Ben some more publicity about being mentioned with not winning the award. So what if it's after the fact? It's still campaigning.

Shade
04-30-2004, 12:04 AM
This isn't even a discussion worthy of 4 pages. Larry disagrees with Rick's methods. That doesn't make him a bad person, its just his opinion. Larry NEVER critisized Ron or said he shouldn't be the DPOY. In fact, he went out of his way to PRAISE Ron. So all we're arguing about is, is Larry a jerk for having the NERVE to defend his best friend on earth and disagree with rick's methods.

Whatever. If Larry's comments we're a FRACTION of what Popp said. If he were the coach of the Seattle Sonics, this would be a three-post thread. But since he coaches Detroit, everyone wants to label him satan reincarnate.

Coaches disagree with each other all the time. Larry never brought Rick's player into it, this doesn't make hima bad person.

You're still not getting it. I'm not upset that Brown disagrees with Rick's methods. It's not really any of his business, so I don't see why he felt he needed to make a comment in the first place, but meh. :shrug:

My problem is that he says he thinks campaigning is wrong, then immediately turns around and campaigns for Ben. That's hypocritical, just like Pop was when mentioning Bowen, and like Ben was when chastising Carlisle. That's the point.

You're making it more difficult with false accusations and refusing to acknowledge the obvious.

Explain to me how its campaigning if the contest is alredy OVER......

He's showing his guy, now, that he's got his back by saying "my guy was deserving too." Just like Popovich did. That's campaigning. And there's always next year on top of that.

Suaveness
04-30-2004, 01:48 AM
:lurk:

I'm gonna have to agree with the majority on this one. Brown was CLEARLY critisizing and targeting Rick while promoting Ben at the same time. It's obvious.