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View Full Version : QOD 8/20/06-Has Marshall Done Enough To Make Roster?



Speed
10-20-2006, 11:27 AM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_061020.html

I've been a long-time Pacers fan from Guyana so imagine my delight that the first player in the NBA to hail from Guyana, Rawle Marshall, ended up with the Pacers. I've seen him play for Dallas and he certainly has scoring skills. His preseason scoring has not surprised me but has his stock improved enough to crack the roster? (From Varunesh in Kingston, Jamaica)



A. Marshall is one of two players that have really played themselves up the depth chart, and both are former Dallas players acquired in the Darrell Armstrong trade; the other is, of course, Josh Powell. Entering camp, even though he had impressed the staff in workouts, I figured Marshall didn't have much chance of making the roster because at 6-7, 190 pounds, he has virtually the same profile as another ex-Maverick, Marquis Daniels, and prized draft acquisition James White.


While Daniels has played just four preseason minutes due to a hamstring strain and White has struggled with the adjustment to the NBA, Marshall has looked right at home. He leads the team in minutes (33 per game) and has averaged 10.0 points on 50 percent shooting. A respectable mid-range shooter with a nose for the basket, Marshall also has proven capable of getting to the line and converting, going 20-of-25. All of which is impressive enough, but it's important to remember this is a guy who's specialty is defense, and he hasn't disappointed there. He's just a very smooth, fluid player that looks like he belongs in the NBA.


Powell has exploded in the last two games, racking up 32 points and 13 rebounds while recovering from the flu. A rugged power forward with deceptive athleticism, Powell is one of those guys willing to give up his body for the good of the team. There's a quiet perseverance about him, as well; he's kind of the strong, silent type. Heading into camp, I figured he had at least an even chance of making it if he played well because the Pacers had a need for another big body. Powell definitely has that, and his ability to hit the 15-foot jumper fits nicely, as well.

Three important preseason games remain and it will be extremely important for Marshall and Powell to continue to perform well. To this point, though, they've done exactly what players in their circumstances must in training camp and the preseason. They've made themselves extremely difficult to cut. In order to find a way to keep both, the Pacers would have to get pretty creative with their roster decisions. It seems pretty clear, if they had their druthers, the Pacers would find some way to make sure both Marshall and Powell are around for opening night and well beyond.

Frank Slade
10-20-2006, 11:59 AM
They've made themselves extremely difficult to cut. In order to find a way to keep both, the Pacers would have to get pretty creative with their roster decisions.

It seems pretty clear, if they had their druthers, the Pacers would find some way to make sure both Marshall and Powell are around for opening night – and well beyond.

Reads to me like Baston ,Greene or maybe even White could be out, or that the Pacers would try some type of 2 for 1, or even trade a player for cash or a 2nd rounder. :spy:

Isaac
10-20-2006, 12:02 PM
With all these guys proving themselves worthy, I see no way we don't pull off a 2-1 or a trade for a draft pick.

Speed
10-20-2006, 12:11 PM
With all these guys proving themselves worthy, I see no way we don't pull off a 2-1 or a trade for a draft pick.

You have to find a willing partner, I would think it's really really really hard to do a 2 for 1, especially this time of year.

I try to think of it from the other teams standpoint, too. Do we want to take on more players/contracts when we haven't even played a game.

It's easy to say, really hard to execute, I'm guessing.

bulldog
10-22-2006, 03:15 PM
I'm sure we could do Saras for second rounder in a minute, as many people suggested.
But, I think A) TPTB are holding out for him to improve, and B) Larry doesn't want to lose face.

rexnom
10-22-2006, 03:20 PM
I'm sure we could do Saras for second rounder in a minute, as many people suggested.
But, I think A) TPTB are holding out for him to improve, and B) Larry doesn't want to lose face.
Be realistic. We can't afford getting rid of PGs at this point. I'm sorry. Maybe we should have drafted a PG, I dunno. But getting rid of one of our PGs when the rest of our roster has one injury-ridled PG, one 38 year-old PG, and one guy we just picked up off of waivers doesn't seem that intelligent to me.

Young
10-22-2006, 03:23 PM
Yes a 2 for 1 trade is very hard to make. It's easier said than done.

I hope we find a way to keep both these guys though, along with Greene.

Naptown_Seth
10-22-2006, 08:03 PM
Be realistic. We can't afford getting rid of PGs at this point. I'm sorry. Maybe we should have drafted a PG, I dunno. But getting rid of one of our PGs when the rest of our roster has one injury-ridled PG, one 38 year-old PG, and one guy we just picked up off of waivers doesn't seem that intelligent to me.
Just for argument's sake, say that Powell and Marshall were Kobe and Karl Malone at age 22, would you keep a 31 year old Derek Fisher just because you needed PG protection?

No. You gotta keep the talent. Powell or Marshall APPEAR (ie, could be wrong on this) to be more talented than SarJas. That makes them worth more on the market than SarJas. So at the very least you keep them, let them show their stuff a little, and if 2 of the other THREE PGs go down you trade them for someone better than SarJas has proven to be so far.


The trade I kicked around due to the 3pt need (not that I think they need it since I like less 3PAs) is D. Marshall. Edwards/SarJas would match and that takes SarJas to a team that wanted him before and still has been looking for PG help.

D. Marshall doesn't fix a problem and frankly I wouldn't care if he only saw 10 mpg, it just keeps the Pacers in a position to keep Rawle, Greene and Powell.


Of course my first choice is a Baston cut, but if they can make a decent 2 for 1 in which they give a little in the deal, take on some salary length they don't quite want, then I think that works too. Baston is certainly strong enough to be a #10-12 guy on a standard roster.

rexnom
10-22-2006, 08:25 PM
Just for argument's sake, say that Powell and Marshall were Kobe and Karl Malone at age 22, would you keep a 31 year old Derek Fisher just because you needed PG protection?

No. You gotta keep the talent. Powell or Marshall APPEAR (ie, could be wrong on this) to be more talented than SarJas. That makes them worth more on the market than SarJas. So at the very least you keep them, let them show their stuff a little, and if 2 of the other THREE PGs go down you trade them for someone better than SarJas has proven to be so far.


The trade I kicked around due to the 3pt need (not that I think they need it since I like less 3PAs) is D. Marshall. Edwards/SarJas would match and that takes SarJas to a team that wanted him before and still has been looking for PG help.

D. Marshall doesn't fix a problem and frankly I wouldn't care if he only saw 10 mpg, it just keeps the Pacers in a position to keep Rawle, Greene and Powell.


Of course my first choice is a Baston cut, but if they can make a decent 2 for 1 in which they give a little in the deal, take on some salary length they don't quite want, then I think that works too. Baston is certainly strong enough to be a #10-12 guy on a standard roster.
But the talent gap between Marshall/Powell (Or Baston if you will) and Greene is not even close to the talent gap between Kobe and Fisher that you listed. Also, if we had a Kobe that could play PG down the stretch of games I wouldn't worry about this but here we're basically relying on a lot of players we don't want to rely on if something bad happens.

Anthem
10-22-2006, 08:43 PM
I with we could have seen more of Daniels at PG. Anyway, at this point I'd probably be fine with giving Sarunas a clean start somewhere else.

I don't think he'll be in a much better position with any team we traded him to, but I'd be happy to give him a chance somewhere else.

Naptown_Seth
10-22-2006, 08:52 PM
But the talent gap between Marshall/Powell (Or Baston if you will) and Greene is not even close to the talent gap between Kobe and Fisher that you listed. Also, if we had a Kobe that could play PG down the stretch of games I wouldn't worry about this but here we're basically relying on a lot of players we don't want to rely on if something bad happens.

Just for argument's sake,
The point was that you keep the talent. Why keep less just because you paid more for it? That's just stupid.

Oh, because it's only a little bit of a difference. Tell you what, you give me 20 bucks and I'll hand you back 18. Practically the same amount, so what do you care?

It's still less, that's why you care. And my point wasn't to cut Greene so you might read again. I just said that you don't worry about trading a PG because of some lack of depth. I specifically mentioned trading SarJas, not Greene.

Cutting Greene, Marshall or Powell would be a stupid waste of talent. All 3 are good enough to play THIS YEAR and even before injuries set in. If you lose Tinsley and Armstrong and MUST have another PG to go with GREENE, you could trade Marshall for one better than SarJas is right now (IMO).

rexnom
10-22-2006, 10:41 PM
The point was that you keep the talent. Why keep less just because you paid more for it? That's just stupid.

Oh, because it's only a little bit of a difference. Tell you what, you give me 20 bucks and I'll hand you back 18. Practically the same amount, so what do you care?

It's still less, that's why you care. And my point wasn't to cut Greene so you might read again. I just said that you don't worry about trading a PG because of some lack of depth. I specifically mentioned trading SarJas, not Greene.

Cutting Greene, Marshall or Powell would be a stupid waste of talent. All 3 are good enough to play THIS YEAR and even before injuries set in. If you lose Tinsley and Armstrong and MUST have another PG to go with GREENE, you could trade Marshall for one better than SarJas is right now (IMO).
Obviously I see your point but I just don't see who we're going pull off a trade here or who we're going to get. I want to keep Marshall and Powell as well but I can TPTB's logic in keeping Greene ahead of them AND sticking with Saras.

As for cutting Baston, I really don't see that happening. He just seems like too much of an actual signing to just be cut loose here. I hope I'm wrong though, I really do.

avoidingtheclowns
10-22-2006, 11:53 PM
i mentioned in the trade forum that we should try and trade SarJar to PHX, they have an extra roster spot available AND i think if he is going to succeed in the NBA it will most likely be for Mike "Euroball" D'Antoni and his shoot-threes, high-octane offense... what defense? system

i think we could get a 2nd round pick, plus they have a fairly unproven guy backing up nash.


to the basic point.. i think its vital to keep marshall and powell. i hear good things about greene but we haven't seen it. but i'd be willing to keep him and try it out. i don't know how likely it is that bird will do trade SarJar but i don't think we should decide between marshall and powell. i think we need both.

Anthem
10-23-2006, 10:19 AM
i mentioned in the trade forum that we should try and trade SarJar to PHX, they have an extra roster spot available AND i think if he is going to succeed in the NBA it will most likely be for Mike "Euroball" D'Antoni and his shoot-threes, high-octane offense... what defense? system
Sarunas and Foster for Kurt Thomas and a first-round pick?

Yeah, we give up more than we get back. But it would actually be like trading Sarunas and Foster for Thomas, Marshall, and a pick.

Plus Saras could get a fresh start somewhere else.

Naptown_Seth
10-23-2006, 02:37 PM
Sarunas and Foster for Kurt Thomas and a first-round pick?

Yeah, we give up more than we get back. But it would actually be like trading Sarunas and Foster for Thomas, Marshall, and a pick.

Plus Saras could get a fresh start somewhere else.
This was the rumor last summer, though I was tossing James Jones in trying to make sense of it.

Right now this would be a homerun deal for the Pacers IMO. Marshall has been very impressive and IMO will make more of a contribution this season than SarJas will, perhaps more than Foster as well (harder to compare though).

This keeps a solid big here, and PHX effectively gets SarJas for free. Makes a lot of sense to me.


The only reason we are talking this way is because of the pre-season results. And honestly if this team wants to be up-tempo Rawle is the fastest guy on every break. I had NO interest in Rawle to start the preseason, so this is all just earned respect.

Greene also showed a strong 4th in game 1, which included 5 assists (a couple were pretty nifty even) to go with his dramatically stronger on the ball defense (compared to anything in Indy not named Ron in the last 5 years).

Powell seems likely to have a better year than Foster, so you want to keep him as well.



I understand that as a signing (esp for 1.8m) Baston seems more "legit", but the fact is that the team could have cut Rawle sooner and spent ZERO on him, so why didn't they? And Snap was a signing, though much cheaper. And Edwards is likely to be cut despite his $1m+ salary for this season.

They kept Rawle I assume because they wanted to find out. Well they did, they found out that he's a strong SG/SF type that attacks the basket AND gets out on the break very well.


All I know is that when Bird turned to me to say "dump Rawle" my response would be "wait, why are we doing this again, why don't we want to keep talent." Hopefully others in TPTB are thinking the same way.



I also started to mention the odd jump in White's PT. He got "let's take a look at him" numbers in the last game IMO, compared to what he has been getting. If you are resigned to the fact that Williams and White are staying and you have this big issue trying to decide who to keep from a different group, then why give the rookies the PT of guys you want to look at?

Is it possible that after seeing Rawle they might consider White expendable? I hope not because I think White and Williams are simply rookies and will tighten their games up. But then its not like Powell and Rawle aren't almost rookies too.


In the "3 years from now" view does anyone see Baston being better than White, Williams, Powell, Greene or Marshall? Does anyone see the team needing Baston to play big minutes this year, at least if they also keep Powell?

So why do they keep him again? You don't need him now and you won't use him in the future.

DG4mvp
10-23-2006, 03:02 PM
Stating the obvious here but: I think it is a good problem to have not to be able to decide who to cut because the players are too good. I am praying the 2for1 with PHOX will happen. If Saras would embrace his destiny as a E. Piatkowski/S.Kerr hybrid (good shooter with good court vision but not fast enough for a PG) then he would make big stride. Focus on the shooting Saras, NBA PG are just too fast for you nowdays.

odeez
10-23-2006, 04:17 PM
Yes, no matter who we have to trade with, move Saras, and make some space for Marshall and Powell.

rexnom
10-23-2006, 04:58 PM
Guys, I just hope we can pull a trade off...but I fear we won't.

Rocky
10-23-2006, 05:13 PM
Could the Pacers add Armstrong to the staff since he is wanting to coach next year and keep Greene, Powell and Marshall on the roster?

Frank Slade
10-23-2006, 05:17 PM
Could the Pacers add Armstrong to the staff since he is wanting to coach next year and keep Greene, Powell and Marshall on the roster?

You mean ala "Tree" Rollins Coach/Player ? :cool:
I don't think that creates a loophole, but I could be wrong.

Alpolloloco
10-23-2006, 05:39 PM
Yes, no matter who we have to trade with, move Jackson, and make some space for Marshall and Powell.

fixed

Anthem
10-23-2006, 06:39 PM
You mean ala "Tree" Rollins Coach/Player ? :cool:
I don't think that creates a loophole, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, we could make him staff. But then he couldn't play in the games.

Bball
10-23-2006, 07:39 PM
Yeah, we could make him staff. But then he couldn't play in the games.

And he's arguably our best PG. The question tho could be... How much does that matter this season alone in the bigger picture? He's 78 years old and plans to retire after this season. Is this season about this season or is it something bigger (building for the future... a transition year)?

With Walsh still at the helm I know the answer: It's about this season alone and making the playoffs.

Armstrong stays.

If anything happened otherwise it would be a major course correction.

-Bball