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View Full Version : Some quick random thoughts about the loss to the wolves....



Peck
10-17-2006, 03:58 AM
I had to give away my tickets to the game because of a conflict so once again I did not get to see this one live. However I did Tivo this & I did see the house feed.

First & formost I will point this out now, it's pre-season so we can't take way to much away from this. However, like any game, there are trends we can begin to see.

1. Danny Granger must & I mean MUST be more aggressive on the offensive end. He is already to good to defer this much to J.O. & we have yet to see him Al & J.O. on the floor together. He also needs to work on his ball handling ability because as far as I can tell the only real weakness he has is that he lacks the ability to break his man down off of the dribble as well as other players who become stars do.

2. We are in trouble with our back court. No need to beat a dead horse here but both the p.g. & the S.G. spot is in need of some very serious upgrading. Marshal had some nice drives but better defensive teams will just shut down the lane on him & then what will he do? He looks to be very limited in his ability to hit from the outside. Again, Armstrong was the best p.g. on our team. That should tell you how bad things were right there.

3. Shawne Williams needs some work but I honestly think by the end of the year he will be a solid rotation player. I don't know why but when I see him play I sometimes get the feeling he is a more talented Stromile Swift in the making. I know it will never happen but I would not be opposed to some D-League time for Shawne if we won't give him regular rotational min.

4. Jermaine O'Neal looked average. That's not an insult or a compliment it's just what I saw. Also whenever he was in we once again went back to the low post offense we all know oh so well.

5. Jackson made poor decisions & seemed to play more one on one than I am used to from him. I'm used to a lot btw, but this seemed even more to me. As to the fans booing, again I wasn't there but on tv it sounded like a wall of boo's, I could be wrong though. I know that for the teams benefit they probably need to stop sooner rather than later but IMO it's ok for the fans to let TPTB know how they feel.

6. I'm about done with David Harrison. I know that sounds harsh & it is but I'm sorry I just don't see the growth there as a player that we should see after three seasons. For God's sake he couldn't even accidently grab a rebound? He also has become the black hole on offense, once the ball goes in it does not come back out. Look I gripe all the time at Foster for not expanding his game at all, well David is on the same path. What does he do better now than he did as a rookie? Look this is coming from a guy who was a huge David fan, but if I don't see some real honest growth over the next couple of months I would not be opposed to packaging up David with whomever & get something good out of him if we can. He still was the last pick in the first round so I guess nothing lost there but he has got to start improving & fast.

7. I'm not sure what to think about Saras. Not good from the field, leaving his man open for jumper after jumper & trouble bringing the ball up the floor. I just don't understand what is going on with him. Has the NBA figured him out? Is he fatigued? Was he never that good to begin with? I don't know the answer but something is wrong.

8. Snap Hunter had a horrid game.

9. I still can not stand Jeff Foster & Jermaine O'Neal on the floor at the same time.

10. James White has so far shown why he is a second round pick.

Like I said at the start, it's pre-season. I'll be interested to see what Danny Al-Jermaine does together. But no matter what I worry about our back court.

jjbjjbjjb
10-17-2006, 04:09 AM
Maybe we should start Greene and Quisey in the backcourt...

Bball
10-17-2006, 04:11 AM
I was just getting ready to go to bed when I saw this so I will only talk to one point....The question of Sarunas.

Since I didn't see the him versus the US in international competition I have to ask why was he effective then playing against NBA players? What's changed?

Also, one thing that has always worried me a little about Sarunas is that we might've gotten him a couple of years too late. He's not an athletic freak to begin with and his age keeps moving on. Is that part of the problem?

-Bball

Kstat
10-17-2006, 04:15 AM
Sarunas had an out-of-body shooting performance. He spent 4 years waiting to get the US back for 2000 and he pretty much played it like it was his last game. He hit something like seven threes, with Iverson draped over him.

I think a lot of people saw that and thought he could duplicate that performance, instead of looking at his overall euroleague career, where he was a fine distributor but a streaky shooter at best.

Just my opnion, anyway. I think Sarunas has trouble keeping up with the faster pace of the NBA, wheras international ball is much slower and controlled.

Harddrive7
10-17-2006, 07:18 AM
Where was there TV coverage? I looked and didn't see them listed as playing on TV.

D-BONE
10-17-2006, 07:32 AM
Maybe we should start Greene and Quisey in the backcourt...

We wouldn't be significantly worse off than with Tins or Saras running with Jack. Defensively we'd be way better. But what's up with Greene's injury? Broken pinky on the left hand I think I heard? Sounds like he could be out a while perhaps? Anybody got info on that situation?

As far as dissatisfaction with Harrison, anybody near the point of using him for trade bait? I know the arguments about being young and big and so forth. But could he net us an upgrade at one of the backcourt spots and/or help us help us unload Tins or Jack? Just crossed my mind reading Peck's post game.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 07:56 AM
Sarunas had an out-of-body shooting performance. He spent 4 years waiting to get the US back for 2000 and he pretty much played it like it was his last game. He hit something like seven threes, with Iverson draped over him.

I think a lot of people saw that and thought he could duplicate that performance, instead of looking at his overall euroleague career, where he was a fine distributor but a streaky shooter at best.

Just my opnion, anyway. I think Sarunas has trouble keeping up with the faster pace of the NBA, wheras international ball is much slower and controlled.

Maybe Iverson guarded him too, but I specifically recall Marbury guarding (LMAO) Sarunas when Lithuania beat the US. Sarunas looked nothing short of incredible during that game. Marbury played off him early on and Sarunas got hot....and was visibly having a great time draining three's. Marbury was trying to return the favor, but was not nearly as successful shooting. I was convinced at the time that Sarunas was a combination of Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. I now truly think that game was an aberration.

Speed
10-17-2006, 08:32 AM
I believe Greene will be the starter at some point during the year and not relinquish the spot, maybe ever. He consistently give you a prescence that physical and defensive oriented. Makes guys around him better just by playing a role. I know I'm taking great leaps here, but I think it's just what they need. He is also a natural floor leader. His only downfall is that guys will start to play off him, but a shot can be learned. Jason Kidd couldn't throw it in the ocean, at first. Not comparing the two, just saying it can be learned.

skyfire
10-17-2006, 08:34 AM
The closest Team USA had to a decent perimeter defender in that Lithuania game was Lamar Odom, and Saras hit that huge 4pt play against him.

Speed
10-17-2006, 08:44 AM
I also don't like Foster and JO on the floor, but I love Powell and JO there.

Unclebuck
10-17-2006, 08:55 AM
6. I'm about done with David Harrison. I know that sounds harsh & it is but I'm sorry I just don't see the growth there as a player that we should see after three seasons. For God's sake he couldn't even accidently grab a rebound? He also has become the black hole on offense, once the ball goes in it does not come back out. Look I gripe all the time at Foster for not expanding his game at all, well David is on the same path. What does he do better now than he did as a rookie? Look this is coming from a guy who was a huge David fan, but if I don't see some real honest growth over the next couple of months I would not be opposed to packaging up David with whomever & get something good out of him if we can. He still was the last pick in the first round so I guess nothing lost there but he has got to start improving & fast.

I would like to officially welcome you aboard, you are about a year late, but you are here now and it is nice to have some company aboard what was a lonely train. Right now the only thing I see him good for is shotblocking, but he is rarely in the correct position so even that is few and far between. One thing he simply isn't good at is being a primary post-up guy, I can't figure out why, but when we throw the ball to him directly in a post-up he rarely scores, he gets into a wierd crouching position and tries to over power his guy and then throws up a weak shot that is almost always short.




7. I'm not sure what to think about Saras. Not good from the field, leaving his man open for jumper after jumper & trouble bringing the ball up the floor. I just don't understand what is going on with him. Has the NBA figured him out? Is he fatigued? Was he never that good to begin with? I don't know the answer but something is wrong.



The thing I've noticed that is different this season is his fire is gone. At least last year he had enthusiasm, he has a certain spirit about him, this preseason he has none of that. For whatever reason his shot has left him, and now we are left with a guy who is a good passer, but cannot do anything else even fairly well.

Just for sake of comparision, I went back and looked at the box scores of the preseason games last season.

And not that scoring is the best way to judge any player, but this is at least interesting. he played in all 8 preseason games and here are his minutes played and points scored.

23 - 8
25 - 18
24 - 9
24 - 0
21 - 10
16 - 14
20 - 2
20 - 7

here is the link, did anyone remember Bender having 17 points in a game last preseason.
http://www.nba.com/pacers/schedule/results_2005.html


I just want to say one thing, and it pains me to say this, I haven't been this unexcited (is that a word) about a Pacers season in about 17 or 18 years. There is this sense of dread, sense of doom that I don't think I've felt before - and I can't figure out why that is. I don't read much into preseason games (certainly not the results of the games) so I don't know why I feel this way.

There almost seems like there are three current Pacers teams. One I'm sick of, One I'm excited about, and one that is third string so I just don't think they'll play much - so I really don't care about them.

1) the team I'm sick of is Tinsley, Jackson, Saras, Harrison - JO, Granger, and Al. I just don't think the starters are going to work., Granger hasn't found his place yet - but he'll be fine, although it might be better if he came off the bench. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with JO and Al, but it just seems like when they are on the floor with Jax and Tins it seems to be same old same old .

2) team I'm excited about - Marquis, Armstrong, Greene, White, Granger,

3) team that I really don't care about right now - Hunter, Powell, White, Marshal. I care for the future but right now they aren't going to play much, except maybe White.

But more than anything the starters seem like a stale re-hash of last years team (although if the pacers went with a new backcourt it would seem like a totally different team).

Do you know what would get me excited - if we replaced Jax, JT, and Saras with DA, Marquis, and Greene - and by that I mean replace them in the starting lineup and as the primary backcourt players.

If someone told me right now the primary backcourt rotation would include Danials, Armstrong, Greene and White (meaning Jax, JT and Saras would not play at all)- that would make me very happy. And if that means the Pacers lose a few games they otherwise wouldn't, I could live with that. Because I believe that is the direction we need to go.

If the opening night starters were Greene and Marquis - I would stand and cheer We need to go in a new direction, a radically new direction. Does Carlisle have the guts to do that. (the problem is they are both injured right now, so it won't happen, but I think that would send a good message)

Kegboy
10-17-2006, 09:13 AM
here is the link, did anyone remember Bender having 17 points in a game last preseason.

:wave:

(I had forgotten about the game where he hit 11-14 FTs, though)

Will Galen
10-17-2006, 09:46 AM
I think we will do a preseason trade. Why? Because Walsh has already told Greene they had seen enough and we know Powell has made the team.

However, they keep starting Marshall so it's obvious they are looking hard at him.

Jermaniac
10-17-2006, 10:07 AM
I agree with you Peck about Harrison, I have see nothing from him since his rookie year that shows me he is going to grow into a solid center. He lost a bunch of weight this summer but thats it, he didnt improve his post game at all. The game against Nets he was playing against their scrubs in the last few minutes of that game and he couldnt do nothing.

And he still hasnt learned how to stop fouling players. I doubt he will be in the rotation once the season starts.

Frank Slade
10-17-2006, 10:13 AM
I think we will do a preseason trade. Why? Because Walsh has already told Greene they had seen enough and we know Powell has made the team.

However, they keep starting Marshall so it's obvious they are looking hard at him.

In the back of my mind, that's what I have been thinking as well. Given all the circumstances, and the number crunch, it just seems logical that some move will go down soon.

Will Galen
10-17-2006, 10:18 AM
In the back of my mind, that's what I have been thinking as well. Given all the circumstances, and the number crunch, it just seems logical that some move will go down soon.

For all we know they could have a trade on the table and be showcasing Marshall.

sweabs
10-17-2006, 10:32 AM
Unfortunately, I'm kind of with UB on this one. I just don't have that excitement that I've had in years past. I'm not basing it all on preseason games...I just haven't been enthusiastic about this roster since we started making trades. That is because I thought when would start trading that we'd be getting rid of those players that needed to be dealt.........but that didn't happen.

Which has led me to wonder.

Was this Donnie and Larry's vision all along? This wildly athletic roster of guys with no real shooters or fundamentalists among other things? Is this what they had hoped for entering the offseason?

Or, was it a product of circumstances? Perhaps originally they had an entirely different vision in their mind, but just couldn't achieve it because the players they needed to trade/acquire were just not available in terms of making deals work. Sure, they picked up a couple nice acquisitions in the offseason, but that starting lineup still involves players who probably shouldn't be here. I just honestly don't feel as though this was the starting lineup Larry had in mind for us this year...but I could be wrong.

Unclebuck
10-17-2006, 10:48 AM
Was this Donnie and Larry's vision all along? This wildly athletic roster of guys with no real shooters or fundamentalists among other things? Is this what they had hoped for entering the offseason?

Or, was it a product of circumstances? Perhaps originally they had an entirely different vision in their mind, but just couldn't achieve it because the players they needed to trade/acquire were just not available in terms of making deals work. Sure, they picked up a couple nice acquisitions in the offseason, but that starting lineup still involves players who probably shouldn't be here. I just honestly don't feel as though this was the starting lineup Larry had in mind for us this year...but I could be wrong.



I think it was a combination of both.

Yes TPTB wanted a more athletic team. But I think they tried to trade Tinsley and Jax (and DW said they considered trading Saras) but the offers (if there were any from other teams) were so poor the Pacers felt like they were better off keeping them and hoping they would play well and increae their trade value so they could be traded either at the deadline or next summer.

That is why I posted several months ago that this rebuilding that started with the Artest trade is a two year project - I believe that because JT and Jax are still on the team.

Kestas
10-17-2006, 10:58 AM
7. I'm not sure what to think about Saras. Not good from the field, leaving his man open for jumper after jumper & trouble bringing the ball up the floor. I just don't understand what is going on with him. Has the NBA figured him out? Is he fatigued? Was he never that good to begin with? I don't know the answer but something is wrong.


hmm, but I thought you guys all understand he has hit the rookie wall ;)

seriously, I wish Saras left this God forgoten club. on paper this season looked o.k. (apart from the coach), but in reality it's shaping up to be the same as last year, but with a worse start. playing with dopehead ganstas and a coach who built you "rookie walls" last season is no fun.
on the other hand, I'm being sarcastic, of course. hope will be the last one to die. Pacers will pick it up and everything will be fine (though not sure how that might happen). I hope that if Saras will be played at PG consistently he will become a big asset to this team. his return to Europe would be a big dissapointment (in terms of basketball in general). . ah, whatever..

Bball
10-17-2006, 10:58 AM
I think it was a combination of both.

Yes TPTB wanted a more athletic team. But I think they tried to trade Tinsley and Jax (and DW said they considered trading Saras) but the offers (if there were any from other teams) were so poor the Pacers felt like they were better off keeping them and hoping they would play well and increae their trade value so they could be traded either at the deadline or next summer.

That is why I posted several months ago that this rebuilding that started with the Artest trade is a two year project - I believe that because JT and Jax are still on the team.

The problem is that SJax has put his trade value in the crapper and Tinsley's isn't much better... tho Tinsley could improve his by not being injured/sick (or pretending to be) over the course of several games.

I still don't think there really is a vision for this team. Or it's a diluted vision with everyone's ideas being in the pot (that is owners, Walsh, Bird, Carlisle, and probably a few others as well). That's why it's all a mess. There's no clear vision and direction for this team. It's a team built by committee.

-Bball

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 11:37 AM
The problem is that SJax has put his trade value in the crapper and Tinsley's isn't much better... tho Tinsley could improve his by not being injured/sick (or pretending to be) over the course of several games.

I still don't think there really is a vision for this team. Or it's a diluted vision with everyone's ideas being in the pot (that is owners, Walsh, Bird, Carlisle, and probably a few others as well). That's why it's all a mess. There's no clear vision and direction for this team. It's a team built by committee.

-Bball

It is an experiment that may or may not turn out. I plan to give it a couple months before I make a final judgment.

My instincts have told me the team is not respecting the need for shooters and physical players enough. I remember when we had some poor shooting teams in the past. We were not very good at all back then.

I am also concerned about some of our smallish players getting banged up. Al already hurt his back. Not sure if it was from guarding the bigger Utah frontline, but I doubt it helped.

Also, with this team we are relying on a number of unproven players....more than at any time in the recent past. We sent Pollard, Cro, AJ and Freddie and received Quis, Powell, Greene, Baston, Williams, White and Marshall. Maybe athletically we got an upgrade...but we lost a ton of experience. ... maybe we should add Jamison Brewer... :rolleyes:

Usually when an NBA club is relying on young players, they are promising players that were picked in the lottery. In contrast, we are relying on players from Euroleague, late first round picks and second round picks to come through for us while our other players are in a different kind of court. Not a good situation. It seems like this "idea" is merely on paper or in someone's mind...like the Saras deal. :-o

sweabs
10-17-2006, 11:51 AM
Speaking of bad shooting, here are some numbers that aren't so reassuring:

Preseason Game #1 FT% = 64.9%
Preseason Game #2 FT% = 75.5%
Preseason Game #3 FT% = 65.6%

We're not a very good shooting team in general. During those close games in the regular season, we're going to need every bit of help we can get. Making our free throws will be crucial. Since we have no real pure shooters on the team, a lot of our points are going to come from using that athleticism and driving hard to the hole. That's going to result in a lot of fouls (assuming we stick with that plan), and it does no good if we get to the line and miss our free throws.

And once again, I agree with Bball. I remember we were both calling for someone to step up and proclaim a future vision for this team quite some time ago. However, it seems as though you have 3 guys who all want different things. You can almost see the roster divided into those 3 parts (players like Sarunas and Williams were in Larry's vision, guys like Armstrong appealing to Rick, Daniels for Donnie, etc.). I don't know if those are right per se, but you get the idea.

All three of those guys have a different opinion on how the team should look, and it's as if they're trying to bunch them all together and hoping for the best.

Unclebuck
10-17-2006, 12:00 PM
I am also concerned about some of our smallish players getting banged up. Al already hurt his back. Not sure if it was from guarding the bigger Utah frontline, but I doubt it helped.




I don't see any evidence that guarding bigger people causes injuries. Al played a lot of hard minutes the past two seasons. And what I mean by that is he played a lot of minutes, over 40 minutes per in close games and he was involved in almost every play, he was counted upon to produce and be a leader, and that takes a lot out of a player - much more than guarding bigger players.

DeS
10-17-2006, 12:01 PM
Maybe Iverson guarded him too, but I specifically recall Marbury guarding (LMAO) Sarunas when Lithuania beat the US. Sarunas looked nothing short of incredible during that game. Marbury played off him early on and Sarunas got hot....and was visibly having a great time draining three's. Marbury was trying to return the favor, but was not nearly as successful shooting. I was convinced at the time that Sarunas was a combination of Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. I now truly think that game was an aberration.

Well, that game was not coincidence. Saras really was one of the major players taking his teams to the titles. We were used to him being clutch and we were confident that he will play his best game when in matters. I thought he will repeat his success, but...

Imo Pacers didn't became his club. And this is essential for a PG. He is a stranger playing the team game. Maybe the team didn't accepted him and it's hard to build confidency without team support. That's why his fire is gone (referring to Unclebuck). And I guess his fire is/was not acceptable for some players and his fire was not supported.

Otoh take into accaunt that Tinsley is also playing bad. Is this coincidence? Is this just a preseason and lack of the training together? Is this RC and his old game? We'll see, but I'm not very optimistic at the moment.

Will Galen
10-17-2006, 12:04 PM
I still don't think there really is a vision for this team. Or it's a diluted vision with everyone's ideas being in the pot (that is owners, Walsh, Bird, Carlisle, and probably a few others as well). That's why it's all a mess. There's no clear vision and direction for this team. It's a team built by committee.

-Bball

You keep posting as if vision is what this team needs. The problem is their vision conflicts with 29 other teams visions so getting what you actually envision is almost impossible. (Playing fantasy basketball wises up people that think putting together the basketball team you envision is easy.)

Then when you get something that is pretty good the wheels can still come off as we've seen. (injuries, suspensions) It takes awhile to salvage things under those conditions.

Harrington was a pretty good salvage job of the Artest situation, but we still have some more salvage work to be done before we can get back to looking at how the team actually fits together.

I think Bird has found out what Donnie already knew, citizenship counts almost as much as talent. I think that's why he passed on some point guards last draft. I'm still not exactly comfortable with him at the controls though, and I haven't figured out why.

sweabs
10-17-2006, 12:08 PM
You keep posting as if vision is what this team needs. The problem is their vision conflicts with 29 other teams visions so getting what you actually envision is almost impossible.
Tell that to Brian Colangelo.

Since86
10-17-2006, 12:14 PM
If their direction is to get 5+players with the exact same skill set, then they're succeeding. But if their direction is to actually build a ball team, then they're failing.

Long/athletic players do work, but they can't be mirror images of each other. Each player has to bring something different to the floor, and that's just not the case with the Ps.

Unclebuck
10-17-2006, 12:17 PM
If their direction is to get 5+players with the exact same skill set, then they're succeeding. But if their direction is to actually build a ball team, then they're failing.

Long/athletic players do work, but they can't be mirror images of each other. Each player has to bring something different to the floor, and that's just not the case with the Ps.


Who has the same skill set among the top 15 players. (keep in mind only the top 9 or 10 even matter) The players might not be good enough, but I don't see the "exact same skill set "

Speed
10-17-2006, 12:44 PM
I think they want all around players, not necessarily the exact same skill set.

This is a catch 22, if you have a Dale Davis who enforces, defends and rebounds then you have a role, he knows it, teammates know it, they can complement that. The pieces fit.

If you have a bunch of good all around players who all think they are better than each other thats horrible for a team, imho.

That's not to say it can't work however, if you can get very good all around players who fill in on a given night where another good all around teammate is struggling that turns into the whole being better than the sum of the parts. You need a 10 man rotation of Danny Granger, basically.

Impossible to find at the pro level, imo. You have everyone of these guys who were the stars in highschool, college and are used to being the man. They learn bad habits because their ability allows them to get away with it.

Look at the psychology of it really, most sucessful teams are 1 really amazing player and a second pretty amazing player and a bunch of guys sacrificing for the team. MJ and Pippen, Dwade and 30 something Shaq, which suprised everyone when Payton, Walker, and Jwill were willing to sacrifice for the team. The Pacers even, Reggie in the playoffs was that guy, amazing. He had Jalen (focused and in his prime) and a bunch of exceptional role players, imo. This is why SJ and Tinsley don't feel right to us, Tinsley mainly got paid and doesn't care enough, ducking now. JAX who thinks he is the Jalen to Reggie or even Reggie, really and he's not. As Granger takes only 4 shots last night and Jax shoots more than anyone else w/o 1 assist.

As a side note, I like to see numbers in JOs assist column.

So to sum it up, I think they are trying to get guys who are basketball players, not one dimensional, but the most important thing is to get guys who care completely unselfishly and what EVER philosphy will look awesome at that point.

Since86
10-17-2006, 12:47 PM
Are we looking for same positions skill set, or just overall playing?

Quis, Marshall, Lampley, White, and Williams all play the same style. The level at which they play differ, but they all are long, athletic, solid to decent ball handlers that try to get to the rim with not much of an outside shot.

If you had to guard those players, what would you do? You'd make them hit an outside jumper, and take away the driving lanes.

Granted Lampley won't be there, and because of numbers Marshall won't either, but that leaves 3 players doing the exact same thing on a 12man roster.

Combine that with you're PGs that can't hit the broadside of a barn, you've got 2 positions that can't shoot a lick. Outside of Saras, and Armstrong but he's not going to be involved that much, you've got two positions dedicated to trying to get to the front of the rim. I'd consider them all drivers, just at different levels.

Powell hasn't set himself apart from Foster.

So every one of your new guys either mirror each other, or a player already on the roster.

bulldog
10-17-2006, 12:52 PM
We need to trade Saras. I'm a fan of his, but he and the Pacers aren't a good fit. Guys that are used to playing big minutes and then get sat on the bench become cancers, I think he could become (and probably already is) a pretty negative lockerroom influence. I just see his body language, and how little he interacts with the other guys, and I just don't think he's helping us enough to warrant keeping him. If anyone of the other PGs shows they can play backup minutes regularly, he needs to be shipped.

In fact, I think the only reason he's still here is Tins' injury history. DA might make a good back-up, but he can't play starters minutes for too long.

Unclebuck
10-17-2006, 12:54 PM
Are we looking for same positions skill set, or just overall playing?

Quis, Marshall, Lampley, White, and Williams all play the same style. The level at which they play differ, but they all are long, athletic, solid to decent ball handlers that try to get to the rim with not much of an outside shot.

If you had to guard those players, what would you do? You'd make them hit an outside jumper, and take away the driving lanes.

Granted Lampley won't be there, and because of numbers Marshall won't either, but that leaves 3 players doing the exact same thing on a 12man roster.

Combine that with you're PGs that can't hit the broadside of a barn, you've got 2 positions that can't shoot a lick. Outside of Saras, and Armstrong but he's not going to be involved that much, you've got two positions dedicated to trying to get to the front of the rim. I'd consider them all drivers, just at different levels.

Powell hasn't set himself apart from Foster.

So every one of your new guys either mirror each other, or a player already on the roster.



OK, so you are just upset because none of the new guys can shoot the ball well at all. That is a legitimate gripe.

However other than that I think the players you listed are all very different and bring different things to the team, but I agree none are good shooters.

Since86
10-17-2006, 01:04 PM
OK, so you are just upset because none of the new guys can shoot the ball well at all. That is a legitimate gripe.

However other than that I think the players you listed are all very different and bring different things to the team, but I agree none are good shooters.

What different things do they bring?

Level of passing along the SG's is pretty fair, Quis probably has the upper hand, but he's not spectular at it.

From what I've seen, they all play pressure defense pretty well but pretty comparable.

So here's the list:
Passing - comparable
Dribbling - comparable
Shooting - completely lacking but comparable
Defense - comparable

The only one I'm leaving out is rebounding, which I don't feel comfortable enough to judge, but considering their height and athletic ability, I'd say it would be close.

Each of them play to a different aspect. By that I mean White is going to look to pass first, and Quis will probably look to get to the rim then pass, but none of them are going to be take over scorers (maybe Quis but we'll see) and none are going to rack up 6+ assists a game.

There's nothing else really to bring to the table from you're backcourt players. Would one outside shooter shut me up about the lack? Probably a little bit, but you need atleast two serviceable in your 5-6 backcourt players.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 01:34 PM
I don't see any evidence that guarding bigger people causes injuries. Al played a lot of hard minutes the past two seasons. And what I mean by that is he played a lot of minutes, over 40 minutes per in close games and he was involved in almost every play, he was counted upon to produce and be a leader, and that takes a lot out of a player - much more than guarding bigger players.

Maybe you're right, but time will tell. Here is an excerpt off the Pacers website on this topic:

"It's reasonable to postulate the wear-and-tear of being frequently overmatched against bigger front-line centers has contributed to the injury problems (lower back and hip) that have kept Jeff Foster (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jeff_foster/index.html) out of 40 games the past two seasons. If so, a move to the bench, which offers more favorable matchups, could relieve some of the physical demands. Don't expect his playing time to diminish much, if at all. His rebounding, defense and energy are far too important."

This indicates the wear-and-tear came not from playing minutes, but from the constant day-in day-out physical nature of playing the C position against bigger players.

aceace
10-17-2006, 05:13 PM
I'm going to compare our situation with Orlando. They had a cancer named Steve Francis, he liked to shoot alot and was not much of a team player. He thought the world of basketball revolved around him. Fortuantely, Orlando called some guy named Isiah who obliged by taking Stevie off their hands and giving them something in return, a young gifted player. Orlando turned their entire season around in 30 games and nearly made the playoffs. We need to trade our cancer... Jax, for a bag of chips. Its apparent that most on here have lost their confidence in Tinsley also. Harrison has not improved, Snap wants to hang with the boys from the hood and Saras has done nothing. So why not trade all 4 of these guys for any young talent you can get. Play the guys like Granger,Al, JO, Marshall, Powell, Greene, Armstrong, White and Williams. (I'll give Quis another chance since he's new). Let those other 4 rethink how it all went so wrong, maybe after they sit they might find some motivation, just maybe they will rethink those late night visits to the bars.

CableKC
10-17-2006, 06:28 PM
For those that have (obvious) concerns about Harrison as a Center.....is it based off of whether you think that he is "Starting" material ( which he clearly isn't )?

From most of your responses.....its pretty obvious that you probably do not have too much confidence about whether he would eventually be a decent starter. Do you think that he could turn out to be a decent 2nd or 3rd option backup Center?

Maybe that is the best that we can expect from him....nothing more then a "poor man's" Steven Hunter?

ajbry
10-17-2006, 06:39 PM
For those that have (obvious) concerns about Harrison as a Center.....is it based off of whether you think that he is "Starting" material ( which he clearly isn't )?

From most of your responses.....its pretty obvious that you probably do not have too much confidence about whether he would eventually be a decent starter. Do you think that he could turn out to be a decent 2nd or 3rd option backup Center?

Maybe that is the best that we can expect from him....nothing more then a "poor man's" Steven Hunter?

Well said.

But it is time to lessen the overhyped expectations - he simply is not starting material. He never will be.

If he turns into a poor man's Steven Hunter, that will be good enough.

Naptown_Seth
10-17-2006, 06:54 PM
However, they keep starting Marshall so it's obvious they are looking hard at him.
Good point. What makes it tougher is that he has delivered as well as any of the other borderline/deep bench players.


Peck, I agree about Harrison and I disagree with Buck about it being obvious even last year. He missed half his rookie year, so I didn't have a big problem seeing him looking green in some areas last year.

But so far this year his game looks identical. Like SarJas I see zero improvement, and that's a problem for both because the tolerance for each was that they had strong parts to their game but had to learn to refine other areas in order to earn legit minutes (into the 20-25+ range every night).

I also disagree with Buck about Harrison not scoring in the post. Just the opposite, if he gets a catch in the low block you are getting some great footwork and a decent post shot. Half the time it's a dunk even.

The DH issue is no presence of mind when it comes to rebounding, a terrible habit of defending with his hands (typically a rookie-only mistake for regular players), and of course his monster temper which looks to still be just shy of boil all the time.

Improving ANY one of those things just a moderate amount would increase his stock quite a bit. But here we are still waiting. At some point potential starts to dry up and all your left with is what you see. DH has probably 2 seasons before he hits that point. This isn't a player straight out of HS we are talking about.

Naptown_Seth
10-17-2006, 07:07 PM
You'd make them hit an outside jumper, and take away the driving lanes.
Only if you CAN take them away. The Pacers didn't get Peja without a shot back in return, or even Reggie without a shot.

These are players that can move well with and without the ball which is exactly why they have been able to get the volume of shots in the paint that they have so far this preseason, and that has come with very little of Daniels on the court and with White clearly early in his rookie learning curve.

I posted this for a Jack debate at Star today, but for the sake of the debate here, the Pacers were in the top 5 (or close IIRC) in 3PA the last 2 seasons. The problem is that they were also in the bottom 5-6 in 3P%. I brought it up in the Jack discussion elsewhere because this wasn't really Jack's fault.

2 years ago it was REGGIE (yes, Reggie) that destroyed their offense when he took the most 3PA but only put it up at 32% (while Jack shot less and hit 36%). Last year Jack was right at the team average, with players like AJ and Fred Jones pulling the average down. In fact were it not for Peja Jack would have shot above the team average for certain despite losing 2% on his shot from the year before.

Anyway, look at the 3PA per game for the team the last 2 years, right around 19!!! 19, for a team shooting around 34% from 3.

So far this pre-season the team has put up 8, 8, and 9. IMO that is a monster improvement in the style of play which in the end should also help improve their FTA per game number as well, and as a result would improve their Points Per Shot number also.


Wade and Rip are two players that excelled in scoring inside the arc despite having such terrible 3P% that no one in their right mind respected them from beyond the arc (Rip finally improved this aspect). It's a myth that the floor can't open up without spreading it to the arc. You just need good movement with and without the ball.

When Rip did his Reggie impersonation on the catch and shoot curls, they weren't for 3. There are a lot more jumpers on the court than just the deep ones.

rexnom
10-17-2006, 11:40 PM
Btw, is anyone slowly getting worried as hell that if this season goes down the drain, we don't have our first round pick?

Beowulfas
10-18-2006, 03:08 AM
Never saw that on board - in LT main newspaper there is an information, that Saras started the game, because Tinsley was late in the morning practice...
Nice attitude continues...

Hicks
10-18-2006, 06:56 AM
Btw, is anyone slowly getting worried as hell that if this season goes down the drain, we don't have our first round pick?

I think it's either loterry protected or top 10 protected. I think it's loterry, but I'm not sure.

Hicks
10-18-2006, 06:57 AM
Never saw that on board - in LT main newspaper there is an information, that Saras started the game, because Tinsley was late in the morning practice...
Nice attitude continues...

That's just ignorant. He didn't just choose to be late, he had personal issues he was apparently dealing with in New York City (his home town).

Beowulfas
10-18-2006, 11:38 AM
That's just ignorant. He didn't just choose to be late, he had personal issues he was apparently dealing with in New York City (his home town).

Just cited daily newspaper.
Tinsley was late to the morning pratice, he was benched for this.

If he arranged everything with team management, kind of weird, why to bench him.

McKeyFan
10-18-2006, 11:45 AM
That's just ignorant. He didn't just choose to be late, he had personal issues he was apparently dealing with in New York City (his home town).

True.

However:

1. Often, "personal issues" is a phrase used by management to cover up some kind of other action that may be irresponsible.

2. Like Jackson, Tinsley has a reputation, a character, if you will. We debated on this board for a week whether Jax's character likely helped escalate the events at Club Rio. Turns out it did. Is Tinsley's character (missing games due to feaux injuries, attitude problems, etc.) behind this latest missed practice? We probably won't find out, but it is certainly a possibility. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt unless we hear different, but I can see how someone would get suspicious.

Hicks
10-18-2006, 11:52 AM
I know with this team we can't always take "personal issues" at face value, but it seems to be the case here that he had family things to address in NYC (or something like that), and the club policy (no exceptions) is that if you miss the morning practice/shootaround, you don't start.