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Evan_The_Dude
10-16-2006, 10:55 PM
Larry Bird said early in the off season that two of their goals were to create a team that was fun to watch, and to have players that the fans like. You can make an argument that so far he may have accomplished goal number one. This is only the preseason and the Pacers are 1-2. Despite their record they have shown that they are a much quicker team that can run up and down the floor. They’ve also shown the ability to create turnovers on the defensive end, something they weren’t too good at last season.

It’s only the preseason, so it’s a bit unfair to look down on this team and its 1-2 record. However, it’s not unfair to overlook the fact that the other part of Bird’s promise has not been kept. It’s become obvious in the first three meaningless preseason games that Stephen Jackson isn’t exactly a player the fans like, and now after the strip club incident, it’s going to be hard for him get rid of the guy the fans don’t like.

There’s only three ways it can happen. 1.) We take a slightly unfair trade that gives us a player that’s overpaid in return. 2.) We bench him with pay for as long as necessary until we can move him via trade. 3.) We release him from his contract once he is convicted and given jail time. There’s also the option of negotiating a buy-out of his contract.

This might be a more frustrating situation for the fans than last years Artest trade saga. At least with the Artest situation you had a player that nobody questioned on the court, had all the talent in the world, but had just worn out his welcome, and lost all the trust of the people in Indiana. With Jackson, you have a guy who’s on-court decisions are questioned, whines to officials, and is now facing the possibility of doing some jail time for his troubles off the court.

I strongly believe Jackson’s every intention coming in was to show everybody just how good of a guy he can be. He wanted to erase the past and work on having a successful and bright future in Indiana. One bad decision at a strip club blew any chance he had at redemption.

Now the question is, what the heck do Bird, Walsh, Carlisle & Co. do to get this guy out of town? The only way I see it happening is via trade. Who’s dumb enough to take on Jackson and his problems you ask? Well, who knows.

First, this is no situation where Bird and Co. can hold off for maximum value in return. It just won’t happen here. If you want to find a positive in the situation, we wouldn’t be getting rid of Jackson for nothing no matter what. Why? Because the guy we traded to get him is back on the roster again. Having a guy you traded a few seasons ago back on your roster, in addition to the guy you got in return for him, can only be seen as a positive.

The previous paragraph was a setup for the following. What we get in return for Jackson will be quite lopsided. We might have to take on a player that might be a risk in return. Or we might take on a guy that’s overpaid. I did a search for teams that might have somebody they’d probably like to move, that could also benefit from a having a guy with the toughness of a Stephen Jackson on their team. Ready? Here’s what I came up with:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1479/jackofalltradesjc6.jpg

This trade makes even more sense with the news that the Knicks’ Jared Jeffries is out with a broken wrist. It’s a bad contract for the Pacers to take, but at least it gives us a player that would be hard for fans to dislike. He’d also give the Pacers a decent threat from the outside – more threatening than Jackson [no pun intended].

The Knicks can benefit from Jackson’s toughness on the court combined with his durability. That would be something they haven’t had much of since John Starks. His attitude might actually bring out the best in guys like Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis. He might actually have a long shot at becoming a team leader there… Did I just say that?

Regardless of that happens, something needs to be done. I’m a Stephen Jackson fan, and I want to see him succeed, but it’s blatantly obvious that it won’t happen here. It’s time to close this chapter and start working those phones before the season gets started. At this point, the team is much better off without him.

Anthem
10-16-2006, 11:02 PM
I think a lot of people wish we could just cut ties with Jackson right now. That's easier said than done, though. If we were to go into a trade with the idea in mind that we wouldn't get equal value back, what would you be willing to give up?

Here's a trade I would do:

Sarunas Jasikevicius, Jeff Foster, and Stephen Jackson for Kyle Lowry, Eddie Jones, and a future first-round draft pick.

Think Memphis would go for that?

Anthem
10-16-2006, 11:04 PM
Our lineup would then be:

JO / Harrison / Powell
Harrington / Baston / Williams
Granger / White / Marshall
Daniels / E.Jones
Tinsley / Armstrong / Greene / Lowry

Thoughts?

Destined4Greatness
10-16-2006, 11:09 PM
If we are going to start talking about Promises Bird has to keep lets not forget the "If JO can't handle the leadership role this year we will have to find somebody else" and please if Fans got to dictate who a team kept and got rid of the Pacers would have drafted Alford and remained a pathetic excuse for a pro team.

rexnom
10-16-2006, 11:11 PM
At this point, we'd be lucky to get a bag of chips for Jack. No, seriously. I hear Chicago might offer us some fritos, though.

Evan_The_Dude
10-16-2006, 11:16 PM
If we are going to start talking about Promises Bird has to keep lets not forget the "If JO can't handle the leadership role this year we will have to find somebody else"

I think that's part of the reason why we brought DA to the team. He didn't say he was going to trade JO. He just said he'd have to find somebody else. I wouldn't say that's a broken promise.


and please if Fans got to dictate who a team kept and got rid of the Pacers would have drafted Alford and remained a pathetic excuse for a pro team.

This is a different situation. It's not like Jackson hasn't had the chance to play and prove himself. The fans can speak by booing, and if TPTB don't get the point there, they'll get it by the fans showing them what the seats look like when nobody is sitting in them. Looks like step #2 has already begun.

Aw Heck
10-16-2006, 11:24 PM
At this point, we'd be lucky to get a bag of chips for Jack. No, seriously. I hear Chicago might offer us some fritos, though.
If Chicago makes it the chili-flavored fritos, I would have to seriously consider it.

I think Jack's current legal troubles are going to scare a lot of teams off. So if Jack is going to be moved off this team through trade, it won't be until he's done in court (which might take a while).

You're right, though. If we do move Jack, we're going to probably take on a player with a bad contract.

If you've resigned yourself to the fact that you need to get rid of Jack no matter what, you could probably just waive him. Maybe some team will take a chance, pick him up off waivers, and help pay for the rest of his contract.

But if we've learned anything about Donnie Walsh over the years, it's that he's very patient. He's probably going to wait until all the legal stuff is over, then make his move.

Destined4Greatness
10-16-2006, 11:25 PM
Oh please its inhernetly the same thing, you can not let a bunch of fans dictate the decisions your franchise makes. They are amateurs the guys that pcik our players and decide the moves are professionals. They know what goes on in the lockerroom they know who likes who, they know who works hardest in the practice. All these things we don't really know well enough to take into account.

JayRedd
10-16-2006, 11:31 PM
I think Jack's current legal troubles are going to scare a lot of teams off.

The fact that he has a long-term contract and isn't very good probably won't help either.

Evan_The_Dude
10-16-2006, 11:37 PM
Oh please its inhernetly the same thing, you can not let a bunch of fans dictate the decisions your franchise makes. They are amateurs the guys that pcik our players and decide the moves are professionals. They know what goes on in the lockerroom they know who likes who, they know who works hardest in the practice. All these things we don't really know well enough to take into account.

It's beyond what goes on behind the scenes now. The fans don't know what goes on behind the scenes because they don't pay to see what goes on behind the scenes. They pay to see the game played. The majority of them don't like Jackson, and I'd bet there's plenty of them that have decided not to get tickets to games because this latest Jackson incident is reminding them of the same 'ol Indiana Pacers they've been used to for the last 3 seasons.

TPTB can ignore the fans all they want, but the Simons will eventually push for Jackson to be removed from the team when they see attendance numbers down. Moving Jackson is more of a business decision than a personel decision. They're going to have to do it. They really can't afford not to.

They can either keep Jackson and lose money, or do SOMETHING with him and get the fans excited about the team again. I know you back Jack, and I mentioned before that I back Jackson too, but if you look at this from a business standpoint, it's pretty easy to understand why doing something to keep Jackson off the roster is the best thing they can do for themselves right now. Allowing him to keep playing is going to hurt them big time.

Aw Heck
10-16-2006, 11:49 PM
It's definitely the type of trade I would expect. I'm not sure if Memphis would do it though. After their experience with Bonzi, I don't know if they'd want to take on Jack. If they did agree to it, I think you'd have to take Lowry and/or the future first out of the trade for them to do it.

Other than Jack though, I think they'd be interested in Saras and Foster.

If the trade happened, I'd be OK with it.

Lord Helmet
10-16-2006, 11:52 PM
At this point, I'd have no problem releasing Jackson.

I realize he's a decent player, and I realize he's a good guy, but as with the Artest experiement, I'm ready for the Stephen Jackson chapter to end......

avoidingtheclowns
10-17-2006, 12:02 AM
why would the grizzlies make this trade? they need a frontline player with dominant offensive skills. last time i checked foster's lack of offensive prowess is one of the main reasons pacer fans want to trade him.

also, i think asking for lowry is too much. how about dahntay jones (isn't he related to al somehow?)

JO / Harrison / Powell
Harrington / Baston / Williams
Granger / White / Marshall
Daniels / E.Jones / D.Jones
Tinsley / Armstrong / Greene

Anthem
10-17-2006, 12:34 AM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=487235

Naptown_Seth
10-17-2006, 12:45 AM
Oh please its inhernetly the same thing, you can not let a bunch of fans dictate the decisions your franchise makes.
I agree. Just listen to every NBA and NFL draft EVER. Fans screw up way more often than any decent GM or owner, they just don't hold themselves accountable.

Most of the fans booing Jack right now were ripping on the AJ for Armstrong trade too...now they look like idiots (IMO) with what throw-ins Powell and Marshall have brought to camp.


What empty seats look like? Really? So you are telling me that fans hate Jack so much that they will not support or come watch Granger and Harrington? Yeah, get back to me on that.

Team wins they come...even if Jack stinks up the joint every night. If the team wins with Jack going 1-15 every single night fans will still show up. Why? Because it means that guys like JO, Granger, Al, etc are doing enough to win, and therefore enough to want to come watch. No one skipped Bulls games because Bill Wennington went 2-10 or because Rodman had a bad rep...because Jordan was the show.

And if Jack goes 10-15 every night and the team loses the fans won't come and will still call in and say things like "sure he's 60% from the field, but I still hate him for the Rio thing". He could save cats from trees and help grannies cross the street too, but if the team loses the fans will stay away.


If TPTB thinks that Jack is a problem on the court or with the team, then I assume they will move him. If they think he helps the situation then they keep him. You don't listen to the most fickle fanbase in all major sports (excluding Atlanta fans who just never show up no matter what).


I'm not even saying keep Jack, I'm just saying that trading him because of booing is stupid. Trade a guy because it makes the team better. Ron had to go because his attitude was extremely disruptive in the locker room and on the court at times (he admitted to not even giving his all due to his low paycheck in a recent interview) and it was clear that he intended to keep doing things like asking for time off (got a suspension from Rick) or asking to be traded.

At least Jack appears (if we trust Larry and Rick) to be putting in the effort and trying to earn the paycheck.

Bball
10-17-2006, 01:35 AM
What empty seats look like? Really? So you are telling me that fans hate Jack so much that they will not support or come watch Granger and Harrington? Yeah, get back to me on that.



I think that is what he's telling you and I think he might be right.

This isn't a normal situation and it's been building. Sjax had already lost the fans to the point many wondered how the team could bring him back and what they could do to rehab his image. Well, with his image being on life support and part of the Pacers' new marketing campaign, he blew the whole thing up. He (and his compadres) made the campaign into a joke. So much so that they had to pull it because the whole campaign looked blatantly silly.

It's turned into a caustic, cancerous situation. Likely, a vicious cycle. Someone will tell me that winning cures all, but it's hard to imagine much winning with a player creating this many distractions (thru his own actions AND thru the fans' actions now). It's not like Sjax is that good that he can make the fans forget and rise above it all. His game is filled with bad decisions and it's hard to see fans accepting the bad with the good at this point.

Things are too raw right now and it has the potential to get ugly.

-Bball

Anthem
10-17-2006, 02:32 AM
Things are too raw right now and it has the potential to get ugly.

-Bball
Agreed. And yet, I can't imagine a team trading for Jack while the felony charge is still outstanding. How long before the whole thing goes to trial? A year?

Shack80
10-17-2006, 03:50 AM
At this point, I'd have no problem releasing Jackson.

I realize he's a decent player, and I realize he's a good guy, but as with the Artest experiement, I'm ready for the Stephen Jackson chapter to end......

:iagree:

Bball
10-17-2006, 04:02 AM
Agreed. And yet, I can't imagine a team trading for Jack while the felony charge is still outstanding. How long before the whole thing goes to trial? A year?

It's fairly common to waive your right to a speedy trial so it could drag on. OTOH, if he doesn't waive his right to a speedy trial I was thinking that the state had 90 days to bring it to trial. I could be wrong.

But the questions probably are: "What is the prosecutor offering?" "What is Sjax willing to accept?" and "What does Michigan have to say about all this in regards to probation?"

The probation question probably makes this a bit stickier than it otherwise would be to plea bargain.

I'm not sure I'd look for any movement until after the elections.

-Bball

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 06:13 AM
If we are going to start talking about Promises Bird has to keep lets not forget the "If JO can't handle the leadership role this year we will have to find somebody else" and please if Fans got to dictate who a team kept and got rid of the Pacers would have drafted Alford and remained a pathetic excuse for a pro team.

JO couldn't handle it. That's why we brought in Al and Armstrong.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 06:27 AM
I agree. Just listen to every NBA and NFL draft EVER. Fans screw up way more often than any decent GM or owner, they just don't hold themselves accountable.

Most of the fans booing Jack right now were ripping on the AJ for Armstrong trade too...now they look like idiots (IMO) with what throw-ins Powell and Marshall have brought to camp.


I think you are giving TPTB too much credit. They are supposed to be professionals and certainly have more information than the average fan.

However, look objectively at performance and consider where this team is compared to 6 years ago. To be sure, there have been more mistakes than correct decisions during that time period. Otherwise, we would not be in the mess we are now. If this were a normal company, some of the executives would be getting cut loose.

Evan_The_Dude
10-17-2006, 09:32 AM
I think that is what he's telling you and I think he might be right.

This isn't a normal situation and it's been building. Sjax had already lost the fans to the point many wondered how the team could bring him back and what they could do to rehab his image. Well, with his image being on life support and part of the Pacers' new marketing campaign, he blew the whole thing up. He (and his compadres) made the campaign into a joke. So much so that they had to pull it because the whole campaign looked blatantly silly.

It's turned into a caustic, cancerous situation. Likely, a vicious cycle. Someone will tell me that winning cures all, but it's hard to imagine much winning with a player creating this many distractions (thru his own actions AND thru the fans' actions now). It's not like Sjax is that good that he can make the fans forget and rise above it all. His game is filled with bad decisions and it's hard to see fans accepting the bad with the good at this point.

Things are too raw right now and it has the potential to get ugly.

-Bball


Exactly. In fact many fans didn't bother to show up for last seasons playoffs. The ones that did got their point across by booing Jackson after every bad decision he made. Jackson is the one guy on this team that the majority of the fans want gone. Second would be Tinsley, but I think the majority of the fans can deal with him being on the team. It's not like Tinsley makes a lot of bad decisions, he just has missed a lot of time due to injuries and illnesses.

They need SJax to go in order to eliminate the cloud over the team right now.

bulldog
10-17-2006, 10:02 AM
Most of the fans booing Jack right now were ripping on the AJ for Armstrong trade too...now they look like idiots (IMO) with what throw-ins Powell and Marshall have brought to camp.


So you're ready to declare victory on that one? As much as Powell and Marshall have brought to camp, they still haven't actually brought anything to a real game. I like their energy and some of their skills, but jeez, right now all I see is two guys that in a few years might crack our playoff rotation.

Meanwhile our PG spot is a mess and the guy that bailed us out the last few years is in Texas.

Don't know if I agree with you on this man. At the very least, you'll have to admit that it's a "we'll see" situation.



What empty seats look like? Really? So you are telling me that fans hate Jack so much that they will not support or come watch Granger and Harrington? Yeah, get back to me on that.

Remember, a lot of people don't go to games just 'cause its fun to watch. Some take their kids, for example, and right now I'm sure families are staying home because they don't want their kids seeing some of these guys as role models. Corporate types, meanwhile, won't want their company associated with the stereotypes the Pacers are facing. I don't necessarily want to skewer Jackson myself, but there's a lot of negativity out there right now. I think there will be a hit in attendance unless Jax is moved.

FrenchConnection
10-17-2006, 10:34 AM
We are discussing preseason ticket sales here, people. I for one never go to preseason games. They cost the same as regular season games and I will not pay money to see Sean Lampley play.

People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material. So, does everyone agree that attendance would go UP if the team traded for a bunch of "milk drinkers" with marginal talent? Because I disagree with you there. Winning sells tickets. People stayed away last year because the team was bad. Remember, Atlanta and Charlotte have a lot of good character guys that are fun to watch but the seats are empty. Winning solves all problems.

denyfizle
10-17-2006, 10:51 AM
Here's hoping Artest vouches and convinces Kings management to take Jackson and maybe we could package him in a trade that sends us Kevin Martin or Garcia in return. But of course, why would the Kings want to reunite the main culprits of one of the most disgusting sports incident in history? I really like that Martin kid though. And we need a shooter.

Putnam
10-17-2006, 10:57 AM
People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material.

That's Philadelphia. This is Indy. Does anybody think there's no difference?



So, does everyone agree that attendance would go UP if the team traded for a bunch of "milk drinkers" with marginal talent?

Why can't we discuss a team of young, vigorous, serious athletes with impeccable private lives who are competitive? Such players exist, don't they? We should trade for them. The choice is not between talented thugs and inept "milk drinkers." What we have on our team is a thug of modest talent, and that is a combination no one one with their eyes open should defend.

As far as your premise that winning sells tickets, you're probably right in at least 5 cases out of 10. But I'm not that way myself. I'm sitting here with my hand on my wallet three blocks from Conseco, waiting for the news that convinces me the Pacers have purged the problem.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 10:59 AM
We are discussing preseason ticket sales here, people. I for one never go to preseason games. They cost the same as regular season games and I will not pay money to see Sean Lampley play.

People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material. So, does everyone agree that attendance would go UP if the team traded for a bunch of "milk drinkers" with marginal talent? Because I disagree with you there. Winning sells tickets. People stayed away last year because the team was bad. Remember, Atlanta and Charlotte have a lot of good character guys that are fun to watch but the seats are empty. Winning solves all problems.

Winning would solve problems, but a team of talented thugs is not the answer...if it were, Portland would have 5 championships in the last 10 years.

With all due respect, I think the Pacers can do better than that...and have done better in the past. I would rather watch bad players than marginally good players who act like some of our players. At least we would have some hope to rebuild the franchise with lottery picks. Instead, we are locked into long term contracts with mediocre players who embarrass the franchise.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 11:03 AM
Here's hoping Artest vouches and convinces Kings management to take Jackson and maybe we could package him in a trade that sends us Kevin Martin or Garcia in return. But of course, why would the Kings want to reunite the main culprits of one of the most disgusting sports incident in history? I really like that Martin kid though. And we need a shooter.

Sac is interested in moving Miller. How about Jack and Foster for Miller plus filler? They love Artest in Sac. Why not a little more? Also, Foster loves Ron Ron.

Evan_The_Dude
10-17-2006, 11:20 AM
I hate the use of the word "Thug". I think it's a disgusting way to describe a person and I don't feel it's a fair description of Jackson in any way, shape or form. It's a very offending word.


We are discussing preseason ticket sales here, people. I for one never go to preseason games. They cost the same as regular season games and I will not pay money to see Sean Lampley play.

People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material. So, does everyone agree that attendance would go UP if the team traded for a bunch of "milk drinkers" with marginal talent? Because I disagree with you there. Winning sells tickets. People stayed away last year because the team was bad. Remember, Atlanta and Charlotte have a lot of good character guys that are fun to watch but the seats are empty. Winning solves all problems.

Sure winning solves all problems in most cases, but this situation is different. We could go 10-0 to start the season and it probably wouldn't lead to sell outs. Fans would slowly start filling seats, but it would take a long time. We'd likely have to maintain the best record in the Eastern Conference through at least the All-Star break with Jackson on our roster in order to prove anything to the fans. That's approximately 22 home games that we have to deal with below average attendance numbers to try to prove something to the fans. Twenty-two games of low ticket sales. Twenty-two games of low concession sales. Twenty-two games of below average parking income for the downtown area. All because we're reluctant to remove a guy that fans obviously don't like off our roster.

I'm not going to bother going into the mathematic equations to show exactly how much money they're losing out on by keeping this guy around. This isn't about preseason ticket sales. They were booing him in last years PLAYOFFS! I WAS THERE! We weren't the best team in the league, but we were in the playoffs for cryin out loud! Yet, we still couldn't fill the seats even though we had a good chance at advancing to the second round. It's obvious that in our case, winning didn't solve a damn thing.

Getting Jackson off the roster will lighten the mood among the fans and recapture interest in the team. At the very least if they can put a trouble free, fun to watch team on the floor that is giving their every effort to win, yet falls a bit short, I can be satisfied with the fact that we're moving in a positive direction and trying to put a team together that can be a strong competitor in the upcoming years. Right now, there's one move holding them back from letting the sun shine through the cloud.

heywoode
10-17-2006, 11:35 AM
I hate the use of the word "Thug". I think it's a disgusting way to describe a person and I don't feel it's a fair description of Jackson in any way, shape or form. It's a very offending word.


<table id="wn"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">Noun</td><td valign="top">1.</td><td>http://img.tfd.com/dict/09/68744-thug.gifthug - an aggressive and violent young criminal hood (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hood), hoodlum (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hoodlum), punk (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/punk), strong-armer (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/strong-armer), toughie (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/toughie), goon (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goon), tough (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tough)
criminal (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/criminal), crook (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crook), felon (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/felon), malefactor (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/malefactor), outlaw (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outlaw) - someone who has committed (or been legally convicted of) a crime
</td></tr></tbody></table>

Sounds like the description fits to me. I'm sorry if it is an offensive word for you, but when someone's actions define who they are, they ought to be prepared to be labeled as such. This isn't directed AT you, but more TO you. While you are offended by the use of the word, I'm offended by the actions of the individual that causes him to be referred to that way. I've also grown tired of people being offended and upset by the use of that word. It gets thrown around alot when it isn't really needed, but not in this case.

I'm fine with the word 'thug' being used to describe him. He may be all nicey-nice in front of the camera or most of the time. That is all well and good.

It's how his demeanor is when he is confronted with conflict or an undesireable set of circumstances that concern me. In that type of situation, I've seen no indication, EVER, that he has the ability to be anything but a thug.

Again, sorry if this post offends you Ev, but I had to state my two cents about how fair or unfair it is to label someone according to their actions.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 11:44 AM
Jack is a card carrying member of the Bloods...so, yes he is a thug. No offense, just facts. Here are his own statements:

"I was out there bad, yo," the 27-year-old says, both disbelief and regret transparent in his voice.



He says he routinely skipped class as a high school sophomore and junior, preferring project hallways to those of Lincoln High. He says there were nights he didn't return home, that his single mother, Judy Jackson, had to go out searching for him. Stephen Jackson ignored a warning sign right in front him – his father, George Aldridge, just recently released after serving 10 years in prison for "robbery, drugs, all kinds of stuff," his son says.



"I'd be lying to you if I told you I didn't take that route. "Everybody's selling drugs and everybody's hanging out," says Jackson, who said his older brother, Donald Buckner, was beaten to death when Jackson was 15. About that time, until he left for prep powerhouse Oak Hill Academy in Virginia, where he would become a McDonald's All-American, Jackson found the allure of breaking the law too much to ignore, as Jay-Z once rhymed.



Jackson: "It was a fad. I damn sure wasn't thinking about getting no job. I thought that was the easy way out." He says he sold "a little bit of everything."



He keeps a red bandanna hanging outside his locker.



"You know what that is," he says.



Bloods. When he wasn't running hoops, Jackson used to run with the local street gang. He says he represented the "3200 Block, Three-two-double-oh." On the inside of his left forearm, he has a tattoo of a man firing an automatic weapon. He makes it clear he doesn't "bang" anymore (he is, after all, a father of five), but he still represents his roots, only in a different fashion, emphasis on fashion. A shirt with a red collar, a red Pacers cap.



"I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.



"I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."

Putnam
10-17-2006, 12:04 PM
Since I brought up the word "thug" first in this thread, and Ev was offended by it....


I hate the use of the word "Thug". I think it's a disgusting way to describe a person and I don't feel it's a fair description of Jackson in any way, shape or form. It's a very offending word.

No offense intended to you. But the word fits. I don't understand why it is a "disgusting way to describe a person." The original Thuggees were persons, and the sense of the word has expanded to describe people who share characteristics with the thuggees, even if they don't belong to the cult of Kali. A person is a thug if they resort to violence at slight provocation and if their behavior is judged to be criminal. I'll stand by the responses of BlueNGold and heywoode. And I applaud vigorously to the rest of your post:



Getting Jackson off the roster will lighten the mood among the fans and recapture interest in the team. At the very least if they can put a trouble free, fun to watch team on the floor that is giving their every effort to win, yet falls a bit short, I can be satisfied with the fact that we're moving in a positive direction and trying to put a team together that can be a strong competitor in the upcoming years. Right now, there's one move holding them back from letting the sun shine through the cloud.

Evan_The_Dude
10-17-2006, 12:26 PM
Jack is a card carrying member of the Bloods...so, yes he is a thug. No offense, just facts. Here are his own statements:

"I was out there bad, yo," the 27-year-old says, both disbelief and regret transparent in his voice.



He says he routinely skipped class as a high school sophomore and junior, preferring project hallways to those of Lincoln High. He says there were nights he didn't return home, that his single mother, Judy Jackson, had to go out searching for him. Stephen Jackson ignored a warning sign right in front him – his father, George Aldridge, just recently released after serving 10 years in prison for "robbery, drugs, all kinds of stuff," his son says.



"I'd be lying to you if I told you I didn't take that route. "Everybody's selling drugs and everybody's hanging out," says Jackson, who said his older brother, Donald Buckner, was beaten to death when Jackson was 15. About that time, until he left for prep powerhouse Oak Hill Academy in Virginia, where he would become a McDonald's All-American, Jackson found the allure of breaking the law too much to ignore, as Jay-Z once rhymed.



Jackson: "It was a fad. I damn sure wasn't thinking about getting no job. I thought that was the easy way out." He says he sold "a little bit of everything."



He keeps a red bandanna hanging outside his locker.



"You know what that is," he says.



Bloods. When he wasn't running hoops, Jackson used to run with the local street gang. He says he represented the "3200 Block, Three-two-double-oh." On the inside of his left forearm, he has a tattoo of a man firing an automatic weapon. He makes it clear he doesn't "bang" anymore (he is, after all, a father of five), but he still represents his roots, only in a different fashion, emphasis on fashion. A shirt with a red collar, a red Pacers cap.



"I was just raised like that," he says. "All my friends. I don't trip on nobody with no blue rag, but at the same time, it's what I represent. It's what I've represented since I was 9 years old. All my friends in my neighborhood. It was just inherited. I ain't banging, though.



"I got in a couple of scruffs over it," he recalls. "It's nothing I'm embarrassed about. It just happened growing up. Walking outside, everybody got on red, I can't walk outside in blue."


The bold says it all. So he previously lived a thuggish lifestyle. He can't help how he was raised. If you're raised by a mother and father that both attended Harvard and make incomes of over $200k a piece, it's going to rub off on their children. Same goes for a kid with a drug dealing Father in prison, raised in a neighborhood where everybody either wears red or blue, where everybody need's to be on alert or get killed... It rubs off on them. You can take the child out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the child.

Since86
10-17-2006, 12:26 PM
People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material. So, does everyone agree that attendance would go UP if the team traded for a bunch of "milk drinkers" with marginal talent? Because I disagree with you there. Winning sells tickets. People stayed away last year because the team was bad. Remember, Atlanta and Charlotte have a lot of good character guys that are fun to watch but the seats are empty. Winning solves all problems.

I honestly can't believe you're comparing Philly to Indianapolis. If you think AI's practice speech would of went over here, you're plain nuts.

Your fanbase HAS to have some link with the team, or you're not going to get any support. The link between Indy and the Ps is starting to crumble. Booing is the first option. Not coming is the next.

Since86
10-17-2006, 12:33 PM
The bold says it all. So he previously lived a thuggish lifestyle. He can't help how he was raised. If you're raised by a mother and father that both attended Harvard and make incomes of over $200k a piece, it's going to rub off on their children. Same goes for a kid with a drug dealing Father in prison, raised in a neighborhood where everybody either wears red or blue, where everybody need's to be on alert or get killed... It rubs off on them. You can take the child out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the child.

He still lives that lifestyle.

He keeps a freaking red bandana in his locker to keep that part of his life close to him at all times. He was wearing all red during the fight. He said he still hangs out with the same friends. Sorry, but he's the same man, just doesn't need to hustle anymore.

There have been a lot of players raised in the ghetto, that don't act like fools everytime they get the opportunity.

Shack80
10-17-2006, 12:46 PM
Well said Heywoode. I don't care if it offends him. He offends me with his actions that harm the team I care about. It offends me that players like him have the whole world thinking the pacers are a team of thugs.

BlueNGold
10-17-2006, 01:04 PM
The bold says it all. So he previously lived a thuggish lifestyle. He can't help how he was raised. If you're raised by a mother and father that both attended Harvard and make incomes of over $200k a piece, it's going to rub off on their children. Same goes for a kid with a drug dealing Father in prison, raised in a neighborhood where everybody either wears red or blue, where everybody need's to be on alert or get killed... It rubs off on them. You can take the child out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the child.

He still wears the colors bro. He is supporting people who kill. This is not some video game. He has not turned away from that mindset and it shows in his actions. BTW, no criminal admits they are still committing crimes. A criminal denies they are guilty and continue committing crimes as Jack has done. I will judge him by his actions, not his words at this point.

...and you're right. You can't get the ghetto our of that child, so we better get that child out of Conseco Fieldhouse.

JayRedd
10-17-2006, 01:05 PM
What empty seats look like? Really? So you are telling me that fans hate Jack so much that they will not support or come watch Granger and Harrington? Yeah, get back to me on that.

Team wins they come...even if Jack stinks up the joint every night. If the team wins with Jack going 1-15 every single night fans will still show up. Why? Because it means that guys like JO, Granger, Al, etc are doing enough to win, and therefore enough to want to come watch.

I think you're right. Winning would cure a lot of this.

But have you seen our early season schedule? It's ******* brutal. We have 18 of our 32 games before the New Year on the road, which regardless of who you play is always tough to get Ws. Plus, we have NJ, CLE, DET, HOU and ORL as five of our 14 home games. All those are tough wins as well.

We have a truckload of new players. I'm not trying to say we won't have a good season. But I'm just trying to take a realistic look at the first 30 games of the year. And from what I see, I really don't expect us to be much over .500 on Christmas Day regardless of how well the team starts to come together.

I mean, we have a stretch in late Nov where we go back-to-back nights home against MIL, then away in ORL, then take a day off before CLE comes to Conseco, and we then get on a plane the next day for a six-game West Coast swing, which rarely works out well for Eastern Conference teams.

I mean damn....we have 13 of our first 19 on the road. I think it's safe to say we're not gonna set the world on fire out of the gates.

So when Thanksgiving and Christmas come around and all the casual fans are seeing their families more and talking about sports a lot more and we're sitting (hopefully) around .500, what do you think the overwheming opinion is going to be?

"You seen them Pacers?"
"I don't even wanna talk about those guys."
"Yeah...tough season. Lebron's coming to town soon though. You wanna go?
"What? No, thanks. Put it back on the Colts game. Get these gangsters off my TV."

RamBo_Lamar
10-17-2006, 02:01 PM
I've remained fairly nuetral when it comes to Jack until now. Have never seen
him as being a really great player, but not really bad either - somewhere
middle of the pack.

His recent comments trying to justify his knuckleheadedness have now tipped
my scale against him. It's becoming increasingly clear that this is a person
who cannot be told what is right and wrong, does not care what is right and
wrong, and is going to do whatever he thinks is neccessary come "hell or
high water", irregardless of whether it is wrong or not - consequences be
damned.

Well, I beleive odds are he will probably get out of most of, if not all, his
legal troubles with the only consequences being a slightly depleted bank
account. There is still though a real possibility that he will serve a little
(very little) time behind bars.

Until these legal troubles are behind him, I doubt any other team is going
to touch him with a 10 foot pole, even if they could get him for nothing.
Just too many unknowns as to what his legal disposition is going to be,
combined with he is not that great of an overall player, and that it seems
he has character issues that he has no interest in reforming.

He knows he has the Pacers bent over a barrel, and so do the Pacers.
This is turning into another hostage situation similar to what Artest had
the Pacers in, except for Jack isn't nearly as tradable.

I hate to say this, but I'm starting to hope he does get a felony conviction
just so the Pacers can void his contract and cut him loose. Then he can
go bend over whoever else will have him, so long as it's not here.

And Pacers Top Brass, it is admirable that you've been publically standing
behind your player, but behind closed doors, you know what needs to be
done if the opportunity presents itself. I, for one, am counting on you
TPTB to not be "wishy-washy", and be strong and to do what is right
when that time comes (if it comes).

CableKC
10-17-2006, 02:14 PM
Regardless of whether you are a supporter or hater.....let's face some facts here:

1 ) SJax has a 3 to 4 year long term contract that no GM is gonna want
2 ) SJax...over this last offseason.....has been a PR Nightmare...same thing...no GM is gonna want that
3 ) I don't think that TPTB are the type to simply "eat" his contract and cut him....unless there is a legit Legal clause in his contract ( which I doubt ) that would allow them to get out of paying the majority of his contract.
4 ) You guys know more then I do....but TPTB will likely approach SJax the same way they do for any of their players.....they will overvalue him ( despite his negative PR value ) and therefore would not just take on another team's headache player just to get rid of a player that is "booed".

These are all "strikes" against figuring out a way to move SJax.

I would hope that "winning" will make fans forget all the negative PR that this has caused....but so far....in the 3 preseason games ( yes...even if its just Preseason )...I have not been too optimistic about our chances of "winning" games that will hopefully "win back fans".

JayRedd
10-17-2006, 02:42 PM
People still pay for tickets in Philly when the Sixers are winning, and AI is not exactly role model material.

People in Philly also booed Michael Irvin as he was being carted off the field with a broken neck.

I've never even been to Indiana, but I'm pretty sure all you guys know better than the culture and values of your state has a lot to do with this.

New York, Philly, LA...those are places that can forgive and forget (or ignore) guys like Spreewell, Kobe and AI a lot easier.